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Item Shops - They Need to Die Out for the sake of MMO's

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  • IhmoteppIhmotepp Member Posts: 14,495
    Originally posted by luckturtz

    Originally posted by Ihmotepp

    Originally posted by luckturtz

    Originally posted by Ihmotepp


    Everyone has different things that they say "breaks immersion". For some people it's zoning. Zoning doesn't break my immersion one bit.
    For me, it's spending real money in a game. If I'm playing a game, the very last thing I want to do is worry about a budget, how much real life money I'm spending, if an item is worth the amount of real life money I'm spending on it, how much money i spent this month, converting game currency to real life money, lets see I paid 5 dollars for 375 klurgs, and this potion is 97 klurgs, that means if I buy it I'm paying in real life dollars... Ok, I quit, that sucks.
    I really, really, dont' want to keep up with spending 50 cents here, and a 1.75 there.
    14.95 for the month, forget about money and play the game? That's a deal.

     

    Just have question to ask if an MMO had sub plan where 14.99 a month would get mostly every thing you need from a item shop would you play it ? Cash shop would have fluff stuff like pets,mounts and costumes but the important items like xp potions or crafting items have a monthly limit that everybody was on the same level.Would you play it?

     

    I wouldn't consider a mount "fluff". Travel is very important in an MMORPG. it determines the time spent to get to a quest or to a place to grind mobs, and everything in an MMORPG is based on time.

    I want to earn my xp, so no potions that boost xp. If we're paying 14.99 then why would we buy xp potions?

    I'd assume everyone would buy as many xp potions as the 14.99 would allow them, so why make them pay 14.99 then spend the in game money on xp potions?

    Seems silly, wouldn't you just set it to a proper xp rate, since everyone is paying 14.99?

    I also want to earn my gear, so no out of game cash to buy gear.

    Again, if everyone is paying 14.99 why have me buy in game cash with real money, then use the in game cash to buy my gear? Wouldn't you just set the loot drop appropriately so as I play the game I get gear drops, or enough in game money to buy gear?

    If you mean 14.99 sub, and cash shop for fluff like pets that do ZERO damage, and give ZERO buffs, in other words you can look at them and that's all they do, and costumes, then sure.

    Costumes and pets that do nothing as far as game mechanics would not affect the game play.

    But mounts in the cash shop? Definitley not, that affects game play.

     

     

    I don't want to keep on making fantasy scenarios for a imaginary game does not exists,I mount would be fluff item if can get one easy ingame.The game would already have proper xp rate,monthly limit on xp potions is so that you could have a fair system where everbody is playing because they would a lesser xp potions for free to players.

    Theory is to create hybrid format where players could pay 14.99 a month and get quality and stable game while having a free to play model as well.It would be kinda like having cable.The superior package gives you showtime,hbo,etc,the basic package gives you just couple of channels.If you want to watch hbo on demand it comes with superior package for free,If you have basic cable you can pay to watch something on Hbo on demand.

    You can create a model like that in mmo but yes it means putting in some artifical controls to make it happen.The funny thing is people never question server changes,race changes,class changes when it is just easy to put something game to let this happen.All i am saying you find a way to have a mix model where those who want to pay month can,those who want to play free can you will have something pretty good.The best method would probably be having a item shop with a limit.

     

    As for Gamer ADD thing,I am suppose to play one game at a time and one game only?Can't one Monday you feel like playing WoW,Tuesday AoC, Wednesday War,Thursday Madden,Friday CoD:MW,Saturday Mario Bros,Sunday Street fighter.I have varied tasted in games,I have varied taste in mmos if that is ADD fine.whatever

     

     

     

    No, if the mount can be purchased with real life money, it is not fluff.

    the fact that you can earn something in game, doesn't turn the same item you can buy into fluff.

    I can earn the +10 sword of doom in game. OR I can buy it with real life money. That doesn't turn the sword into fluff.

    Would I pay 14.99 a month, AND have my immersion wrecked by being able to buy in game items with real money?

    Absolutley not.

    I want to play an MMORPG, not ebay.

    I do like to play ebay sometimes, but not in a fantasy setting.

    If I'm playing ebay, I'm going to buy an ipod or something like that.

    Again, what's the point in xp potions if there is a limit, and I'm already paying 14.99?

    Pay 14.99, like everyone else, get 100 xp potions, like everyone else, and drink them all.

    Why not just pay 14.99 and skip the potion buying and drinking? It's not doing anything, since we all get the same potions. You're just putting in a mechanic where I have to buy in game money, and spend it on potions for no reason.

    If some people are getting more or less xp potions than others, then no I won't play.

    image

  • uquipuuquipu Member Posts: 1,516

    I've used the item shop in EQ2 and DDO

    It's bad for an MMO's image to have an item shop, imo.  An item shop says we're trying to milk as much out of our community as we can.

     

    Well shave my back and call me an elf! -- Oghren

  • luckturtzluckturtz Member Posts: 422
    Originally posted by Ihmotepp



    No, if the mount can be purchased with real life money, it is not fluff.
    the fact that you can earn something in game, doesn't turn the same item you can buy into fluff.
    I can earn the +10 sword of doom in game. OR I can buy it with real life money. That doesn't turn the sword into fluff.
    Would I pay 14.99 a month, AND have my immersion wrecked by being able to buy in game items with real money?
    Absolutley not.
    I want to play an MMORPG, not ebay.
    I do like to play ebay sometimes, but not in a fantasy setting.
    If I'm playing ebay, I'm going to buy an ipod or something like that.
    Again, what's the point in xp potions if there is a limit, and I'm already paying 14.99?
    Pay 14.99, like everyone else, get 100 xp potions, like everyone else, and drink them all.
    Why not just pay 14.99 and skip the potion buying and drinking? It's not doing anything, since we all get the same potions. You're just putting in a mechanic where I have to buy in game money, and spend it on potions for no reason.
    If some people are getting more or less xp potions than others, then no I won't play.

     

    Maybe i am doing bad job explaining it.I will go different route explaining

    Premier package-7.99 a month which gets you

    - Global chat

    -Normal exp rate

    -Ability to join guilds and use auctions houses,teleport points,mail and normal ingame mounts

    Basic package- Free to play

    - No Global chat

    - 45% percent slower exp rate

    -You can't join guilds, teleport points,mail or ingame mounts

    -Limited access to pvp areas

    There is a item shop but it has 1 day exp potions and 7 day mounts.The exp potions only raise you to normal exp rate.It is same concept as just having a TV you will be able to pick up couple of local stations or then having cable option of having more channels and options.

    My point is there is middle ground

    You can lower price point because should have more players,You should have a higher retention rate because some players will stay on little while longer because of free to play option,You should have fairly large population because you should get the free to play and pay to players.

     

     

  • LynxJSALynxJSA Member RarePosts: 3,334
    Originally posted by Bainwalker


    Does anyone remember the days when F2P MMO's were a way for people wanting a foothold in the industry to get themselves known through the work they put into said F2P game?

     

    Can you give an example of where and when that has happened? The first that comes to mind is Jon Selin of Dream Lords, but I can't think of many others.

    -- Whammy - a 64x64 miniRPG 
    RPG Quiz - can you get all 25 right? 
    FPS Quiz - how well do you know your shooters?  
  • LynxJSALynxJSA Member RarePosts: 3,334
    Originally posted by NinjaNerf

    Originally posted by Ilvaldyr

    Originally posted by Ihmotepp

    I wouldn't consider a mount "fluff". Travel is very important in an MMORPG. it determines the time spent to get to a quest or to a place to grind mobs, and everything in an MMORPG is based on time.
    Costumes and pets that do nothing as far as game mechanics would not affect the game play.
    But mounts in the cash shop? Definitley not, that affects game play. 

    To be fair, I've never seen a game where the only mount available was via RMT. If that were the case, it would certainly be a balance issue and to be avoided.

    It's far more likely that there would be in-game horses but that you could get a cooler looking (but functionally identical) mount like an undead horse or something from the item-shop.



     

    Mounts come from cash shop in Atlantica Online. Not only do you have to pay real money it is not necessary you will get one. They come in a boxes with a lot of other items. Whenever you buy such a box you get a random item out of the box. If you are lucky you get a mount. Otherwise you may get crap. Each box costs $10 real money and the odds, although never revealed was rumored to be over 1:30. Talking about paying $300 to get a mount.... Go figure how well they are doing...

     

    A good bit of misinformation in this thread, and this is a classic example. Mounts can also be obtained by exchanging Battle Points that you gain from doing Free League, Weekly Championship, and Challenge events.

    -- Whammy - a 64x64 miniRPG 
    RPG Quiz - can you get all 25 right? 
    FPS Quiz - how well do you know your shooters?  
  • InterestingInteresting Member UncommonPosts: 973

    What matters is if its something that I want and it takes time to get, others shouldnt skip the pain for money. NO NO NO NO.

  • IlvaldyrIlvaldyr Member CommonPosts: 2,142
    Originally posted by Interesting


    What matters is if its something that I want and it takes time to get, others shouldnt skip the pain for money. NO NO NO NO.

    Would you please post a list of the games that you're playing that offer only the choice between being masochistic or being fleeced by developers. The public should be warned.

    image
    Playing: EVE, Final Fantasy 13, Uncharted 2, Need for Speed: Shift
  • InterestingInteresting Member UncommonPosts: 973

    A list of F2P games that doesnt rely on a maso experience? Hah Hah

  • Einherjar_LCEinherjar_LC Member UncommonPosts: 1,055
    Originally posted by rashhero


    How dare companies try and make money, especially in todays economy! Free to play should be just that! Not forced into buying things in an item mall!
    In all seriousness, if your poor, get a job. If you've got a job and are still poor, I think you need to logoff and examine your lives. Even YOU have the right to make money. This whole liberal QQ fest of wanting something for nothing is downright pathetic.

     

    Not sure if you're aware of this but the non-candy coated unemployment figures for the USA are around 22-25%.  It's not as simple as go get a job, and even if it were, the jobs that one might be able to get are paying below standard wages which would make one still "poor" as you put it.  I am so tired of QQ conservatives that claim to be compassionate being neither conservative, nor compassionate.

     

     

    OT:

     

    I agree with the OP.  I think item shops and RMT's are inherently greedy moves and bad for sub based MMO's in the west.  Game companies make plenty of money off of box sales and subs, the rest is just unnecessary taking advantage of the players to extract mmore money.

     

    People in the west seem to like the monthly system.  The pay as you play type systems that work so well in the east come across as being nickle and dimed by folks in the west.  I think most MMO players in the west want everything above board so everyone is on the same playing fielfd and everyone has equal competition within the construct of the game.

     

    As has already been brought up, I just don't know how else the OP expects F2P games to sustain themselves.  For most of them, it's a subscription model more than a greed thing IMO.

    Einherjar_LC says: WTB the true successor to UO or Asheron's Call pst!

  • IlvaldyrIlvaldyr Member CommonPosts: 2,142
    Originally posted by Interesting


    A list of F2P games that doesnt rely on a maso experience? Hah Hah

    Ah, that would explain it.

    Pay2Play all the way.

    image
    Playing: EVE, Final Fantasy 13, Uncharted 2, Need for Speed: Shift
  • NinjaNerfNinjaNerf Member Posts: 163
    Originally posted by LynxJSA

    Originally posted by NinjaNerf

    Originally posted by Ilvaldyr

    Originally posted by Ihmotepp

    I wouldn't consider a mount "fluff". Travel is very important in an MMORPG. it determines the time spent to get to a quest or to a place to grind mobs, and everything in an MMORPG is based on time.
    Costumes and pets that do nothing as far as game mechanics would not affect the game play.
    But mounts in the cash shop? Definitley not, that affects game play. 

    To be fair, I've never seen a game where the only mount available was via RMT. If that were the case, it would certainly be a balance issue and to be avoided.

    It's far more likely that there would be in-game horses but that you could get a cooler looking (but functionally identical) mount like an undead horse or something from the item-shop.



     

    Mounts come from cash shop in Atlantica Online. Not only do you have to pay real money it is not necessary you will get one. They come in a boxes with a lot of other items. Whenever you buy such a box you get a random item out of the box. If you are lucky you get a mount. Otherwise you may get crap. Each box costs $10 real money and the odds, although never revealed was rumored to be over 1:30. Talking about paying $300 to get a mount.... Go figure how well they are doing...

     

    A good bit of misinformation in this thread, and this is a classic example. Mounts can also be obtained by exchanging Battle Points that you gain from doing Free League, Weekly Championship, and Challenge events.



     

    No. You don't. You can exchange for a few items with battle points but sorry, mounts not included. And the amount of battle points needed to get the same items INCREASED almost every time when a new patch came out. Also, number of battles get drastically NERFED with new patches too.

  • ScotScot Member LegendaryPosts: 24,273

    The buy your way to end game mentality is a very odd one, we dont see it yet in solo games, but I wonder for how much longer? With solo games going online and just listing achievments, I wonder how long before power boosts and xp gains are for sale in Windows Live and Steam?

    All sense of true achivement is lost, MMO's becoming more like a fashion house where you show of the armour you brought.

  • NinjaNerfNinjaNerf Member Posts: 163
    Originally posted by Scot


    The buy your way to end game mentality is a very odd one, we dont see it yet in solo games, but I wonder for how much longer? With solo games going online and just listing achievments, I wonder how long before power boosts and xp gains are for sale in Windows Live and Steam?
    All sense of true achivement is lost, MMO's becoming more like a fashion house where you show of the armour you brought.



     

    I don't think you will see cash shops in single player games whether they go online or not. People who care about seeing their 'achievements' can buy cheating tools. They can hack the client files and post get their characters to max level cap in seconds.

  • ScotScot Member LegendaryPosts: 24,273

    I never thought I would say this....but there is something to be said for cheating then. :)

  • GTwanderGTwander Member UncommonPosts: 6,035
    Originally posted by NinjaNerf

    Originally posted by Scot


    The buy your way to end game mentality is a very odd one, we dont see it yet in solo games, but I wonder for how much longer? With solo games going online and just listing achievments, I wonder how long before power boosts and xp gains are for sale in Windows Live and Steam?
    All sense of true achivement is lost, MMO's becoming more like a fashion house where you show of the armour you brought.



     

    I don't think you will see cash shops in single player games whether they go online or not.

     

    I believe the Sims 3 tried this. They had a marketplace at the login screen where you can use bought points to buy deco/item packages for the game. I really had a feeling it was going to go nowhere, and I assume I was right as there's no real news to it's success. They were really better off selling larger expansion-type packs of all these things instead of tons of smaller items.

    Also the whole Dragon Age DL content thing from the campsite.... My copy allowed for that content for free, but the methods insulted me enough to where I never bothered registering. Single-Player games can't do what MMOs typically do for paid content drops because everything is expected to come with the box copy, and the rest drop in legible segments. FO3 xpacks being exactly the kind of DL content that works for offline games, but had they shopped out the armor packs and maps individually - I think it would have gotten nowhere. As was probably proven with Oblivion.

    Writer / Musician / Game Designer

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  • IhmoteppIhmotepp Member Posts: 14,495
    Originally posted by luckturtz

    Originally posted by Ihmotepp



    No, if the mount can be purchased with real life money, it is not fluff.
    the fact that you can earn something in game, doesn't turn the same item you can buy into fluff.
    I can earn the +10 sword of doom in game. OR I can buy it with real life money. That doesn't turn the sword into fluff.
    Would I pay 14.99 a month, AND have my immersion wrecked by being able to buy in game items with real money?
    Absolutley not.
    I want to play an MMORPG, not ebay.
    I do like to play ebay sometimes, but not in a fantasy setting.
    If I'm playing ebay, I'm going to buy an ipod or something like that.
    Again, what's the point in xp potions if there is a limit, and I'm already paying 14.99?
    Pay 14.99, like everyone else, get 100 xp potions, like everyone else, and drink them all.
    Why not just pay 14.99 and skip the potion buying and drinking? It's not doing anything, since we all get the same potions. You're just putting in a mechanic where I have to buy in game money, and spend it on potions for no reason.
    If some people are getting more or less xp potions than others, then no I won't play.

     

    Maybe i am doing bad job explaining it.I will go different route explaining

    Premier package-7.99 a month which gets you

    - Global chat

    -Normal exp rate

    -Ability to join guilds and use auctions houses,teleport points,mail and normal ingame mounts

    Basic package- Free to play

    - No Global chat

    - 45% percent slower exp rate

    -You can't join guilds, teleport points,mail or ingame mounts

    -Limited access to pvp areas

    There is a item shop but it has 1 day exp potions and 7 day mounts.The exp potions only raise you to normal exp rate.It is same concept as just having a TV you will be able to pick up couple of local stations or then having cable option of having more channels and options.

    My point is there is middle ground

    You can lower price point because should have more players,You should have a higher retention rate because some players will stay on little while longer because of free to play option,You should have fairly large population because you should get the free to play and pay to players.

     

     

     

    No, I would definitely not play this game, wouldnt' even load a free trial on my computer.

    If people gain xp at different rates, I'm not interested.

    image

  • MMO_DoubterMMO_Doubter Member Posts: 5,056

    I don't think players should be devising new and better ways for the companies to screw us.

    "" Voice acting isn't an RPG element....it's just a production value." - grumpymel2

  • KnightcryKnightcry Member Posts: 168

     Why is it that gamers accept pay to win in f2p but hate people that buy gold in p2p for the same advantage?

  • MMO_DoubterMMO_Doubter Member Posts: 5,056
    Originally posted by Knightcry


     Why is it that gamers accept pay to win in f2p but hate people that buy gold in p2p for the same advantage?

    Because with a F2P, people expect buying to win. In a P2P game, people expect equality.

    "" Voice acting isn't an RPG element....it's just a production value." - grumpymel2

  • GameloadingGameloading Member UncommonPosts: 14,182

    I really wonder why people keep talking about winning. While many do have a pvp aspect, very few of them actually have winning a primary focus of the game. How many of you actually play to win?

  • TorikTorik Member UncommonPosts: 2,342
    Originally posted by Ihmotepp

    Originally posted by luckturtz 
    Maybe i am doing bad job explaining it.I will go different route explaining


    Premier package-7.99 a month which gets you


    - Global chat


    -Normal exp rate


    -Ability to join guilds and use auctions houses,teleport points,mail and normal ingame mounts


    Basic package- Free to play


    - No Global chat


    - 45% percent slower exp rate


    -You can't join guilds, teleport points,mail or ingame mounts


    -Limited access to pvp areas


    There is a item shop but it has 1 day exp potions and 7 day mounts.The exp potions only raise you to normal exp rate.It is same concept as just having a TV you will be able to pick up couple of local stations or then having cable option of having more channels and options.
    My point is there is middle ground
    You can lower price point because should have more players,You should have a higher retention rate because some players will stay on little while longer because of free to play option,You should have fairly large population because you should get the free to play and pay to players.
     
     

     

    No, I would definitely not play this game, wouldnt' even load a free trial on my computer.

    If people gain xp at different rates, I'm not interested.

     

    Actually his F2P 'basic package' is essentially a free trial with no time limit.  The limitations he put down on free play players are so severe that most MMORPG players would only play it as a trial and either upgrade to the premier package or quit the game.  The XP stuff is one thing but he is also taking away the stuff that most players expect from a 'proper' MMORPG like guilds ,global chat, auction houses or mail.

  • InterestingInteresting Member UncommonPosts: 973

    How can any MMORPG player be satisfied by a F2P game with Item Shop?

    And how an Achiever feels regarding "paying to achieve", instead of "playing to achieve" ?

  • nariusseldonnariusseldon Member EpicPosts: 27,775
    Originally posted by Interesting


    How can any MMORPG player be satisfied by a F2P game with Item Shop?
    And how an Achiever feels regarding "paying to achieve", instead of "playing to achieve" ?

     

    Because it is fun to kill things without paying a dime?

    Your lack of understanding why millions of people play these games is not the same as they don't have good reasons.

  • InterestingInteresting Member UncommonPosts: 973
    Originally posted by nariusseldon

    Originally posted by Interesting


    How can any MMORPG player be satisfied by a F2P game with Item Shop?
    And how an Achiever feels regarding "paying to achieve", instead of "playing to achieve" ?

     

    Because it is fun to kill things without paying a dime?

    Your lack of understanding why millions of people play these games is not the same as they don't have good reasons.

     

    They dont pay a dime, because the games sucks.

    Devs knowing this, make their games free or they dont even start.

     

    Millions of people dont choose to play these sucky F2P "Pay to Win" games. They dont have better choices.

    Why? Because these games dont satisfy Exploreres, Socializers and Killers.

    Only the combat focuses achievers and even them are bound to not be satisfied unless they spend hundreds of bucks buying whatever power their F2P "pay to win" cash shop games offer.

    Thats the future.

  • nariusseldonnariusseldon Member EpicPosts: 27,775
    Originally posted by Interesting

    Originally posted by nariusseldon

    Originally posted by Interesting


    How can any MMORPG player be satisfied by a F2P game with Item Shop?
    And how an Achiever feels regarding "paying to achieve", instead of "playing to achieve" ?

     

    Because it is fun to kill things without paying a dime?

    Your lack of understanding why millions of people play these games is not the same as they don't have good reasons.

     

    They dont pay a dime, because the games sucks.

    Devs knowing this, make their games free or they dont even start.

     

    Millions of people dont choose to play these sucky F2P "Pay to Win" games. They dont have better choices.

    Why? Because these games dont satisfy Exploreres, Socializers and Killers.

    Only the combat focuses achievers and even them are bound to not be satisfied unless they spend hundreds of bucks buying whatever power their F2P "pay to win" cash shop games offer.

    Thats the future.

     

    Now that is the stupidest statement i have seen. First, players have the choice of NOT TO PLAY. Second, unless you live under a rock, you can always choose some pay-to-play MMO like WOW.

    It is obvious that many CHOOSE to play thsee F2P games, like it or not.

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