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I have this simple Idea for grouping >_>
Gorakkh
Member Posts: 694
Now I understand this Idea has It's own problems but It's better than making everything soloable in my opinion.
Also if you have better Ideas to help grouping in MMORPG's please don't be shy about posting them. But don't just attack me for my idea >_> >_< (-__-)
Ever play a group based game and your LFG, and in the desired zone there's maybe 3 to 5 groups going but they are all full? And no one in the group is planning on leaving anytime soon.
So here's my Idea, really It's quite simple. Why not remove a hard cap on grouping limits and remove the EXP penalty for more group members? Got a group of a tank, 1 or 2 healers, and 3 dps? Why not let another tank, healer or dps be added to the equation. 3 DPS and a 1 tank LFG but you already have a capped group of 6? Why not remove that cap let them join, and share no exp penalty?
Sure, that would make some of the content maybe easy and you could steamroll things, but that can be fun at times too. I'm sure a seasoned developer could work something out to make It all work nicely.
Then there's the opposite side of the equation, little to no one to group with. This is why I think duo and trio content should be there, at least some of the content in a zone should have duo and trio stuff.
Now there's some rough edges in these Ideas I know, but I think It could work If smart enough developers thought about how to implement It smoothly into the game design.
Your comments, thoughts and ideas are appreciated.
Comments
Steamrolling dungeons gets old REALLY fast. It's the same as getting a runthrough. It stops being a game when you have no chance to fail.
What I would like to see in these games is some scalable dungeons that adjust to the party size, but they would have to prevent people joining after the instance starts.
"" Voice acting isn't an RPG element....it's just a production value." - grumpymel2
The steam roleing idea is a bad idea because all leveling would be is a big zerg fest and no one would want to level in a normal pt. I personally would get board of that very fast. FFXI gave the exp penalty for more than one pt for a very good reason.
I would like to see more duo and trio as well, the problem ffxi had is if you were duoing and trioing then you could never LFG to find a full PT.
SO my solution is have an option for people who are in a duo and trio group (or more) thats not a full pt have the ability to LFG as a sub pt, and be able to add members or let other sub parties see them LFG.
Waiting for:EQ-Next, ArcheAge (not so much anymore)
Now Playing: N/A
Worst MMO: FFXIV
Favorite MMO: FFXI
Or can do it like the old days of FFXI. So you don't get invited to a party and you asked the group leader if anyone is leaving. If no one is leaving here is a simple solution "MPK THEM". Go agro a group of mobs they are grouping on and make a big train then run up to the group and circle them. Once a good number of mobs have came close let them kill you and then that mob will link with the mob they are grouping with which will hopefully wipe them out. When all of that is done then ask the group leader if anyone is leaving. If the answer is still no than rinse and repeat with them or another group. Moral of the story is if you can't get a group just MPK everyone so no one else can group!!!
PS. To those who don't have a sense of humor this is a joke and not to be taken serious. MPKing at time is very funny it can also be unpleasant so please don't MPK anyone unless you are wiling to take the consequences of getting banned or flamed.
I actaully really like that idea. It would be awesome.
I hoping one of these days a MMO will come up with a a better LFG system. Its sad to see the lack of progress. Lets face it, the put up LFG, cross your fingers and hope a group comes and finds you doesn't work.
I always picutred a menu that listed all groups in the area, and all people LFG in the area. Someone LFG could pick and choose from active groups or could apply to all of them at once or just a couple. Groups that aren't full could have easy acess to a list of people looking that would fill the roles in the group. I also picture this having an auto-accept feature where the group specifies the classes/lvls they'll take and if you fit the description then your in. This should also include a waiting list. So the second someone drops out of a full group someone who's been waiting is automatically accepted.
This could cause problems with people that don't play well or are annoying, but thats what a boot function is for.
I will tell you that the problem is bigger than group limits and such,the problem as in most game problems lies with the players.
I have done quests in several different games that only pop up like 2-3 times a day.Ok that is VERY limited,so you would think ,when someone decides to form a group"if" they form a group,they would tell others in chat,so others can join and get the tough quest/s done.
What i have actually seen on MANY occasion is players will selfishly go alone with a high level guildie to hold their hand,and not care one bit about their fellow gamers.So while they are all cool receiving help,they are not so quick to help others,and this i have seen/witnessed A LOT.
So now this single player will complete a quest removing the chance for anyone else for several more hours before you can do it again.What makes the scenario worse is the fact you can clearly see there is others at the same location ,and there is only one reason for being there,to do that quest/s.
IMO these are not only selfish but rude players,those that receive help and never give back,i try to remember these players and totally ignore them or not buy anything off them from the AH,but it is hard to remember so many.
So you could make every mechanic possible to make grouping work,how are you going to convince others to take part?There is not only the selfish but ,what is the word? Introvert?how are you going to change introverts into extroverts?Grouping just makes sense,it is the reason you should be playing online,but you really have an impossible task of changing personalities,this is the biggest problem of all.
Never forget 3 mile Island and never trust a government official or company spokesman.
Ah MPK that brings back some fond memory's. (No noob was safe Kraken will always get you) Those were the good days in FFXI.
Hopefully the guildleve system will be designed such that you can't have a high-level/skill player power you through the quest (either by not allowing it or scaling their level/skill down to an appropriate number).
I agree with the poster who suggested having a more robust LFP interface. I also think parties should be able to summon people, so that eliminates the worry about what zone someone is in when looking for a replacement. I used to spend a lot of my LFP time skilling up different weapons in FFXI and often got passed over because others would camp out in the zone the parties were in (so of course they always got picked first). Even though I had all of the outpost teleporters available, if I wasn't in the same zone, or at least in Jeuno to get a teleport, I was ignored.
Yeah thats exactly how CoX did it (apart from the invite thing) and it was a great system...why arent devs copying this?!
From what I've ready they AREN'T using the Holy Trinity (Tank-Healer-DPS) system, so grouping should be a lot easier. If it is solo friendly, then it should fairly easily be duo, trio, etc friendly as well. If you got a friend with you, then you can take on slightly harder guys, if you have two friends, even harder ones. Assuming one isn't punished harshly for attacking guys higher in level than you.
Hmm, theoretically, they could have the system work something like this:
All monsters come in groups. If you are level X, then you can handle a group of level X monsters. Two level X people can handle a group of level X+2 monsters. Three level X people can handle a group of level X+4 monsters. Four level X people can handle a group of level X+6 monsters. Or something roughly like that (e.g. groups let you handle higher level monsters, and since things are seem to mostly be in group vs. group combat from what has been said so far, the above system would work, though I suppose they could start off with single monsters and add groups of monsters later, but then there's a messy transition whereas what I wrote would work nicely even for people starting the game with a friend).
I do like the idea of scaling a dungeon based on your party size. It would be nice to be able to go in and duo a dungeon...that said, you should be able to declare your party size as larger than it is (kinda like Heroic Mode Dungeons in WoW) so that you can have an extra challenge and better loot if you have the skill to handle it.
Yeah thats exactly how CoX did it (apart from the invite thing) and it was a great system...why arent devs copying this?!
First time i played a scalable dungeon was in EQ2,i thought it was great.But now i realize it is not the answer,unless you are talkiing about maintaining the group needed.Once you start to scale to the group size then it fails bigtime,that would once again totally remove grouping from the game,i do not want to turn ANY MMORPG into a single player game,that is not the purpose to playing a MMORPG .
In EQ2 you could scale the dungeon but the difficulty would remain the same,it did not matter if you have 3 players or 6.If you scaled it down to a level 10 from a level 20 then you still needed a level 10 group.This really is not neccessary anymore,by allowing players to scale themselves down [mentor]to the groups level,there is no need for scaling.
Not only that but how would it be possible to scale down to a single player from say a group of 6?A single player has far less access to skills and spells that a group would,example using FFXI..a single player may not have dispel/Dia/warcry/slow/gravity/paralyze ect ect.The ONLY way that could work is you would have to create a totally different AI for each scenario from 1 player to however many.If you made the AI so weak that a single player could handle him,then imagine how easy a group full of enfeebs and buffs could handle that AI?
No matter how easy it sounds on paper,you can NEVER have a solo game co exist with a grouping game,it has tobe either or.The closer your game leans towards soloing the easier the game becomes,i do not think players that enjoy a FF game want to turn it into easy mode so even a 10 year old could fly through the game with little effort.
Never forget 3 mile Island and never trust a government official or company spokesman.
It's not that hard, really. You program some small degree of cooperation with multiple AI mobs (since it is already groups of AI mobs, this should be done anyhow). You then have the number of mobs scale with players. So perhaps 2 players might mean 4 mobs; 3 players, 7; 4 players, 11; 5 players 15; 6 players, 21. Slightly more mobs for larger groups can compensate for the increased amount of cooperation and synergy such a group will have. There is plenty of evidence that questing is scalable, given what they've said about Guildleves (which can be soloed or done with someone else and you don't even need to have the exact same choices selected on a Leve) -- and the Leves should be easily doable by having mobs spawn as part of doing the quest (how many mobs depending on your party size).
Or...groups of 4? So far we've only seen a couple of variants on classes (though we all know that SE will release TONS more) so at launch there will be tons of tanks,dps, and healers. Why not increase # of mobs in the zone OR # of viable camps per zone and lower the cap on a group to say 4? This will make forming a party much easier, faster, simpler AND make those that want a casual hop in and out type game viable.
The reason why FFXI was great in normal party mode was because it was a group versus 1 mob.As soon as you introduce multiple mobs the combat is sloppy and imo uncreative,because you have each player doing their own thing,witch defeats the purpose of group co ordination.
That is the one part in other games i did not like,even then they kept it real cheap,the grouped mobs were notrhing more than a real hard single mob divided into several weaker mobs.There is another reason i don't like a game that allows any player to tank multiple mobs is it creates a real cheap way to get xp,i don't want the game i play to represent cheap combat.This is done and shown in other games by having a tank aggro tons of mobs thenm you get a few mages to AOE kil lthem all,for fast massive xp,imo it is not creative and is cheap.
Never forget 3 mile Island and never trust a government official or company spokesman.
Remember those days when your NIN tank would blow himself up at the first site of a link even though me as the BLM slept them 30 seconds ago and it took them that long to notice? ... Kinda like that one time I jokingly convinced my Japanese WHM to Tele-Dem (because our RNG was one mob away from dinging) just as the RNG pulled so when the RNG brought the tiger back to camp it was only a DRK and a PLD in the lowest part of Kuftal Tunnel (yeah people partied there back in the day) ... Or that time when I got drawn in on Proto-Ultima after it counted down to 1 (i got proof of that one if you haven't already seen it ... )
Or that time when the THF pulled Ullikummi instead of an Enkidu to an exp party (yeah people partied there back in the day) that wasn't ready for an NM and ended up taking over a half hour to beat it ... Or that time I got back to town after farming sheep skins in the highlands only to find a Mary's Horn in my inventory that dropped from the unnoticed Stray Mary I apparently killed ... Or time when that guy tired to hi-jack a thread with useless banter of the past ... I mean classic crap
That's easy to avoid. If you all do your own thing, then you die or at least very nearly die. If you don't cooperate and work together, then there are just too many mobs for you to be able to handle it. Beyond that there are plenty of examples in other games and real life where multiple mobs are anything but boring or uncreative (if anything, getting one guy and doing the same thing over and over and over tends to be uncreative compared to the chaos of a proper melee where you and your group has to work together).
On your comment about tanking and everyone else's for that matter, who the heck said there WERE tanks in FFXIV? They've said they are moving away from the Tank-Healer-DPS mechanic, yet everyone seems to act like it is still going to be there.
Deserves making two posts on this. From what I've read (I'll go look it up if necessary) the Devs have said they want to move away from the Tank-Healer-DPS mechanic, so there is every reason to think there aren't going to be classes specialized in that manner.
Deserves making two posts on this. From what I've read (I'll go look it up if necessary) the Devs have said they want to move away from the Tank-Healer-DPS mechanic, so there is every reason to think there aren't going to be classes specialized in that manner.
Too say that a Thaumaturge wont act similar to a BLM, or a Gladiator similar to a WAR or PLD, or Pugilist a MNK would just be dumb (I'm not calling you dumb). Sure they wont be as close to their ffxi counterparts but they WILL function the same (my opinion), though maybe theyll have a bit more utility. My point was that smaller groups are better for camping/etc. imo, larger groups sure for GODS and other end-game content, but PLEASE Square let party forming not be such a hassle/time sink.
Deserves making two posts on this. From what I've read (I'll go look it up if necessary) the Devs have said they want to move away from the Tank-Healer-DPS mechanic, so there is every reason to think there aren't going to be classes specialized in that manner.
Too say that a Thaumaturge wont act similar to a BLM, or a Gladiator similar to a WAR or PLD, or Pugilist a MNK would just be dumb (I'm not calling you dumb). Sure they wont be as close to their ffxi counterparts but they WILL function the same (my opinion), though maybe theyll have a bit more utility. My point was that smaller groups are better for camping/etc. imo, larger groups sure for GODS and other end-game content, but PLEASE Square let party forming not be such a hassle/time sink.
Hmm, quotes on the combat system and such:
From: http://www.ffxivcore.com/topic/1515-game-watch-interview-with-komoto-tanaka/
"That's about what we're aiming for. We're playing around with the concept of not including a set ideal number of people per party, so we don't really want to say that the max per party is six. We don't want to players to think mathematically about what makes the best combinations. We want parties to be fully functional, no matter how many people are in them."
Err, interesting comment: "Right. The guildleves we showed at Gamescom were also created to show this. In FFXI, the focus was on how to get one enemy away from its group and take it out, but this time we want players to think about what to do, how to position themselves, when more than one enemy approaches them."
From http://blog.us.playstation.com/2009/08/final-fantasy-xiv-gamescom-interview/
"Tanaka: For FFXI, the system was job based, so that’s why they had a party to make the most out of each job. This time it’s not going to be a job based system, it’s going to be an Armoury system, so it depends on which weapon you use and you can switch your class. That allows the player to use a different ability or skills. You can also join a party, that doesn’t mean you have to play solo, but it will allow you to play solo as well, because you can fight against monsters and you can change to a healer to heal yourself. So there will be more variety and it depends on what you plan on doing for that day."
From: http://www.ffxivcore.com/index.php?/topic/92-ffxiv-classes-revealed/
"The official site gives an example using a fictional character named "Leeroy." Leeroy begins as a Gladiator, but upon receiving an invitation to party with his friends, he realizes they already have enough melee power in their party. Therefore, Leeroy equips his staff, changing his class to Thaumaturge, a class under the Discipline of Magic. It does not seem like there has been any official confirmation of class names outside of that description, so the Japanese translations below are approximations based on previous Final Fantasy titles and are subject to change:"
"In order to increase in specific areas, Square Soft recommend to balance your equipment parts between the inventory slots. The level of your equipment is essential in Final Fantasy XIV, its more important than your character's "level" itself. Square Enix mention the freedom of the system yet again and that it becomes a lot more flexible and fun having such a system in place. The team behind FFXIV has deliberately chosen to avoid the usual job classes, instead chosing much more neutral names."
"The Mithra casting a barrier is an example of how the flow of battle could change. Instead of simply pulling and provoking, placement of characters and using abilities to assist each other could have much more impact. Developers have confirmed there will be battles where you face groups of monsters at a time, and the opportunities to effectively employ strategy will increase as well."
Hmm, having trouble finding the exact quote I was looking for. But I think the fact they want to make parties of ANY size work well is sign enough that the typical Tank-Healer-DPS mechanic is going to be dramatically changed at least -- especially considering that in a group battle (which will be the most common sort) positioning and dealing with what the enemy is doing are going to be dominating elements.
Edit: For a second I thought I was going crazy and might be mistaken about things, but here's the quote:
The "holy trinity" type of jobs (healer, tank, damage dealer) have been avoided, the jobs of FFXIV are far more neutral.
Now that's from FFXIVcore's wiki. Wish I could find the interview/whatever where they go over that more specifically, but I seem to be having trouble with that.
All of those quotes are easy for them to say but to see them execute it, then i'll be wrong.
Until then all i'm seeing is a switch from using a Moogle to switch jobs, to equipping a staff/sword/etc., a welcome change in my opinion. But the point is even they themselves have said "equip this to become this job" and jobs is what we're going to get, though like I said earlier each job will have more utility than we saw in FF11. Plus there will always be an "optimal" amount of party members to camp with. Sure you can have an alliance of 18+ or just you and a friend, and both can happen but a party of 6 usually worked best in FF11.
Well, what the Devs are saying they intend and are planning on doing is definitely more trustworthy than the random worries of people on the boards, right? It is possible they will fail, of course, but I don't think it is actually THAT hard to do what they want. We've seen plenty of games do this sort of thing in the past. The Baldur's Gate games are extremely old now, but in them position was important (due to area spells) and there were not pure tanks, pure healers, and pure damage dealers (DPS is the closest, but everyone soaked single-target damage to an extent, unlike almost all current MMOs). The thing is almost no one has wanted to try this with an MMO. So there is good reason to think they can pull that aspect off and have plenty of position-based considerations. Balancing class abilities might be a bit tricky, but it is ALWAYS a bit tricky, so there's nothing that new there either.
And granted, you'll have different jobs (though they seem to want everyone uses classes, but both are basically the same thing). That just means different jobs do different things. You want to be an archer and have archer stuff? Then you need the archer job. Want to cast fireballs, then you need one of the caster jobs. Want to go in with a big sword and shield? You'll need the right warrior job. Each of those jobs would have a different flavor and hence different abilities (guy with a shield might be able to protect nearby allies with said shield and hence have abilities for that), and those abilities make them different sure. That doesn't mean they necessarily get lumped into the tank, healer, or damage dealer groups. Adjust damage output so you don't need massive amounts of healing against one mob, give players the abilities to slow down and debuff enemy mobs, protect themselves and others, and so forth and healing isn't needed to the same extent at all, so a "you just heal stuff" role in a party wouldn't even be needed OR desired (but maybe they'll be a job that heals some, makes barries to protect allies, and curses bad guys or something). Similarly, you might not have a tank role, but a guy with a shield can do SOME protection of allies here and there, and maybe that's something a Lancer can't do as well. So maybe a good party would probably have to have some guys that mitigate damage/protect others (though those jobs would still do decent damage, I bet), and some jobs that change the battlefield/debuff monsters and deal damage. There are probably some other combinations too. Point is, combat would be more like a grand melee where anyone can and does get hit, and the object is to generally minimize those hits, but having a single tank just wouldn't work because no one has that sort of aggro ability nor would the relatively limited healing capability be able to keep up with the damage to one target all at once that would entail.
Anyhow, as far as party size is concerned, they've said a lot of stuff indicating that they want things good for all party sizes. (I think I quoted some of that). Easy enough to do if you make custom parties for guildleves and monsters essentially spawn for your group (then you can automatically scale the difficulty for your group size). Seems they are going this way since one of them said Guildleves were "instance-like" though I hope one can still run across and make friends on travels.