Isn't it ironic that those of us who like to solo (a little or a lot) are more than willing to let other people group if thats how they choose to play.... but those who want forced grouping don't even want to allow us to play, they act as if we have no right to even try... Strange, how people who are such assholes want people to be forced to group with them. Perhaps because no one will play with them otherwise?
I agree that playing a MMO and never wanting to interact with another player goes against the concept of MMO. That doesn't mean it is not an MMO because there is solo content in the game. Interaction can be simply using the AH to post and buy items. Just because some players want to spend their time and money on an MMO and play it like a SPG doesn't make them or the devs designing content for them "poison". Every player paying money to play the game should have something fun designed for them to do. This in no way means that games should not continue to design content for group play. Group content in the form of instances or raids should be the main focus. Just not the only focus IMHO.
So If a bunch of new people who want to play hockey but don't like sticks ,goalies and ice skates, does that mean the developers should remove sticks, goalies and ice skates and everyone should carry the puck in their hand like a football? Because more people want to play It that way so It will generate more money, even though It is totally against the core of what makes ''Hockey'' Hockey.
I don't think you understood what I said. In your example of hockey. The devs would be looking to make money from these new people. If there is a bunch of new people looking to give there money away for a different option, the devs will look for a way to take their money. With the hockey theme, the devs would leave the hockey game the same for those already playing. They would add a different league that plays without hockey sticks with a few new rules. These new players could play that all they want. It wouldn't effect the current hockey players at all. Their game would not change. The new players playing without sticks may decide that the sticks look like a good idea and will then move over to the game of hockey and give it a try.
Just becasue there is content for some doesn't mean everyone has to use it. Each can play the way they want without causing problems with the other group of players. No reason to have only one way of playing. More is allways better.
Than these SPG style games should be considered in a different league going by your opinion and not be under the same genre as ""MMORPG""
Read Madeux's post, he said it better than I did. They are all MMORPG when you have a persistant world where thousands can log on and comunicate or interact together. The fact that some choose not to makes no difference.
The main difference between the SPG RPG and the MMO is the game world. SPG games are very limited in what they offer. You play them for a few weeks if you are lucky before you finnish them. There is so much more to do in an MMO that you can't do in a SPG. I prefere to group when I can. I try to find a good guild and group and help out as much as possible. The comunication with others is as fun as the game many times. That doen't mean I think that having a solo option within the same game is a problem for a MMO.
I will say it again. The more options a MMO has for play styles. The more subs you will have for a better grouping experience. If you have a game that only groups, you will have a much more difficult time finding a group if your guild or friends are not online. Many Solo players will group when asked. Most are not antisocial peolple. They just enjoy the game more when solo or have a difficult time finding players to group with. Calling these players poision or the devs that create content for them poision makes no sence.
How many people long for that "past, simpler, and better world," I wonder, without ever recognizing the truth that perhaps it was they who were simpler and better, and not the world about them? R.A.Salvatore
Isn't it ironic that those of us who like to solo (a little or a lot) are more than willing to let other people group if thats how they choose to play.... but those who want forced grouping don't even want to allow us to play, they act as if we have no right to even try... Strange, how people who are such assholes want people to be forced to group with them. Perhaps because no one will play with them otherwise?
First off I wasn't even going to reply to your original post in the thread, as it contributed nothing and was a poor mans bag of flames.
You have quite the imagination and are always fabricating anything said that doesn't praise soloing, as has been seen in many other previous threads were you spit your venom on group supporting threads.
It's really no surprise.
And way to twist my words around.
I never said you have to be forced to group, learn to read the lines as well as in between them.
Way to fabricate.
but of course that's YOU. Not reading anything anyone posts and replying to them like you actually did read everything that was posted in the OP and my posts that were continued in the thread before your own.
Isn't it ironic that those of us who like to solo (a little or a lot) are more than willing to let other people group if thats how they choose to play.... but those who want forced grouping don't even want to allow us to play, they act as if we have no right to even try... Strange, how people who are such assholes want people to be forced to group with them. Perhaps because no one will play with them otherwise?
First off I wasn't even going to reply to your original post in the thread, as it contributed nothing and was a poor mans bag of flames.
You have quite the imagination and are always fabricating anything said that doesn't praise soloing, as has been seen in many other previous threads were you spit your venom on group supporting threads.
It's really no surprise.
And way to twist my words around.
I never said you have to be forced to group, learn to read the lines as well as in between them.
Way to fabricate.
but of course that's YOU. Not reading anything anyone posts and replying to them like you actually did read everything that was posted in the OP and my posts that were continued in the thread before your own.
lol
bag of flames? Try "bag of excellent humor"
Do you even know what the word "fabricate" means? honestly? onelook.com is a great dictionary, will give you plenty of sources, as well as examples of how to use it correctly. Then you will never say anything like "always fabricating anything said that doesn't praise soloing".
Isn't it ironic that those of us who like to solo (a little or a lot) are more than willing to let other people group if thats how they choose to play.... but those who want forced grouping don't even want to allow us to play, they act as if we have no right to even try... Strange, how people who are such assholes want people to be forced to group with them. Perhaps because no one will play with them otherwise?
First off I wasn't even going to reply to your original post in the thread, as it contributed nothing and was a poor mans bag of flames.
You have quite the imagination and are always fabricating anything said that doesn't praise soloing, as has been seen in many other previous threads were you spit your venom on group supporting threads.
It's really no surprise.
And way to twist my words around.
I never said you have to be forced to group, learn to read the lines as well as in between them.
Way to fabricate.
but of course that's YOU. Not reading anything anyone posts and replying to them like you actually did read everything that was posted in the OP and my posts that were continued in the thread before your own.
lol
bag of flames? Try "bag of excellent humor"
Do you even know what the word "fabricate" means? honestly? onelook.com is a great dictionary, will give you plenty of sources, as well as examples of how to use it correctly. Then you will never say anything like "always fabricating anything said that doesn't praise soloing".
Fabricate defintion :
# a deliberately false or improbable account
# writing in a fictional form
# lying: the deliberate act of deviating from the truth
Isn't it ironic that those of us who like to solo (a little or a lot) are more than willing to let other people group if thats how they choose to play.... but those who want forced grouping don't even want to allow us to play, they act as if we have no right to even try... Strange, how people who are such assholes want people to be forced to group with them. Perhaps because no one will play with them otherwise?
First off I wasn't even going to reply to your original post in the thread, as it contributed nothing and was a poor mans bag of flames.
You have quite the imagination and are always fabricating anything said that doesn't praise soloing, as has been seen in many other previous threads were you spit your venom on group supporting threads.
It's really no surprise.
And way to twist my words around.
I never said you have to be forced to group, learn to read the lines as well as in between them.
Way to fabricate.
but of course that's YOU. Not reading anything anyone posts and replying to them like you actually did read everything that was posted in the OP and my posts that were continued in the thread before your own.
lol
bag of flames? Try "bag of excellent humor"
Do you even know what the word "fabricate" means? honestly? onelook.com is a great dictionary, will give you plenty of sources, as well as examples of how to use it correctly. Then you will never say anything like "always fabricating anything said that doesn't praise soloing".
Fabricate defintion :
# a deliberately false or improbable account
# writing in a fictional form
# lying: the deliberate act of deviating from the truth
Sounds about right to me.
analogies are fictional?
laying it out just like it is? that's fictional?
pointing out the ridiculousness of your arguments?
I believe that trying to cater to both a Solo-Oriented population and a Group-Oriented population at the same time is not readily possible. People tend to follow the path of least resistance, and when it is easy to not have to rely on anyone else, almost no one will. I first noticed this when I tried to go back to EQ2 several years ago.
When EQ2 first started there were tons of people grouping, because the solo exp was quite pathetic. The populace kept asking for more solo content, and to make soloing easier. Then, over time, soloing reached the efficiency of grouping. And grouping pretty much died. I went back several months before the Kunark expansion and spent the whole month in LFG (I didn't just sit there, I solo'd but kept trying to put groups together). I got one group and it was for The Temple of Cazic Thule. I played a Bard.
The whole experience rather jaded me, and truthfully, caused me to start hating "Casual friendly" and solo oriented play, especially when there are very few games that cater to the heavy grouping mechanic these days.
I believe that solo and group are mutually exclusive terms. People follow the path of least resistance, and when it is easy to not have to rely on anyone else, no one will. I first noticed this when I tried to go back to EQ2 several years ago. When EQ2 first started there were tons of people grouping, because the solo exp was quite pathetic. The populace kept asking for more solo content, and to make soloing easier. Then, over time, soloing reached the efficiency of grouping. And grouping pretty much died. I went back several months before the Kunark expansion and spent the whole month in LFG (I didn't just sit there, I solo'd but kept trying to put groups together). I got one group and it was for The Temple of Cazic Thule. I played a Bard. The whole experience rather jaded me, and truthfully, caused me to start hating "Casual friendly" and solo oriented play, especially when there are very few games that cater to the heavy grouping mechanic these days.
Life and reality prove this theory wrong. You see, in the real world, some people climb mountains together, and others go it alone. Some people jog with friends, others prefer to go solo.
I'm right your wrong. My own subjective opinions and thoughts about you are the only substantial truth. I am God of the forums, soloing my way to Nagafens lair and leading him to his demise. Blah Blah, I rule, you suck, eat my nannie pekkers you platoonie bard baboes.
Paradoxically speaking of course. In the confinements of the depths of Madeuxs mind, there, vast as a sight beheld, the ruins of a solo army, biased and cold hearted.
I'm right your wrong. My own subjective opinions and thoughts about you are the only substantial truth. I am God of the forums, soloing my way to Nagafens lair and leading him to his demise. Blah Blah, I rule, you suck, eat my nannie pekkers you platoonie bard baboes.
Paradoxically speaking of course. In the confinements of the depths of Madeuxs mind, there, vast as a sight beheld, the ruins of a solo army, biased and cold hearted.
lol ur adorable
sure, you can't put together a valid argument, but at least ur entertaining.
It is only the result of Ignorance. A massive multi player online role playing game.
This genre is like the seed of a great tree and the poison that does not allow It to grow is solo game design.
A gamer should be allowed to play the game and have experiences without grouping but the core component that is needed for this genre to grow is community and grouping.
Player interactivity, grouping and community is as important to keeping this genre alive as food is to our bodies.
Without It, It becomes a dead life form.
The solution is not to make it impossible to solo, but to make it mechanically more rewarding to group. Games like DAOC did this right by providing group experience bonuses (and displayed the value of bonus right on your screen with each kill!), so you knew the value.
Socialization and community are certainly the real values of a group-based system, but when it is more effective and efficient to solo in a game players tend to gravitate that way to get the most out of their time in-game (when trying to level).
I believe that solo and group are mutually exclusive terms. People follow the path of least resistance, and when it is easy to not have to rely on anyone else, no one will. I first noticed this when I tried to go back to EQ2 several years ago. When EQ2 first started there were tons of people grouping, because the solo exp was quite pathetic. The populace kept asking for more solo content, and to make soloing easier. Then, over time, soloing reached the efficiency of grouping. And grouping pretty much died. I went back several months before the Kunark expansion and spent the whole month in LFG (I didn't just sit there, I solo'd but kept trying to put groups together). I got one group and it was for The Temple of Cazic Thule. I played a Bard. The whole experience rather jaded me, and truthfully, caused me to start hating "Casual friendly" and solo oriented play, especially when there are very few games that cater to the heavy grouping mechanic these days.
Life and reality prove this theory wrong. You see, in the real world, some people climb mountains together, and others go it alone. Some people jog with friends, others prefer to go solo.
Reality sucks, huh?
I'm not entirely sure what you're implying. Of course with a population pool of billions there will be those who do stuff alone and those who do things together. I'd bet that most people exercise alone, because its easier to do it alone. And most people would climb mountains in a group, because, well, its hard to do it alone, and much more dangerous.
When mobs in games are hard and can kill you really easily, like EQ, people will tend to group. Of course there are still those who will try to solo, but the majority would attempt to group. And in solo oriented games, you steamroll over mobs and very few people group compared to those who solo.
I do suppose I could have worded my first sentence better. How about trying to cater to both a Solo-Oriented population and a Group- Oriented population at the same time is not readily possible.
It is only the result of Ignorance. A massive multi player online role playing game.
This genre is like the seed of a great tree and the poison that does not allow It to grow is solo game design.
A gamer should be allowed to play the game and have experiences without grouping but the core component that is needed for this genre to grow is community and grouping.
Player interactivity, grouping and community is as important to keeping this genre alive as food is to our bodies.
Without It, It becomes a dead life form.
The solution is not to make it impossible to solo, but to make it mechanically more rewarding to group. Games like DAOC did this right by providing group experience bonuses (and displayed the value of bonus right on your screen with each kill!), so you knew the value.
Socialization and community are certainly the real values of a group-based system, but when it is more effective and efficient to solo in a game players tend to gravitate that way to get the most out of their time in-game (when trying to level).
couple this with the fact that games have all but eliminated downtime and why group when I get more experience for soloing?
Add to that the fact that most games reward solo gameplay just as much as group gameplay in terms of rewards and again, why group?
Add in a couple more facts that recent games don't have any mechanic to bind the community together and offer either very easy group content or horrible group content and again why group?
I hate to blame WoW, but it has really bread the ME generation of MMORPG gamers. Before WoW, your actions in the community had consequences. If you were a a$$, then you were not welcome in groups, raids, or PvP. If you ninja looted, then you might as well reroll since you were never getting in a guild, group, or raid again. If you were labled as a guild hopper, then you would be hard pressed to get in any guild worth a damn. Now, people ninja loot, pay money to change a name or servers, and poof, all better. Guild Hopping is an accepted practice, and since most people are only out for themselves, it seems being an a$$ is accepted. Since most producers want part of that WoW pie, you are not likely to see it change anytime soon.
I am fine with solo play, but grouping needs to have much better rewards (exp or loot) and devs need to spend more time looking at the things in older games that helped promote community.
Tree analogy? WOW's soloing was part of the many nutrients that caused it to grow into the biggest tree ever. Sure you don't need those nutrients for every tree, but they were damn successful in at least one -- and there are some very concrete game design reasons why.
In regards to World of Warcraft, all I have to say is : ''A blind man guides a blind man and both will fall into a pit''
Not saying World of Warcraft is a bad game, It does a lot of things right, but using Its core game design, fundamentals and core components to lead this genre into the future, well read my above quote to get my thoughts on that.
I'm not saying there shouldn't be times when you can do things alone. On the contrary players need some alone time in game but It should not engulf the whole core fundamentals of the MMORPG.
And to those who are saying newer games that have slightly borrowed ideas from WoW and offer solo and group play and they both function fine ; have you guys actually played these games? Because I have and believe me, a rotting pile of shit covered in flies has more player interactivity, congruency and grouping going on then It does in those games.
If you concede WOW does lots of things right, why would call it "the blind"? WOW's success was not blind luck, but the result of intelligent decisions made regarding the game's design.
The blind are the companies who lack the design savvy to be able to pick and choose which of WOW's design mechanics to include or avoid in their new games. As a result we have a lot of lackluster mish-mashes.
You need one of the following to make a game without solo content:
An extremely solid plan for making the group focus work.
A commitment to making a game you know will never be as popular as a game with solo content.
I don't mean to infer that solo-less games are impossible to make, or that they can't be fun. They can. They're just not as successful. Period. It's a fact of the industry.
(EDIT: reworded a bit, because I was being a bit of a jerk. :X )
"What is truly revealing is his implication that believing something to be true is the same as it being true. [continue]" -John Oliver
Forced grouping doesn't promote a healthy community, all it does is make players picky as to who they play with. Soon after the only community those picky players will group/interact with is close friends and guild members. That's when these players begin berating the rest of the community for not being as "awesome" as their guild/friends as well as them becoming the party pooper, ruining perfectly good PUGs whenever they are forced to run with non-guildies.
Every game I've ever played the community chat is lit by players who do nothing more than stand around in game at the local hub starting trivial conversation with the rest of the region/world. How much solo play is in the game has nothing to do with how tight the community is, if you can't find fun in your chosen game then 1: you are either doing it wrong or 2: that particular game isn't for you.
A massively Multiplayer online Role Playing game - first many people online... it doesn't say a massively multiplayer Grouping Game. Just that there is a lot of people online at the same time. Secondly most MMo's I play have little or no Role Playing... just a bunch of people running around and insulting each other.
I group and solo according to my wants and desires, I pay for the privelege of playing the game, I'll play it how I want, and if I don't want to spend time in a group, very often of people who couldn't find or fight their way out of a wet paper sack, then I solo. A poster here said most groups are good. I find that to be a vast over exaggeration. Of 10 every 10 groups I have beeen in at least 6 have had one or more of the following: A 10 minute plus wait for a member to come to the group, a half hour finding members for a full group, at least one member who gets what they need and then leaves, 2 members argue over - any thing, s member - usually the tank who aggro's every single mob within the area and then when we all die complains that we didn't support them, 2 or more dps members who constantly whine that the one healer isn't healing them even though they were told the healer would concentrate on the tank, someone dies and instead of waiting for a rez leaves the group and then posts in the ingame chat that we kicked them after they died, constant fights over loot,...etc.
I could babysit my sister's kids - who are rebellious teens and see better behavior than I have seen in the majority of groups I have been in, with the exception of guild groups. so when I group it is within my guild.. and I still get flack for that. I turned down a blind group invite and had the inviter bombard me with invites and tells after I turned them down...saying I had ruined their game by not accepting their invite. What arrogance! I ruined their game by preferring to go help my guild mates.. which I telled him, but no he - who I did not know was more inportant and harrassed me to the point that I ogged. If you groupers want some respect - give some. Send a tell and ask don't blind invite. Don't use being in a group as an oppurtunity to act like you are 13 years old. Once in a group - stick with it till all members have their quests done, Know how to do your role - if you are a tank let some one draw in a single or a couple of mobs not the whole freakin' army.
I like soloing because I don't have to put up with you guys not because I don't like grouping. At least in a guild group you usually have some idea of who you are grouping with.
Oh, btw, if I just don't play then there is still 1 less person for you to bully into your group.
all i see in that name is that there will be many many people playing in the same game, i do not see any rule anywhere that states an MMORPG has to have grouping, is there an unwritten rule any place?
i think what you are looking for is a "Massive Multi Player Grouping Role Playing Game", i don't know if there are any of those.
"The great thing about human language is that it prevents us from sticking to the matter at hand." - Lewis Thomas
massive multi player online role playing game all i see in that name is that there will be many many people playing in the same game, i do not see any rule anywhere that states an MMORPG has to have grouping, is there an unwritten rule any place?
Exactly. Player interaction should be encouraged, but it should be spontaneous, not required.
Is there room for pre-scheduled grouping such as raiding? Of course. But should it be a requirement? No. Working together to take down large challenges is fun, but getting the logistics of coordinating, let's say, 25 people worked out is often not. On the other hand, you'll always have yourself and you know when you need to go potty, so soloing is a nice prospect.
But, like I said, if you're really super social and want to group with everyone all the time just for fun, then that should actually be encouraged (meaning devs put in some social non-combat activities, for instance). All the "massively multiplayer" part of MMORPG suggests is many people playing together in a persistent world.
Tossing my hat into the ring. I basically agree with the OP - soloing in MMOs is counterintuitive.
There are thousands of games designed for single-player play, that look, feel, and ARE a lot more entertaining if all you're going to do is play by yourself, anyway.
Hmm... MMO soloing. A new form of playing with one's self? I prefer partnered activities; in my MMOs as well as in real life.
If I want to be alone, I'll go read a book or play Fallout 3, or any one of a hundred entertaining single-player titles.
I don't really have a *problem* with people soloing in these games, I just have to say I don't quite understand it. It's like going to the local pub for a drink and then glaring at all the other patrons and telling them to leave you alone. If you didn't want to socialize, why go to the bar? Sit at home and drink alone like the friendless loser you are. (Kidding, kidding. )
It is only the result of Ignorance. A massive multi player online role playing game.
This genre is like the seed of a great tree and the poison that does not allow It to grow is solo game design.
A gamer should be allowed to play the game and have experiences without grouping but the core component that is needed for this genre to grow is community and grouping.
Player interactivity, grouping and community is as important to keeping this genre alive as food is to our bodies.
Without It, It becomes a dead life form.
A great tree has many branches. There is plenty of room in the genre for both solo and group based MMOs. The only branches that will die are the ones that no one wants to play.
Get over it. A MMO that doesn't offer a fun, viable solo option is a niche, ignore by the masses and doomed to obscurity. I enjoy playing in a group, but if you force me to, you won't see a dime. I don't know a single person that wants to play a MMO that forces you to group all the time. They're all married with kids and jobs and responsibilities and lives. Its funny. The people who are most alone in real life want games to force everyone to group up. Its how they socialize. I always find that interesting=)
I don't really think anyone is suggesting "forced" grouping.
What is being suggested is gently coaxing people into grouping by making grouping much more rewarding than soloing.
If you want to solo your way to level 50 by killing boars and crafting potions; fine, more power to you - but the game system itself should be set up to allow people who *choose* to participate in grouping to level much more quickly and easily than those who want to go it alone.
People often follow the path of least resistance in leveling their toons. If you make grouping the easiest way to gain xp, more people will group. If you penalize people for grouping or make soloing an equally viable method to level, you're killing some of the spirit behind the game.
IMHO. I'll always prefer games that reward grouping over soloing. Do I solo? Sure, when it's 3AM and I can't find a group, or I'm too tired to care to find a group. BUT if I go through the trouble of finding or forming a decent group, yes, I want to be rewarded for it.
The argument isn't "soloing shouldn't be allowed" - it's more "grouping should be rewarded."
There is so much to be said about MMOs post-Wow and how they are all let downs.
Either way WoW used the "Keep It Simple Stupid" method and they made a game were everyone was a do it all hero without any real class restrictions and it worked great. Since then every other MMO out there has emulated that when they made their version or they have slowly conformed to that same idea with the hopes of making more $$.
Its sad to see that new games dont just take a chance and go thier own way.
Comments
Isn't it ironic that those of us who like to solo (a little or a lot) are more than willing to let other people group if thats how they choose to play.... but those who want forced grouping don't even want to allow us to play, they act as if we have no right to even try... Strange, how people who are such assholes want people to be forced to group with them. Perhaps because no one will play with them otherwise?
So If a bunch of new people who want to play hockey but don't like sticks ,goalies and ice skates, does that mean the developers should remove sticks, goalies and ice skates and everyone should carry the puck in their hand like a football? Because more people want to play It that way so It will generate more money, even though It is totally against the core of what makes ''Hockey'' Hockey.
I don't think you understood what I said. In your example of hockey. The devs would be looking to make money from these new people. If there is a bunch of new people looking to give there money away for a different option, the devs will look for a way to take their money. With the hockey theme, the devs would leave the hockey game the same for those already playing. They would add a different league that plays without hockey sticks with a few new rules. These new players could play that all they want. It wouldn't effect the current hockey players at all. Their game would not change. The new players playing without sticks may decide that the sticks look like a good idea and will then move over to the game of hockey and give it a try.
Just becasue there is content for some doesn't mean everyone has to use it. Each can play the way they want without causing problems with the other group of players. No reason to have only one way of playing. More is allways better.
Than these SPG style games should be considered in a different league going by your opinion and not be under the same genre as ""MMORPG""
Read Madeux's post, he said it better than I did. They are all MMORPG when you have a persistant world where thousands can log on and comunicate or interact together. The fact that some choose not to makes no difference.
The main difference between the SPG RPG and the MMO is the game world. SPG games are very limited in what they offer. You play them for a few weeks if you are lucky before you finnish them. There is so much more to do in an MMO that you can't do in a SPG. I prefere to group when I can. I try to find a good guild and group and help out as much as possible. The comunication with others is as fun as the game many times. That doen't mean I think that having a solo option within the same game is a problem for a MMO.
I will say it again. The more options a MMO has for play styles. The more subs you will have for a better grouping experience. If you have a game that only groups, you will have a much more difficult time finding a group if your guild or friends are not online. Many Solo players will group when asked. Most are not antisocial peolple. They just enjoy the game more when solo or have a difficult time finding players to group with. Calling these players poision or the devs that create content for them poision makes no sence.
How many people long for that "past, simpler, and better world," I wonder, without ever recognizing the truth that perhaps it was they who were simpler and better, and not the world about them?
R.A.Salvatore
First off I wasn't even going to reply to your original post in the thread, as it contributed nothing and was a poor mans bag of flames.
You have quite the imagination and are always fabricating anything said that doesn't praise soloing, as has been seen in many other previous threads were you spit your venom on group supporting threads.
It's really no surprise.
And way to twist my words around.
I never said you have to be forced to group, learn to read the lines as well as in between them.
Way to fabricate.
but of course that's YOU. Not reading anything anyone posts and replying to them like you actually did read everything that was posted in the OP and my posts that were continued in the thread before your own.
I do not believe in styles. Only flowing.
First off I wasn't even going to reply to your original post in the thread, as it contributed nothing and was a poor mans bag of flames.
You have quite the imagination and are always fabricating anything said that doesn't praise soloing, as has been seen in many other previous threads were you spit your venom on group supporting threads.
It's really no surprise.
And way to twist my words around.
I never said you have to be forced to group, learn to read the lines as well as in between them.
Way to fabricate.
but of course that's YOU. Not reading anything anyone posts and replying to them like you actually did read everything that was posted in the OP and my posts that were continued in the thread before your own.
lol
bag of flames? Try "bag of excellent humor"
Do you even know what the word "fabricate" means? honestly? onelook.com is a great dictionary, will give you plenty of sources, as well as examples of how to use it correctly. Then you will never say anything like "always fabricating anything said that doesn't praise soloing".
First off I wasn't even going to reply to your original post in the thread, as it contributed nothing and was a poor mans bag of flames.
You have quite the imagination and are always fabricating anything said that doesn't praise soloing, as has been seen in many other previous threads were you spit your venom on group supporting threads.
It's really no surprise.
And way to twist my words around.
I never said you have to be forced to group, learn to read the lines as well as in between them.
Way to fabricate.
but of course that's YOU. Not reading anything anyone posts and replying to them like you actually did read everything that was posted in the OP and my posts that were continued in the thread before your own.
lol
bag of flames? Try "bag of excellent humor"
Do you even know what the word "fabricate" means? honestly? onelook.com is a great dictionary, will give you plenty of sources, as well as examples of how to use it correctly. Then you will never say anything like "always fabricating anything said that doesn't praise soloing".
Fabricate defintion :
# a deliberately false or improbable account
# writing in a fictional form
# lying: the deliberate act of deviating from the truth
Sounds about right to me.
I do not believe in styles. Only flowing.
First off I wasn't even going to reply to your original post in the thread, as it contributed nothing and was a poor mans bag of flames.
You have quite the imagination and are always fabricating anything said that doesn't praise soloing, as has been seen in many other previous threads were you spit your venom on group supporting threads.
It's really no surprise.
And way to twist my words around.
I never said you have to be forced to group, learn to read the lines as well as in between them.
Way to fabricate.
but of course that's YOU. Not reading anything anyone posts and replying to them like you actually did read everything that was posted in the OP and my posts that were continued in the thread before your own.
lol
bag of flames? Try "bag of excellent humor"
Do you even know what the word "fabricate" means? honestly? onelook.com is a great dictionary, will give you plenty of sources, as well as examples of how to use it correctly. Then you will never say anything like "always fabricating anything said that doesn't praise soloing".
Fabricate defintion :
# a deliberately false or improbable account
# writing in a fictional form
# lying: the deliberate act of deviating from the truth
Sounds about right to me.
analogies are fictional?
laying it out just like it is? that's fictional?
pointing out the ridiculousness of your arguments?
reminding you of your friendless childhood?
I believe that trying to cater to both a Solo-Oriented population and a Group-Oriented population at the same time is not readily possible. People tend to follow the path of least resistance, and when it is easy to not have to rely on anyone else, almost no one will. I first noticed this when I tried to go back to EQ2 several years ago.
When EQ2 first started there were tons of people grouping, because the solo exp was quite pathetic. The populace kept asking for more solo content, and to make soloing easier. Then, over time, soloing reached the efficiency of grouping. And grouping pretty much died. I went back several months before the Kunark expansion and spent the whole month in LFG (I didn't just sit there, I solo'd but kept trying to put groups together). I got one group and it was for The Temple of Cazic Thule. I played a Bard.
The whole experience rather jaded me, and truthfully, caused me to start hating "Casual friendly" and solo oriented play, especially when there are very few games that cater to the heavy grouping mechanic these days.
Life and reality prove this theory wrong. You see, in the real world, some people climb mountains together, and others go it alone. Some people jog with friends, others prefer to go solo.
Reality sucks, huh?
Paradoxically speaking of course. In the confinements of the depths of Madeuxs mind, there, vast as a sight beheld, the ruins of a solo army, biased and cold hearted.
I do not believe in styles. Only flowing.
Paradoxically speaking of course. In the confinements of the depths of Madeuxs mind, there, vast as a sight beheld, the ruins of a solo army, biased and cold hearted.
lol ur adorable
sure, you can't put together a valid argument, but at least ur entertaining.
The solution is not to make it impossible to solo, but to make it mechanically more rewarding to group. Games like DAOC did this right by providing group experience bonuses (and displayed the value of bonus right on your screen with each kill!), so you knew the value.
Socialization and community are certainly the real values of a group-based system, but when it is more effective and efficient to solo in a game players tend to gravitate that way to get the most out of their time in-game (when trying to level).
Life and reality prove this theory wrong. You see, in the real world, some people climb mountains together, and others go it alone. Some people jog with friends, others prefer to go solo.
Reality sucks, huh?
I'm not entirely sure what you're implying. Of course with a population pool of billions there will be those who do stuff alone and those who do things together. I'd bet that most people exercise alone, because its easier to do it alone. And most people would climb mountains in a group, because, well, its hard to do it alone, and much more dangerous.
When mobs in games are hard and can kill you really easily, like EQ, people will tend to group. Of course there are still those who will try to solo, but the majority would attempt to group. And in solo oriented games, you steamroll over mobs and very few people group compared to those who solo.
I do suppose I could have worded my first sentence better. How about trying to cater to both a Solo-Oriented population and a Group- Oriented population at the same time is not readily possible.
The solution is not to make it impossible to solo, but to make it mechanically more rewarding to group. Games like DAOC did this right by providing group experience bonuses (and displayed the value of bonus right on your screen with each kill!), so you knew the value.
Socialization and community are certainly the real values of a group-based system, but when it is more effective and efficient to solo in a game players tend to gravitate that way to get the most out of their time in-game (when trying to level).
couple this with the fact that games have all but eliminated downtime and why group when I get more experience for soloing?
Add to that the fact that most games reward solo gameplay just as much as group gameplay in terms of rewards and again, why group?
Add in a couple more facts that recent games don't have any mechanic to bind the community together and offer either very easy group content or horrible group content and again why group?
I hate to blame WoW, but it has really bread the ME generation of MMORPG gamers. Before WoW, your actions in the community had consequences. If you were a a$$, then you were not welcome in groups, raids, or PvP. If you ninja looted, then you might as well reroll since you were never getting in a guild, group, or raid again. If you were labled as a guild hopper, then you would be hard pressed to get in any guild worth a damn. Now, people ninja loot, pay money to change a name or servers, and poof, all better. Guild Hopping is an accepted practice, and since most people are only out for themselves, it seems being an a$$ is accepted. Since most producers want part of that WoW pie, you are not likely to see it change anytime soon.
I am fine with solo play, but grouping needs to have much better rewards (exp or loot) and devs need to spend more time looking at the things in older games that helped promote community.
MMORPg is not for group or soloish..
i agree that what it needed is to have a great number of both side.
Enjoy..^^
In regards to World of Warcraft, all I have to say is : ''A blind man guides a blind man and both will fall into a pit''
Not saying World of Warcraft is a bad game, It does a lot of things right, but using Its core game design, fundamentals and core components to lead this genre into the future, well read my above quote to get my thoughts on that.
I'm not saying there shouldn't be times when you can do things alone. On the contrary players need some alone time in game but It should not engulf the whole core fundamentals of the MMORPG.
And to those who are saying newer games that have slightly borrowed ideas from WoW and offer solo and group play and they both function fine ; have you guys actually played these games? Because I have and believe me, a rotting pile of shit covered in flies has more player interactivity, congruency and grouping going on then It does in those games.
If you concede WOW does lots of things right, why would call it "the blind"? WOW's success was not blind luck, but the result of intelligent decisions made regarding the game's design.
The blind are the companies who lack the design savvy to be able to pick and choose which of WOW's design mechanics to include or avoid in their new games. As a result we have a lot of lackluster mish-mashes.
You need one of the following to make a game without solo content:
I don't mean to infer that solo-less games are impossible to make, or that they can't be fun. They can. They're just not as successful. Period. It's a fact of the industry.
(EDIT: reworded a bit, because I was being a bit of a jerk. :X )
"What is truly revealing is his implication that believing something to be true is the same as it being true. [continue]" -John Oliver
Forced grouping doesn't promote a healthy community, all it does is make players picky as to who they play with. Soon after the only community those picky players will group/interact with is close friends and guild members. That's when these players begin berating the rest of the community for not being as "awesome" as their guild/friends as well as them becoming the party pooper, ruining perfectly good PUGs whenever they are forced to run with non-guildies.
Every game I've ever played the community chat is lit by players who do nothing more than stand around in game at the local hub starting trivial conversation with the rest of the region/world. How much solo play is in the game has nothing to do with how tight the community is, if you can't find fun in your chosen game then 1: you are either doing it wrong or 2: that particular game isn't for you.
A massively Multiplayer online Role Playing game - first many people online... it doesn't say a massively multiplayer Grouping Game. Just that there is a lot of people online at the same time. Secondly most MMo's I play have little or no Role Playing... just a bunch of people running around and insulting each other.
I group and solo according to my wants and desires, I pay for the privelege of playing the game, I'll play it how I want, and if I don't want to spend time in a group, very often of people who couldn't find or fight their way out of a wet paper sack, then I solo. A poster here said most groups are good. I find that to be a vast over exaggeration. Of 10 every 10 groups I have beeen in at least 6 have had one or more of the following: A 10 minute plus wait for a member to come to the group, a half hour finding members for a full group, at least one member who gets what they need and then leaves, 2 members argue over - any thing, s member - usually the tank who aggro's every single mob within the area and then when we all die complains that we didn't support them, 2 or more dps members who constantly whine that the one healer isn't healing them even though they were told the healer would concentrate on the tank, someone dies and instead of waiting for a rez leaves the group and then posts in the ingame chat that we kicked them after they died, constant fights over loot,...etc.
I could babysit my sister's kids - who are rebellious teens and see better behavior than I have seen in the majority of groups I have been in, with the exception of guild groups. so when I group it is within my guild.. and I still get flack for that. I turned down a blind group invite and had the inviter bombard me with invites and tells after I turned them down...saying I had ruined their game by not accepting their invite. What arrogance! I ruined their game by preferring to go help my guild mates.. which I telled him, but no he - who I did not know was more inportant and harrassed me to the point that I ogged. If you groupers want some respect - give some. Send a tell and ask don't blind invite. Don't use being in a group as an oppurtunity to act like you are 13 years old. Once in a group - stick with it till all members have their quests done, Know how to do your role - if you are a tank let some one draw in a single or a couple of mobs not the whole freakin' army.
I like soloing because I don't have to put up with you guys not because I don't like grouping. At least in a guild group you usually have some idea of who you are grouping with.
Oh, btw, if I just don't play then there is still 1 less person for you to bully into your group.
"Massive Multi Player Online Role Playing Game"
all i see in that name is that there will be many many people playing in the same game, i do not see any rule anywhere that states an MMORPG has to have grouping, is there an unwritten rule any place?
i think what you are looking for is a "Massive Multi Player Grouping Role Playing Game", i don't know if there are any of those.
"The great thing about human language is that it prevents us from sticking to the matter at hand."
- Lewis Thomas
The entire end game of every mmo is grouping. There is no solo end game content, what more do u want
Exactly. Player interaction should be encouraged, but it should be spontaneous, not required.
Is there room for pre-scheduled grouping such as raiding? Of course. But should it be a requirement? No. Working together to take down large challenges is fun, but getting the logistics of coordinating, let's say, 25 people worked out is often not. On the other hand, you'll always have yourself and you know when you need to go potty, so soloing is a nice prospect.
But, like I said, if you're really super social and want to group with everyone all the time just for fun, then that should actually be encouraged (meaning devs put in some social non-combat activities, for instance). All the "massively multiplayer" part of MMORPG suggests is many people playing together in a persistent world.
Tossing my hat into the ring. I basically agree with the OP - soloing in MMOs is counterintuitive.
There are thousands of games designed for single-player play, that look, feel, and ARE a lot more entertaining if all you're going to do is play by yourself, anyway.
Hmm... MMO soloing. A new form of playing with one's self?
I prefer partnered activities; in my MMOs as well as in real life.
If I want to be alone, I'll go read a book or play Fallout 3, or any one of a hundred entertaining single-player titles.
I don't really have a *problem* with people soloing in these games, I just have to say I don't quite understand it. It's like going to the local pub for a drink and then glaring at all the other patrons and telling them to leave you alone. If you didn't want to socialize, why go to the bar? Sit at home and drink alone like the friendless loser you are. (Kidding, kidding.
)
A great tree has many branches. There is plenty of room in the genre for both solo and group based MMOs. The only branches that will die are the ones that no one wants to play.
Get over it. A MMO that doesn't offer a fun, viable solo option is a niche, ignore by the masses and doomed to obscurity. I enjoy playing in a group, but if you force me to, you won't see a dime. I don't know a single person that wants to play a MMO that forces you to group all the time. They're all married with kids and jobs and responsibilities and lives. Its funny. The people who are most alone in real life want games to force everyone to group up. Its how they socialize. I always find that interesting=)
I don't really think anyone is suggesting "forced" grouping.
What is being suggested is gently coaxing people into grouping by making grouping much more rewarding than soloing.
If you want to solo your way to level 50 by killing boars and crafting potions; fine, more power to you - but the game system itself should be set up to allow people who *choose* to participate in grouping to level much more quickly and easily than those who want to go it alone.
People often follow the path of least resistance in leveling their toons. If you make grouping the easiest way to gain xp, more people will group. If you penalize people for grouping or make soloing an equally viable method to level, you're killing some of the spirit behind the game.
IMHO. I'll always prefer games that reward grouping over soloing. Do I solo? Sure, when it's 3AM and I can't find a group, or I'm too tired to care to find a group. BUT if I go through the trouble of finding or forming a decent group, yes, I want to be rewarded for it.
The argument isn't "soloing shouldn't be allowed" - it's more "grouping should be rewarded."
There is so much to be said about MMOs post-Wow and how they are all let downs.
Either way WoW used the "Keep It Simple Stupid" method and they made a game were everyone was a do it all hero without any real class restrictions and it worked great. Since then every other MMO out there has emulated that when they made their version or they have slowly conformed to that same idea with the hopes of making more $$.
Its sad to see that new games dont just take a chance and go thier own way.