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Developers complain about players burning through content...
Ceridith
Member UncommonPosts: 2,980
Yet they've done very little to attempt to make dynamically generated content.
Remember Diablo? Remember how, despite how repetitive and grindy the game could be, there was still a somewhat refreshing element that the dungeons were "randomly" generated"?
Why hasn't this been taken advantage of in an MMO? Why does every single dungeon, area, mob, boss, have to be entirely pre-scripted with virtually no deviation between each time you encounter it?
The answer is that it doesn't. It's obvious there are ways to accomplish this, as it's been done many times before for other games, yet it hasn't been pulled off in an MMO. Which leaves me wondering why. One of the biggest complaints I notice developers mention is that they can't keep up with providing enough content to players at the rate players blow through it. For the months they spend creating a few dungeons, players blow through it in a fraction of the time once it's released.
So, that answer is "randomly generated" dungeons and/or areas, encounters. Now, there is obviously a limit to this, which would be that the textures, models, and "components" that are assembled together to make the final dungeons and/or areas would need to be pre-created by developers. But once this was done, all the would need to be done would be for the server to procedurally create a "randomized" area for that particular 'instanced' session, with the client possibly also being passed the seed to easily recreate the area with minimal download. In addition, if the areas were procedurally generated based on one or more seeds, it would be easily possible to recreate the same "randomized" dungeon based on a few small variables, offering the potential for players to revisit one that they particularly enjoyed.
So really, all of the concepts and technology to do it is there, it just needs to be done. Of course there are some limitations such as balancing said random encounters would be difficult, since depending on the level of randomization you could end up with an easy or a difficult encounter. However, I'm sure if it were tuned enough, these problems could be mitigated for the most part, and besides, those quirks would make it all the more interesting.
This could add significantly more re-playability to MMOs , as well as content longevity per development time, if done correct. It's a potential win-win idea for both players, and developers.
Comments
Developers complain about players burning through content...
No, they dont really, this is players. Developers simply have accepted the fact that there are some players that will burn through it. Meanwhile they are continuing to make the game, and content, as tome goes on.
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"Anyone posting on this forum is not an average user, and there for any opinions about the game are going to be overly critical compared to an average users opinions." - Me
"No, your wrong.." - Random user #123
"Hello person posting on a site specifically for MMO's in a thread on a sub forum specifically for a particular game talking about meta features and making comparisons to other titles in the genre, and their meta features.
How are you?" -Me
You need to play more MMO's. This has been done by several MMO's. City of Heroes has randomly generated "door missions" which take you into a random layout with random numbers of opponents to fight and randomly located goals. It falls flat after doing the 300th door mission just to level up.
Anarchy Online had randomly generated "door" missions long before City of Heroes did as well. It was nice light filler, but it sucked as the main form of gameplay.
Everquest had the Lost Dungeons of Norrath which had somewhat random encounters as well, it did prove to be wildly popular for awhile indicating the that idea, if not always the implementation, has a place in MMO design.
Randomly generated content has a place, but it's hard to bring any kind of depth to the game when you do it that way. An MMO needs more than juts a random dungeon crawl to thrive. It's needs solid community, a reason to play (and pay to play) beyond just trashing the local mobs. Be it PvP or indirect PvP (guild/raid/content competitions ala WoW/EQ/EQII etc). Yes I call that indirect PvP because the only real reason to be in a top tier guild is to be the "best" on your server whereas "best" is defined by being better geared and able to do more content than other real players on the server.
Just providing a place to bash monsters and get loot is a *start* for an MMO, but it is not the end. And that's where many implementations of random content fail.
Even if it's just a complaint on the player's end, it still does not discount the fact that dynamic content has the potential to add an exponential amount of 'content' per the same development time, and increase re-playability significantly. Having to navigate through a new dungeon layout with new mobs and bosses with randomized (within a specified list perhaps) abilities and quirks, would help keep MMOs fresh. Currently, when most MMOs release new dungein content for example, it's only fresh the first time you run it, with any subsequent runs feeling rather bland and repetitive.
I was not discounting anything. However this isn't a new idea. See Lost dungeons of Norah, and LOTRO skirmishes, among others.
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"Anyone posting on this forum is not an average user, and there for any opinions about the game are going to be overly critical compared to an average users opinions." - Me
"No, your wrong.." - Random user #123
"Hello person posting on a site specifically for MMO's in a thread on a sub forum specifically for a particular game talking about meta features and making comparisons to other titles in the genre, and their meta features.
How are you?" -Me
Oh I completely agree, and I probably do need to try out a few different MMOs. I'm not saying that it is the only thing to focus on, nor that static content does not have it's place. I'm simply surprised that so many MMOs and developers seem to outright dismiss dynamic content, when it offers so much potential.
Take a game like WoW for example. Content comes in at an absolute snail's pace, and the end-game is fairly firmly centered around grinding the same content over and over again. Dynamically created dungeons could significantly reduce the monotony of doing the same dungeons and raids over and over again.
Most of the problem isn't content. It is the obsessive "need" for players to strive to get to endgame as fast as humanly possible. Remove the focus of endgame and shift the focus more on the content, exploration and adventure itself. If you have a linear formula (which many current MMOs today follow) being START A ------> FINISH B. There isn't much else to do except "get to the end".
When developers realize that and begin to create things outside of "endgame", you will start to see numerous possible endgames for players. Where you START A and can end up at B, C, D, E, F or G (etc). How is this possible? Well, first is to make the world more diverse with numerous possibilities. Remove the linear aspects. And shift the main focus away from endgame. I mean, really, if you want to get to "the end" - people should go for a single player game then. If you want a new adventure everyday with new outcomes and possibilities at every turn - that should be an MMO.
Alot of older MMOs somewat focused on these things. When a new developer comes along and updates and expands on some of thse ideas, I'm sure it will be a great thing for the MMORPG genre.
Good MMO's offer both content while you level up and at end level. WoW and LOTRO is both great examples here. Whether you want to do it or not, should be decided by the player itself.
When I play WoW, I cre nothing but to get to end level. Whatsoever. For me, game start at level 80 there. When I play LOTRO, it is quite the opposite. My highest character is only level 35, and I was there at LOTRO's release. So, I am at least an example, if not good, that you cannot have a stereotypical & narrow view on the players.
Make us care MORE about our faction & world pvp!
I played lotro for a year and got to lvl 27. Reason? I played music, lots of music =D
If you stand VERY still, and close your eyes, after a minute you can actually FEEL the universe revolving around PvP.
I do agree with much of this but I think we as players have almost placed the endgame upon ourselves due to our own competitive nature. As long as there are measuring sticks (i.e. Levels) to compare our epeens with, people will always try to cram the levels down until they get there in turn exhausting the content. Really, the players are at a loss if they are subscribed and find their game boring within the month. Also, the players should really start thinking outside of just themselves (just doing group things for gear or leveling themselves etc.) and start doing things to help others as well and overall enjoy their time. The players that don't enjoy themselves are at the greatest loss and I have no sympathy for them for binging on their respective games.
You really can't entirely blame the developers, look at what your guild chat talks about alot. Recently on WoW, all mine talks about is gettin gear, and gearing up and this constant me, me, me attitude. I ask for help on my instance runs and rarely does anyone just come along just to help me, they have to find a reason to benefit themselves in order to "help " a guidmate. Now my guild is good and I love my guild, they aren't always that way, but some of the times they are and its a small family guild, I imagine the others are far worse in this department.
Ultimately, we as human beings have limitations especially when working in teams. Think some of us should learn to understand this and the companies really are trying to put their playerbase in their best interest because they have to. We as players are the ones paying their checks and they need to make sure they satisfy us or they lose out even if its just a little bit. Again one small mistake on their part can cost them and their companies thousands if not millions. Its a responsibility that they have to manage and handle with care despite what the vocal minority seem to think about their decisions.
I'll say just two words, Nyzul Isle
I played lotro for a year and got to lvl 27. Reason? I played music, lots of music =D
I just learnt to play music... took me years... of envy... hehehe... last days I have not done anything but "concerts" at the Inn in Bree
There are probably more of players like you and me, but we are, as humans complex. Sometimes there need be mighty challenges to trigger our attentions, other time, only to play music. How simple
Make us care MORE about our faction & world pvp!
One reason i see for having instances set up a certain way is to introduce a level of strategy, and dare i say, difficulty to said dungeons. We've all had the experience of "bad pulls" at one time or another. This also allows devs to set up instances so that there is a most efficient way to go through the instance, as well as making mobs difficult enough that if u pull even one or two extra mobs your probably goin' down. Having said that with all the guides and fan sites around its rare that u go into content, that while new to you, the group doesn't already know every pull in the place. Randomly generated instances would prob up the difficulty in some ways but it seems individual mobs would have to be nerfed to allow for "incorrect" pulls (or the probability of many deaths per instance will increase). I loved diablo and could definately see the place for randomly gen. dungeons in end game content for those who get bored running the same old thing.
Randomly generated PvE content is generally pretty poor. Thats what PvP is for. Its totally random and its endless. If a dungeon is random, it really isn't. Players will catch on to the patterns soon enough. Balancing would also be problematic. GOod dungeons are fun because the developers took time to craft them, test them and create interesting encounters. If its random, its just whack a mole, probably easily trvialized. I never thought AO's or COH's random dungeons were ever interesting.
Random dungeons on top of crafted ones would certainly be welcomed by most people. But they shouldn't replace anything.
bleh. wrong thread
Well that's an interesting point and all, but back when EQ implemented a similar idea they had around 400k players and the good old simple dungeon crawler of D2 had millions. It's the formula and the quality of the repeatable dungeons that count, and the way that those repeatable dungeons mesh with the mmo. Just because no developer has been able to create a mmo with high quality repeatable elements doesn't mean that it shouldn't be tried. There's a lot of people who would play for years just hunting phat lootz and most of those people are patiently waiting for a mmo to come out that's really worthy of their time. Make no mistake about it, the market is there.
To me, scripted encounters are pretty darn boring. So like you said, scripted dungeons can get really boring, and any guild worth their salt knows exactly what to do when they go to a new raid. Naturally, knowing and executing are two different things, but in general you know what's coming. Unlike good old D2 where you might work for 30 min getting down to Meph's lair and run into a lightning enchanted council with conviction. Now THAT's entertainment!
To be fair, all the complaints that I've seen about finite content has come from players, not developers. It's almost always the "most dedicated" (lit. the ones who play the most hours per week) that are the ones complaining too.
I don't think it's reasonable for people who play an MMO for upwards of 40 hours a week to complain about a lack of content. That's almost double the average playtime, and a sensible person will realise that there is only so fast that a development team can add new content.
You could try to solve it with random mission generators such as those that existed in SWG .. but that's the shallowest and least engaging form of content that I can imagine. I wouldn't find it satisfying enough to retain my interest if that was the only sort of content that the game offered.
Having both should work. All the usual "properly" made content, and a random generator for those who exhaust it. I'd prefer a scaling mechanic that allowed old content to remain challenging and prevent the type of situation that WoW has .. content becoming obsolete every time a new expansion (or content patch) is released.
Playing: EVE, Final Fantasy 13, Uncharted 2, Need for Speed: Shift
Randomly generated content was okay. Though it had major patterns. Eventually one could figure out how the whole thing was chunked together. The only thing that kept Diablo fun for me as long as it did was that a player could not fall asleep at the wheel and still succeed while providing lots of options for gameplay that could also be combined in anyway for multiplayer. MMO content and, more importantly, GAMEPLAY is rigid. My warrior masses buttons in fight X exactly the same as it does in fight Y with very little ability to change things up. The only hook is the equipment grind. "Randomly" generating the map and npc spawns would not change the hook.
Forever looking for employment. Life is rather dull without it.
The problem is, there's nothing particularly random about the AO missions, it picks from a certain number of general layouts, a certain number of goals and then sets up a requirement that if you want your high-end tokenboards, you have to run an absurd number of these almost identical missions, it's hard, especially at lower levels, to get tokens without doing a dozen of these stupid things a day. In fact, that's one of the major factors that drove me away from AO at all, the fact that I couldn't face starting another character because I knew I had hundreds of idiotic missions to run all over again.
Played: UO, EQ, WoW, DDO, SWG, AO, CoH, EvE, TR, AoC, GW, GA, Aion, Allods, lots more
Relatively Recently (Re)Played: HL2 (all), Halo (PC, all), Batman:AA; AC, ME, BS, DA, FO3, DS, Doom (all), LFD1&2, KOTOR, Portal 1&2, Blink, Elder Scrolls (all), lots more
Now Playing: None
Hope: None
As others have said, its not the developers who complain (at least publically) its the players who do most of the public complaining about blowing through content.
I mean I can see developers in the background going "FFS! Slow down a bit and you wouldnt run out so dang fast...", but when you look at the forums for a game (official or fan) you will see its always the players. And as someone has said its usually the most die-hard dedicated players who play an average of 10 hours a day. When it comes down to it, you play any game for long periods everyday you are bound to either beat the game really fast (ie single player games) or get really burned out or bored due to lack of content (ie MMOs or offline sandbox games such as the sims or sim city...).
Another thing people need to understand is that it takes a lot of work and time to make new content, specially for MMOs. There is no need to plow through the whole game in under a month because you will just hit the "To Be Continued" wall when the content runs thin. And when you have people plowing through content and then sitting at max level whining about being bored, the dev team has to make a choice; ignore them and continue making new content that gets the proper amount of attention and testing before releasing it or pushing the content through the pipe as fast as they can with minimal testing to appease these players.
Either choice will most likely cost the game some players.
Take too long to ensure the content is as ready as it should be and the people who raced to end game and slammed into the content wall will most likely leave.
Rush the content through to the live servers to make the bored players happy and they risk losing players due to bugs and broken content.
Its really a no win for the devs.
My suggestion is to slow down, enjoy the game and dont be in such a hurry to get to max. No one is going to leave you behind and your PC isnt going to explode if you dont hit 80 in a month. And if you are healthy enough to go outside there is no need to spend over a 3rd of your day inside playing a game. Go out, hang with some friends, take a walk or beat up some elderly people in the park... The game will still be there when you get home.
There are 3 types of people in the world.
1.) Those who make things happen
2.) Those who watch things happen
3.) And those who wonder "What the %#*& just happened?!"
In reference to the thread title: link or it didnt happen.
This has been taken into use almost 10 years ago by Funcom in Anarcy Online.
Current MMO player base is way more demanding then what they were 10ish years ago when there were only a handfull of MMOs on the market, back then MMOs were great even tho grindfests and extremely non-player friendly, they were NEW. Nowadays kids are demanding everything and anything.
The OP is clueless.
Its not that developers cant procedurally generate content.
Its that they purposefully want to limit it.
*starts having a vision*
december 2009, the historical era of design decisions where developers tried to create a perfectly balanced world. It didnt worked. Not because they couldnt provide a perfectly balance world, this will be achieved around 2013.
Around 2016 developers discover that a big portion of the individuals dont want a perfectly balanced world.
In 2022, a ressurgence of freedom as a value in virtual reality forces the developers into a new era.
*end of vision*
Because of power, character progression and its effects on balance.
But it doesnt stop there, the whole problem is not the balance itself, its the focus on combat, if there wasnt the focus on combat, balance wouldnt be an issue affecting entertainment.
Got it now?