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Attention! all sandbox devs that plan on copying UO.
metalhead980
Member Posts: 2,658
Do not included the tedious mechanics that were in UO.
UO has a ton of freaking awesome mechanics/features in its game for you to borrow from.
Clicking on a fucking tree ten million times to level up my skill is not one of them.
We've moved beyond this no need to take that and put it in your game.
PLaying: EvE, Ryzom
Waiting For: Earthrise, Perpetuum
Comments
How is clicking on a tree ten million times to reach GM and get wood for crafting any different than swinging your sword ten million times to reach gm swords so you can kill dragons? At least it was simple...if you didn't want to cut trees...you didn't have to. Didn't want to swing swords all day...you didn't have to.
I would gladly cut trees, or swing swords, or any other skill over a leveling system. At least then I could do what I wanted to do rather than being led around like an ass following a carrot on a stick.
Hmmm I dont see where I said anything about being lead around and following a carrot on the stick in my OP.
Anyway... you honestly have fun standing in one area clicking the same tree over and over and over for months?
Of course not.
At least with killing mobs you get to visit other locations and fight creatures of different difficulty levels. A tree is a tree is a tree.
PLaying: EvE, Ryzom
Waiting For: Earthrise, Perpetuum
Anything that can be done or needs to be done with a macro should not belong in a game.
I skate to where the puck is going to be, not where it has been -Wayne Gretzky
Hmmm I dont see where I said anything about being lead around and following a carrot on the stick in my OP.
Anyway... you honestly have fun standing in one area clicking the same tree over and over and over for months?
Of course not.
At least with killing mobs you get to visit other locations and fight creatures of different difficulty levels. A tree is a tree is a tree.
That is your view on it. There are many people that do not mind standing around cutting trees down and doing things like that. Just as you do not like standing there cutting down trees so you dont do it.
But thats not really the issue here. The issue is being able to choice and do what you want when you want within the confines of the game world. That is what makes a game a sandbox game and makes Ultima Online still one of the greatest MMO's to this date. Your not forced to do anything, but if you want to the option is there. You pick and choice when, where, and what you do. The does not do it for it.
One of the problems with todays gamers are that they like to be hand held and forced to follow a certain path. This way they can see that they have made progress along that path. Gamers no longer set goals for themselfs and create there own adventures they make a dev do that for them and thus we have come to the age of theme park MMOs.
A good example (using Ultima Online as an example) is when you log into UO you decide what you want to do. Do I want to do some crafting today, exploring, dungeon crawling, ect. All of the options are open to you right from there start of the game. You do not have to meet any pre-requests of being XX level or having done XX like you do in most games. You can instantly hookup with your friends regardless of how long they have or have not played since in the grand scheme of things it doesnt matter as you can be effective to a group and not hurt the group (due to level, equipment, ect.)
Hmmm I dont see where I said anything about being lead around and following a carrot on the stick in my OP.
Anyway... you honestly have fun standing in one area clicking the same tree over and over and over for months?
Of course not.
At least with killing mobs you get to visit other locations and fight creatures of different difficulty levels. A tree is a tree is a tree.
Perhaps you didn't enjoy it...but many people did. Cutting trees, mining were a good source of income for many people. Because if was one of those tedious jobs. It was also a source for crafting material. I am not saying it was great..but it was part of the way of the game. With every skill in UO it took time to master...as the gathering process.
If people were able to just walk up to a tree and get all the wood they needed in one chop..then crafting woulda been pointless. Everybody woulda had crafters. And by that tone why not just swing your sword once and you become GM?
Well if your going to have a leveling/Class Themepark ride you need to add Sandbox qualities to your rides.Nobody wants stuck in one crappy ride all the time.AC and Istaria do good jobs in this aspect.Switch classes,add points to any skill you desire.Like many of you I can't play a themepark mmo for more then five minutes.
Then I think that rules out just about everything in a game. As anything can be macro'ed in a game. Rather is flying a ship or clicking an attack button. All of it can be macro'ed and there are people that do nothing but macro games.
This just points out another type of gameplay. It just points out that you do not enjoy them aspects of a game. But then ageain noone makes you do them aspects of a game if you do not enjoy them.
Hmmm I dont see where I said anything about being lead around and following a carrot on the stick in my OP.
Anyway... you honestly have fun standing in one area clicking the same tree over and over and over for months?
Of course not.
At least with killing mobs you get to visit other locations and fight creatures of different difficulty levels. A tree is a tree is a tree.
Perhaps you didn't enjoy it...but many people did. Cutting trees, mining were a good source of income for many people. Because if was one of those tedious jobs. It was also a source for crafting material. I am not saying it was great..but it was part of the way of the game. With every skill in UO it took time to master...as the gathering process.
If people were able to just walk up to a tree and get all the wood they needed in one chop..then crafting woulda been pointless. Everybody woulda had crafters. And by that tone why not just swing your sword once and you become GM?
Thats a good point. But it does show that by todays standards people just do not like to invest / work into achiveing something. They would rather it be handed to them as quickly and easily as possible. For some reasion people think games do not start until they reach the end of it. Most of that has to do with MMOs turning into Themeparks. A sandbox based MMO doesn't ever truely have a end to it as the game is ultimately only as deep as you make it out to be. Being open ended means that the players themselfs have to take an active role in defining there own goals. Something that is lost upon most of the new generation.
My compaint has nothing to do with handholding or not wanting to work for something in my mmo.
They can improve on a gathering mechanic. I'm sorry but chopping the same tree in the same location just by clicking every 3-10 seconds is not a good or fun mechanic.
Maybe have me explore for rare types of wood? make the harvesting mechanic more active? you can improve it over what games like DF are offering that seem to want to borrow from UO.
I don't understand how anyone could take my OP and think I want hand holding,want to rush to endgame or even put me in a category of a new mmo player when I've been playing these games even before UO lol!
Harvesting a tree is boring enough why must I click on the same tree in the same area all day, everyday for months?
Improve the mechanic make it more in depth and not some boring click fest.
It was shitty then and its even worse now!
PLaying: EvE, Ryzom
Waiting For: Earthrise, Perpetuum
huh? I have no idea how this relates to my OP at all.
Obviously games that copy UO are going to be sandbox games.
PLaying: EvE, Ryzom
Waiting For: Earthrise, Perpetuum
If you don't need to cut 10,000 logs OR make 10,000 swords to level up the economy fixes itself supply side. After all you don't have "achievers" gunning to max a skill, or "questers" aiming to fill a requirement.
I find it amazing that by 2020 first world countries will be competing to get immigrants.
My compaint has nothing to do with handholding or not wanting to work for something in my mmo.
They can improve on a gathering mechanic. I'm sorry but chopping the same tree in the same location just by clicking every 3-10 seconds is not a good or fun mechanic.
Maybe have me explore for rare types of wood? make the harvesting mechanic more active? you can improve it over what games like DF are offering that seem to want to borrow from UO.
I don't understand how anyone could take my OP and think I want hand holding,want to rush to endgame or even put me in a category of a new mmo player when I've been playing these games even before UO lol!
Harvesting a tree is boring enough why must I click on the same tree in the same area all day, everyday for months?
Improve the mechanic make it more in depth and not some boring click fest.
It was shitty then and its even worse now!
Well as someone who has played MMO's since before UO then you would have known that you do not just stand in the same exact place harvesting all day in the game. One the tree itself will run out of resources after several chops (also depends upon your skill in lumberjacking) and it generally takes around 3-5 mins for a tree to regrow. Also different trees do provide different types of wood. So that within itself encourages you to find types of trees that you need to reach your goal.
There is only so mcuh that can be done to improve on a basic mechanic like harvesting a tree. Would you rather a mini game popup where you have to match dots together to improve the quality of the wood you harvest? That sounds even more mondain and boring then clicking on the tree itself to harvest.
You have games like Wurm Online where you actually see the tree fall to the ground and disappear. Where it takes days/weeks for a tree to grow back. Trees have different growth levels and visuals, different types of trees, where age of the tree and your skill level effects the amount, quality, and type of item you get from it.
So there are games that expand upon it but as long as a mouse and keyboard are your only input devices there are going to be real limitations as to how you preform the action. There is not really much that can be done to improve upon it beyond what has been done. Themepark games will always remain simple and easy to achive type of games. Because they catar to them type of players.
My compaint has nothing to do with handholding or not wanting to work for something in my mmo.
They can improve on a gathering mechanic. I'm sorry but chopping the same tree in the same location just by clicking every 3-10 seconds is not a good or fun mechanic.
Maybe have me explore for rare types of wood? make the harvesting mechanic more active? you can improve it over what games like DF are offering that seem to want to borrow from UO.
I don't understand how anyone could take my OP and think I want hand holding,want to rush to endgame or even put me in a category of a new mmo player when I've been playing these games even before UO lol!
Harvesting a tree is boring enough why must I click on the same tree in the same area all day, everyday for months?
Improve the mechanic make it more in depth and not some boring click fest.
It was shitty then and its even worse now!
Well as someone who has played MMO's since before UO then you would have known that you do not just stand in the same exact place harvesting all day in the game. One the tree itself will run out of resources after several chops (also depends upon your skill in lumberjacking) and it generally takes around 3-5 mins for a tree to regrow. Also different trees do provide different types of wood. So that within itself encourages you to find types of trees that you need to reach your goal.
There is only so mcuh that can be done to improve on a basic mechanic like harvesting a tree. Would you rather a mini game popup where you have to match dots together to improve the quality of the wood you harvest? That sounds even more mondain and boring then clicking on the tree itself to harvest.
You have games like Wurm Online where you actually see the tree fall to the ground and disappear. Where it takes days/weeks for a tree to grow back. Trees have different growth levels and visuals, different types of trees, where age of the tree and your skill level effects the amount, quality, and type of item you get from it.
So there are games that expand upon it but as long as a mouse and keyboard are your only input devices there are going to be real limitations as to how you preform the action. There is not really much that can be done to improve upon it beyond what has been done. Themepark games will always remain simple and easy to achive type of games. Because they catar to them type of players.
Atleast Wurm does it differently. Have you played DF? honestly I don;t know one player in that game that hasent macroed.
Much like UO that's bad game design.
The sad thing is that repetitive mechanic only makes up like 1-2% of the games mechanics UO is so much more that these new sandbox games just seem to forget.
Oh well.
PLaying: EvE, Ryzom
Waiting For: Earthrise, Perpetuum
My compaint has nothing to do with handholding or not wanting to work for something in my mmo.
They can improve on a gathering mechanic. I'm sorry but chopping the same tree in the same location just by clicking every 3-10 seconds is not a good or fun mechanic.
Maybe have me explore for rare types of wood? make the harvesting mechanic more active? you can improve it over what games like DF are offering that seem to want to borrow from UO.
I don't understand how anyone could take my OP and think I want hand holding,want to rush to endgame or even put me in a category of a new mmo player when I've been playing these games even before UO lol!
Harvesting a tree is boring enough why must I click on the same tree in the same area all day, everyday for months?
Improve the mechanic make it more in depth and not some boring click fest.
It was shitty then and its even worse now!
Well as someone who has played MMO's since before UO then you would have known that you do not just stand in the same exact place harvesting all day in the game. One the tree itself will run out of resources after several chops (also depends upon your skill in lumberjacking) and it generally takes around 3-5 mins for a tree to regrow. Also different trees do provide different types of wood. So that within itself encourages you to find types of trees that you need to reach your goal.
There is only so mcuh that can be done to improve on a basic mechanic like harvesting a tree. Would you rather a mini game popup where you have to match dots together to improve the quality of the wood you harvest? That sounds even more mondain and boring then clicking on the tree itself to harvest.
You have games like Wurm Online where you actually see the tree fall to the ground and disappear. Where it takes days/weeks for a tree to grow back. Trees have different growth levels and visuals, different types of trees, where age of the tree and your skill level effects the amount, quality, and type of item you get from it.
So there are games that expand upon it but as long as a mouse and keyboard are your only input devices there are going to be real limitations as to how you preform the action. There is not really much that can be done to improve upon it beyond what has been done. Themepark games will always remain simple and easy to achive type of games. Because they catar to them type of players.
Atleast Wurm does it differently. Have you played DF? honestly I don;t know one player in that game that hasent macroed.
Much like UO that's bad game design.
The sad thing is that repetitive mechanic only makes up like 1-2% of the games mechanics UO is so much more that these new sandbox games just seem to forget.
Oh well.
No I haven't played Darkfall (for reasions of my own).. But with that said I will agree with you that the new crop of sandbox games are indeed sandbox 'lite' games. It's sad that a game made by in '95 / '96 released '97 has still managed to incorporate more and achieve more gameplay wise then alot of mmo games out on the market today. For a game that had to innovate all of its features it managed to do something alot of mmo games just do not do. Create a deep open gameplay experience that is what you make it.
I wish more games could pickup on that but them are the days of old and companys just do not want to create such games in this era.
The clicking macros can be solved easily.
Just make it so people have to move the mouse in random patterns and speeds, being somewhat precise.
Mix it up with keyboard controls and there we go.
Random and complex, macros cant be made for that. In a way that only a human being with non artificial inteligence would be able to do it.
Yeah, add verification codes too haha.
Hmmm I dont see where I said anything about being lead around and following a carrot on the stick in my OP.
Anyway... you honestly have fun standing in one area clicking the same tree over and over and over for months?
Of course not.
At least with killing mobs you get to visit other locations and fight creatures of different difficulty levels. A tree is a tree is a tree.
I'd rather cut higher level/grade trees to level my lumberjack than have my tree cutting advancement capped because my rat/orc/boar-killing skill is too low. I guess it's just a matter of which absurdity the user finds more palatable.
- RPG Quiz - can you get all 25 right?
- FPS Quiz - how well do you know your shooters?
That's what I'm try to say.
UO had so much going for it but it also has a handful of tedious mechanics. What seems to be happening is the new games are borrowing from UO but they are taking all the tedious mechanics and only a fraction of the good stuff.
Not only does this make the game tedious and boring but quite shallow as well due to limited gameplay style options.
PLaying: EvE, Ryzom
Waiting For: Earthrise, Perpetuum
Hmmm I dont see where I said anything about being lead around and following a carrot on the stick in my OP.
Anyway... you honestly have fun standing in one area clicking the same tree over and over and over for months?
Of course not.
At least with killing mobs you get to visit other locations and fight creatures of different difficulty levels. A tree is a tree is a tree.
I'd rather cut higher level/grade trees to level my lumberjack than have my tree cutting advancement capped because my rat/orc/boar-killing skill is too low. I guess it's just a matter of which absurdity the user finds more palatable.
I agree but this isn't a themepark discussion. I used the tree harvesting mechanic as an example of tedious mechanics that dont need to be copied.
PLaying: EvE, Ryzom
Waiting For: Earthrise, Perpetuum
That's what I'm try to say.
UO had so much going for it but it also has a handful of tedious mechanics. What seems to be happening is the new games are borrowing from UO but they are taking all the tedious mechanics and only a fraction of the good stuff.
Not only does this make the game tedious and boring but quite shallow as well due to limited gameplay style options.
I agree with you there. I think a lot of crafting side of things games are borrowing from UO are a big part of the issue. (Not to say that there hasn't been some innovation in this area) but like you have said. Dev's are just taking a small part of the puzzle and trying to make it work in there game. But I also think part of that problem is because games are so item focused today. They use items as the carrets to keep people playing. Where UO items where well just items. Some of them helped you but most of it was just minor / cosmetics more so then a focus point of the game. Thats why games like WoW have to always have that next high end raid dungeon in the works with the next best items.
You never dungeon crawled in Ultima Online to do it for the items.. Well atleast I have never done it for the items. It was always more about the challange and exploration. Any items you got along the journey was more just fluff and extra bonus to it.
Imo progression through gear was the shittiest idea ever in this genre But that discussion is best left for another thread lol.
PLaying: EvE, Ryzom
Waiting For: Earthrise, Perpetuum