Most gankers are the new generation of gamers, from WoW and such, who have no idea what a fun and meaningful conquest based world can be. Most carebears are some level of RPers who stress immersion, based on personal preference, and want basically a single player game that they can enjoy, when they're in the "mood", with a few select friends. Both have problems.
Most gankers are the new generation of gamers, from WoW and such, who have no idea what a fun and meaningful conquest based world can be. Most carebears are some level of RPers who stress immersion, based on personal preference, and want basically a single player game that they can enjoy, when they're in the "mood", with a few select friends. Both have problems.
There is nothing new from WoW about gankers. Ganking was hardcore during vanilla, though as time went on, there is so much to do that the ganking level became very low.
Gankers have been around since pre-trammel UO. Hanging out on the roads leading out of towns, looking to overpower anyone not in groups then berate them. I can't tell ya why it happens, but it's been happening since the inception of the "unfair advantage". A lot of the worst of them came from SB though, where that was the way of life.
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Based on what's been said above, it would seem that the E-thugs are the problem here. I have always thought that pvp was competitive play. Otherwise what's the point of having, e.g. 12 guys gang-bang someone who's like 10 levels lower than you ? Where's the fun in that ? You know you're going to win with those odds. So if you know you're going to win then why bother ? Unless of course it's just to KS or steal their camp which automatically makes you just a bully/E-thug.
I can fully understand why people would like competitive pvp since at least you get to feel good that you successfully beat someone based on your skill and knowledge of your toon's abilities. I've gone through this myself quite a few times, lost some won some. But for someone to be calling me a carebear simply because I don't believe in gang-banging or ganking some poor sod on a pvp server, well that's kinda lame. For those who believe that this is what pvp should be then, lol, you go right ahead and stay on your pvp servers and I'll stay on my pve servers. I think life will be just more simpler that way.
Some people just get their rocks off by ganking other players, simply because they know they're causing someone else frustration. It's these players that stick in a lot of people's minds when they say "sorry but I'd prefer not to play in FFA PvP". It's hard for many players to differentiate between these "e-thugs" as you put it, and the PvPers who actually have respect for other players and actually look for a fair fight. Especially so since it seems that there are less honorable PvPers and more gankers prevalent in MMOs these days.
It's the ganker mentality that bred the venom into the "carebear" term. I remember this term exploded on the Ultima Online forums when UO had it's servers split into FFA PvP and non-PvP sides. The gankers spewed the term out with much hate at the developers, and "carebears" for ruining the game. In reality, it was the gankers that ruined their own game by creating such a hostile gameplay environment. Most players just wanted to go about their business without being jumped by a gank squad that was out for shits and giggles to slaughter players that had literally no chance to survive. The developers were simply trying to preserve the fun in the game for the true majority of the players, which were the ones that preferred occasional, optional, and fairer PvP.
I agree with this. I dont mind getting killed X number of times because me and some guy are fighting over some node of ore or other meaningful objective, but dying over and over again to a player who can only enjoy the game by inflicting frustration in others is not ok. There is a word for that kind of behaviour in real life.
Most gankers are the new generation of gamers, from WoW and such, who have no idea what a fun and meaningful conquest based world can be. Most carebears are some level of RPers who stress immersion, based on personal preference, and want basically a single player game that they can enjoy, when they're in the "mood", with a few select friends. Both have problems.
Actually I would think that the gankers are the 'old school' players from UO days while most of the carebears are johny-come-lately WoW players. At least that's what the 'general opinion' of the MMORPG community would lead me to believe.
Most gankers are the new generation of gamers, from WoW and such, who have no idea what a fun and meaningful conquest based world can be. Most carebears are some level of RPers who stress immersion, based on personal preference, and want basically a single player game that they can enjoy, when they're in the "mood", with a few select friends. Both have problems.
Actually I would think that the gankers are the 'old school' players from UO days while most of the carebears are johny-come-lately WoW players. At least that's what the 'general opinion' of the MMORPG community would lead me to believe.
There is nothing new in WoW about carebears either :-)
It makes me wonder how long will the WoW community be labelled as 'new'?
Based on what's been said above, it would seem that the E-thugs are the problem here. I have always thought that pvp was competitive play. Otherwise what's the point of having, e.g. 12 guys gang-bang someone who's like 10 levels lower than you ? Where's the fun in that ? You know you're going to win with those odds. So if you know you're going to win then why bother ? Unless of course it's just to KS or steal their camp which automatically makes you just a bully/E-thug.
I can fully understand why people would like competitive pvp since at least you get to feel good that you successfully beat someone based on your skill and knowledge of your toon's abilities. I've gone through this myself quite a few times, lost some won some. But for someone to be calling me a carebear simply because I don't believe in gang-banging or ganking some poor sod on a pvp server, well that's kinda lame. For those who believe that this is what pvp should be then, lol, you go right ahead and stay on your pvp servers and I'll stay on my pve servers. I think life will be just more simpler that way.
Some people just get their rocks off by ganking other players, simply because they know they're causing someone else frustration. It's these players that stick in a lot of people's minds when they say "sorry but I'd prefer not to play in FFA PvP". It's hard for many players to differentiate between these "e-thugs" as you put it, and the PvPers who actually have respect for other players and actually look for a fair fight. Especially so since it seems that there are less honorable PvPers and more gankers prevalent in MMOs these days.
It's the ganker mentality that bred the venom into the "carebear" term. I remember this term exploded on the Ultima Online forums when UO had it's servers split into FFA PvP and non-PvP sides. The gankers spewed the term out with much hate at the developers, and "carebears" for ruining the game. In reality, it was the gankers that ruined their own game by creating such a hostile gameplay environment. Most players just wanted to go about their business without being jumped by a gank squad that was out for shits and giggles to slaughter players that had literally no chance to survive. The developers were simply trying to preserve the fun in the game for the true majority of the players, which were the ones that preferred occasional, optional, and fairer PvP.
I agree with this. I dont mind getting killed X number of times because me and some guy are fighting over some node of ore or other meaningful objective, but dying over and over again to a player who can only enjoy the game by inflicting frustration in others is not ok. There is a word for that kind of behaviour in real life.
Don't bring real life into this=) Gankers and Pkers don't think playing a game has anything to do with real life, real people or real anything. You should just take your beating like a good little sheep, NOT complain and get beat on again and again. God forbid you go play other games forcing the PKers to have to play against themselves, hehe. Then you're just an A-hole who ruined the genre for choosing to play a game you enjoy=) It has NOTHING to do with them being the a-holes right from the start. You're SUPPOSED TO enjoy getting ganked, didn't you know? Its YOUR fault for not enjoying it. YOU ruined everything for THEM!
I'm so glad most developers understand that so called carebears or NORMAL people, run the genre now. PKers can go stick to free shards or cruddy MMOs no one cares about, hehe. Good riddance.
Don't bring real life into this=) Gankers and Pkers don't think playing a game has anything to do with real life, real people or real anything. You should just take your beating like a good little sheep, NOT complain and get beat on again and again. God forbid you go play other games forcing the PKers to have to play against themselves, hehe. Then you're just an A-hole who ruined the genre for choosing to play a game you enjoy=) It has NOTHING to do with them being the a-holes right from the start. You're SUPPOSED TO enjoy getting ganked, didn't you know? Its YOUR fault for not enjoying it. YOU ruined everything for THEM! I'm so glad most developers understand that so called carebears or NORMAL people, run the genre now. PKers can go stick to free shards or cruddy MMOs no one cares about, hehe. Good riddance.
Don't bring real life into this=) Gankers and Pkers don't think playing a game has anything to do with real life, real people or real anything. You should just take your beating like a good little sheep, NOT complain and get beat on again and again. God forbid you go play other games forcing the PKers to have to play against themselves, hehe. Then you're just an A-hole who ruined the genre for choosing to play a game you enjoy=) It has NOTHING to do with them being the a-holes right from the start. You're SUPPOSED TO enjoy getting ganked, didn't you know? Its YOUR fault for not enjoying it. YOU ruined everything for THEM! I'm so glad most developers understand that so called carebears or NORMAL people, run the genre now. PKers can go stick to free shards or cruddy MMOs no one cares about, hehe. Good riddance.
Jesus christ!!!
What gankers ass raped you bro?
Someone got you good dude and forced you to uninstall or something?
Such anger and hate as if everyone that pvps in a ffa game is a asshole.
Did you even play UO? We had a massive PKK community to protect people that would rather not pvp.
God, You come off as such a douche bag in your posts.
No offense, but....I think most people see things completely the opposite way here, in terms of "coming off as such a douche bag."
Probably not your most eloquent post, and some of your posts are so well thought out...this one kind of sounds like you ran out of arguments so began to attack the poster instead, you know, kind of a straw man sort of thing going on now.
Don't bring real life into this=) Gankers and Pkers don't think playing a game has anything to do with real life, real people or real anything. You should just take your beating like a good little sheep, NOT complain and get beat on again and again. God forbid you go play other games forcing the PKers to have to play against themselves, hehe. Then you're just an A-hole who ruined the genre for choosing to play a game you enjoy=) It has NOTHING to do with them being the a-holes right from the start. You're SUPPOSED TO enjoy getting ganked, didn't you know? Its YOUR fault for not enjoying it. YOU ruined everything for THEM! I'm so glad most developers understand that so called carebears or NORMAL people, run the genre now. PKers can go stick to free shards or cruddy MMOs no one cares about, hehe. Good riddance.
Jesus christ!!!
What gankers ass raped you bro?
Someone got you good dude and forced you to uninstall or something?
Such anger and hate as if everyone that pvps in a ffa game is a asshole.
Did you even play UO? We had a massive PKK community to protect people that would rather not pvp.
God, You come off as such a douche bag in your posts.
No offense, but....I think most people see things completely the opposite way here, in terms of "coming off as such a douche bag."
Probably not your most eloquent post, and some of your posts are so well thought out...this one kind of sounds like your ran out of arguments so began to attack the poster instead, you know, kind of a straw man sort of thing going on now.
Just sayin'.....
Ehhh, This guys rubs me the wrong way. He's such a pu$$.
He acts like pvers won something when every game has sometype of pvp rule set server and focused pvp games still. Shit even WoW has pvp servers where you could be camped over and over, what did this dude win?
Beggars can't be choosers. If you blind purchased a game based on some youtube videos without researching what the game is about you can't complain. Just because you dropped 50 bucks on a game, log in, walk outside town, and get ganked maybe that's not the game for you. Just leave and go play something less stressful. Gone are games you actually have to figure out how to play, these days the genre is flooded with item collector level treadmills that hold your hand the entire time. Would people still cry if all npc and mob in a game had a real person on the other side controlling them? What's the difference between a mob killing you and another player killing you. It's just a game, pixel vs. pixel. If the game advertises PVP why cry?
Don't be terrorized! You're more likely to die of a car accident, drowning, fire, or murder! More people die every year from prescription drugs than terrorism LOL!
Don't bring real life into this=) Gankers and Pkers don't think playing a game has anything to do with real life, real people or real anything. You should just take your beating like a good little sheep, NOT complain and get beat on again and again. God forbid you go play other games forcing the PKers to have to play against themselves, hehe. Then you're just an A-hole who ruined the genre for choosing to play a game you enjoy=) It has NOTHING to do with them being the a-holes right from the start. You're SUPPOSED TO enjoy getting ganked, didn't you know? Its YOUR fault for not enjoying it. YOU ruined everything for THEM! I'm so glad most developers understand that so called carebears or NORMAL people, run the genre now. PKers can go stick to free shards or cruddy MMOs no one cares about, hehe. Good riddance.
Jesus christ!!!
What gankers ass raped you bro?
Someone got you good dude and forced you to uninstall or something?
Such anger and hate as if everyone that pvps in a ffa game is a asshole.
Did you even play UO? We had a massive PKK community to protect people that would rather not pvp.
God, You come off as such a douche bag in your posts.
No offense, but....I think most people see things completely the opposite way here, in terms of "coming off as such a douche bag."
Probably not your most eloquent post, and some of your posts are so well thought out...this one kind of sounds like your ran out of arguments so began to attack the poster instead, you know, kind of a straw man sort of thing going on now.
Just sayin'.....
Ehhh, This guys rubs me the wrong way. He's such a pu$$.
He acts like pvers won something when every game has sometype of pvp rule set server and focused pvp games still. Shit even WoW has pvp servers where you could be camped over and over, what did this dude win?
Edit: editted both posts for mod approval ))
I didnt' play UO. It sucked! Seems like YOU are the one obsessed with winning and losing. I was only talking about the direction of the genre. Pretty simple. And by the way, I played on a PvP server in WOW and loved every minute of it. PKing is very different than just open PvP, and PKing with a harsh penalty is the major problem. I didn't mind getting ganked in WOW, because most of the time I turned the tables on the ganker or had more friends with me then he did, so I always got the last laugh. PvP is FUN. PvP with harsh penalties that allow the minority to grief people is NOT fun and most developers have made sure not to include NON-fun activites in their MMOs. UO only lasted a mere 2 years before Trammel came. A tiny blip. Wasn't it obvious that was not going to be the way MMO were supposed to be? Deal with it.
Seems like Metalhead has his panties is a bunch over MMOs not continuing in the direction he wants. Who the one with the issues here again? Nice name calling by the way.
Originally posted by metalhead980 Ehhh, This guys rubs me the wrong way. He's such a pu$$. He acts like pvers won something when every game has sometype of pvp rule set server and focused pvp games still. Shit even WoW has pvp servers where you could be camped over and over, what did this dude win?
Edit: editted both posts for mod approval ))
There's a lot of hate from both sides of the fence. There are many PvEers that are bitter for having to endure unprovoked ganks due to previous game mechanics. And then there are many gankers that are upset because they lost their easy targets. Granted, there are PvPers that are perfectly fine with it one way or the other.
But I would say that PvEers did in a sense win something. They won the right to have a non PvP ruleset gamespace. This likely prompted MMOs that game after to follow suit in splitting their PvP and PvE with optional PvP rulesets between separate servers, because the industry learned that there are many players who simply take FFA PvP rulesets to the extreme to the detriment of many other players who simply want to enjoy the game without getting ganked.
When you mix PvP and PvE into the same gamespace, you're always going to end up with someone being upset, especially when some who opt for PvP take things a little too far. I think it's better off for both groups of players to just keep clear of each other and have their own game/server rulesets that do not clash.
Originally posted by Briansho Beggars can't be choosers. If you blind purchased a game based on some youtube videos without researching what the game is about you can't complain. Just because you dropped 50 bucks on a game, log in, walk outside town, and get ganked maybe that's not the game for you. Just leave and go play something less stressful. Gone are games you actually have to figure out how to play, these days the genre is flooded with item collector level treadmills that hold your hand the entire time. Would people still cry if all npc and mob in a game had a real person on the other side controlling them? What's the difference between a mob killing you and another player killing you. It's just a game, pixel vs. pixel. If the game advertises PVP why cry?
If an NPC or mob had another players controlling them, it wouldn't be an NPC/mob.
The difference between the two is that an NPC and mob isn't petty, vindictive, sadistic, or nasty without provocation.
There are have been countless instances in the past where ganking wasn't just about one or more players killing someone else's character. It was repeated and prolonged following, killing, stealing, verbally harassing, etc against a player to the point where it could, and probably has, caused emotional distress.
I'm sure that if someone just bought the game and this happened to them, it would be easy for them to just log out and toss the game in the trash. But, it's different if you've invested a good deal of time into the game and your characters. it's not so easy to just walk away from something you've spent a lot of time on, and things tend to get more personal/emotional as well when it's with something you've sunk countless hours into.
Yes it may seem silly from an outside perspective, but it's human nature to get attached to things we invest ourselves in. That is what many gankers prey on, and take enjoyment from when they harass other players.
Don't bring real life into this=) Gankers and Pkers don't think playing a game has anything to do with real life, real people or real anything. You should just take your beating like a good little sheep, NOT complain and get beat on again and again. God forbid you go play other games forcing the PKers to have to play against themselves, hehe. Then you're just an A-hole who ruined the genre for choosing to play a game you enjoy=) It has NOTHING to do with them being the a-holes right from the start. You're SUPPOSED TO enjoy getting ganked, didn't you know? Its YOUR fault for not enjoying it. YOU ruined everything for THEM! I'm so glad most developers understand that so called carebears or NORMAL people, run the genre now. PKers can go stick to free shards or cruddy MMOs no one cares about, hehe. Good riddance.
Jesus christ!!!
What gankers ass raped you bro?
Someone got you good dude and forced you to uninstall or something?
Such anger and hate as if everyone that pvps in a ffa game is a asshole.
Did you even play UO? We had a massive PKK community to protect people that would rather not pvp.
God, You come off as such a douche bag in your posts.
No offense, but....I think most people see things completely the opposite way here, in terms of "coming off as such a douche bag."
Probably not your most eloquent post, and some of your posts are so well thought out...this one kind of sounds like your ran out of arguments so began to attack the poster instead, you know, kind of a straw man sort of thing going on now.
Just sayin'.....
Ehhh, This guys rubs me the wrong way. He's such a pu$$.
He acts like pvers won something when every game has sometype of pvp rule set server and focused pvp games still. Shit even WoW has pvp servers where you could be camped over and over, what did this dude win?
Edit: editted both posts for mod approval ))
I didnt' play UO. It sucked! Seems like YOU are the one obsessed with winning and losing. I was only talking about the direction of the genre. Pretty simple. And by the way, I played on a PvP server in WOW and loved every minute of it. PKing is very different than just open PvP, and PKing with a harsh penalty is the major problem. I didn't mind getting ganked in WOW, because most of the time I turned the tables on the ganker or had more friends with me then he did, so I always got the last laugh. PvP is FUN. PvP with harsh penalties that allow the minority to grief people is NOT fun and most developers have made sure not to include NON-fun activites in their MMOs. UO only lasted a mere 2 years before Trammel came. A tiny blip. Wasn't it obvious that was not going to be the way MMO were supposed to be? Deal with it.
Seems like Metalhead has his panties is a bunch over MMOs not continuing in the direction he wants. Who the one with the issues here again? Nice name calling by the way.
MMO's not continuing in what direction? THe ffa gank fests? I never liked them anyway, like I said I was an anti ganker. I still have great games that have pvp with meaning. I was an anti PK so I liked trammel. I played Both EQ and UO and enjoyed both games.
I honeslty dont get people like you. You level on a pvp server in WoW and just because you don;t lose items its fine and fun?
Why the need to be so attached to items? IN games with Item loss everything could be replaced by visiting a crafter or a market.
It's the same as a repair bill so why the hate? Why do you give people shit for liking ffa pvp? for liking large scale pvp?
You need to step away from WoW dude. Items shouldnt be everything.
I deal with people like you in Eve, they get so attached to items that they can't have any fun at all.
I've never been one to want the mmo genre to only go one way like yourself. Every sandbox forum I post in I say the games need to emulate Eve and its empire space because camping newbs just out of starter towns is lame.
Noone enjoyed getting ganked in UO as a gatherer or non-pvp player. I was glad EQ came out because again we had variety.
It just pisses me off when people like yourself only want things one way, there's a market for ffa pvp, instance pvp and all kinds of settings and mechanics.
Beggars can't be choosers. If you blind purchased a game based on some youtube videos without researching what the game is about you can't complain. Just because you dropped 50 bucks on a game, log in, walk outside town, and get ganked maybe that's not the game for you. Just leave and go play something less stressful. Gone are games you actually have to figure out how to play, these days the genre is flooded with item collector level treadmills that hold your hand the entire time. Would people still cry if all npc and mob in a game had a real person on the other side controlling them? What's the difference between a mob killing you and another player killing you. It's just a game, pixel vs. pixel. If the game advertises PVP why cry?
If an NPC or mob had another players controlling them, it wouldn't be an NPC/mob.
The difference between the two is that an NPC and mob isn't petty, vindictive, sadistic, or nasty without provocation.
There are have been countless instances in the past where ganking wasn't just about one or more players killing someone else's character. It was repeated and prolonged following, killing, stealing, verbally harassing, etc against a player to the point where it could, and probably has, caused emotional distress.
I'm sure that if someone just bought the game and this happened to them, it would be easy for them to just log out and toss the game in the trash. But, it's different if you've invested a good deal of time into the game and your characters. it's not so easy to just walk away from something you've spent a lot of time on, and things tend to get more personal/emotional as well when it's with something you've sunk countless hours into.
Yes it may seem silly from an outside perspective, but it's human nature to get attached to things we invest ourselves in. That is what many gankers prey on, and take enjoyment from when they harass other players.
Good points. I don't really understand why people get upset in MMO but not FPS. After all they are both game and pixel. Some people say pkers/gankers have mental issues but what about the millions of people who play FPS? They have issues as well?I think MMO eventually will lead to invincibility modes where no one ever dies from anything and all PVP is a duel.
Don't be terrorized! You're more likely to die of a car accident, drowning, fire, or murder! More people die every year from prescription drugs than terrorism LOL!
Beggars can't be choosers. If you blind purchased a game based on some youtube videos without researching what the game is about you can't complain. Just because you dropped 50 bucks on a game, log in, walk outside town, and get ganked maybe that's not the game for you. Just leave and go play something less stressful. Gone are games you actually have to figure out how to play, these days the genre is flooded with item collector level treadmills that hold your hand the entire time. Would people still cry if all npc and mob in a game had a real person on the other side controlling them? What's the difference between a mob killing you and another player killing you. It's just a game, pixel vs. pixel. If the game advertises PVP why cry?
If an NPC or mob had another players controlling them, it wouldn't be an NPC/mob.
The difference between the two is that an NPC and mob isn't petty, vindictive, sadistic, or nasty without provocation.
There are have been countless instances in the past where ganking wasn't just about one or more players killing someone else's character. It was repeated and prolonged following, killing, stealing, verbally harassing, etc against a player to the point where it could, and probably has, caused emotional distress.
I'm sure that if someone just bought the game and this happened to them, it would be easy for them to just log out and toss the game in the trash. But, it's different if you've invested a good deal of time into the game and your characters. it's not so easy to just walk away from something you've spent a lot of time on, and things tend to get more personal/emotional as well when it's with something you've sunk countless hours into.
Yes it may seem silly from an outside perspective, but it's human nature to get attached to things we invest ourselves in. That is what many gankers prey on, and take enjoyment from when they harass other players.
Good points. I don't really understand why people get upset in MMO but not FPS. After all they are both game and pixel. Some people say pkers/gankers have mental issues but what about the millions of people who play FPS? They have issues as well?I think MMO eventually will lead to invincibility modes where no one ever dies from anything and all PVP is a duel.
FPS are very single minded in what they are about. You play the game to shoot other players and get shot at. One has to be very deluded to play the games expecting something else. E-Thugs still exists but in FPS games you can easily switch maps/sessions/servers to self-select who you want to play with and against.
MMORPGs are meant to be about way more than PvP combat. Personally I am fascinated by EVE's resource and economy systems but I find that the PvP is too much of a distraction of what I really want to do in the game. One could greatly enjoy SWG without even realizing that there was supposed to be a Galactic Civil War going on.
Even worse is that MMORPGs will usually sell themselves as being about a lot more than PvP even if in reality not participating left you with a skeleton of a game to play. Pirates of the Burning Seas was a big offender here and If you just read the original FAQ on the Darkfall website, it seemed like the game would have a very serious and distinct PvE element.
Most gankers are the new generation of gamers, from WoW and such, who have no idea what a fun and meaningful conquest based world can be. Most carebears are some level of RPers who stress immersion, based on personal preference, and want basically a single player game that they can enjoy, when they're in the "mood", with a few select friends. Both have problems.
Actually I would think that the gankers are the 'old school' players from UO days while most of the carebears are johny-come-lately WoW players. At least that's what the 'general opinion' of the MMORPG community would lead me to believe.
To an extent. The gankers and RPers in UO were far different than the ones we find in the popular casual games like WoW and AoC. Many UO reds fought "fair" duels with their opponents, instead of trying to out zerg or cheat, while many RPers understood how to enjoy an open PvP sandbox world without Dev safety nets and RP effectively with the proper use of game mechanics like the thieving and murder system. I remember quite a few red duels where the stakes would not be just loot, but the loser would surrender his login information. While the Thief RPers actually lived the role they wanted ingame, unlike the majority of new generation RPers who think true RP consists of emoting in taverns and grunting like an undead.
Originally posted by Briansho Originally posted by Ceridith
Originally posted by Briansho Beggars can't be choosers. If you blind purchased a game based on some youtube videos without researching what the game is about you can't complain. Just because you dropped 50 bucks on a game, log in, walk outside town, and get ganked maybe that's not the game for you. Just leave and go play something less stressful. Gone are games you actually have to figure out how to play, these days the genre is flooded with item collector level treadmills that hold your hand the entire time. Would people still cry if all npc and mob in a game had a real person on the other side controlling them? What's the difference between a mob killing you and another player killing you. It's just a game, pixel vs. pixel. If the game advertises PVP why cry?
If an NPC or mob had another players controlling them, it wouldn't be an NPC/mob. The difference between the two is that an NPC and mob isn't petty, vindictive, sadistic, or nasty without provocation. There are have been countless instances in the past where ganking wasn't just about one or more players killing someone else's character. It was repeated and prolonged following, killing, stealing, verbally harassing, etc against a player to the point where it could, and probably has, caused emotional distress. I'm sure that if someone just bought the game and this happened to them, it would be easy for them to just log out and toss the game in the trash. But, it's different if you've invested a good deal of time into the game and your characters. it's not so easy to just walk away from something you've spent a lot of time on, and things tend to get more personal/emotional as well when it's with something you've sunk countless hours into. Yes it may seem silly from an outside perspective, but it's human nature to get attached to things we invest ourselves in. That is what many gankers prey on, and take enjoyment from when they harass other players.
Good points. I don't really understand why people get upset in MMO but not FPS. After all they are both game and pixel. Some people say pkers/gankers have mental issues but what about the millions of people who play FPS? They have issues as well?I think MMO eventually will lead to invincibility modes where no one ever dies from anything and all PVP is a duel.
As I mentioned is my previous post, because we invest so much more time to advance our characters, we get emotionally attached to them on some level, which varies from person to person. When another player goes out of their way to be nasty to our character, some of us take it personally sometimes. Again, it may seem illogical or unreasonable looking at it from outside of the situation, but then again so does aimlessly ganking other players who are helpless to defend themselves with literally no gain from doing so, yet that doesn't stop certain players from going out of their way to harass other players by ganking them.
Also mentioned by another poster, FPS games are a lot easier to remove yourself from the situation without completely being shut out from playing the game. It's very easy in an FPS to leave one game server and join another. There's very little time invested in a particular play session, mainly because 'character advancement' is extremely limited at best.
An MMO on the other hand, especially with fixed character names, friends lists, the inability to readily change servers, etc, it's a lot easier for players to take harassment to a whole new level. To the point where one or more players can make every second of gameplay miserable for another player, and the victim has little recourse short of reporting said players for harassment and hoping GMs do something about it, or just not playing the game if not completely starting over on another server or shelling out cash for a server transfer if the option is even available.
The above transcends just PvP related harassment. There have been many players that have been verbally harassed through MMOs without provocation, along with female players being sexually harassed and stalked in-game. Sadly harassment is a big issue in MMOs, where some players seem to take some sort of sick pleasure in tormenting other people while they hide behind the anonymity and safety of the Internet. it's really disgusting how some people behave, and even more disturbing that many of them get away with it.
MMO's not continuing in what direction? THe ffa gank fests? I never liked them anyway, like I said I was an anti ganker. I still have great games that have pvp with meaning. I was an anti PK so I liked trammel. I played Both EQ and UO and enjoyed both games.
I honeslty dont get people like you. You level on a pvp server in WoW and just because you don;t lose items its fine and fun?
Yes, I don't need to be kicked in the nuts to have fun;) I'm normal. Sue me.
Why the need to be so attached to items? IN games with Item loss everything could be replaced by visiting a crafter or a market.
I only get attached to something that requires effort to obtain. If I put in the effort, allowing someone else to take it away, isn't my idea of fun. MMOs with replaceable gear are boring to me. Its a time sink rebuying everything. Its boring using it. Its boring losing it. If its near worthless and replacable, the concept of looting it is also pointless.
It's the same as a repair bill so why the hate? Why do you give people shit for liking ffa pvp? for liking large scale pvp?
A repair bill isn't REBUYING everything;) Much different. Theres nothing wrong with large scale PvP either. I just find it tiring when I know what I do basically doesn't matter and in large scale PvP what a person does really doesn't matter. Nothing wrong with FFA PvP either, without harsh penalties mind you. Its YOU who has the problems here. YOU'RE the one complaining all the time about how sucky everything is. YOU'RE the one blaming WOW, its community and eveything else on the sorry state of things. I only respond to those sorts of complaints, so when MMOs don't have THOSE features that people really don't want, it upsets people like YOU. DO you not read what you type?
You need to step away from WoW dude. Items shouldnt be everything.
Never said items are everything. I stepped away from WOW a while ago. I had fun. I grew bored. I quit. YOU need to stop living 10 yrs ago and stop obsessing over those who have can just have fun playing a videogame and not turning it into a way of life.
I deal with people like you in Eve, they get so attached to items that they can't have any fun at all.
I don't blame people in EVE getting upset when hrs or days of their life is erased in an instant. You shouldn't either.
I've never been one to want the mmo genre to only go one way like yourself. Every sandbox forum I post in I say the games need to emulate Eve and its empire space because camping newbs just out of starter towns is lame.
Seems quite apparent you don't want MMOs to have features that most people enjoy, which makes. What I enjoy is what MOST people enjoy. I agree, PKing is lame. Since fair fights are what you're looking for, it seems hypocritical why you're against arena play which is the most fair and competitive form of PvP there is.
Noone enjoyed getting ganked in UO as a gatherer or non-pvp player. I was glad EQ came out because again we had variety.
Agreed. Most people also agreed and left Felucia or UO completely within days.
It just pisses me off when people like yourself only want things one way, there's a market for ffa pvp, instance pvp and all kinds of settings and mechanics.
I've continously stated MMOs should have lots of features. Just not massive time sinks and massive penalties, which you have shown you're for, which means what you want will never exist in anything other than a niche game. I don't mind games doing exactly what you want. But YOU expect a major developer to do it and are confused as to why they choose not to. Good luck with that=)
You keep wondering why MMOs are the way they are and complain about it quite often. MMOs aren't going to go back to the way they used to be and it should be obvious why. If hearing that upsets you so, time to quit the genre and stop complaining about it or blaming EVERYTHING on WOW, Blizzard and its playerbase. Blizzard gave MOST people what they wanted. If that upsets you, who's fault is that? Not Blizzards.
The first time I heard the term "carebear" in MMO speak, it was when a ninja stole my mining point. I tossed some foul language at the ninja. The ninja then proceeded to send me messages adamantly apologizing, then started sending me mail after mail with all of her loot. I told my brother about this, and he said "Ohh, yea. That's a carebear."
So the definition of the term - to me - is an MMO gamer who is bent on pleasing the crowd, and cannot handle being called out for their devious acts. PVPers generally are not in this category. PVPers thrive on pissing people off, and equally thrive on the consequence (such as name calling).
You can't use the tools if you don't know they exist... http://www.ic3.gov - Internet Crime Complaint Center - Report cyber crimes to the FBI.
I enjoy games that are challenging. WoW is not challenging. WoW PvP does not exist, it is something you do inside of protected instances that are not even on your own server. WoWs PvP servers do not have any PvP. If you actually played one, you would realize they have no PvP. Why would anyone PvP when there is no reason to fight? When you kill someone and they come back in ghost form and jump you when you're fighting NPCs. There isn't even a death penalty in WoW. So PvP on WoWs PvP server is just a matter of who has more time, not who is better. That's why no one PvPs in WoW. I don't care about "ganking nubs" I just prefer games where PvE and PvP are somehow integrated and PvP is on your own server. Some people like their MMORPGs like Diablo 2 though, just go into a new room every 5 minutes.
You're basically saying that competitive PvP is not PvP at all. Think again buddy. In my mind, competitive PvP is the only challenging PvP out there.
How is it challenging to go into an instance and PvP 2 random people over and over? If you even touched the WoWs arena system you would see how junky it is. Highest ranking players are always going to be certain class combinations / build combinations. It'll always be unbalanced and broken, and it will always suck.
I don't find it fun, because killing those players in instances has no effect on your own server. You just fight random people every time, it might as well be NPCs you are fighting, because they don't really exist.
The only challenging PvP? How is it challenging when it consists of predictable strategies? There are only so many ways you can put a 2v2 team together. There are only so many strategies. There are only so many class/build combinations you can fight against in a 2v2. Now, open that shitty arena to large scale PvP.. 40v40 and 80v80's, that might get interesting. Of course, WoWs PvP is just about keeping small amounts of people fighting each other because they are a cheap ass shitty company that wants to save bandwidth costs so they instance everything possible.
WoW PVP is all static, because you control when and where and you already know how to deal with 2 opponents of a certain build.
EQ PvP is dynamic, things can happen in EQ PvP that can't happen in WoW PvP. The guild might be surrounding the zone you are in, or they might be hiding in a nearby zone waiting for your guild to raid something, etc.
EQ PvP was really amazing though, I don't think most people really understand how great it was. For instance, imagine you are raiding something in Kael and you get word that some other guild is on their way. Well, thats when things get interesting.. either clear the zone quickly or prepare to defend the zone from the other guilds. It's really amazing fighting over PvE content like that. It's something you guys who play WoW will never understand.
PvP should be random and dynamic, just like in the real world. You should have total control over PvP, to be able to PvP wherever you want, at any level. There shouldn't be safe zones on PvP servers. Some people just want open PvP with no hiding places, is that too much to ask for?
Companies like Blizzard suck so much, they couldn't even make one PvP server.. where they don't have instances or any PvP restrictions. They'll label their blue servers as PvP even though no one PvPs there anymore. And then we get carebears who think they've experienced true PvP because they played on such a protected server with so many rules. They've never been exposed to a game with a true PvP system like Everquest's Zek servers had..
Comments
I think you have nailed it.
There is nothing new from WoW about gankers. Ganking was hardcore during vanilla, though as time went on, there is so much to do that the ganking level became very low.
Gankers have been around since pre-trammel UO. Hanging out on the roads leading out of towns, looking to overpower anyone not in groups then berate them. I can't tell ya why it happens, but it's been happening since the inception of the "unfair advantage". A lot of the worst of them came from SB though, where that was the way of life.
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Now Playing: Skyrim, Wurm Online, Tropico 4
Waiting On: GW2, TSW, Archeage, The Rapture
Some people just get their rocks off by ganking other players, simply because they know they're causing someone else frustration. It's these players that stick in a lot of people's minds when they say "sorry but I'd prefer not to play in FFA PvP". It's hard for many players to differentiate between these "e-thugs" as you put it, and the PvPers who actually have respect for other players and actually look for a fair fight. Especially so since it seems that there are less honorable PvPers and more gankers prevalent in MMOs these days.
It's the ganker mentality that bred the venom into the "carebear" term. I remember this term exploded on the Ultima Online forums when UO had it's servers split into FFA PvP and non-PvP sides. The gankers spewed the term out with much hate at the developers, and "carebears" for ruining the game. In reality, it was the gankers that ruined their own game by creating such a hostile gameplay environment. Most players just wanted to go about their business without being jumped by a gank squad that was out for shits and giggles to slaughter players that had literally no chance to survive. The developers were simply trying to preserve the fun in the game for the true majority of the players, which were the ones that preferred occasional, optional, and fairer PvP.
I agree with this. I dont mind getting killed X number of times because me and some guy are fighting over some node of ore or other meaningful objective, but dying over and over again to a player who can only enjoy the game by inflicting frustration in others is not ok. There is a word for that kind of behaviour in real life.
Actually I would think that the gankers are the 'old school' players from UO days while most of the carebears are johny-come-lately WoW players. At least that's what the 'general opinion' of the MMORPG community would lead me to believe.
Actually I would think that the gankers are the 'old school' players from UO days while most of the carebears are johny-come-lately WoW players. At least that's what the 'general opinion' of the MMORPG community would lead me to believe.
There is nothing new in WoW about carebears either :-)
It makes me wonder how long will the WoW community be labelled as 'new'?
All their self esteem is placed into a video game character.
Some people just get their rocks off by ganking other players, simply because they know they're causing someone else frustration. It's these players that stick in a lot of people's minds when they say "sorry but I'd prefer not to play in FFA PvP". It's hard for many players to differentiate between these "e-thugs" as you put it, and the PvPers who actually have respect for other players and actually look for a fair fight. Especially so since it seems that there are less honorable PvPers and more gankers prevalent in MMOs these days.
It's the ganker mentality that bred the venom into the "carebear" term. I remember this term exploded on the Ultima Online forums when UO had it's servers split into FFA PvP and non-PvP sides. The gankers spewed the term out with much hate at the developers, and "carebears" for ruining the game. In reality, it was the gankers that ruined their own game by creating such a hostile gameplay environment. Most players just wanted to go about their business without being jumped by a gank squad that was out for shits and giggles to slaughter players that had literally no chance to survive. The developers were simply trying to preserve the fun in the game for the true majority of the players, which were the ones that preferred occasional, optional, and fairer PvP.
I agree with this. I dont mind getting killed X number of times because me and some guy are fighting over some node of ore or other meaningful objective, but dying over and over again to a player who can only enjoy the game by inflicting frustration in others is not ok. There is a word for that kind of behaviour in real life.
Don't bring real life into this=) Gankers and Pkers don't think playing a game has anything to do with real life, real people or real anything. You should just take your beating like a good little sheep, NOT complain and get beat on again and again. God forbid you go play other games forcing the PKers to have to play against themselves, hehe. Then you're just an A-hole who ruined the genre for choosing to play a game you enjoy=) It has NOTHING to do with them being the a-holes right from the start. You're SUPPOSED TO enjoy getting ganked, didn't you know? Its YOUR fault for not enjoying it. YOU ruined everything for THEM!
I'm so glad most developers understand that so called carebears or NORMAL people, run the genre now. PKers can go stick to free shards or cruddy MMOs no one cares about, hehe. Good riddance.
yeah.............
PLaying: EvE, Ryzom
Waiting For: Earthrise, Perpetuum
Jesus christ!!!
What gankers ass raped you bro?
Someone got you good dude and forced you to uninstall or something?
Such anger and hate as if everyone that pvps in a ffa game is a asshole.
Did you even play UO? We had a massive PKK community to protect people that would rather not pvp.
God, You come off as such a douche bag in your posts.
No offense, but....I think most people see things completely the opposite way here, in terms of "coming off as such a douche bag."
Probably not your most eloquent post, and some of your posts are so well thought out...this one kind of sounds like you ran out of arguments so began to attack the poster instead, you know, kind of a straw man sort of thing going on now.
Just sayin'.....
President of The Marvelously Meowhead Fan Club
Jesus christ!!!
What gankers ass raped you bro?
Someone got you good dude and forced you to uninstall or something?
Such anger and hate as if everyone that pvps in a ffa game is a asshole.
Did you even play UO? We had a massive PKK community to protect people that would rather not pvp.
God, You come off as such a douche bag in your posts.
No offense, but....I think most people see things completely the opposite way here, in terms of "coming off as such a douche bag."
Probably not your most eloquent post, and some of your posts are so well thought out...this one kind of sounds like your ran out of arguments so began to attack the poster instead, you know, kind of a straw man sort of thing going on now.
Just sayin'.....
Ehhh, This guys rubs me the wrong way. He's such a pu$$.
He acts like pvers won something when every game has sometype of pvp rule set server and focused pvp games still. Shit even WoW has pvp servers where you could be camped over and over, what did this dude win?
Edit: editted both posts for mod approval
))
PLaying: EvE, Ryzom
Waiting For: Earthrise, Perpetuum
Beggars can't be choosers. If you blind purchased a game based on some youtube videos without researching what the game is about you can't complain. Just because you dropped 50 bucks on a game, log in, walk outside town, and get ganked maybe that's not the game for you. Just leave and go play something less stressful. Gone are games you actually have to figure out how to play, these days the genre is flooded with item collector level treadmills that hold your hand the entire time. Would people still cry if all npc and mob in a game had a real person on the other side controlling them? What's the difference between a mob killing you and another player killing you. It's just a game, pixel vs. pixel. If the game advertises PVP why cry?
Don't be terrorized! You're more likely to die of a car accident, drowning, fire, or murder! More people die every year from prescription drugs than terrorism LOL!
Jesus christ!!!
What gankers ass raped you bro?
Someone got you good dude and forced you to uninstall or something?
Such anger and hate as if everyone that pvps in a ffa game is a asshole.
Did you even play UO? We had a massive PKK community to protect people that would rather not pvp.
God, You come off as such a douche bag in your posts.
No offense, but....I think most people see things completely the opposite way here, in terms of "coming off as such a douche bag."
Probably not your most eloquent post, and some of your posts are so well thought out...this one kind of sounds like your ran out of arguments so began to attack the poster instead, you know, kind of a straw man sort of thing going on now.
Just sayin'.....
Ehhh, This guys rubs me the wrong way. He's such a pu$$.
He acts like pvers won something when every game has sometype of pvp rule set server and focused pvp games still. Shit even WoW has pvp servers where you could be camped over and over, what did this dude win?
Edit: editted both posts for mod approval
))
I didnt' play UO. It sucked! Seems like YOU are the one obsessed with winning and losing. I was only talking about the direction of the genre. Pretty simple. And by the way, I played on a PvP server in WOW and loved every minute of it. PKing is very different than just open PvP, and PKing with a harsh penalty is the major problem. I didn't mind getting ganked in WOW, because most of the time I turned the tables on the ganker or had more friends with me then he did, so I always got the last laugh. PvP is FUN. PvP with harsh penalties that allow the minority to grief people is NOT fun and most developers have made sure not to include NON-fun activites in their MMOs. UO only lasted a mere 2 years before Trammel came. A tiny blip. Wasn't it obvious that was not going to be the way MMO were supposed to be? Deal with it.
Seems like Metalhead has his panties is a bunch over MMOs not continuing in the direction he wants. Who the one with the issues here again? Nice name calling by the way.
There's a lot of hate from both sides of the fence. There are many PvEers that are bitter for having to endure unprovoked ganks due to previous game mechanics. And then there are many gankers that are upset because they lost their easy targets. Granted, there are PvPers that are perfectly fine with it one way or the other.
But I would say that PvEers did in a sense win something. They won the right to have a non PvP ruleset gamespace. This likely prompted MMOs that game after to follow suit in splitting their PvP and PvE with optional PvP rulesets between separate servers, because the industry learned that there are many players who simply take FFA PvP rulesets to the extreme to the detriment of many other players who simply want to enjoy the game without getting ganked.
When you mix PvP and PvE into the same gamespace, you're always going to end up with someone being upset, especially when some who opt for PvP take things a little too far. I think it's better off for both groups of players to just keep clear of each other and have their own game/server rulesets that do not clash.
If an NPC or mob had another players controlling them, it wouldn't be an NPC/mob.
The difference between the two is that an NPC and mob isn't petty, vindictive, sadistic, or nasty without provocation.
There are have been countless instances in the past where ganking wasn't just about one or more players killing someone else's character. It was repeated and prolonged following, killing, stealing, verbally harassing, etc against a player to the point where it could, and probably has, caused emotional distress.
I'm sure that if someone just bought the game and this happened to them, it would be easy for them to just log out and toss the game in the trash. But, it's different if you've invested a good deal of time into the game and your characters. it's not so easy to just walk away from something you've spent a lot of time on, and things tend to get more personal/emotional as well when it's with something you've sunk countless hours into.
Yes it may seem silly from an outside perspective, but it's human nature to get attached to things we invest ourselves in. That is what many gankers prey on, and take enjoyment from when they harass other players.
Jesus christ!!!
What gankers ass raped you bro?
Someone got you good dude and forced you to uninstall or something?
Such anger and hate as if everyone that pvps in a ffa game is a asshole.
Did you even play UO? We had a massive PKK community to protect people that would rather not pvp.
God, You come off as such a douche bag in your posts.
No offense, but....I think most people see things completely the opposite way here, in terms of "coming off as such a douche bag."
Probably not your most eloquent post, and some of your posts are so well thought out...this one kind of sounds like your ran out of arguments so began to attack the poster instead, you know, kind of a straw man sort of thing going on now.
Just sayin'.....
Ehhh, This guys rubs me the wrong way. He's such a pu$$.
He acts like pvers won something when every game has sometype of pvp rule set server and focused pvp games still. Shit even WoW has pvp servers where you could be camped over and over, what did this dude win?
Edit: editted both posts for mod approval
))
I didnt' play UO. It sucked! Seems like YOU are the one obsessed with winning and losing. I was only talking about the direction of the genre. Pretty simple. And by the way, I played on a PvP server in WOW and loved every minute of it. PKing is very different than just open PvP, and PKing with a harsh penalty is the major problem. I didn't mind getting ganked in WOW, because most of the time I turned the tables on the ganker or had more friends with me then he did, so I always got the last laugh. PvP is FUN. PvP with harsh penalties that allow the minority to grief people is NOT fun and most developers have made sure not to include NON-fun activites in their MMOs. UO only lasted a mere 2 years before Trammel came. A tiny blip. Wasn't it obvious that was not going to be the way MMO were supposed to be? Deal with it.
Seems like Metalhead has his panties is a bunch over MMOs not continuing in the direction he wants. Who the one with the issues here again? Nice name calling by the way.
MMO's not continuing in what direction? THe ffa gank fests? I never liked them anyway, like I said I was an anti ganker. I still have great games that have pvp with meaning. I was an anti PK so I liked trammel. I played Both EQ and UO and enjoyed both games.
I honeslty dont get people like you. You level on a pvp server in WoW and just because you don;t lose items its fine and fun?
Why the need to be so attached to items? IN games with Item loss everything could be replaced by visiting a crafter or a market.
It's the same as a repair bill so why the hate? Why do you give people shit for liking ffa pvp? for liking large scale pvp?
You need to step away from WoW dude. Items shouldnt be everything.
I deal with people like you in Eve, they get so attached to items that they can't have any fun at all.
I've never been one to want the mmo genre to only go one way like yourself. Every sandbox forum I post in I say the games need to emulate Eve and its empire space because camping newbs just out of starter towns is lame.
Noone enjoyed getting ganked in UO as a gatherer or non-pvp player. I was glad EQ came out because again we had variety.
It just pisses me off when people like yourself only want things one way, there's a market for ffa pvp, instance pvp and all kinds of settings and mechanics.
PLaying: EvE, Ryzom
Waiting For: Earthrise, Perpetuum
Personally, I think we need to keep the carebears out of Aion so it doesn't turn out like WoW. Send em back to WoW / LOTRO!! lol
"I play Tera for the gameplay"
If an NPC or mob had another players controlling them, it wouldn't be an NPC/mob.
The difference between the two is that an NPC and mob isn't petty, vindictive, sadistic, or nasty without provocation.
There are have been countless instances in the past where ganking wasn't just about one or more players killing someone else's character. It was repeated and prolonged following, killing, stealing, verbally harassing, etc against a player to the point where it could, and probably has, caused emotional distress.
I'm sure that if someone just bought the game and this happened to them, it would be easy for them to just log out and toss the game in the trash. But, it's different if you've invested a good deal of time into the game and your characters. it's not so easy to just walk away from something you've spent a lot of time on, and things tend to get more personal/emotional as well when it's with something you've sunk countless hours into.
Yes it may seem silly from an outside perspective, but it's human nature to get attached to things we invest ourselves in. That is what many gankers prey on, and take enjoyment from when they harass other players.
Good points. I don't really understand why people get upset in MMO but not FPS. After all they are both game and pixel. Some people say pkers/gankers have mental issues but what about the millions of people who play FPS? They have issues as well?I think MMO eventually will lead to invincibility modes where no one ever dies from anything and all PVP is a duel.
Don't be terrorized! You're more likely to die of a car accident, drowning, fire, or murder! More people die every year from prescription drugs than terrorism LOL!
If an NPC or mob had another players controlling them, it wouldn't be an NPC/mob.
The difference between the two is that an NPC and mob isn't petty, vindictive, sadistic, or nasty without provocation.
There are have been countless instances in the past where ganking wasn't just about one or more players killing someone else's character. It was repeated and prolonged following, killing, stealing, verbally harassing, etc against a player to the point where it could, and probably has, caused emotional distress.
I'm sure that if someone just bought the game and this happened to them, it would be easy for them to just log out and toss the game in the trash. But, it's different if you've invested a good deal of time into the game and your characters. it's not so easy to just walk away from something you've spent a lot of time on, and things tend to get more personal/emotional as well when it's with something you've sunk countless hours into.
Yes it may seem silly from an outside perspective, but it's human nature to get attached to things we invest ourselves in. That is what many gankers prey on, and take enjoyment from when they harass other players.
Good points. I don't really understand why people get upset in MMO but not FPS. After all they are both game and pixel. Some people say pkers/gankers have mental issues but what about the millions of people who play FPS? They have issues as well?I think MMO eventually will lead to invincibility modes where no one ever dies from anything and all PVP is a duel.
FPS are very single minded in what they are about. You play the game to shoot other players and get shot at. One has to be very deluded to play the games expecting something else. E-Thugs still exists but in FPS games you can easily switch maps/sessions/servers to self-select who you want to play with and against.
MMORPGs are meant to be about way more than PvP combat. Personally I am fascinated by EVE's resource and economy systems but I find that the PvP is too much of a distraction of what I really want to do in the game. One could greatly enjoy SWG without even realizing that there was supposed to be a Galactic Civil War going on.
Even worse is that MMORPGs will usually sell themselves as being about a lot more than PvP even if in reality not participating left you with a skeleton of a game to play. Pirates of the Burning Seas was a big offender here and If you just read the original FAQ on the Darkfall website, it seemed like the game would have a very serious and distinct PvE element.
Actually I would think that the gankers are the 'old school' players from UO days while most of the carebears are johny-come-lately WoW players. At least that's what the 'general opinion' of the MMORPG community would lead me to believe.
To an extent. The gankers and RPers in UO were far different than the ones we find in the popular casual games like WoW and AoC. Many UO reds fought "fair" duels with their opponents, instead of trying to out zerg or cheat, while many RPers understood how to enjoy an open PvP sandbox world without Dev safety nets and RP effectively with the proper use of game mechanics like the thieving and murder system. I remember quite a few red duels where the stakes would not be just loot, but the loser would surrender his login information. While the Thief RPers actually lived the role they wanted ingame, unlike the majority of new generation RPers who think true RP consists of emoting in taverns and grunting like an undead.
If an NPC or mob had another players controlling them, it wouldn't be an NPC/mob.
The difference between the two is that an NPC and mob isn't petty, vindictive, sadistic, or nasty without provocation.
There are have been countless instances in the past where ganking wasn't just about one or more players killing someone else's character. It was repeated and prolonged following, killing, stealing, verbally harassing, etc against a player to the point where it could, and probably has, caused emotional distress.
I'm sure that if someone just bought the game and this happened to them, it would be easy for them to just log out and toss the game in the trash. But, it's different if you've invested a good deal of time into the game and your characters. it's not so easy to just walk away from something you've spent a lot of time on, and things tend to get more personal/emotional as well when it's with something you've sunk countless hours into.
Yes it may seem silly from an outside perspective, but it's human nature to get attached to things we invest ourselves in. That is what many gankers prey on, and take enjoyment from when they harass other players.
Good points. I don't really understand why people get upset in MMO but not FPS. After all they are both game and pixel. Some people say pkers/gankers have mental issues but what about the millions of people who play FPS? They have issues as well?I think MMO eventually will lead to invincibility modes where no one ever dies from anything and all PVP is a duel.
As I mentioned is my previous post, because we invest so much more time to advance our characters, we get emotionally attached to them on some level, which varies from person to person. When another player goes out of their way to be nasty to our character, some of us take it personally sometimes. Again, it may seem illogical or unreasonable looking at it from outside of the situation, but then again so does aimlessly ganking other players who are helpless to defend themselves with literally no gain from doing so, yet that doesn't stop certain players from going out of their way to harass other players by ganking them.
Also mentioned by another poster, FPS games are a lot easier to remove yourself from the situation without completely being shut out from playing the game. It's very easy in an FPS to leave one game server and join another. There's very little time invested in a particular play session, mainly because 'character advancement' is extremely limited at best.
An MMO on the other hand, especially with fixed character names, friends lists, the inability to readily change servers, etc, it's a lot easier for players to take harassment to a whole new level. To the point where one or more players can make every second of gameplay miserable for another player, and the victim has little recourse short of reporting said players for harassment and hoping GMs do something about it, or just not playing the game if not completely starting over on another server or shelling out cash for a server transfer if the option is even available.
The above transcends just PvP related harassment. There have been many players that have been verbally harassed through MMOs without provocation, along with female players being sexually harassed and stalked in-game. Sadly harassment is a big issue in MMOs, where some players seem to take some sort of sick pleasure in tormenting other people while they hide behind the anonymity and safety of the Internet. it's really disgusting how some people behave, and even more disturbing that many of them get away with it.
MMO's not continuing in what direction? THe ffa gank fests? I never liked them anyway, like I said I was an anti ganker. I still have great games that have pvp with meaning. I was an anti PK so I liked trammel. I played Both EQ and UO and enjoyed both games.
I honeslty dont get people like you. You level on a pvp server in WoW and just because you don;t lose items its fine and fun?
Yes, I don't need to be kicked in the nuts to have fun;) I'm normal. Sue me.
Why the need to be so attached to items? IN games with Item loss everything could be replaced by visiting a crafter or a market.
I only get attached to something that requires effort to obtain. If I put in the effort, allowing someone else to take it away, isn't my idea of fun. MMOs with replaceable gear are boring to me. Its a time sink rebuying everything. Its boring using it. Its boring losing it. If its near worthless and replacable, the concept of looting it is also pointless.
It's the same as a repair bill so why the hate? Why do you give people shit for liking ffa pvp? for liking large scale pvp?
A repair bill isn't REBUYING everything;) Much different. Theres nothing wrong with large scale PvP either. I just find it tiring when I know what I do basically doesn't matter and in large scale PvP what a person does really doesn't matter. Nothing wrong with FFA PvP either, without harsh penalties mind you. Its YOU who has the problems here. YOU'RE the one complaining all the time about how sucky everything is. YOU'RE the one blaming WOW, its community and eveything else on the sorry state of things. I only respond to those sorts of complaints, so when MMOs don't have THOSE features that people really don't want, it upsets people like YOU. DO you not read what you type?
You need to step away from WoW dude. Items shouldnt be everything.
Never said items are everything. I stepped away from WOW a while ago. I had fun. I grew bored. I quit. YOU need to stop living 10 yrs ago and stop obsessing over those who have can just have fun playing a videogame and not turning it into a way of life.
I deal with people like you in Eve, they get so attached to items that they can't have any fun at all.
I don't blame people in EVE getting upset when hrs or days of their life is erased in an instant. You shouldn't either.
I've never been one to want the mmo genre to only go one way like yourself. Every sandbox forum I post in I say the games need to emulate Eve and its empire space because camping newbs just out of starter towns is lame.
Seems quite apparent you don't want MMOs to have features that most people enjoy, which makes. What I enjoy is what MOST people enjoy. I agree, PKing is lame. Since fair fights are what you're looking for, it seems hypocritical why you're against arena play which is the most fair and competitive form of PvP there is.
Noone enjoyed getting ganked in UO as a gatherer or non-pvp player. I was glad EQ came out because again we had variety.
Agreed. Most people also agreed and left Felucia or UO completely within days.
It just pisses me off when people like yourself only want things one way, there's a market for ffa pvp, instance pvp and all kinds of settings and mechanics.
I've continously stated MMOs should have lots of features. Just not massive time sinks and massive penalties, which you have shown you're for, which means what you want will never exist in anything other than a niche game. I don't mind games doing exactly what you want. But YOU expect a major developer to do it and are confused as to why they choose not to. Good luck with that=)
You keep wondering why MMOs are the way they are and complain about it quite often. MMOs aren't going to go back to the way they used to be and it should be obvious why. If hearing that upsets you so, time to quit the genre and stop complaining about it or blaming EVERYTHING on WOW, Blizzard and its playerbase. Blizzard gave MOST people what they wanted. If that upsets you, who's fault is that? Not Blizzards.
The first time I heard the term "carebear" in MMO speak, it was when a ninja stole my mining point. I tossed some foul language at the ninja. The ninja then proceeded to send me messages adamantly apologizing, then started sending me mail after mail with all of her loot. I told my brother about this, and he said "Ohh, yea. That's a carebear."
So the definition of the term - to me - is an MMO gamer who is bent on pleasing the crowd, and cannot handle being called out for their devious acts. PVPers generally are not in this category. PVPers thrive on pissing people off, and equally thrive on the consequence (such as name calling).
You can't use the tools if you don't know they exist...
http://www.ic3.gov - Internet Crime Complaint Center - Report cyber crimes to the FBI.
http://www.spamcop.net - SpamCop.net - Report spam and scam emails.
http://www.networksolutions.com/whois/ - Network Solutions WHOIS - Investigate and reveal suspcious websites.
Have I ever once asked for a AAA sandbox, high risk pvp game (my type of game)?
No!! So wtf are you talking about?
PLaying: EvE, Ryzom
Waiting For: Earthrise, Perpetuum
You're basically saying that competitive PvP is not PvP at all. Think again buddy. In my mind, competitive PvP is the only challenging PvP out there.
How is it challenging to go into an instance and PvP 2 random people over and over? If you even touched the WoWs arena system you would see how junky it is. Highest ranking players are always going to be certain class combinations / build combinations. It'll always be unbalanced and broken, and it will always suck.
I don't find it fun, because killing those players in instances has no effect on your own server. You just fight random people every time, it might as well be NPCs you are fighting, because they don't really exist.
The only challenging PvP? How is it challenging when it consists of predictable strategies? There are only so many ways you can put a 2v2 team together. There are only so many strategies. There are only so many class/build combinations you can fight against in a 2v2. Now, open that shitty arena to large scale PvP.. 40v40 and 80v80's, that might get interesting. Of course, WoWs PvP is just about keeping small amounts of people fighting each other because they are a cheap ass shitty company that wants to save bandwidth costs so they instance everything possible.
WoW PVP is all static, because you control when and where and you already know how to deal with 2 opponents of a certain build.
EQ PvP is dynamic, things can happen in EQ PvP that can't happen in WoW PvP. The guild might be surrounding the zone you are in, or they might be hiding in a nearby zone waiting for your guild to raid something, etc.
EQ PvP was really amazing though, I don't think most people really understand how great it was. For instance, imagine you are raiding something in Kael and you get word that some other guild is on their way. Well, thats when things get interesting.. either clear the zone quickly or prepare to defend the zone from the other guilds. It's really amazing fighting over PvE content like that. It's something you guys who play WoW will never understand.
PvP should be random and dynamic, just like in the real world. You should have total control over PvP, to be able to PvP wherever you want, at any level. There shouldn't be safe zones on PvP servers. Some people just want open PvP with no hiding places, is that too much to ask for?
Companies like Blizzard suck so much, they couldn't even make one PvP server.. where they don't have instances or any PvP restrictions. They'll label their blue servers as PvP even though no one PvPs there anymore. And then we get carebears who think they've experienced true PvP because they played on such a protected server with so many rules. They've never been exposed to a game with a true PvP system like Everquest's Zek servers had..