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Item Shops - They Need to Die Out for the sake of MMO's
Southpaw.Gamer
Member CommonPosts: 572
Title says it all, I believe Item shops for MMO's be they a F2P or a P2P are simply a desperate money grab. It seems every F2P MMO out there these days is based squarely around the Item Shop, sure there are "free" parts of the game to play... but without paying a person will never experience the full blown game. Does anyone remember the days when F2P MMO's were a way for people wanting a foothold in the industry to get themselves known through the work they put into said F2P game?
The idea behind creative design to me is this. If I wanted to make money off a game I was making I would make it P2P with the standard monthly fee, why? Because with a monthly fee comes a steady, known income. Players of course will only pay to play so long as they feel the money is well spent... so then I would make sure said game is damn good before it releases so that people's money is well spent on the game. However if I was to be getting into the industry, I would be looking at creating a F2P MMO, which would be FREE not because I want a catch phrase for players to join then stick em with "buy this for a dollar or you won't advance"... but because this FREE game would be an expression of my desire, my talent in creating MMO's. Course this F2P MMO won't be AAA, but in the end I strongly believe that a persons desire and drive to create something should show, and any F2P game should still be a viable game to play. If the F2P MMO created is popular among people then of course comes the time to consider either trying to get recruited into an already established MMO company, or take the road of trying to form your own team and finding people to support your next project, which if course would either be a new IP or a remake of the F2P game but only more complicated and turned into a P2P game.
Long story short Item Shops don't belong because they don't encourage making a great MMO, they encourage making road-blocks for people that don't want to pay. For MMO's to survive in the future, more so the F2P games. I highly suggest developers do away with the Item Shops or anything the like for the greater good of development idealism. You want to make money from your game? Then earn it with a P2P game, and if you're not quite skilled or ready to create a P2P game then make a FREE F2P MMO to show off your talent and learn as you build the game that will hopefully become your ticket into the gaming industry.
Full Sail University - Game Design
Comments
Conditionally agree.
If the itemshops are selling gear and stuff that detracts from the gameplay and makes in-game progression pointless, then I want absolutely no part of them. I'll likely not try the game, and I certainly won't pony up the dough and buy it.
However, itemshops with fluff items like NPC pets, shiny mounts, decorative items, etc .. I've no interest in those and they don't imbalance the game or nullify gameplay, so they don't bother me.
Edit: Oh, and I'm ok with episodic or downloadable content. That's like a mini-expansion, so I've no problem with shelling out a few quid for that.
Playing: EVE, Final Fantasy 13, Uncharted 2, Need for Speed: Shift
The only Western F2P game I can think of that's even semi successful is DDO. They did a really good job from what I saw on the F2P model and it fits the game, but it failed as a P2P. There is also Dungeon Runners, but that was pure fail.
Other than that, F2P with item shops work in Asian countries. Most of the F2P games are just language ports and the developers don't want to put the extra effort into making them P2P games. Aion is an exception, it's F2P in the East and P2P in the west. WoW is the same. It's P2P in the West, F2P in the East.
F2P won't ever work in western games, imho. There will always been the desire for P2P.
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The time the developers spend in making even "fluff" items for a shop still takes resources away from where they should be, creating a good game. I know I myself as a person if I was in the shoes of a team making a game with a "fluff" item shop I'd be extremely focused on making cool fluff people would buy... which is a bad thing considering the game could and would suffer from that distraction of potential money making.
Full Sail University - Game Design
Until game budgets and revenue go back to the levels that they were at 7-10 years ago, I think MTs are here to stay. Remember that global financial meltdown? That money just isn't as easy to come by as it used to be.
There is NO miracle patch.
95% of what you see in beta won't change by launch.
Hope is not a stategy.
______________________________
"This kind of topic is like one of those little cartoon boxes held up by a stick on a string, with a piece of meat under it. In other words, bait."
As a general rule I dislike F2P games because they are all based around item shops it seems. Now I know this is a payment model and one that is very popular in the Eastern market and thats all well and good.
Its not an evil model of payment and you infact experiance it all the time. Goto eat out and you'll see it. Want a starter? Side with your meal? A beer too? All these are the "extras" that you dont actually need to enjoy the meal .. they are just optional extra's. (Bad example I'm sure people will rip appart but it serves my purpose of pointing out there are optional extra's everywhere)
Personally I dont Item shops because I like the "Full experiance" up front and item shops tend to be incremental.
DDO is an exception that I really DO like. It does have a Free part .. it has an item shop and it has a full subscription. I dont really care for the game but the payment model is great IMO because it prompts choice for the player. More choice is always a good thing. The current trend seems to be a sub + Item shop model which is hate with a passion. EQ2 does it, Champions Online does it and I see WoW heading in that direction too. (Yup its "only" vanity pets atm ... that will change though mark my words)
I would accept the DDO model in any game I wanted to play, i think its great and allows players to buget thier game-price individually. The Cash shop + Sub games I avoid totally. Simple item shop games .. some I've played but they dont hold my interest long because they tend to be a money sink for me (I lack willpower and have to have it all sadly
)
Over all I prefure to pay a straight sub .. which is why the DDO model still appeals to me because its an option there ... but i appreciate that some people like the consumer power of the item shops (to budget thier spending) so the DDO method strikes me as the best balance of the two. Double dippers can blow me. (Item shop + Sub)
Aion is pay per hour in east not free
@OP Then enlighten us with a method on how deelopers will earn money back on what they spended? plus the amount they spend on mantaining servers, adding new content/stuff and bug fixing
Donates don't work if you can play a game without paying but can donate to mantain it without getting anything only a few will donate.
Unbelievable. Cash shops in P2P MMOs aren't a case of need, but greed.
What kind of pathetic excuse would be used if that one hadn't been provided?
"" Voice acting isn't an RPG element....it's just a production value." - grumpymel2
How dare companies try and make money, especially in todays economy! Free to play should be just that! Not forced into buying things in an item mall!
In all seriousness, if your poor, get a job. If you've got a job and are still poor, I think you need to logoff and examine your lives. Even YOU have the right to make money. This whole liberal QQ fest of wanting something for nothing is downright pathetic.
Aion is pay per hour in east not free
Ouch!
I thought it was F2P like all the others. Kinda the same principle though, it's geared towards Cyber Cafe users.
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To the OP,i have two words...totally agree.No need to even discuss this because i have had thousands of hours in item mall games,and it is NEVER a good thing.
Never forget 3 mile Island and never trust a government official or company spokesman.
The time the developers spend in making even "fluff" items for a shop still takes resources away from where they should be, creating a good game. I know I myself as a person if I was in the shoes of a team making a game with a "fluff" item shop I'd be extremely focused on making cool fluff people would buy... which is a bad thing considering the game could and would suffer from that distraction of potential money making.
Two points I'd make:
The first is that you're making an assumption that adding an item shop would detract development time from the rest of the game. It's entirely possible that the people who are making the "fluff" items are recruited in addition to the existing development team rather than from it. Maybe not, but it's not something we can verify.
The second is that, even if development time is sacrificed for "fluff" items, that doesn't necessarily mean that resources are taken away from where the "should be". All it means is that resources are being taken aware from "where you would like them to be", which is a very different thing. I personally have no interest in the massive array of NPC pets in WoW, for example .. but other people like 'em, so I can't complain that the resources used to create them were wasted; even if (from my perspective) they were.
Playing: EVE, Final Fantasy 13, Uncharted 2, Need for Speed: Shift
I agree with you all the way original poster. Definitely doesn't need to be happening in P2P games, I have already refused to play any P2P game that includes an item shop. I want ALL of the game for my purchase of the game and sub fee. I don't care what the item is.
Ouch!
I thought it was F2P like all the others. Kinda the same principle though, it's geared towards Cyber Cafe users.
Interesting side-note: (and this isn't me mindlessly bashing Aion, btw)
This is why MMOs register such high subscriptions in Asia; since they consider that a single gametime purchase within a time period constitutes 1 subscription.
Playing: EVE, Final Fantasy 13, Uncharted 2, Need for Speed: Shift
Aion is pay per hour in east not free
Ouch!
I thought it was F2P like all the others. Kinda the same principle though, it's geared towards Cyber Cafe users.
It sounds worse than it is. Last time I looked a 300hour time card for Aion was about = $15.
Yes I remember the days when people used Free to play as a way to gain a foothold in the industry, which led to games such as Tibia and Runescape.
I'd take pretty much any item shop game over those, thank you very much.
Item shop games have increased the quality of free to play mmorpgs significantly,
Item shops are not a quick way to get rich. A game still needs to interest players before they will pay for it. If people aren't interested in the game, they won't play it and certainly won't pay for it.
I also don't know of any item shop game that actually requires a purchase from item store to progress and I'm pretty sure the vast majority of them offer optional game enhancements.
Also TheHatter, you're very wrong about DDO being the only semi successful game. There are tons of free mmorpgs that are very, very popular, many which completely dwarf DDO and P2p games in terms of success
Unfortunately if you refuse to play because of this feature, you may find yourself without any games at all.
It's only business. It's business like subscription. People just can't change. My grandpa still lives in a world where he thinks it is just the way it is to "know that black people are inferior". There's no changing his mind, he's stuck in his ways.
Things change, business change, how we make and create and have fun change.
YOU have spoken. YOU have shown you love RMT and the way F2P works. You love it, that's why it exists now, and is steadily climbing.
RMT is so huge in itself that you can't just look at it and call it one thing. There's a million different ways it can run. Some good some bad.
I think games like RoM have taken a very congenial approach of offering no items that imbalance the game.
Anyone who says you have to pay to play F2P is wrong, Even if level cap is 60, and the game says once you reach 59 you can never ever do anything until you pay us $50 bucks to get to 60, you still do not have to pay.
The choice is yours, is ours. If you don't like RMT, then vote, you vote you like it everytime you pay a single penny in a F2P game.
No one forces you to pay. You always have the choice, even if that choice is moving to another game, or never playing another F2P ever again.
Unfortunately the numbers say the vast majority of you, us, love RMT, by how much we are currently paying, and all the numbers are rising.
Just One MMOre
I don't want something for nothing, I want game developers to take a look at themselves and change the mindset there current is with the F2P market, which honestly I don't play any of them. The whole concept of a F2P MMO was and should have never changed from a method for upstart devs to get their feet on the ground, it should never be a way to make any profit.
Full Sail University - Game Design
I don't want something for nothing, I want game developers to take a look at themselves and change the mindset there current is with the F2P market, which honestly I don't play any of them. The whole concept of a F2P MMO was and should have never changed from a method for upstart devs to get their feet on the ground, it should never be a way to make any profit.
How many so called devs trying to get their feet on the ground with f2p have actually created a game that is still around, or is even somewhat entertaining to play?
Ofcourse it should be a way to make profit. Why should they have to deliver entertainment without getting paid for it?
I don't want something for nothing, I want game developers to take a look at themselves and change the mindset there current is with the F2P market, which honestly I don't play any of them. The whole concept of a F2P MMO was and should have never changed from a method for upstart devs to get their feet on the ground, it should never be a way to make any profit.
Why not? Why should there be limitations on ways a company could make money? It's THEIR product. It's what they're selling, however they wish. You're just the consumer, you can choose to pay or not.
I don't want something for nothing, I want game developers to take a look at themselves and change the mindset there current is with the F2P market, which honestly I don't play any of them. The whole concept of a F2P MMO was and should have never changed from a method for upstart devs to get their feet on the ground, it should never be a way to make any profit.
How many so called devs trying to get their feet on the ground with f2p have actually created a game that is still around, or is even somewhat entertaining to play?
Ofcourse it should be a way to make profit. Why should they have to deliver entertainment without getting paid for it?
Our views are vastly different, I look at the creation of a F2P MMO as a learning experience for the developers, their goal shouldn't be to make money but to make a game everyone enjoys. With this mindset when they do finally make a P2P game hopefully this mindset won't change. Making a game purely because you WANT to and ENJOY doing so is their reward, and it's a bonus of people actually play and enjoy it.
A perfect example is Runescape, it was completely free until the game became viable enough to merit a P2P version. I personally stopped liking the game after grade 10 or so... that was years ago. Either way the developers made a solid game, why? Because they enjoyed it and looked at it not from a business angle but from a hobby angle.
Full Sail University - Game Design
Item shops in a F2P game, fine, whatever, they have to make money somehow.
Itemshops in a P2P game? Sorry but that's just greedy double dipping no matter how you try to justify it. Pick one of the other, not both.
Greed it may be and pathetic it may be. I won't disagree with you on that. Thing is, it seems to me that a business can have no sense of greed. When is enough enough? It can never be enough. Growth is expected and that means finding new ways to get cash. To us it's greed because it is a temptation to extend ourselves beyond our means. To them greed is offering enough choices to the market without scaring it away. We can only vote in the currency they understand which is, of course, cash. I haven't experienced any degrade of game play in P2P MMOs that have goods for sale. As long as it remains optional I can keep the temptation at bay but being tempted and being compelled are two different things to me. If I feel compelled to buy, I leave.
There is NO miracle patch.
95% of what you see in beta won't change by launch.
Hope is not a stategy.
______________________________
"This kind of topic is like one of those little cartoon boxes held up by a stick on a string, with a piece of meat under it. In other words, bait."
Until such a time when players, those that actually play the games, decide that RMTs are not welcomed into their game of choice and can affect the companies that own them take notice at how much they'll lose if they continue...there's no point in complaining. It is the way things are because of the money they make. Simple as that.
If a company started losing players over their item shop, and the income they make from that shop cannot make up for the loss..do you really think they'd keep it in hopes of making more income from it? I seriously doubt it.
I understand many of you hate RMTs, but unless it becomes the majority of gamer's pov and willing to quit a game over it, they'll continue if it makes them money. All the arguments in the world won't change their minds if they see increase profits each quarter.
Facts of Life I'm afraid.
Na, they'd still try them and try them whether we quit or not. Using PC gamers to figure out how to make money from console MMO's. Not really what people were expecting for their subscription fee.
See you in the dream..
The Fires from heaven, now as cold as ice. A rapid ascension tolls a heavy price.
Maybe, but i doubt they'd keep it up at a loss. Shareholders notwithstanding and such. Haven't seen any remove them for lack of revenue-making so far.
Might be that enough is made from these transactions to counter those dissatisfied and gone.