When CCP came out with EVE, it was sort of their mission to create a sandbox-like space MMO. But they were not a "big" company. And it fills a niche of about 300k people.
Most MMOs would be successful with that size niche.
Well, they weren't always at 300k. They have slowly risen over time. In the beginning (MArch 2003), the game had a smaller playerbase and there were a lot of below average reviews. It honestly didn't look like it was going to make it for a while. This particular site didn't even review it till mid-late 2004.
They took a business risk with EVE, but CCP had a mission for this game from the beginning. And it ended up well after all. But in my opinion, not wanting to take that kind of risk if you are an MMO developer makes sense. After all, development companies are for profit.
It is, though, definitely a niche game. A player base of subs in the millions is mainstream.
I'm gonna make this really direct and to the point. I very unhappy with the current selection of sandbox style mmos out there right now. I've been gaming for a long time (15+ years) and there is really nothing out there that excites me. I want a really good sandbox fantasy mmo. There have been a few glimmers of hope, with Darkfall and Mortal Online, but both seem to be fizzling out. I dont think Im alone in feeling this way. My question is... Why arent any major companies making Sandbox mmos? Both Darkfall and MO are made by very small companies, just not capable of delivering the gaming experience and qualitly I want in a game. I know some will say that the sandbox hardcore player base is just not big enough to make a game profitable, but I have to disagree. Just a quick look at forums across the web the show that many many others are looking for a quality sandbox mmo. I think if a major company would put out a polished high quality sandbox mmo, unlike this sloppy 10 year old looking stuff we are getting recently, they would be incredibly succesful, and would blow the genre way open for others to follow.
There are no real "sandbox" games out there because that's not what the masses want.
A sandbox is a toy, not a game. It's something to play with, manipulate as you please, and then scrap it all and start over if you're not happy with it.
Think of the simplest toy available, one that everyone around the world is familiar with... a ball. A ball is a toy. By itself, you can bounce it off the ground and catch it. You can throw it against a wall and catch it. You can throw it to another person and have them catch it, and then throw it back to you so you can... catch it. Hundreds of millions of children all around the world play with a ball every day.
Adults don't.
Adults crave structure and purpose. They take that ball and they design rules for playing and then they create a game. Basketball is a game. Baseball is a game. Football is a game. All of these games use a toy, and then apply rules, structure, and conditions for winning. This is what adults want. If that weren't so, then we'd all be playing catch with one another in our spare time, rather than watching (or playing) the games I mentioned.
The same thing goes for MMOs. EVE Online is the closest thing we have right now to a succesful "sandbox" MMO. EVE Online has rules and structure. The folks at CCP recognized long ago that they wouldn't be able to survive on the revenue from the sandbox crowd alone. They added content that gave players an opportunity to play their game on a more casual basis. They did this because they recognized that this is what most people want.
You may not agree, but that's not a requirement. The facts speak for themselves.
When CCP came out with EVE, it was sort of their mission to create a sandbox-like space MMO. But they were not a "big" company. And it fills a niche of about 300k people.
Most MMOs would be successful with that size niche.
Well, they weren't always at 300k. They have slowly risen over time. In the beginning (MArch 2003), the game had a smaller playerbase and there were a lot of below average reviews. It honestly didn't look like it was going to make it for a while. This particular site didn't even review it till mid-late 2004.
They took a business risk with EVE, but CCP had a mission for this game from the beginning. And it ended up well after all. But in my opinion, not wanting to take that kind of risk if you are an MMO developer makes sense. After all, development companies are for profit.
It is, though, definitely a niche game. A player base of subs in the millions is mainstream.
So basically on my side of the world only WoW is "mainstream"?
I think people need to get away from the WoW sub number equals success or non-niche.
Wow is a freak of nature, Look at all the other mmos in NA/Euro. Whats the average sub number? 100k? 150k?
As time goes on I think we need to start looking at that massive amount of MMOs falling into the 100-500k range as "mainstream" While niche would be sub 100k numbers.
It's unfair to judge an entire genre on one game that released over five years ago.
It is, though, definitely a niche game. A player base of subs in the millions is mainstream.
Can there be multiple mainstreams?
Can Pepsi and Coke both be mainstream?
They're basically the same thing; what if they're not?
Both of them are mainstream. And I would argue that RC Cola is trying to be even if it isn't.
So if WoW is Coke, basically the most mainstream MMO, then games like Aion or Warhammer are RC Cola and Diet Rite. Very themepark based MMOs that tried to follow the brand name that made it.
So basically on my side of the world only WoW is "mainstream"? I think people need to get away from the WoW sub number equals success or non-niche.
Wow is a freak of nature, Look at all the other mmos in NA/Euro. Whats the average sub number? 100k? 150k?
As time goes on I think we need to start looking at that massive amount of MMOs falling into the 100-500k range as "mainstream" While niche would be sub 100k numbers.
It's unfair to judge an entire genre on one game that released over five years ago.
So when a game becomes too popular, it can't be considered mainstream anymore, because it has 'too many' players? That makes no sense.
WoW's success is not normal, but it's still as mainstream as it gets. Ignoring it completely and calling smaller games 'mainstream' instead is the weirdest thing I've heard today.
Using LOL is like saying "my argument sucks but I still want to disagree".
Both of them are mainstream. And I would argue that RC Cola is trying to be even if it isn't.
So if WoW is Coke, basically the most mainstream MMO, then games like Aion or Warhammer are RC Cola and Diet Rite. Very themepark based MMOs that tried to follow the brand name that made it.
And a sandbox MMO like EVE is a Potato.
Can Coke and say, Mountain Dew both be mainstream? When lets say Coke sells 12billion bottles a year and Dew only 3.
I'm not talking about copies, I'm talking about games that do things differently and are still successful.
Using LOL is like saying "my argument sucks but I still want to disagree".
So when a game becomes too popular, it can't be considered mainstream anymore, because it has 'too many' players? That makes no sense. WoW's success is not normal, but it's still as mainstream as it gets. Ignoring it completely and calling smaller games 'mainstream' instead is the weirdest thing I've heard today.
I agree, but it's only 9:30 AM here.
"" Voice acting isn't an RPG element....it's just a production value." - grumpymel2
So basically on my side of the world only WoW is "mainstream"? I think people need to get away from the WoW sub number equals success or non-niche.
Wow is a freak of nature, Look at all the other mmos in NA/Euro. Whats the average sub number? 100k? 150k?
As time goes on I think we need to start looking at that massive amount of MMOs falling into the 100-500k range as "mainstream" While niche would be sub 100k numbers.
It's unfair to judge an entire genre on one game that released over five years ago.
So when a game becomes too popular, it can't be considered mainstream anymore, because it has 'too many' players? That makes no sense.
No it's mainstream but labeling everything niche due to one game makes no sense.
WoW's success is not normal, but it's still as mainstream as it gets. Ignoring it completely and calling smaller games 'mainstream' instead is the weirdest thing I've heard today.
Not as weird as labeling over 200 MMOs "niche" because of one game released five years ago.
This is like saying Every Rpg is niche because they don't sell like Final Fantasy or Every action game is Niche because it doesn't sell like GTA or Halo.
It's dumb.
You realize we're the only ones in a videogame genre that do this right? it's beyond asinine!
When CCP came out with EVE, it was sort of their mission to create a sandbox-like space MMO. But they were not a "big" company. And it fills a niche of about 300k people.
Most MMOs would be successful with that size niche.
Well, they weren't always at 300k. They have slowly risen over time. In the beginning (MArch 2003), the game had a smaller playerbase and there were a lot of below average reviews. It honestly didn't look like it was going to make it for a while. This particular site didn't even review it till mid-late 2004.
They took a business risk with EVE, but CCP had a mission for this game from the beginning. And it ended up well after all. But in my opinion, not wanting to take that kind of risk if you are an MMO developer makes sense. After all, development companies are for profit.
It is, though, definitely a niche game. A player base of subs in the millions is mainstream.
So basically on my side of the world only WoW is "mainstream"?
I think people need to get away from the WoW sub number equals success or non-niche.
Wow is a freak of nature, Look at all the other mmos in NA/Euro. Whats the average sub number? 100k? 150k?
As time goes on I think we need to start looking at that massive amount of MMOs falling into the 100-500k range as "mainstream" While niche would be sub 100k numbers.
It's unfair to judge an entire genre on one game that released over five years ago.
At the moment to argue that any mmorpg other than WoW is mainstream would seem to me to be unreasonable. I think the market for mmorpg in Western countries is large enough to support a few mainstream games, I think as many as three. It may seem unfair to you, but less than a million subs would seem to indicate to me a niche game, that doesn't mean the game isn't good, but, for whatever reasons, it can't quite catch the imagination of a large proportion of the game playing people of the West.
Not as weird as labeling over 200 MMOs "niche" because of one game released five years ago. This is like saying Every Rpg is niche because they don't sell like Final Fantasy or Every action game is Niche because it doesn't sell like GTA or Halo.
It's dumb.
You realize we're the only ones in a videogame genre that do this right? it's beyond asinine!
Over 200 MMO's, but maybe 3 or 4 different types of MMO's..
We have like 180 versions of Coke and then the rest. You're right, this is the only genre that do this, it's funny.
Those 4 different types of MMO's may be niche, the rest are just copies.
Using LOL is like saying "my argument sucks but I still want to disagree".
Wow really isn't a freak of nature. They just managed to reach the mainstream audience. Something MMOs haven't done before. If you compare Wow to other really mainstream, casual games such as facebook games (farmville, mafia wars etc etc) they are pretty small. Farmville has over 30 million active monthly users!
How many players does it take to justify calling a game niche and how many players does it take to justify calling a game mainstream?
I, for one, don't think that either of those terms can necessarily be assigned based on the population playing a game, since they change meaning over time. I think that gameplay can sometimes determine niche or mainstream.
Like, I would call Aion, LotRO, WoW, EQ2, AoC and WAR mainstream games regardless of current subscription numbers. I would call Fallen Earth, EVE, Atlantica Online and Chronicles of Spellborn niche games regardless of current subscription numbers.
For me, "mainstream MMO" means: Swords and Sorcery Theme park Class-based Mainly PvE content because those are the mechanics that most MMO players seem to prefer. It has nothing to do with actual success, just style.
+ same UI, combat system, crafting and leveling progression as in you-know-which-game.
Also, both PvP and PvE at the same time.
Using LOL is like saying "my argument sucks but I still want to disagree".
How many players does it take to justify calling a game niche and how many players does it take to justify calling a game mainstream?
I, for one, don't think that either of those terms can necessarily be assigned based on the population playing a game, since they change meaning over time. I think that gameplay can sometimes determine niche or mainstream.
Like, I would call Aion, LotRO, WoW, EQ2, AoC and WAR mainstream games regardless of current subscription numbers. I would call Fallen Earth, EVE, Atlantica Online and Chronicles of Spellborn niche games regardless of current subscription numbers.
So if the gameplay significantly differs from these titles, regardless of subscription numbers, the game would be a niche?
Using LOL is like saying "my argument sucks but I still want to disagree".
How many players does it take to justify calling a game niche and how many players does it take to justify calling a game mainstream?
I, for one, don't think that either of those terms can necessarily be assigned based on the population playing a game, since they change meaning over time. I think that gameplay can sometimes determine niche or mainstream.
Like, I would call Aion, LotRO, WoW, EQ2, AoC and WAR mainstream games regardless of current subscription numbers. I would call Fallen Earth, EVE, Atlantica Online and Chronicles of Spellborn niche games regardless of current subscription numbers.
So if the gameplay significantly differs from these titles, regardless of subscription numbers, the game would be a niche?
I think that at least at the point where we are with MMOs, it should at least be considered. I would have put Tabula Rasa in there as well. They are all MMOs that are not mainstream in design.
Edit: And I just noticed MMO-Doubter feels the same way.
So let's say if a big company makes a game that is maybe 70% themepark, 30% sandbox, not class based, with sci-fi elements, with no PvP, different battle system and UI would that be mainstream anymore? Where does the line go?
Using LOL is like saying "my argument sucks but I still want to disagree".
So let's say if a big company makes a game that is maybe 70% themepark, 30% sandbox, not class based, with sci-fi elements, with no PvP, different battle system and UI would that be mainstream anymore? Where does the line go?
Everything is subjective. The line is as wide as a football field is long. But I will say this, out of the games I listed, it is very obvious to the player whether or not they are playing a mainstream game or a niche game.
So let's say if a big company makes a game that is maybe 70% themepark, 30% sandbox, not class based, with sci-fi elements, with no PvP, different battle system and UI would that be mainstream anymore? Where does the line go?
That one would definitely be niche.
"" Voice acting isn't an RPG element....it's just a production value." - grumpymel2
For me, "mainstream MMO" means: Swords and Sorcery Theme park Class-based Mainly PvE content because those are the mechanics that most MMO players seem to prefer. It has nothing to do with actual success, just style.
+ same UI, combat system, crafting and leveling progression as in you-know-which-game.
Also, both PvP and PvE at the same time.
Seems sensible.
"Mainstream" has to be defined by game mechanics. Subscription numbers are misleading. WAR is down to what, 200-300k subs? .. doesn't make it a niche game, just makes it a crappy and failing mainstream game.
Playing: EVE, Final Fantasy 13, Uncharted 2, Need for Speed: Shift
Comments
I think its because most people want a clear goal/direction to aim towards. It's kind of missing in a sandbox.
Most MMOs would be successful with that size niche.
Well, they weren't always at 300k. They have slowly risen over time. In the beginning (MArch 2003), the game had a smaller playerbase and there were a lot of below average reviews. It honestly didn't look like it was going to make it for a while. This particular site didn't even review it till mid-late 2004.
They took a business risk with EVE, but CCP had a mission for this game from the beginning. And it ended up well after all. But in my opinion, not wanting to take that kind of risk if you are an MMO developer makes sense. After all, development companies are for profit.
It is, though, definitely a niche game. A player base of subs in the millions is mainstream.
Can there be multiple mainstreams?
Can there be multiple mainstreams?
Can Pepsi and Coke both be mainstream?
Can there be multiple mainstreams?
Can Pepsi and Coke both be mainstream?
They're basically the same thing; what if they're not?
There are no real "sandbox" games out there because that's not what the masses want.
A sandbox is a toy, not a game. It's something to play with, manipulate as you please, and then scrap it all and start over if you're not happy with it.
Think of the simplest toy available, one that everyone around the world is familiar with... a ball. A ball is a toy. By itself, you can bounce it off the ground and catch it. You can throw it against a wall and catch it. You can throw it to another person and have them catch it, and then throw it back to you so you can... catch it. Hundreds of millions of children all around the world play with a ball every day.
Adults don't.
Adults crave structure and purpose. They take that ball and they design rules for playing and then they create a game. Basketball is a game. Baseball is a game. Football is a game. All of these games use a toy, and then apply rules, structure, and conditions for winning. This is what adults want. If that weren't so, then we'd all be playing catch with one another in our spare time, rather than watching (or playing) the games I mentioned.
The same thing goes for MMOs. EVE Online is the closest thing we have right now to a succesful "sandbox" MMO. EVE Online has rules and structure. The folks at CCP recognized long ago that they wouldn't be able to survive on the revenue from the sandbox crowd alone. They added content that gave players an opportunity to play their game on a more casual basis. They did this because they recognized that this is what most people want.
You may not agree, but that's not a requirement. The facts speak for themselves.
I agree with this 100%
Most MMOs would be successful with that size niche.
Well, they weren't always at 300k. They have slowly risen over time. In the beginning (MArch 2003), the game had a smaller playerbase and there were a lot of below average reviews. It honestly didn't look like it was going to make it for a while. This particular site didn't even review it till mid-late 2004.
They took a business risk with EVE, but CCP had a mission for this game from the beginning. And it ended up well after all. But in my opinion, not wanting to take that kind of risk if you are an MMO developer makes sense. After all, development companies are for profit.
It is, though, definitely a niche game. A player base of subs in the millions is mainstream.
So basically on my side of the world only WoW is "mainstream"?
I think people need to get away from the WoW sub number equals success or non-niche.
Wow is a freak of nature, Look at all the other mmos in NA/Euro. Whats the average sub number? 100k? 150k?
As time goes on I think we need to start looking at that massive amount of MMOs falling into the 100-500k range as "mainstream" While niche would be sub 100k numbers.
It's unfair to judge an entire genre on one game that released over five years ago.
PLaying: EvE, Ryzom
Waiting For: Earthrise, Perpetuum
Can there be multiple mainstreams?
Can Pepsi and Coke both be mainstream?
They're basically the same thing; what if they're not?
Both of them are mainstream. And I would argue that RC Cola is trying to be even if it isn't.
So if WoW is Coke, basically the most mainstream MMO, then games like Aion or Warhammer are RC Cola and Diet Rite. Very themepark based MMOs that tried to follow the brand name that made it.
And a sandbox MMO like EVE is a Potato.
So when a game becomes too popular, it can't be considered mainstream anymore, because it has 'too many' players? That makes no sense.
WoW's success is not normal, but it's still as mainstream as it gets. Ignoring it completely and calling smaller games 'mainstream' instead is the weirdest thing I've heard today.
Can Coke and say, Mountain Dew both be mainstream? When lets say Coke sells 12billion bottles a year and Dew only 3.
I'm not talking about copies, I'm talking about games that do things differently and are still successful.
I agree, but it's only 9:30 AM here.
"" Voice acting isn't an RPG element....it's just a production value." - grumpymel2
So when a game becomes too popular, it can't be considered mainstream anymore, because it has 'too many' players? That makes no sense.
No it's mainstream but labeling everything niche due to one game makes no sense.
WoW's success is not normal, but it's still as mainstream as it gets. Ignoring it completely and calling smaller games 'mainstream' instead is the weirdest thing I've heard today.
Not as weird as labeling over 200 MMOs "niche" because of one game released five years ago.
This is like saying Every Rpg is niche because they don't sell like Final Fantasy or Every action game is Niche because it doesn't sell like GTA or Halo.
It's dumb.
You realize we're the only ones in a videogame genre that do this right? it's beyond asinine!
PLaying: EvE, Ryzom
Waiting For: Earthrise, Perpetuum
Most MMOs would be successful with that size niche.
Well, they weren't always at 300k. They have slowly risen over time. In the beginning (MArch 2003), the game had a smaller playerbase and there were a lot of below average reviews. It honestly didn't look like it was going to make it for a while. This particular site didn't even review it till mid-late 2004.
They took a business risk with EVE, but CCP had a mission for this game from the beginning. And it ended up well after all. But in my opinion, not wanting to take that kind of risk if you are an MMO developer makes sense. After all, development companies are for profit.
It is, though, definitely a niche game. A player base of subs in the millions is mainstream.
So basically on my side of the world only WoW is "mainstream"?
I think people need to get away from the WoW sub number equals success or non-niche.
Wow is a freak of nature, Look at all the other mmos in NA/Euro. Whats the average sub number? 100k? 150k?
As time goes on I think we need to start looking at that massive amount of MMOs falling into the 100-500k range as "mainstream" While niche would be sub 100k numbers.
It's unfair to judge an entire genre on one game that released over five years ago.
At the moment to argue that any mmorpg other than WoW is mainstream would seem to me to be unreasonable. I think the market for mmorpg in Western countries is large enough to support a few mainstream games, I think as many as three. It may seem unfair to you, but less than a million subs would seem to indicate to me a niche game, that doesn't mean the game isn't good, but, for whatever reasons, it can't quite catch the imagination of a large proportion of the game playing people of the West.
Over 200 MMO's, but maybe 3 or 4 different types of MMO's..
We have like 180 versions of Coke and then the rest. You're right, this is the only genre that do this, it's funny.
Those 4 different types of MMO's may be niche, the rest are just copies.
For me, "mainstream MMO" means:
Swords and Sorcery
Theme park
Class-based
Mainly PvE content
because those are the mechanics that most MMO players seem to prefer. It has nothing to do with actual success, just style.
"" Voice acting isn't an RPG element....it's just a production value." - grumpymel2
Wow really isn't a freak of nature. They just managed to reach the mainstream audience. Something MMOs haven't done before. If you compare Wow to other really mainstream, casual games such as facebook games (farmville, mafia wars etc etc) they are pretty small. Farmville has over 30 million active monthly users!
I guess it turned into a semantics thing.
How many players does it take to justify calling a game niche and how many players does it take to justify calling a game mainstream?
I, for one, don't think that either of those terms can necessarily be assigned based on the population playing a game, since they change meaning over time. I think that gameplay can sometimes determine niche or mainstream.
Like, I would call Aion, LotRO, WoW, EQ2, AoC and WAR mainstream games regardless of current subscription numbers. I would call Fallen Earth, EVE, Atlantica Online and Chronicles of Spellborn niche games regardless of current subscription numbers.
+ same UI, combat system, crafting and leveling progression as in you-know-which-game.
Also, both PvP and PvE at the same time.
So if the gameplay significantly differs from these titles, regardless of subscription numbers, the game would be a niche?
So if the gameplay significantly differs from these titles, regardless of subscription numbers, the game would be a niche?
I think that at least at the point where we are with MMOs, it should at least be considered. I would have put Tabula Rasa in there as well. They are all MMOs that are not mainstream in design.
Edit: And I just noticed MMO-Doubter feels the same way.
So let's say if a big company makes a game that is maybe 70% themepark, 30% sandbox, not class based, with sci-fi elements, with no PvP, different battle system and UI would that be mainstream anymore? Where does the line go?
Everything is subjective. The line is as wide as a football field is long. But I will say this, out of the games I listed, it is very obvious to the player whether or not they are playing a mainstream game or a niche game.
That one would definitely be niche.
"" Voice acting isn't an RPG element....it's just a production value." - grumpymel2
+ same UI, combat system, crafting and leveling progression as in you-know-which-game.
Also, both PvP and PvE at the same time.
Seems sensible.
"Mainstream" has to be defined by game mechanics. Subscription numbers are misleading. WAR is down to what, 200-300k subs? .. doesn't make it a niche game, just makes it a crappy and failing mainstream game.
Playing: EVE, Final Fantasy 13, Uncharted 2, Need for Speed: Shift
Sandbox is a term that needs to be re-defined.
Like life. People have so many different views of it and no two definitions are the same.