For many years, Hami-O raid enhancements were the best in game. It wasn't till recently that you could get equitable enhancements through the new crafting system. By then, I was long bored with the game. I'm still waiting for an MMO that ignores raiders. Bioware is chicken shit, because they are still going to offer raiding content and I guarantee you they get exclusive content and rewards and preferential end game treatment.
As they should.
If you can't be bothered to put in the effort, don't expect to get the same.
Its is like asking for an MMORPG with no levelling system in it and no equipment and no skills, in fact everyone should just be an amorphous blob, unable to move, in a pitch black room with nothing in it!!!
Originally posted by Dafong I pointed out that the skill level isn't what makes raiding hard, it is being there at a particular time, for a set period of time and the effort it takes to get to the level of a raider.
That stuff is trivial. You decide on a time that is good for your raid leadership and just weed out all the players who cannot commit to those times. Then you weed out the people who are not competent and replace them with those who can follow directions. Presto, you have a vanilla WoW raiding guild. You set up a website with a signup app and get a DKP web app. That's the organizational side of it in a nutshell.
The organizational side of it mostly puts the stress on the raid and guild leadership but for the rank and file it is just a matter of showing up on time and following directions. Setting up all this stuff might be inconvenient but it's trivial if you know what you are doing.
Originally posted by Dafong You have just completely changed the argument. YOUR argument originally was....raiding isn't hard, these people couldn't even do heroics and therefore they were simply different playstyles between raiding and soloing and nothing more.
I pointed out that the skill level isn't what makes raiding hard, it is being there at a particular time, for a set period of time and the effort it takes to get to the level of a raider.
You claimed that it was a back and forth, oh yes it is, oh not it isn't state of affiairs.
I pointed out that this wasn't true at all and we had both stated two different ideas and that you had refused to acknowledge or answer my criticism of your ideal about hard equating to skill.
Now you have completely changed the argument into whether skill requires more effort then time? Are you drunk?
Not currently, but I think I might have to have a few bevvies before I understand your twisted logic.
I said that in my opinion raiding wasn't hard.
You disagreed on the basis that in your opinion raiding is hard.
You're trying to convince me that my opinion is wrong by attempting to change my opinion on what defines difficulty in end-game content. I'm disagreeing with you there too because, to me, your opinion that time is more important than the actual challenge of the encounter is just anathema to me.
It's like you're saying that a security guard who works a 60 hour a week should be rewarded (paid) more than a neurosurgeon because the latter only spends a couple hours a day in the operating theater. It's like you're saying that the winner of a football match should be the one who stays on the pitch longest rather than the one who scores the most goals in the 90 minutes.
Playing: EVE, Final Fantasy 13, Uncharted 2, Need for Speed: Shift
Not currently, but I think I might have to have a few bevvies before I understand your twisted logic. I said that in my opinion raiding wasn't hard. You disagreed on the basis that in your opinion raiding is hard. You're trying to convince me that my opinion is wrong by attempting to change my opinion on what defines difficulty in end-game content. I'm disagreeing with you there too because, to me, your opinion that time is more important than the actual challenge of the encounter is just anathema to me. It's like you're saying that a security guard who works a 60 hour a week should be rewarded (paid) more than a neurosurgeon because the latter only spends a couple hours a day in the operating theater. It's like you're saying that the winner of a football match should be the one who stays on the pitch longest rather than the one who scores the most goals in the 90 minutes.
You are NOW claiming that we are disagreeing on whether Raiding is hard. No we are not.
What we are disagreeing on is the concept by which you are deciding that Raiding is not hard....do you understand the subtle difference? You claimed that raiding was not hard because it did not require skill.
I stated that skill is not the measurement by which you should decide whether raiding is 'hard'.
Now you claim we are disagreeing on whether raiding is hard or not....that is simply not true. You have not answered the criticism that your basis for judgement on whether raiding is difficult or not is wrong.
""It's like you're saying that a security guard who works a 60 hour a week should be rewarded (paid) more than a neurosurgeon because the latter only spends a couple hours a day in the operating theater. It's like you're saying that the winner of a football match should be the one who stays on the pitch longest rather than the one who scores the most goals in the 90 minutes""
No it is not, because they are different jobs and one is a game that has a limited time frame and a system by which one is a 'winner'
It is like arguing that the neurosurgeon that works 80 hours a week should not earn more then the neurosurgen that works 40 hours a week.
That is the argument, because skill level is irrelevent as it is a purely arbitrary impossible to judge critieria that will change. Raiders and solo players can both show incredibly high and incredibly low levels of skill. So claiming one is a neurosurgeon and the other is security guard is meaningless.
Originally posted by Dafong You are NOW claiming that we are disagreeing on whether Raiding is hard. No we are not.What we are disagreeing on is the concept by which you are deciding that Raiding is not hard....do you understand the subtle difference? You claimed that raiding was not hard because it did not require skill.
I stated that skill is not the measurement by which you should decide whether raiding is 'hard'.
Now you claim we are disagreeing on whether raiding is hard or not....that is simply not true. You have not answered the criticism that your basis for judgement on whether raiding is difficult or not is wrong.
""It's like you're saying that a security guard who works a 60 hour a week should be rewarded (paid) more than a neurosurgeon because the latter only spends a couple hours a day in the operating theater. It's like you're saying that the winner of a football match should be the one who stays on the pitch longest rather than the one who scores the most goals in the 90 minutes""
No it is not, because they are different jobs and one is a game that has a limited time frame and a system by which one is a 'winner'It is like arguing that the neurosurgeon that works 80 hours a week should not earn more then the neurosurgen that works 40 hours a week.
That is the argument, because skill level is irrelevent as it is a purely arbitrary impossible to judge critieria that will change. Raiders and solo players can both show incredibly high and incredibly low levels of skill. So claiming one is a neurosurgeon and the other is security guard is meaningless.
I still don't know who won the football match?
And the analogy is fine, you just missed the point...
Originally posted by Dafong You are NOW claiming that we are disagreeing on whether Raiding is hard. No we are not.
Yes, we are. You're just obfuscating because you can't justify your statement that raiding is hard and you're getting disagreement from four sides. But I'll indulge you a tad.
You claim that raiding is hard because it requires you to get 25 people online for 5 hours per session.
I can dispute that because I've done it; it's just not "hard" at all.
Playing: EVE, Final Fantasy 13, Uncharted 2, Need for Speed: Shift
Originally posted by Dafong You are NOW claiming that we are disagreeing on whether Raiding is hard. No we are not.
Yes, we are. You're just obfuscating because you can't justify your statement that raiding is hard and you're getting disagreement from four sides. But I'll indulge you a tad.
You claim that raiding is hard because it requires you to get 25 people online for 5 hours per session.
I can dispute that because I've done it; it's just not "hard" at all.
Dude hes not saying its hard................ He is saying that it takes time, commentment and effort, to raid. You the one inserting hard into his side of the argument.
Edit: I hope i followed the debate close enough that I am not wrong.
Waiting for:EQ-Next, ArcheAge (not so much anymore) Now Playing: N/A Worst MMO: FFXIV Favorite MMO: FFXI
Originally posted by Dafong You are NOW claiming that we are disagreeing on whether Raiding is hard. No we are not.
Yes, we are. You're just obfuscating because you can't justify your statement that raiding is hard and you're getting disagreement from four sides. But I'll indulge you a tad.
You claim that raiding is hard because it requires you to get 25 people online for 5 hours per session.
I can dispute that because I've done it; it's just not "hard" at all.
Dude hes not saying its hard................ He is saying that it takes time, commentment and effort, to raid. You the one inserting hard into his side of the argument.
Edit: I hope i followed the debate close enough that I am not wrong.
His words: "it [Raiding] is hard because it is hard to organise, it is difficult to commit the time"
Playing: EVE, Final Fantasy 13, Uncharted 2, Need for Speed: Shift
For many years, Hami-O raid enhancements were the best in game. It wasn't till recently that you could get equitable enhancements through the new crafting system. By then, I was long bored with the game. I'm still waiting for an MMO that ignores raiders. Bioware is chicken shit, because they are still going to offer raiding content and I guarantee you they get exclusive content and rewards and preferential end game treatment.
As they should.
If you can't be bothered to put in the effort, don't expect to get the same.
Its is like asking for an MMORPG with no levelling system in it and no equipment and no skills, in fact everyone should just be an amorphous blob, unable to move, in a pitch black room with nothing in it!!!
What a dull MMORPG that would be.
I put in a lot of effort into every game I play. It's no less relative than your play style. Your elitist attitude is the exact reason why I despise raiders in the first place. Luckily, I don't have to convince self centered players like you, but developers who may be just as self centered, but are ultimately motivated by income and casuals are where the majority of the income is in today's MMO genre.
With PvE raiding, it has never been a question of being "good enough". I play games to have fun, not to be a simpering toady sitting through hour after hour of mind numbing boredom and fawning over a guild master in the hopes that he will condescend to reward me with shiny bits of loot. But in games where those people get the highest progression, anyone who doesn't do that will just be a moving target for them and I'll be damned if I'm going to pay money for the privilege. - Neanderthal
Originally posted by Dafong You are NOW claiming that we are disagreeing on whether Raiding is hard. No we are not.
Yes, we are. You're just obfuscating because you can't justify your statement that raiding is hard and you're getting disagreement from four sides. But I'll indulge you a tad.
You claim that raiding is hard because it requires you to get 25 people online for 5 hours per session.
I can dispute that because I've done it; it's just not "hard" at all.
Dude hes not saying its hard................ He is saying that it takes time, commentment and effort, to raid. You the one inserting hard into his side of the argument.
Edit: I hope i followed the debate close enough that I am not wrong.
His words: "it [Raiding] is hard because it is hard to organise, it is difficult to commit the time"
I have pointed out that it isn't about skill it is about the commitment of time and the effort required, not the skill."
I agree with that. There is nothing hard or anything that requires vast amounts of skills in an MMO.
Of course you could argue that solo playing requires time, commitment and effort. but its my opinion that grouping and raiding take a much higher degree of time, commitment and effort, well at least the latter 2.
But anyways I believe ill see my way out of this debate before I get worked up. (Which is far to easy for me to do on this subject.)
Waiting for:EQ-Next, ArcheAge (not so much anymore) Now Playing: N/A Worst MMO: FFXIV Favorite MMO: FFXI
Fast levling so that not much money is spent on creating quests, tales and landscapes, and then raiding, and instanced loot whoring.. cheap cheap.. fast cash.
Originally posted by Dafong You are NOW claiming that we are disagreeing on whether Raiding is hard. No we are not.
Yes, we are. You're just obfuscating because you can't justify your statement that raiding is hard and you're getting disagreement from four sides. But I'll indulge you a tad.
You claim that raiding is hard because it requires you to get 25 people online for 5 hours per session.
I can dispute that because I've done it; it's just not "hard" at all.
Dude hes not saying its hard................ He is saying that it takes time, commentment and effort, to raid. You the one inserting hard into his side of the argument.
Edit: I hope i followed the debate close enough that I am not wrong.
Actually he did use the argument that the organizational side of raiding is what makes it hard. There is a ton of stuff in WoW that takes time, commitment and effort but is not rewarded as much as raiding. So if raiding is not much harder than this stuff on its own then it should not get that much better rewards.
Originally posted by Dafong You are NOW claiming that we are disagreeing on whether Raiding is hard. No we are not.
Yes, we are. You're just obfuscating because you can't justify your statement that raiding is hard and you're getting disagreement from four sides. But I'll indulge you a tad.
You claim that raiding is hard because it requires you to get 25 people online for 5 hours per session.
I can dispute that because I've done it; it's just not "hard" at all.
yes it is, teh argument to give you an example is you saying....well that is only 2 feet away, and me saying, yeah but only if you measure a foot as 14 inches. And then you claiming that we are having a back and forth...no we ain't, I am pointing out that your measurement is wrong.
In relative terms, that is something you want to ignore. It is not whether Raiding is "hard" it is whether raiding is "harder" then group or solo.
Is it not harder to get 25 people online at the same time for five hours. Is not the commitment to be online at a specific time for a particular length of time harder then just rolling up when you like for however long you like?
Of course it is, any denial of that just makes you incapable of admitting when you are wrong.
Actually he did use the argument that the organizational side of raiding is what makes it hard. There is a ton of stuff in WoW that takes time, commitment and effort but is not rewarded as much as raiding. So if raiding is not much harder than this stuff on its own then it should not get that much better rewards.
Rubbish, every single thing but raiding in WoW can be done how you like. The only thing comparable is Tournaments.
Everything else you can do in your own time, at your own speed, whenever you like.
That is not comparable to something that requires a time commitment.
Originally posted by Dafong yes it is, teh argument to give you an example is you saying....well that is only 2 feet away, and me saying, yeah but only if you measure a foot as 14 inches. And then you claiming that we are having a back and forth...no we ain't, I am pointing out that your measurement is wrong. In relative terms, that is something you want to ignore. It is not whether Raiding is "hard" it is whether raiding is "harder" then group or solo. Is it not harder to get 25 people online at the same time for five hours. Is not the commitment to be online at a specific time for a particular length of time harder then just rolling up when you like for however long you like? Of course it is, any denial of that just makes you incapable of admitting when you are wrong.
It absolutely boggles the mind that you consider it "a challenge" to do something as unimaginatively basic as logging into the game a predetermined time, and it's doubly astounding that you conisder that, by mastering this challenge, you should be handed access to the best progression available in the game.
There's just no sense reasoning with such profound delusion.
Playing: EVE, Final Fantasy 13, Uncharted 2, Need for Speed: Shift
It absolutely boggles the mind that you consider it "a challenge" to do something as unimaginatively basic as logging into the game a predetermined time, and it's doubly astounding that you conisder that, by mastering this challenge, you should be handed access to the best progression available in the game. There's just no sense reasoning with such profound delusion.
I only half agree with you.
It does take more commitment as a guild to get two dozen people together for a group. As a collective entity, it takes more effort. Individually, it doesn't take more effort, especially because once you learn the AI and the way the encounters will go, you're basically just showing up and going thru the motions. That's where the term "Dungeon Run" originated.
But does this mean that as a collective entity, you should get better rewards? I think so, actually -- unless that gear can unbalance you in the PvP aspect of a game against soloers, in which case I'd say "no". But the fact that you have to "run" that dungeon a bunch of friggin' times just to do it is stupid, although an MMO developer feels he's got to hook you in somehow.
The fact that earning gear is considered a sort of "progression" in the game -- which is true -- is a sorry state of affairs in the MMO genre. It's why I'm totally turned off to a PvE endgame.
Since it isn't likely that I'll ever find out for myself, I was wondering, what do you like about end-game and / or raiding? (I'm not just talking about WoW here; whatever game you play).
Working as a team with others and seeing parts of the game and content that few players ever get to see, have only heard about, but would like to.
I usually don't care if I ever get a drop, I prefer the exposure to the content more than the rewards from it. But if I ever got one, I wouldn't say "no" to it.
Originally posted by Dafong yes it is, teh argument to give you an example is you saying....well that is only 2 feet away, and me saying, yeah but only if you measure a foot as 14 inches. And then you claiming that we are having a back and forth...no we ain't, I am pointing out that your measurement is wrong. In relative terms, that is something you want to ignore. It is not whether Raiding is "hard" it is whether raiding is "harder" then group or solo. Is it not harder to get 25 people online at the same time for five hours. Is not the commitment to be online at a specific time for a particular length of time harder then just rolling up when you like for however long you like? Of course it is, any denial of that just makes you incapable of admitting when you are wrong.
It absolutely boggles the mind that you consider it "a challenge" to do something as unimaginatively basic as logging into the game a predetermined time, and it's doubly astounding that you conisder that, by mastering this challenge, you should be handed access to the best progression available in the game.
There's just no sense reasoning with such profound delusion.
No one has claimed it is a challenge.
The simple truth is, it is harder to log in at a specified time for a specified period to do a specified thing, then it is to log in when you like, for as long as you like to do whatever you like.
You can't handle that simple truth so keep talking bullshit about it being a challenge, something NO-ONE has said.
I only half agree with you. It does take more commitment as a guild to get two dozen people together for a group. As a collective entity, it takes more effort. Individually, it doesn't take more effort, especially because once you learn the AI and the way the encounters will go, you're basically just showing up and going thru the motions. That's where the term "Dungeon Run" originated. But does this mean that as a collective entity, you should get better rewards? I think so, actually -- unless that gear can unbalance you in the PvP aspect of a game against soloers, in which case I'd say "no". But the fact that you have to "run" that dungeon a bunch of friggin' times just to do it is stupid, although an MMO developer feels he's got to hook you in somehow. The fact that earning gear is considered a sort of "progression" in the game -- which is true -- is a sorry state of affairs in the MMO genre. It's why I'm totally turned off to a PvE endgame.
Thing is again you are mixing what is difficult to accomplish in terms of skill and what is difficult to accomplish in terms of effort and commitment.
No there is no skill in being part of a raid guild..once you learn the AI etc.
The commitment and effort come from being online at a time that might not best suit you, being on for a length of time that you might rather not have been on for, doing something that oyu might not particularly enjoy but you know advances your guild.
These are the things that make it harder then solo playing. Solo playing or random group playing, I log in when I like, when it is convenient for me, not for the entire guild, for a length of time that suits me, I can log whenever I like, I don't have to stay for 3 hours because that is how long the content is and I ONLY have to do things that I find enjoyable, there is NO requirement for me to do anything for the advancement of anything, I just do what I like, when I like for as long as I like.
The fact that Ilvaldyr seems incapable of seeing this is probably down to the fact that he has made up his mind and no matter how much the truth or facts contradict him, he will just keep changing the argument to continue to suit his opinion. Oh I can't believe you think raiding is a purple horse named David....yeah right Ilvaldyr
Originally posted by Dafong No one has claimed it is a challenge.
The simple truth is, it is harder to log in at a specified time for a specified period to do a specified thing, then it is to log in when you like, for as long as you like to do whatever you like.
You can't handle that simple truth so keep talking bullshit about it being a challenge, something NO-ONE has said.
Use whatever word you like; "challenge", "hard", "difficult" .. none of them hold water.
The highlighted part. If I log in to join a 9pm raid, is that "harder" than logging in to join a 9pm 5-man dungeon group?
Playing: EVE, Final Fantasy 13, Uncharted 2, Need for Speed: Shift
Originally posted by Dafong The fact that Ilvaldyr seems incapable of seeing this is probably down to the fact that he has made up his mind and no matter how much the truth or facts contradict him, he will just keep changing the argument to continue to suit his opinion. Oh I can't believe you think raiding is a purple horse named David....yeah right Ilvaldyr
No, mate .. you really are just talking gibberish.
Again; (for like .. the 4th time) .. everything you're saying is opinion, not fact.
Playing: EVE, Final Fantasy 13, Uncharted 2, Need for Speed: Shift
Since it isn't likely that I'll ever find out for myself, I was wondering, what do you like about end-game and / or raiding? (I'm not just talking about WoW here; whatever game you play).
Working as a team with others and seeing parts of the game and content that few players ever get to see, have only heard about, but would like to.
I usually don't care if I ever get a drop, I prefer the exposure to the content more than the rewards from it. But if I ever got one, I wouldn't say "no" to it.
I can see where that might be a draw ^^ I'd like to experience it too, but I dunno that I'd like to experience it over and over again like you usually do to get the gear you want from it. If I didn't enjoy leveling as much as I do, I might raid / participate in end-game for the reasons you stated above I would also be more inclined to do small-group endgame (5-man) than raids.
"In Internet slang, a troll is someone who posts controversial, inflammatory, irrelevant or off-topic messages in an online community, such as an online discussion forum, chat room or blog, with the primary intent of provoking other users into an emotional or disciplinary response[1] or of otherwise disrupting normal on-topic discussion.[2]" (Wikipedia.org, 8-24-09)
as far as the debate that's going on above... It is harder (in terms of effort / time spent) to organize 25 - 40 people to be online doing the same thing at the same time; much less to do it correctly. But only the guild leader(s) / raid leader(s) need to do this. The average raider just shows up to the raids that are going on at a time that is either convenient for him, or that he feels are worth the inconvenience to show up for. Really not much different than any other content except for the raid / guild leaders.
What would make more sense (than giving raiders the better gear / progression than everyone else) would be to give raiders progression in raiding; give them abilities / attributes that make them stronger while raiding. Make them better raiders. It doesn't make sense to put raiders above everyone else in terms of advancement at anything other than the task that they are doing. It's still a reward, and "raider advancement" or "raider levels" would be of great value to raiders, but no value to those who don't enjoy (who don't value) raiding in the first place.
[edited to clarify "harder"]
[Edit 2: Added in a suggestion for alternate progression for raiders]
"In Internet slang, a troll is someone who posts controversial, inflammatory, irrelevant or off-topic messages in an online community, such as an online discussion forum, chat room or blog, with the primary intent of provoking other users into an emotional or disciplinary response[1] or of otherwise disrupting normal on-topic discussion.[2]" (Wikipedia.org, 8-24-09)
Comments
As they should.
If you can't be bothered to put in the effort, don't expect to get the same.
Its is like asking for an MMORPG with no levelling system in it and no equipment and no skills, in fact everyone should just be an amorphous blob, unable to move, in a pitch black room with nothing in it!!!
What a dull MMORPG that would be.
That stuff is trivial. You decide on a time that is good for your raid leadership and just weed out all the players who cannot commit to those times. Then you weed out the people who are not competent and replace them with those who can follow directions. Presto, you have a vanilla WoW raiding guild. You set up a website with a signup app and get a DKP web app. That's the organizational side of it in a nutshell.
The organizational side of it mostly puts the stress on the raid and guild leadership but for the rank and file it is just a matter of showing up on time and following directions. Setting up all this stuff might be inconvenient but it's trivial if you know what you are doing.
Not currently, but I think I might have to have a few bevvies before I understand your twisted logic.
I said that in my opinion raiding wasn't hard.
You disagreed on the basis that in your opinion raiding is hard.
You're trying to convince me that my opinion is wrong by attempting to change my opinion on what defines difficulty in end-game content. I'm disagreeing with you there too because, to me, your opinion that time is more important than the actual challenge of the encounter is just anathema to me.
It's like you're saying that a security guard who works a 60 hour a week should be rewarded (paid) more than a neurosurgeon because the latter only spends a couple hours a day in the operating theater. It's like you're saying that the winner of a football match should be the one who stays on the pitch longest rather than the one who scores the most goals in the 90 minutes.
Playing: EVE, Final Fantasy 13, Uncharted 2, Need for Speed: Shift
You are NOW claiming that we are disagreeing on whether Raiding is hard. No we are not.
What we are disagreeing on is the concept by which you are deciding that Raiding is not hard....do you understand the subtle difference? You claimed that raiding was not hard because it did not require skill.
I stated that skill is not the measurement by which you should decide whether raiding is 'hard'.
Now you claim we are disagreeing on whether raiding is hard or not....that is simply not true. You have not answered the criticism that your basis for judgement on whether raiding is difficult or not is wrong.
""It's like you're saying that a security guard who works a 60 hour a week should be rewarded (paid) more than a neurosurgeon because the latter only spends a couple hours a day in the operating theater. It's like you're saying that the winner of a football match should be the one who stays on the pitch longest rather than the one who scores the most goals in the 90 minutes""
No it is not, because they are different jobs and one is a game that has a limited time frame and a system by which one is a 'winner'
It is like arguing that the neurosurgeon that works 80 hours a week should not earn more then the neurosurgen that works 40 hours a week.
That is the argument, because skill level is irrelevent as it is a purely arbitrary impossible to judge critieria that will change. Raiders and solo players can both show incredibly high and incredibly low levels of skill. So claiming one is a neurosurgeon and the other is security guard is meaningless.
I still don't know who won the football match?
And the analogy is fine, you just missed the point...
Yes, we are. You're just obfuscating because you can't justify your statement that raiding is hard and you're getting disagreement from four sides. But I'll indulge you a tad.
You claim that raiding is hard because it requires you to get 25 people online for 5 hours per session.
I can dispute that because I've done it; it's just not "hard" at all.
Playing: EVE, Final Fantasy 13, Uncharted 2, Need for Speed: Shift
Yes, we are. You're just obfuscating because you can't justify your statement that raiding is hard and you're getting disagreement from four sides. But I'll indulge you a tad.
You claim that raiding is hard because it requires you to get 25 people online for 5 hours per session.
I can dispute that because I've done it; it's just not "hard" at all.
Dude hes not saying its hard................ He is saying that it takes time, commentment and effort, to raid. You the one inserting hard into his side of the argument.
Edit: I hope i followed the debate close enough that I am not wrong.
Waiting for:EQ-Next, ArcheAge (not so much anymore)
Now Playing: N/A
Worst MMO: FFXIV
Favorite MMO: FFXI
Yes, we are. You're just obfuscating because you can't justify your statement that raiding is hard and you're getting disagreement from four sides. But I'll indulge you a tad.
You claim that raiding is hard because it requires you to get 25 people online for 5 hours per session.
I can dispute that because I've done it; it's just not "hard" at all.
Dude hes not saying its hard................ He is saying that it takes time, commentment and effort, to raid. You the one inserting hard into his side of the argument.
Edit: I hope i followed the debate close enough that I am not wrong.
His words: "it [Raiding] is hard because it is hard to organise, it is difficult to commit the time"
Playing: EVE, Final Fantasy 13, Uncharted 2, Need for Speed: Shift
As they should.
If you can't be bothered to put in the effort, don't expect to get the same.
Its is like asking for an MMORPG with no levelling system in it and no equipment and no skills, in fact everyone should just be an amorphous blob, unable to move, in a pitch black room with nothing in it!!!
What a dull MMORPG that would be.
I put in a lot of effort into every game I play. It's no less relative than your play style. Your elitist attitude is the exact reason why I despise raiders in the first place. Luckily, I don't have to convince self centered players like you, but developers who may be just as self centered, but are ultimately motivated by income and casuals are where the majority of the income is in today's MMO genre.
With PvE raiding, it has never been a question of being "good enough". I play games to have fun, not to be a simpering toady sitting through hour after hour of mind numbing boredom and fawning over a guild master in the hopes that he will condescend to reward me with shiny bits of loot. But in games where those people get the highest progression, anyone who doesn't do that will just be a moving target for them and I'll be damned if I'm going to pay money for the privilege. - Neanderthal
Yes, we are. You're just obfuscating because you can't justify your statement that raiding is hard and you're getting disagreement from four sides. But I'll indulge you a tad.
You claim that raiding is hard because it requires you to get 25 people online for 5 hours per session.
I can dispute that because I've done it; it's just not "hard" at all.
Dude hes not saying its hard................ He is saying that it takes time, commentment and effort, to raid. You the one inserting hard into his side of the argument.
Edit: I hope i followed the debate close enough that I am not wrong.
His words: "it [Raiding] is hard because it is hard to organise, it is difficult to commit the time"
Ok i was wrong but on post #17 he states:
"You view hard as requiring skill.
I have pointed out that it isn't about skill it is about the commitment of time and the effort required, not the skill."
I agree with that. There is nothing hard or anything that requires vast amounts of skills in an MMO.
Of course you could argue that solo playing requires time, commitment and effort. but its my opinion that grouping and raiding take a much higher degree of time, commitment and effort, well at least the latter 2.
But anyways I believe ill see my way out of this debate before I get worked up. (Which is far to easy for me to do on this subject.)
Waiting for:EQ-Next, ArcheAge (not so much anymore)
Now Playing: N/A
Worst MMO: FFXIV
Favorite MMO: FFXI
raiding is the cheap solution.
Fast levling so that not much money is spent on creating quests, tales and landscapes, and then raiding, and instanced loot whoring.. cheap cheap.. fast cash.
Yes, we are. You're just obfuscating because you can't justify your statement that raiding is hard and you're getting disagreement from four sides. But I'll indulge you a tad.
You claim that raiding is hard because it requires you to get 25 people online for 5 hours per session.
I can dispute that because I've done it; it's just not "hard" at all.
Dude hes not saying its hard................ He is saying that it takes time, commentment and effort, to raid. You the one inserting hard into his side of the argument.
Edit: I hope i followed the debate close enough that I am not wrong.
Actually he did use the argument that the organizational side of raiding is what makes it hard. There is a ton of stuff in WoW that takes time, commitment and effort but is not rewarded as much as raiding. So if raiding is not much harder than this stuff on its own then it should not get that much better rewards.
Yes, we are. You're just obfuscating because you can't justify your statement that raiding is hard and you're getting disagreement from four sides. But I'll indulge you a tad.
You claim that raiding is hard because it requires you to get 25 people online for 5 hours per session.
I can dispute that because I've done it; it's just not "hard" at all.
yes it is, teh argument to give you an example is you saying....well that is only 2 feet away, and me saying, yeah but only if you measure a foot as 14 inches. And then you claiming that we are having a back and forth...no we ain't, I am pointing out that your measurement is wrong.
In relative terms, that is something you want to ignore. It is not whether Raiding is "hard" it is whether raiding is "harder" then group or solo.
Is it not harder to get 25 people online at the same time for five hours. Is not the commitment to be online at a specific time for a particular length of time harder then just rolling up when you like for however long you like?
Of course it is, any denial of that just makes you incapable of admitting when you are wrong.
Rubbish, every single thing but raiding in WoW can be done how you like. The only thing comparable is Tournaments.
Everything else you can do in your own time, at your own speed, whenever you like.
That is not comparable to something that requires a time commitment.
It absolutely boggles the mind that you consider it "a challenge" to do something as unimaginatively basic as logging into the game a predetermined time, and it's doubly astounding that you conisder that, by mastering this challenge, you should be handed access to the best progression available in the game.
There's just no sense reasoning with such profound delusion.
Playing: EVE, Final Fantasy 13, Uncharted 2, Need for Speed: Shift
I only half agree with you.
It does take more commitment as a guild to get two dozen people together for a group. As a collective entity, it takes more effort. Individually, it doesn't take more effort, especially because once you learn the AI and the way the encounters will go, you're basically just showing up and going thru the motions. That's where the term "Dungeon Run" originated.
But does this mean that as a collective entity, you should get better rewards? I think so, actually -- unless that gear can unbalance you in the PvP aspect of a game against soloers, in which case I'd say "no". But the fact that you have to "run" that dungeon a bunch of friggin' times just to do it is stupid, although an MMO developer feels he's got to hook you in somehow.
The fact that earning gear is considered a sort of "progression" in the game -- which is true -- is a sorry state of affairs in the MMO genre. It's why I'm totally turned off to a PvE endgame.
Working as a team with others and seeing parts of the game and content that few players ever get to see, have only heard about, but would like to.
I usually don't care if I ever get a drop, I prefer the exposure to the content more than the rewards from it. But if I ever got one, I wouldn't say "no" to it.
"TO MICHAEL!"
It absolutely boggles the mind that you consider it "a challenge" to do something as unimaginatively basic as logging into the game a predetermined time, and it's doubly astounding that you conisder that, by mastering this challenge, you should be handed access to the best progression available in the game.
There's just no sense reasoning with such profound delusion.
No one has claimed it is a challenge.
The simple truth is, it is harder to log in at a specified time for a specified period to do a specified thing, then it is to log in when you like, for as long as you like to do whatever you like.
You can't handle that simple truth so keep talking bullshit about it being a challenge, something NO-ONE has said.
Thing is again you are mixing what is difficult to accomplish in terms of skill and what is difficult to accomplish in terms of effort and commitment.
No there is no skill in being part of a raid guild..once you learn the AI etc.
The commitment and effort come from being online at a time that might not best suit you, being on for a length of time that you might rather not have been on for, doing something that oyu might not particularly enjoy but you know advances your guild.
These are the things that make it harder then solo playing. Solo playing or random group playing, I log in when I like, when it is convenient for me, not for the entire guild, for a length of time that suits me, I can log whenever I like, I don't have to stay for 3 hours because that is how long the content is and I ONLY have to do things that I find enjoyable, there is NO requirement for me to do anything for the advancement of anything, I just do what I like, when I like for as long as I like.
The fact that Ilvaldyr seems incapable of seeing this is probably down to the fact that he has made up his mind and no matter how much the truth or facts contradict him, he will just keep changing the argument to continue to suit his opinion. Oh I can't believe you think raiding is a purple horse named David....yeah right Ilvaldyr
Use whatever word you like; "challenge", "hard", "difficult" .. none of them hold water.
The highlighted part. If I log in to join a 9pm raid, is that "harder" than logging in to join a 9pm 5-man dungeon group?
Playing: EVE, Final Fantasy 13, Uncharted 2, Need for Speed: Shift
No, mate .. you really are just talking gibberish.
Again; (for like .. the 4th time) .. everything you're saying is opinion, not fact.
Playing: EVE, Final Fantasy 13, Uncharted 2, Need for Speed: Shift
Simple truth is, it is retarded.
So you're saying you should get the best gear for logging on at a certain time for a certain amount of time?
Working as a team with others and seeing parts of the game and content that few players ever get to see, have only heard about, but would like to.
I usually don't care if I ever get a drop, I prefer the exposure to the content more than the rewards from it. But if I ever got one, I wouldn't say "no" to it.
I can see where that might be a draw ^^ I'd like to experience it too, but I dunno that I'd like to experience it over and over again like you usually do to get the gear you want from it. If I didn't enjoy leveling as much as I do, I might raid / participate in end-game for the reasons you stated above
I would also be more inclined to do small-group endgame (5-man) than raids.
"In Internet slang, a troll is someone who posts controversial, inflammatory, irrelevant or off-topic messages in an online community, such as an online discussion forum, chat room or blog, with the primary intent of provoking other users into an emotional or disciplinary response[1] or of otherwise disrupting normal on-topic discussion.[2]" (Wikipedia.org, 8-24-09)
The best way to deal with trolls:
http://www.angelfire.com/space/usenet/ [IGNORE THEM, THEY JUST WANT ATTENTION!]
as far as the debate that's going on above... It is harder (in terms of effort / time spent) to organize 25 - 40 people to be online doing the same thing at the same time; much less to do it correctly. But only the guild leader(s) / raid leader(s) need to do this. The average raider just shows up to the raids that are going on at a time that is either convenient for him, or that he feels are worth the inconvenience to show up for. Really not much different than any other content except for the raid / guild leaders.
What would make more sense (than giving raiders the better gear / progression than everyone else) would be to give raiders progression in raiding; give them abilities / attributes that make them stronger while raiding. Make them better raiders. It doesn't make sense to put raiders above everyone else in terms of advancement at anything other than the task that they are doing. It's still a reward, and "raider advancement" or "raider levels" would be of great value to raiders, but no value to those who don't enjoy (who don't value) raiding in the first place.
[edited to clarify "harder"]
[Edit 2: Added in a suggestion for alternate progression for raiders]
"In Internet slang, a troll is someone who posts controversial, inflammatory, irrelevant or off-topic messages in an online community, such as an online discussion forum, chat room or blog, with the primary intent of provoking other users into an emotional or disciplinary response[1] or of otherwise disrupting normal on-topic discussion.[2]" (Wikipedia.org, 8-24-09)
The best way to deal with trolls:
http://www.angelfire.com/space/usenet/ [IGNORE THEM, THEY JUST WANT ATTENTION!]