Is a game really an mmo if the only players you can interact with are those on your server, such as WoW; a million+ purchased the game but you are stuck with whoever is on your server.
Or, in it's hey day, could a game such as Call of Duty 4 be called an MMO? Thousands of players were online at the same time, even though a single server maxed out with 50 players? [Of course, with such small maps 50 players was a lot.]
The WOW/Everquest model "raid", it forces each player class to be totally ballanced to anal precision. Meaning one class cannot be better then another in any way whatsoever. Basically each player class is a clone of another with different skins.
In Pre-CU SWG I was one of the least effective in combat classes, a master-ranger, however I made a buttload of money because skinning was the most expensive component to acquire for the armorsmiths.
PVP also has that effect of forcing player classes to be ballanced with anal precision.
Originally posted by Nerf09 The WOW/Everquest model "raid", it forces each player class to be totally ballanced to anal precision. Meaning one class cannot be better then another in any way whatsoever. Basically each player class is a clone of another with different skins. In Pre-CU SWG I was one of the least effective in combat classes, a master-ranger, however I made a buttload of money because skinning was the most expensive component to acquire for the armorsmiths. PVP also has that effect of forcing player classes to be ballanced with anal precision.
Exactly, and that is part of the reason I stopped playing WoW.
Dark Age of Camelot was simply a riot in PvP, lots of fun. Gear was not so important, especially in Molvic, for character levels 35 to 39, player made gear was all that was needed. And, player crafted gear could get you by in "big boy" RvR [PvP] until you could augment it with something better. Realm Rank is important in DAoC, but you could pick up RR 2L9 or something like that in Molvic before going to New Frontiers.
Intel Core i7 7700K, MB is Gigabyte Z270X-UD5 SSD x2, 4TB WD Black HHD, 32GB RAM, MSI GTX 980 Ti Lightning LE video card
After much reading of threads on these forums I've come to the conclusion that Grouping is a dying art. World of Warcraft brought a lot of single player console gamers to the MMORPG genre and things have changed to accomodate them ever since. You just need to look at how MMORPG's are made these days to realize that grouping is no longer a factor, it's all about what you can do alone instead of with groups, following quest lines instead of exploring, becoming self reliant instead of combining the efforts of multiple classes.
MMORPG's are no longer what they were. Originally MMORPG players were in the minority, as people viewed it as a hobby for geeks, and I guess it was. Now, thanks to World of Warcraft, everyone wants to join the party but be able to play the games alone or however they want to play them. Multiplayer no longer means what it says. If I go into a shop and buy a multiplayer game I expect to be fighting or working together with other players, if I pick up a single player game I expect to be playing alone. Now, Multiplayer simply means many players in the same world, they're basically selling a single player game under the guise of multiplayer so they can milk a few more dollars out of the gamers.
It's sad to see the decline of the MMORPG genre, even worse to see how quickly it fell once it was 'infected' by an outside influence. The new line of MMORPG's are games I don't recognize anymore, they started as homage to D&D style games and now are nothing more than fantasy movies where everyone plays the hero.
So this entire thread is now meaningless, as there really is no Group vs Solo anymore, the thread instead should be renamed to Old School vs New School, as group play no longer plays a part in MMORPG's. It's an option, but sadly, one seldom used.
[b]After much reading of threads on these forums I've come to the conclusion that Grouping is a dying art...b]
MMORPG's are no longer what they were. If I go into a shop and buy a multiplayer game I expect to be fighting or working together with other players, if I pick up a single player game I expect to be playing alone. Now, Multiplayer simply means many players in the same world, they're basically selling a single player game under the guise of multiplayer so they can milk a few more dollars out of the gamers...
It's sad to see the decline of the MMORPG genre, even worse to see how quickly it fell once it was 'infected' by an outside influence. The new line of MMORPG's are games I don't recognize anymore, they started as homage to D&D style games and now are nothing more than fantasy movies where everyone plays the hero.
So this entire thread is now meaningless, as there really is no Group vs Solo anymore, the thread instead should be renamed to Old School vs New School, as group play no longer plays a part in MMORPG's. It's an option, but sadly, one seldom used.
[/quote]
You have some very good points. I have had a great many games over the years and enjoyed a good portion of them. However, today I know of only one game that is stil fun, but, unfortunately, it is dieing, DAoC.
Even now, in the training area people want to group and often one new person will send another a group invite.
After that however, you need to know how to look for people to group with, but, you can still group for hunting and questing. Battle groups are still found for PvP but not nearly as often as in former days.
The easiest place to find groups is still in RvR [PvP] because there are so many people there doing the same thing. Join a battle group and announce in battle group your class lfg and a group that needs you will pick you up. And, a good BG leader will make sure everyone that wants a group gets one.
And, that is after all these years.
I know the UI is old but the graphics are good, not outstanding, but good, and that turns a lot of people off. The game play is great and people are letting the game die because the want a fancy UI... And, Mythic is at fault as well. They do not advertise the game, yet the game and all expansions are free...
Here is a game that is still great, it is free and fewer people are playing it for the wrong reasons.
I just don't get it.
Edit: It looks as though I lost formating, sorry.
Intel Core i7 7700K, MB is Gigabyte Z270X-UD5 SSD x2, 4TB WD Black HHD, 32GB RAM, MSI GTX 980 Ti Lightning LE video card
After much reading of threads on these forums I've come to the conclusion that Grouping is a dying art. World of Warcraft brought a lot of single player console gamers to the MMORPG genre and things have changed to accomodate them ever since. You just need to look at how MMORPG's are made these days to realize that grouping is no longer a factor, it's all about what you can do alone instead of with groups, following quest lines instead of exploring, becoming self reliant instead of combining the efforts of multiple classes.
MMORPG's are no longer what they were. Originally MMORPG players were in the minority, as people viewed it as a hobby for geeks, and I guess it was. Now, thanks to World of Warcraft, everyone wants to join the party but be able to play the games alone or however they want to play them. Multiplayer no longer means what it says. If I go into a shop and buy a multiplayer game I expect to be fighting or working together with other players, if I pick up a single player game I expect to be playing alone. Now, Multiplayer simply means many players in the same world, they're basically selling a single player game under the guise of multiplayer so they can milk a few more dollars out of the gamers.
It's sad to see the decline of the MMORPG genre, even worse to see how quickly it fell once it was 'infected' by an outside influence. The new line of MMORPG's are games I don't recognize anymore, they started as homage to D&D style games and now are nothing more than fantasy movies where everyone plays the hero.
So this entire thread is now meaningless, as there really is no Group vs Solo anymore, the thread instead should be renamed to Old School vs New School, as group play no longer plays a part in MMORPG's. It's an option, but sadly, one seldom used.
There was more cooperation and long term relationship making in Pre-CU SWG then there is in any WOW clone out there, not because you were forced to; not because there you were entering a Dungeon and you had to have exactly 5 players to complete it.
I don't want to deny you your content. I want to enjoy mine, which happens to be the majority.
You want to remove my content (the majority one) to promote yours (the minority one).
Yours is the unreasonable demand.
So now you're having a white knight syndrome as well? Thou are the holy one and the bad extremists want to do bad things for everyone.
All both groups of extremists need is one game that caters to them. From where you figured out that we're trying to take over the world, I don't know. That "holier than thou" attitude is pretty retarded nonetheless.
i've been reading your arguement with llvaldyr up until this point and i'm not taking sides but no where does he come off as a hypocrite he stating his thoughts, he never said we was dening someone of something he just said he wants to solo that game should cater to both. you can either except the fact that the MAJORITY of MMO players have become MMO players because of WoW. There was a flood gate opened of all people who have never played an mmo and played wow and now want to explore other games. the mass popultion are casual players now and no longer basement dwellers. You seem to just a little butt hurt that solo play is the majority.
i'm more of a group guy and don't understand why anyone would play a MMORPG and solo in the game but some people don't have enough time as the group guys. i think you should stop trying to prove your point right and start opening and accepting other peoples thoughts. do you fight like this with everyone who doesn't agree with you?
After much reading of threads on these forums I've come to the conclusion that Grouping is a dying art. World of Warcraft brought a lot of single player console gamers to the MMORPG genre and things have changed to accomodate them ever since. You just need to look at how MMORPG's are made these days to realize that grouping is no longer a factor, it's all about what you can do alone instead of with groups, following quest lines instead of exploring, becoming self reliant instead of combining the efforts of multiple classes.
MMORPG's are no longer what they were. Originally MMORPG players were in the minority, as people viewed it as a hobby for geeks, and I guess it was. Now, thanks to World of Warcraft, everyone wants to join the party but be able to play the games alone or however they want to play them. Multiplayer no longer means what it says. If I go into a shop and buy a multiplayer game I expect to be fighting or working together with other players, if I pick up a single player game I expect to be playing alone. Now, Multiplayer simply means many players in the same world, they're basically selling a single player game under the guise of multiplayer so they can milk a few more dollars out of the gamers.
It's sad to see the decline of the MMORPG genre, even worse to see how quickly it fell once it was 'infected' by an outside influence. The new line of MMORPG's are games I don't recognize anymore, they started as homage to D&D style games and now are nothing more than fantasy movies where everyone plays the hero.
So this entire thread is now meaningless, as there really is no Group vs Solo anymore, the thread instead should be renamed to Old School vs New School, as group play no longer plays a part in MMORPG's. It's an option, but sadly, one seldom used.
I think you mgith making a few assumptions there.
First of all, it looks to me like WoW brought in a lot of "non-game" players, not just console gamers.
Or at least people who are not "gamers". Of the people I know who play mmo's, with the exception of people I've met from certain mmo's (so essentially "real life"), all of them play WoW.
They are people who like games but who never really got on the mmo bandwagon until WoW became popular.
And your example of people knowingly buying multi player games but deciding they should be solo is also an assumption.
People are buying these games because they are a kin to being worlds. More than likely they just wanted to see what it was about, found they could have fun and then continued.
These games work on a more broad social level than people might realize.
Look, when I go to the movies I might go with friends but essentialy I'm not talking with those friends and neither am I I talking with the people around me. yet we have a shared experience. because that is one of the main parts about going to the movies, a shared experience.
Same with these games. Having a shared experience, even if you are not in a group, is a very attractive thing.
Like Skyrim? Need more content? Try my Skyrim mod "Godfred's Tomb."
The three people above me have made some great remarks.
I play Guild Wars, not a great deal, but I play when I can. In that game there are at least two instances where a person is forced to play solo, no grouping allowed. And, as to WoW being an MMO, yes a great many people play the game, however, when it comes time to go to an instance or dungeon how many people can get in as a group? Not many, and that makes me wonder why it is labeled an MMO for people that like to group.
For me, probably the greatest asset in any game is a voice program. During heavy combat a voice program can save a group wipe, and, when simply running solo having someone to chat with can make a world of difference, it makes the game social, even if I am solo at the time.
People matter for me and without them games become hollow, with possibly the exception of fast paced PC games such as racing and FPS.
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by soloing he infringes on other's right to group?
that is damn near the dumbest statement i've read on this board in a long time.
If i cannot play a game in a way which will be fun for me, then that defeats the purpose of playing a game.
Soloing doesn't infringe on grouping but getting all the content to be for soloing does.
Next Generation MMOs almost exclusively cater to solo leveling. It makes grouping trivial because the mobs are so pathetic and weak. Some have group content such as dungeons/instances but that brings in a whole range of difficulties of finding a group/members, travel, stupid players etc etc. Grouping should always be more viable then soloing because of this difficulty. In order to make it worth while to do. There are many people like me who will solo in the new MMOs not because we want to but because we have no real choice. We know there will be grouping in late levels so we just do it because we have no other viable option.
Soloers come in and cry that they don't get to play their style because the game is group-centric. Football is group-centric but nobody complains that they can't play football alone. If you goto a football field and started making changes to the field so you could play it solo it's going to interfere with the way the game was meant to be played.
Soloers have it in their head that the soloing playstyle has just as much right to MMOs as grouping does and that is ridiculous because MMOs are made for multiplayer. If it isn't grouping or PVP it really isn't an MMO, call it something else. It's just a bunch of people playing a single play while sharing a chat channel. These are the same duchebags who join guilds just so they can see "Gratz" every time they level or find some gear. But never actually do anything with the guild.
Usual suspects posted about chain quests being a problem and he is 100% right. I'm currently playing EQ2 with my brother who lives in the United States and its nearly impossible for us to be able to group. Soon as one of us plays when the other isn't on we lose sync with quests and suddenly one of us has to wait around while the other one catches up to be on the same quest progression. In the old days on EQ1 we could group up at any time as long as we stayed relatively close to the same level. I had heaps of friends in EQ1 that i met doing pick up groups, I would follow those friends into guilds and on one occasion i gathered em all up and i created my own. In warcraft and EQ2 I hardly ever spoke to people I don't already know and when I do it is usually just to ask or answer a question. I didn't know anyone in WOW until i was maxed level where people actually did groups.
Some people complain about the old style of grinding to be boring. How is questing so much more exciting? They are always the same lame crap. Kill these mobs, click this flashing thing, deliver this to that guy. It's not like there really is a lot of variety in the quests. People just don't really think about it. Grouping, even if camping 1 spot, has way more variety in it because you have to cooperate with other people. The group make up is likely to change over time as people come and go. Humans are dynamic and often unpredictable. Quests are lifeless sterile and predicable. You don't even have to read em just gather em all up and click anything that is glowing/flashing or stands out in some way and kill anything in the area until one of them gives a quest update. All the wile doing the same exact skill rotations.
Does anyone know of any decent MMO that doesn't have chain quests? Besides the old ones like EQ and FFXI. I'm looking for something that has some challenge and isn't nerfed all to hell with too many conveniences. Bascially I want to go back to EQ before Luclin and planes of power came in and pretty much nerfed the game into a casual players amusement park.
Next Generation MMOs almost exclusively cater to solo leveling. It makes grouping trivial because the mobs are so pathetic and weak. Some have group content such as dungeons/instances but that brings in a whole range of difficulties of finding a group/members, travel, stupid players etc etc. Grouping should always be more viable then soloing because of this difficulty. In order to make it worth while to do. There are many people like me who will solo in the new MMOs not because we want to but because we have no real choice. We know there will be grouping in late levels so we just do it because we have no other viable option.
Soloers come in and cry that they don't get to play their style because the game is group-centric. Football is group-centric but nobody complains that they can't play football alone. If you goto a football field and started making changes to the field so you could play it solo it's going to interfere with the way the game was meant to be played.
Soloers have it in their head that the soloing playstyle has just as much right to MMOs as grouping does and that is ridiculous because MMOs are made for multiplayer. If it isn't grouping or PVP it really isn't an MMO, call it something else. It's just a bunch of people playing a single play while sharing a chat channel. These are the same duchebags who join guilds just so they can see "Gratz" every time they level or find some gear. But never actually do anything with the guild.
Usual suspects posted about chain quests being a problem and he is 100% right. I'm currently playing EQ2 with my brother who lives in the United States and its nearly impossible for us to be able to group. Soon as one of us plays when the other isn't on we lose sync with quests and suddenly one of us has to wait around while the other one catches up to be on the same quest progression. In the old days on EQ1 we could group up at any time as long as we stayed relatively close to the same level. I had heaps of friends in EQ1 that i met doing pick up groups, I would follow those friends into guilds and on one occasion i gathered em all up and i created my own. In warcraft and EQ2 I hardly ever spoke to people I don't already know and when I do it is usually just to ask or answer a question. I didn't know anyone in WOW until i was maxed level where people actually did groups.
Some people complain about the old style of grinding to be boring. How is questing so much more exciting? They are always the same lame crap. Kill these mobs, click this flashing thing, deliver this to that guy. It's not like there really is a lot of variety in the quests. People just don't really think about it. Grouping, even if camping 1 spot, has way more variety in it because you have to cooperate with other people. The group make up is likely to change over time as people come and go. Humans are dynamic and often unpredictable. Quests are lifeless sterile and predicable. You don't even have to read em just gather em all up and click anything that is glowing/flashing or stands out in some way and kill anything in the area until one of them gives a quest update. All the wile doing the same exact skill rotations.
Does anyone know of any decent MMO that doesn't have chain quests? Besides the old ones like EQ and FFXI. I'm looking for something that has some challenge and isn't nerfed all to hell with too many conveniences. Bascially I want to go back to EQ before Luclin and planes of power came in and pretty much nerfed the game into a casual players amusement park.
Next Generation MMOs almost exclusively cater to solo leveling. It makes grouping trivial because the mobs are so pathetic and weak. Some have group content such as dungeons/instances but that brings in a whole range of difficulties of finding a group/members, travel, stupid players etc etc. Grouping should always be more viable then soloing because of this difficulty. In order to make it worth while to do. There are many people like me who will solo in the new MMOs not because we want to but because we have no real choice. We know there will be grouping in late levels so we just do it because we have no other viable option.
Soloers come in and cry that they don't get to play their style because the game is group-centric. Football is group-centric but nobody complains that they can't play football alone. If you goto a football field and started making changes to the field so you could play it solo it's going to interfere with the way the game was meant to be played.
Soloers have it in their head that the soloing playstyle has just as much right to MMOs as grouping does and that is ridiculous because MMOs are made for multiplayer. If it isn't grouping or PVP it really isn't an MMO, call it something else. It's just a bunch of people playing a single play while sharing a chat channel. These are the same duchebags who join guilds just so they can see "Gratz" every time they level or find some gear. But never actually do anything with the guild.
Usual suspects posted about chain quests being a problem and he is 100% right. I'm currently playing EQ2 with my brother who lives in the United States and its nearly impossible for us to be able to group. Soon as one of us plays when the other isn't on we lose sync with quests and suddenly one of us has to wait around while the other one catches up to be on the same quest progression. In the old days on EQ1 we could group up at any time as long as we stayed relatively close to the same level. I had heaps of friends in EQ1 that i met doing pick up groups, I would follow those friends into guilds and on one occasion i gathered em all up and i created my own. In warcraft and EQ2 I hardly ever spoke to people I don't already know and when I do it is usually just to ask or answer a question. I didn't know anyone in WOW until i was maxed level where people actually did groups.
Some people complain about the old style of grinding to be boring. How is questing so much more exciting? They are always the same lame crap. Kill these mobs, click this flashing thing, deliver this to that guy. It's not like there really is a lot of variety in the quests. People just don't really think about it. Grouping, even if camping 1 spot, has way more variety in it because you have to cooperate with other people. The group make up is likely to change over time as people come and go. Humans are dynamic and often unpredictable. Quests are lifeless sterile and predicable. You don't even have to read em just gather em all up and click anything that is glowing/flashing or stands out in some way and kill anything in the area until one of them gives a quest update. All the wile doing the same exact skill rotations.
Does anyone know of any decent MMO that doesn't have chain quests? Besides the old ones like EQ and FFXI. I'm looking for something that has some challenge and isn't nerfed all to hell with too many conveniences. Bascially I want to go back to EQ before Luclin and planes of power came in and pretty much nerfed the game into a casual players amusement park.
Someone please make an MMO that isn't trivial rubbish. I'm sick of the new MMOs made for 10 year olds
After much reading of threads on these forums I've come to the conclusion that Grouping is a dying art. World of Warcraft brought a lot of single player console gamers to the MMORPG genre and things have changed to accomodate them ever since. You just need to look at how MMORPG's are made these days to realize that grouping is no longer a factor, it's all about what you can do alone instead of with groups, following quest lines instead of exploring, becoming self reliant instead of combining the efforts of multiple classes.
MMORPG's are no longer what they were. Originally MMORPG players were in the minority, as people viewed it as a hobby for geeks, and I guess it was. Now, thanks to World of Warcraft, everyone wants to join the party but be able to play the games alone or however they want to play them. Multiplayer no longer means what it says. If I go into a shop and buy a multiplayer game I expect to be fighting or working together with other players, if I pick up a single player game I expect to be playing alone. Now, Multiplayer simply means many players in the same world, they're basically selling a single player game under the guise of multiplayer so they can milk a few more dollars out of the gamers.
It's sad to see the decline of the MMORPG genre, even worse to see how quickly it fell once it was 'infected' by an outside influence. The new line of MMORPG's are games I don't recognize anymore, they started as homage to D&D style games and now are nothing more than fantasy movies where everyone plays the hero.
So this entire thread is now meaningless, as there really is no Group vs Solo anymore, the thread instead should be renamed to Old School vs New School, as group play no longer plays a part in MMORPG's. It's an option, but sadly, one seldom used.
I think you mgith making a few assumptions there.
First of all, it looks to me like WoW brought in a lot of "non-game" players, not just console gamers.
Or at least people who are not "gamers". Of the people I know who play mmo's, with the exception of people I've met from certain mmo's (so essentially "real life"), all of them play WoW.
They are people who like games but who never really got on the mmo bandwagon until WoW became popular.
And your example of people knowingly buying multi player games but deciding they should be solo is also an assumption.
People are buying these games because they are a kin to being worlds. More than likely they just wanted to see what it was about, found they could have fun and then continued.
These games work on a more broad social level than people might realize.
Look, when I go to the movies I might go with friends but essentialy I'm not talking with those friends and neither am I I talking with the people around me. yet we have a shared experience. because that is one of the main parts about going to the movies, a shared experience.
Same with these games. Having a shared experience, even if you are not in a group, is a very attractive thing.
You can play the same single player game and have a shared experience. Do you have to be logged into a server and pay $15 a month for it to be a shared experience? The problem many of us have with the soloing isn't what people do it's how the content gets destroyed for the soloist's pleasure. The soloists came into our play ground and break the Teeter-totter in half so they could sit on the broken peace of wood alone and dribble on their shirt. And we are standing there like hey WTF? They are paying their entry fee too so they have the right to wreck the place to make it fit their play style.
Someone please make an MMO that isn't trivial rubbish. I'm sick of the new MMOs made for 10 year olds
All of these comments make playing Dark Age of Camelot even more viable. If you want to solo it does not cause problems for groups. For those that group, it does not cause problems for those that solo.
DAoC has to be one of the most perfect games ever created. It has an old UI and that turns off some people, and the UI is not that combersome, and macros can be made, though they are not as robust as newer games, however the graphics are fine.
Game play in DAoC still rocks. Too bad Mythic or EA do not care about this fine game, leaving it on the vine to slowly die. Although there are still thousands of people that still cling to it.
Intel Core i7 7700K, MB is Gigabyte Z270X-UD5 SSD x2, 4TB WD Black HHD, 32GB RAM, MSI GTX 980 Ti Lightning LE video card
All of these comments make playing Dark Age of Camelot even more viable. If you want to solo it does not cause problems for groups. For those that group, it does not cause problems for those that solo.
DAoC has to be one of the most perfect games ever created. It has an old UI and that turns off some people, and the UI is not that combersome, and macros can be made, though they are not as robust as newer games, however the graphics are fine.
Game play in DAoC still rocks. Too bad Mythic or EA do not care about this fine game, leaving it on the vine to slowly die. Although there are still thousands of people that still cling to it.
Don't forget, DAoC was the first MMO to let you fully customize the UI, not WoW. If you don't like the UI? Change it. And yes, the game was balanced nearly perfectly, too bad Mythic kind of ruined it. Ironically enough, one of the things that killed DAoC was lack of groups for new players trying to learn the game (this was due to /level 20). Once soloing became the easiest way to level, the game died.
i'll say what i've said before, I personally think WoW did it best. Theres group play and solo play, but you won't get nearly as good quality gear just by soloing. I would never play a game that forced me to group 24/7, on the other hand i'd never play an mmo that was just solo play. Of course i'm a casual player (i guess? 2 hours a day) sometimes I don't have an hour to wait to join a group i'll probably leave 40 mins into it.
WoW did it in the worst possible way.
No im sorry to say this but your wrong WoW is the best example of Middle Ground Game Play. Currently there are 2 different ways to get to 80. THere is the Solo Grind thru Quests from 1-80 and there is the Random Group Finder from 15-80. Then there is the hardmodes at 70 and 80, raids with 10 man and 25 man with the level 80 raids having hard modes on both 10 man and 25 man. No where does it state that you HAVE to do dungeons or grind solo you can do either solo or group or even both.
"Possibly we humans can exist without actually having to fight. But many of us have chosen to fight. For what reason? To protect something? Protect what? Ourselves? The future? If we kill people to protect ourselves and this future, then what sort of future is it, and what will we have become? There is no future for those who have died. And what of those who did the killing? Is happiness to be found in a future that is grasped with blood stained hands? Is that the truth?"
Originally posted by swing848 All of these comments make playing Dark Age of Camelot even more viable. If you want to solo it does not cause problems for groups. For those that group, it does not cause problems for those that solo. DAoC has to be one of the most perfect games ever created. It has an old UI and that turns off some people, and the UI is not that combersome, and macros can be made, though they are not as robust as newer games, however the graphics are fine. Game play in DAoC still rocks. Too bad Mythic or EA do not care about this fine game, leaving it on the vine to slowly die. Although there are still thousands of people that still cling to it.
Don't forget, DAoC was the first MMO to let you fully customize the UI, not WoW. If you don't like the UI? Change it. And yes, the game was balanced nearly perfectly, too bad Mythic kind of ruined it. Ironically enough, one of the things that killed DAoC was lack of groups for new players trying to learn the game (this was due to /level 20). Once soloing became the easiest way to level, the game died.
Mythic addressed this, last year I believe. There is an area just for new players that introduce the game where grouping is common, and /level 20 is no longer in the game.
Intel Core i7 7700K, MB is Gigabyte Z270X-UD5 SSD x2, 4TB WD Black HHD, 32GB RAM, MSI GTX 980 Ti Lightning LE video card
i'll say what i've said before, I personally think WoW did it best. Theres group play and solo play, but you won't get nearly as good quality gear just by soloing. I would never play a game that forced me to group 24/7, on the other hand i'd never play an mmo that was just solo play. Of course i'm a casual player (i guess? 2 hours a day) sometimes I don't have an hour to wait to join a group i'll probably leave 40 mins into it.
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We've seen an abundance of these threads crop up recently, and they're all discussing the same thing. Please use this thread instead of making a new one.
Thank you.
It is rather simple use of the english language and i don't pretend to be an expert on the subject either.When yo uuse the word MASSIVELY online ,it is pretty darn easy to see that is it miles away from being in the same definition as solo.
It is like saying i want to play on a football team ALONE,is it not exactly the same?Well actually it is not quite the same becuase a football team is not massive,so lets say i want to be in the Boston MArathon but i want to be in it alone,,umm doesn't make much sense does it?Well this is what the solo people want us to believe that it does make sense.
What baffles me is people can ask for a solo game,i have absolutely no problem with that at all.However they are in some insane way asking for a multiplayer game to be a solo game as well,heck they can't see past themselves to realize the RPG genre can survive and SHOULD survive with BOTH types of design,NOT every game needs to cater to those selfish people.
Never forget 3 mile Island and never trust a government official or company spokesman.
I like occasional solo play, but I also like group play. However, finding a group of people that are 1. competent, or 2. friendly can be an issue at times.
Personally, I like being able to take time out and do some solo work myself, but I also enjoy a strong focus in group play. Recently I began playing WoW and Aion again. These two games, while similar, left me feeling somewhat different. This is my opinion and impression from playing the two. In WoW, I felt that every second in game that I wasnt doing something, was wasted. I should be farming mats, crafting stuff, putting items on the AH, looking for a group, looking for a raid, doing stuff. I would feel compelled to do something with my gametime, after dailies, and random dungeon, I felt that my time was being wasted unless I was doing something productive. However, I didnt feel like doing anything, I didnt want to farm for an hour, or hunt for a raid that wasnt comprised of barely competent people. While I felt like I had to do something, I was bored with the content and didnt want to do anything. When I resubbed to Aion, while I did feel like my time in game required attention, I could easily find something to do to fill that time that did not bore me. (Apples to oranges I know) I liked that gathering allowed me harvest items for every profession and possibly turn a profit for myself, or supply an army of alts with materials/items they need. I could sit and do craft queues (Yeah, im special in that, im highly damaged and enjoy them. Or rather, the fact that I get exp (on alts) and recipes from repeating the monotonous queues while I wait for some friends to log in) Finding a dungeon wasnt much of an issue, as I mostly had a semi static group, perhaps that part cant really compare. But in the dungeons, CC was required, not the retardation of AoEverything that WoW has become. Apples and oranges, unfair comparison. /shrug
I like group play, but I like group play that punishes failure, and promotes smart play. I dont like how WoW appears to have fostered a generation of MMO laziness, where MOAR DEEPS can solve every problem. Situational awareness, educated and wise decisions, attack sequences, crowd control. Smart gaming, smart choices, you get rewarded, poor gaming, poor choices, you are punished. I dont know if there is a game like that for me these days of Casual kiddie gamers who want instant action, NOW NOW NOW becasue the red cordial is about to run out. At least in solo play, you dont have to rely on others being competent. However im not sure that having a punishing group play to promote better players would work, perhaps promoting better group play? (Like Dark Poeta with its grading on time and points which decides loot perhaps?) Then again, a Darwinian method of dungeoning may provide more capable players than a carrot on a stick approach, perhaps if you die in a dungeon through no fault but your own, the game will uninstall itself.
Edit. Terrible spelling, more than likely missed plenty.
I like games that don't force-group. Games with both solo and group elements are fine. Soloists don't bother me. What I do find are the "why play mmo if you don't group" people so fucking annoying. What a bunch of idiots. Ingame, outside of game. Fucking retards.
You must take into account the fact that grouping takes time while soloing can be gotten into straight away. A lot of the newer MMORPG players play on a casual schedule and in order to get anything done during their short playtimes, they tend to lean more towards the 'achivement' side of things.
Grouping becomes less feasible when they can just log on, solo a few quests/etc and log off. They'd feel like they accomplished something for the day even if it's all done solo. Grouping takes time, time which they do not have.
The achivement system in certain MMOs make this even worse because most of them can be done solo. It's even easier to achieve something in that short playtime of 1-2 hours with such a system because all these achivements are recorded and tallied up in the form of points; so there's a sense of continuity.
Group play will continue to see a decline simply due to the playstyle of the average MMO consumer nowadays. Games will become more solo -centric in order to cater to such gamers. Take the recently released FF14 for example. All through the development process, it's been said that it will reduce focus on group play (FF11) and introduce more solo opportunities. Their leve system was designed ground up with the solo player in mind.
Sadly, it's all about catering to the lowest common denominator.
I like group play, but I like group play that punishes failure, and promotes smart play.
I agree, grouping for it's own sake should not be encouraged; i know it's a losing battle.
In many of the newer MMOs, grouping at the endgame is superficial; a necessary thing to do in order to get what you want. Take WoW for example. Grouping is now so simple and you even get ported right into the instance without having to leave the town. Grouping for it's own sake; once you complete the dungeon, the group is dropped and you dont have to bother about it anymore. Cross server grouping eliminates party etiquette and reduces responsibility. Grouping is still there but it's often forced and empty.
I think the question to ask now is whether grouping nowadays can be compared to what it once was.
Comments
It's a problem of balance
A good mmo game should be like that you can solo for some hours while you can play with others at any time you wish
If you're consistently soloing in an MMO then you are going to wear the skin off your palms. Go group, and wear them down.
^^^^^
The WOW/Everquest model "raid", it forces each player class to be totally ballanced to anal precision. Meaning one class cannot be better then another in any way whatsoever. Basically each player class is a clone of another with different skins.
In Pre-CU SWG I was one of the least effective in combat classes, a master-ranger, however I made a buttload of money because skinning was the most expensive component to acquire for the armorsmiths.
PVP also has that effect of forcing player classes to be ballanced with anal precision.
Exactly, and that is part of the reason I stopped playing WoW.
Dark Age of Camelot was simply a riot in PvP, lots of fun. Gear was not so important, especially in Molvic, for character levels 35 to 39, player made gear was all that was needed. And, player crafted gear could get you by in "big boy" RvR [PvP] until you could augment it with something better. Realm Rank is important in DAoC, but you could pick up RR 2L9 or something like that in Molvic before going to New Frontiers.
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After much reading of threads on these forums I've come to the conclusion that Grouping is a dying art. World of Warcraft brought a lot of single player console gamers to the MMORPG genre and things have changed to accomodate them ever since. You just need to look at how MMORPG's are made these days to realize that grouping is no longer a factor, it's all about what you can do alone instead of with groups, following quest lines instead of exploring, becoming self reliant instead of combining the efforts of multiple classes.
MMORPG's are no longer what they were. Originally MMORPG players were in the minority, as people viewed it as a hobby for geeks, and I guess it was. Now, thanks to World of Warcraft, everyone wants to join the party but be able to play the games alone or however they want to play them. Multiplayer no longer means what it says. If I go into a shop and buy a multiplayer game I expect to be fighting or working together with other players, if I pick up a single player game I expect to be playing alone. Now, Multiplayer simply means many players in the same world, they're basically selling a single player game under the guise of multiplayer so they can milk a few more dollars out of the gamers.
It's sad to see the decline of the MMORPG genre, even worse to see how quickly it fell once it was 'infected' by an outside influence. The new line of MMORPG's are games I don't recognize anymore, they started as homage to D&D style games and now are nothing more than fantasy movies where everyone plays the hero.
So this entire thread is now meaningless, as there really is no Group vs Solo anymore, the thread instead should be renamed to Old School vs New School, as group play no longer plays a part in MMORPG's. It's an option, but sadly, one seldom used.
[quote]
Originally posted by UsualSuspect
[b]After much reading of threads on these forums I've come to the conclusion that Grouping is a dying art...b]
MMORPG's are no longer what they were. If I go into a shop and buy a multiplayer game I expect to be fighting or working together with other players, if I pick up a single player game I expect to be playing alone. Now, Multiplayer simply means many players in the same world, they're basically selling a single player game under the guise of multiplayer so they can milk a few more dollars out of the gamers...
It's sad to see the decline of the MMORPG genre, even worse to see how quickly it fell once it was 'infected' by an outside influence. The new line of MMORPG's are games I don't recognize anymore, they started as homage to D&D style games and now are nothing more than fantasy movies where everyone plays the hero.
So this entire thread is now meaningless, as there really is no Group vs Solo anymore, the thread instead should be renamed to Old School vs New School, as group play no longer plays a part in MMORPG's. It's an option, but sadly, one seldom used.
[/quote]
You have some very good points. I have had a great many games over the years and enjoyed a good portion of them. However, today I know of only one game that is stil fun, but, unfortunately, it is dieing, DAoC.
Even now, in the training area people want to group and often one new person will send another a group invite.
After that however, you need to know how to look for people to group with, but, you can still group for hunting and questing. Battle groups are still found for PvP but not nearly as often as in former days.
The easiest place to find groups is still in RvR [PvP] because there are so many people there doing the same thing. Join a battle group and announce in battle group your class lfg and a group that needs you will pick you up. And, a good BG leader will make sure everyone that wants a group gets one.
And, that is after all these years.
I know the UI is old but the graphics are good, not outstanding, but good, and that turns a lot of people off. The game play is great and people are letting the game die because the want a fancy UI... And, Mythic is at fault as well. They do not advertise the game, yet the game and all expansions are free...
Here is a game that is still great, it is free and fewer people are playing it for the wrong reasons.
I just don't get it.
Edit: It looks as though I lost formating, sorry.
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There was more cooperation and long term relationship making in Pre-CU SWG then there is in any WOW clone out there, not because you were forced to; not because there you were entering a Dungeon and you had to have exactly 5 players to complete it.
i've been reading your arguement with llvaldyr up until this point and i'm not taking sides but no where does he come off as a hypocrite he stating his thoughts, he never said we was dening someone of something he just said he wants to solo that game should cater to both. you can either except the fact that the MAJORITY of MMO players have become MMO players because of WoW. There was a flood gate opened of all people who have never played an mmo and played wow and now want to explore other games. the mass popultion are casual players now and no longer basement dwellers. You seem to just a little butt hurt that solo play is the majority.
i'm more of a group guy and don't understand why anyone would play a MMORPG and solo in the game but some people don't have enough time as the group guys. i think you should stop trying to prove your point right and start opening and accepting other peoples thoughts. do you fight like this with everyone who doesn't agree with you?
I think you mgith making a few assumptions there.
First of all, it looks to me like WoW brought in a lot of "non-game" players, not just console gamers.
Or at least people who are not "gamers". Of the people I know who play mmo's, with the exception of people I've met from certain mmo's (so essentially "real life"), all of them play WoW.
They are people who like games but who never really got on the mmo bandwagon until WoW became popular.
And your example of people knowingly buying multi player games but deciding they should be solo is also an assumption.
People are buying these games because they are a kin to being worlds. More than likely they just wanted to see what it was about, found they could have fun and then continued.
These games work on a more broad social level than people might realize.
Look, when I go to the movies I might go with friends but essentialy I'm not talking with those friends and neither am I I talking with the people around me. yet we have a shared experience. because that is one of the main parts about going to the movies, a shared experience.
Same with these games. Having a shared experience, even if you are not in a group, is a very attractive thing.
Godfred's Tomb Trailer: https://youtu.be/-nsXGddj_4w
Original Skyrim: https://www.nexusmods.com/skyrim/mods/109547
Serph toze kindly has started a walk-through. https://youtu.be/UIelCK-lldo
The three people above me have made some great remarks.
I play Guild Wars, not a great deal, but I play when I can. In that game there are at least two instances where a person is forced to play solo, no grouping allowed. And, as to WoW being an MMO, yes a great many people play the game, however, when it comes time to go to an instance or dungeon how many people can get in as a group? Not many, and that makes me wonder why it is labeled an MMO for people that like to group.
For me, probably the greatest asset in any game is a voice program. During heavy combat a voice program can save a group wipe, and, when simply running solo having someone to chat with can make a world of difference, it makes the game social, even if I am solo at the time.
People matter for me and without them games become hollow, with possibly the exception of fast paced PC games such as racing and FPS.
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Soloing doesn't infringe on grouping but getting all the content to be for soloing does.
Next Generation MMOs almost exclusively cater to solo leveling. It makes grouping trivial because the mobs are so pathetic and weak. Some have group content such as dungeons/instances but that brings in a whole range of difficulties of finding a group/members, travel, stupid players etc etc. Grouping should always be more viable then soloing because of this difficulty. In order to make it worth while to do. There are many people like me who will solo in the new MMOs not because we want to but because we have no real choice. We know there will be grouping in late levels so we just do it because we have no other viable option.
Soloers come in and cry that they don't get to play their style because the game is group-centric. Football is group-centric but nobody complains that they can't play football alone. If you goto a football field and started making changes to the field so you could play it solo it's going to interfere with the way the game was meant to be played.
Soloers have it in their head that the soloing playstyle has just as much right to MMOs as grouping does and that is ridiculous because MMOs are made for multiplayer. If it isn't grouping or PVP it really isn't an MMO, call it something else. It's just a bunch of people playing a single play while sharing a chat channel. These are the same duchebags who join guilds just so they can see "Gratz" every time they level or find some gear. But never actually do anything with the guild.
Usual suspects posted about chain quests being a problem and he is 100% right. I'm currently playing EQ2 with my brother who lives in the United States and its nearly impossible for us to be able to group. Soon as one of us plays when the other isn't on we lose sync with quests and suddenly one of us has to wait around while the other one catches up to be on the same quest progression. In the old days on EQ1 we could group up at any time as long as we stayed relatively close to the same level. I had heaps of friends in EQ1 that i met doing pick up groups, I would follow those friends into guilds and on one occasion i gathered em all up and i created my own. In warcraft and EQ2 I hardly ever spoke to people I don't already know and when I do it is usually just to ask or answer a question. I didn't know anyone in WOW until i was maxed level where people actually did groups.
Some people complain about the old style of grinding to be boring. How is questing so much more exciting? They are always the same lame crap. Kill these mobs, click this flashing thing, deliver this to that guy. It's not like there really is a lot of variety in the quests. People just don't really think about it. Grouping, even if camping 1 spot, has way more variety in it because you have to cooperate with other people. The group make up is likely to change over time as people come and go. Humans are dynamic and often unpredictable. Quests are lifeless sterile and predicable. You don't even have to read em just gather em all up and click anything that is glowing/flashing or stands out in some way and kill anything in the area until one of them gives a quest update. All the wile doing the same exact skill rotations.
Does anyone know of any decent MMO that doesn't have chain quests? Besides the old ones like EQ and FFXI. I'm looking for something that has some challenge and isn't nerfed all to hell with too many conveniences. Bascially I want to go back to EQ before Luclin and planes of power came in and pretty much nerfed the game into a casual players amusement park.
Next Generation MMOs almost exclusively cater to solo leveling. It makes grouping trivial because the mobs are so pathetic and weak. Some have group content such as dungeons/instances but that brings in a whole range of difficulties of finding a group/members, travel, stupid players etc etc. Grouping should always be more viable then soloing because of this difficulty. In order to make it worth while to do. There are many people like me who will solo in the new MMOs not because we want to but because we have no real choice. We know there will be grouping in late levels so we just do it because we have no other viable option.
Soloers come in and cry that they don't get to play their style because the game is group-centric. Football is group-centric but nobody complains that they can't play football alone. If you goto a football field and started making changes to the field so you could play it solo it's going to interfere with the way the game was meant to be played.
Soloers have it in their head that the soloing playstyle has just as much right to MMOs as grouping does and that is ridiculous because MMOs are made for multiplayer. If it isn't grouping or PVP it really isn't an MMO, call it something else. It's just a bunch of people playing a single play while sharing a chat channel. These are the same duchebags who join guilds just so they can see "Gratz" every time they level or find some gear. But never actually do anything with the guild.
Usual suspects posted about chain quests being a problem and he is 100% right. I'm currently playing EQ2 with my brother who lives in the United States and its nearly impossible for us to be able to group. Soon as one of us plays when the other isn't on we lose sync with quests and suddenly one of us has to wait around while the other one catches up to be on the same quest progression. In the old days on EQ1 we could group up at any time as long as we stayed relatively close to the same level. I had heaps of friends in EQ1 that i met doing pick up groups, I would follow those friends into guilds and on one occasion i gathered em all up and i created my own. In warcraft and EQ2 I hardly ever spoke to people I don't already know and when I do it is usually just to ask or answer a question. I didn't know anyone in WOW until i was maxed level where people actually did groups.
Some people complain about the old style of grinding to be boring. How is questing so much more exciting? They are always the same lame crap. Kill these mobs, click this flashing thing, deliver this to that guy. It's not like there really is a lot of variety in the quests. People just don't really think about it. Grouping, even if camping 1 spot, has way more variety in it because you have to cooperate with other people. The group make up is likely to change over time as people come and go. Humans are dynamic and often unpredictable. Quests are lifeless sterile and predicable. You don't even have to read em just gather em all up and click anything that is glowing/flashing or stands out in some way and kill anything in the area until one of them gives a quest update. All the wile doing the same exact skill rotations.
Does anyone know of any decent MMO that doesn't have chain quests? Besides the old ones like EQ and FFXI. I'm looking for something that has some challenge and isn't nerfed all to hell with too many conveniences. Bascially I want to go back to EQ before Luclin and planes of power came in and pretty much nerfed the game into a casual players amusement park.
Next Generation MMOs almost exclusively cater to solo leveling. It makes grouping trivial because the mobs are so pathetic and weak. Some have group content such as dungeons/instances but that brings in a whole range of difficulties of finding a group/members, travel, stupid players etc etc. Grouping should always be more viable then soloing because of this difficulty. In order to make it worth while to do. There are many people like me who will solo in the new MMOs not because we want to but because we have no real choice. We know there will be grouping in late levels so we just do it because we have no other viable option.
Soloers come in and cry that they don't get to play their style because the game is group-centric. Football is group-centric but nobody complains that they can't play football alone. If you goto a football field and started making changes to the field so you could play it solo it's going to interfere with the way the game was meant to be played.
Soloers have it in their head that the soloing playstyle has just as much right to MMOs as grouping does and that is ridiculous because MMOs are made for multiplayer. If it isn't grouping or PVP it really isn't an MMO, call it something else. It's just a bunch of people playing a single play while sharing a chat channel. These are the same duchebags who join guilds just so they can see "Gratz" every time they level or find some gear. But never actually do anything with the guild.
Usual suspects posted about chain quests being a problem and he is 100% right. I'm currently playing EQ2 with my brother who lives in the United States and its nearly impossible for us to be able to group. Soon as one of us plays when the other isn't on we lose sync with quests and suddenly one of us has to wait around while the other one catches up to be on the same quest progression. In the old days on EQ1 we could group up at any time as long as we stayed relatively close to the same level. I had heaps of friends in EQ1 that i met doing pick up groups, I would follow those friends into guilds and on one occasion i gathered em all up and i created my own. In warcraft and EQ2 I hardly ever spoke to people I don't already know and when I do it is usually just to ask or answer a question. I didn't know anyone in WOW until i was maxed level where people actually did groups.
Some people complain about the old style of grinding to be boring. How is questing so much more exciting? They are always the same lame crap. Kill these mobs, click this flashing thing, deliver this to that guy. It's not like there really is a lot of variety in the quests. People just don't really think about it. Grouping, even if camping 1 spot, has way more variety in it because you have to cooperate with other people. The group make up is likely to change over time as people come and go. Humans are dynamic and often unpredictable. Quests are lifeless sterile and predicable. You don't even have to read em just gather em all up and click anything that is glowing/flashing or stands out in some way and kill anything in the area until one of them gives a quest update. All the wile doing the same exact skill rotations.
Does anyone know of any decent MMO that doesn't have chain quests? Besides the old ones like EQ and FFXI. I'm looking for something that has some challenge and isn't nerfed all to hell with too many conveniences. Bascially I want to go back to EQ before Luclin and planes of power came in and pretty much nerfed the game into a casual players amusement park.
Someone please make an MMO that isn't trivial rubbish. I'm sick of the new MMOs made for 10 year olds
You can play the same single player game and have a shared experience. Do you have to be logged into a server and pay $15 a month for it to be a shared experience? The problem many of us have with the soloing isn't what people do it's how the content gets destroyed for the soloist's pleasure. The soloists came into our play ground and break the Teeter-totter in half so they could sit on the broken peace of wood alone and dribble on their shirt. And we are standing there like hey WTF? They are paying their entry fee too so they have the right to wreck the place to make it fit their play style.
Someone please make an MMO that isn't trivial rubbish. I'm sick of the new MMOs made for 10 year olds
All of these comments make playing Dark Age of Camelot even more viable. If you want to solo it does not cause problems for groups. For those that group, it does not cause problems for those that solo.
DAoC has to be one of the most perfect games ever created. It has an old UI and that turns off some people, and the UI is not that combersome, and macros can be made, though they are not as robust as newer games, however the graphics are fine.
Game play in DAoC still rocks. Too bad Mythic or EA do not care about this fine game, leaving it on the vine to slowly die. Although there are still thousands of people that still cling to it.
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Don't forget, DAoC was the first MMO to let you fully customize the UI, not WoW. If you don't like the UI? Change it. And yes, the game was balanced nearly perfectly, too bad Mythic kind of ruined it. Ironically enough, one of the things that killed DAoC was lack of groups for new players trying to learn the game (this was due to /level 20). Once soloing became the easiest way to level, the game died.
No im sorry to say this but your wrong WoW is the best example of Middle Ground Game Play. Currently there are 2 different ways to get to 80. THere is the Solo Grind thru Quests from 1-80 and there is the Random Group Finder from 15-80. Then there is the hardmodes at 70 and 80, raids with 10 man and 25 man with the level 80 raids having hard modes on both 10 man and 25 man. No where does it state that you HAVE to do dungeons or grind solo you can do either solo or group or even both.
"Possibly we humans can exist without actually having to fight. But many of us have chosen to fight. For what reason? To protect something? Protect what? Ourselves? The future? If we kill people to protect ourselves and this future, then what sort of future is it, and what will we have become? There is no future for those who have died. And what of those who did the killing? Is happiness to be found in a future that is grasped with blood stained hands? Is that the truth?"
Mythic addressed this, last year I believe. There is an area just for new players that introduce the game where grouping is common, and /level 20 is no longer in the game.
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It is rather simple use of the english language and i don't pretend to be an expert on the subject either.When yo uuse the word MASSIVELY online ,it is pretty darn easy to see that is it miles away from being in the same definition as solo.
It is like saying i want to play on a football team ALONE,is it not exactly the same?Well actually it is not quite the same becuase a football team is not massive,so lets say i want to be in the Boston MArathon but i want to be in it alone,,umm doesn't make much sense does it?Well this is what the solo people want us to believe that it does make sense.
What baffles me is people can ask for a solo game,i have absolutely no problem with that at all.However they are in some insane way asking for a multiplayer game to be a solo game as well,heck they can't see past themselves to realize the RPG genre can survive and SHOULD survive with BOTH types of design,NOT every game needs to cater to those selfish people.
Never forget 3 mile Island and never trust a government official or company spokesman.
I like to see some MMOs that force people to play in groups. Let's say League of Legends model but for MMORPG. You can't play unless you join a group.
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Then you guaranteed a tiny MMO, if it can survive at all. Most people will not play such a game.
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I like occasional solo play, but I also like group play. However, finding a group of people that are 1. competent, or 2. friendly can be an issue at times.
Personally, I like being able to take time out and do some solo work myself, but I also enjoy a strong focus in group play. Recently I began playing WoW and Aion again. These two games, while similar, left me feeling somewhat different. This is my opinion and impression from playing the two. In WoW, I felt that every second in game that I wasnt doing something, was wasted. I should be farming mats, crafting stuff, putting items on the AH, looking for a group, looking for a raid, doing stuff. I would feel compelled to do something with my gametime, after dailies, and random dungeon, I felt that my time was being wasted unless I was doing something productive. However, I didnt feel like doing anything, I didnt want to farm for an hour, or hunt for a raid that wasnt comprised of barely competent people. While I felt like I had to do something, I was bored with the content and didnt want to do anything. When I resubbed to Aion, while I did feel like my time in game required attention, I could easily find something to do to fill that time that did not bore me. (Apples to oranges I know) I liked that gathering allowed me harvest items for every profession and possibly turn a profit for myself, or supply an army of alts with materials/items they need. I could sit and do craft queues (Yeah, im special in that, im highly damaged and enjoy them. Or rather, the fact that I get exp (on alts) and recipes from repeating the monotonous queues while I wait for some friends to log in) Finding a dungeon wasnt much of an issue, as I mostly had a semi static group, perhaps that part cant really compare. But in the dungeons, CC was required, not the retardation of AoEverything that WoW has become. Apples and oranges, unfair comparison. /shrug
I like group play, but I like group play that punishes failure, and promotes smart play. I dont like how WoW appears to have fostered a generation of MMO laziness, where MOAR DEEPS can solve every problem. Situational awareness, educated and wise decisions, attack sequences, crowd control. Smart gaming, smart choices, you get rewarded, poor gaming, poor choices, you are punished. I dont know if there is a game like that for me these days of Casual kiddie gamers who want instant action, NOW NOW NOW becasue the red cordial is about to run out. At least in solo play, you dont have to rely on others being competent. However im not sure that having a punishing group play to promote better players would work, perhaps promoting better group play? (Like Dark Poeta with its grading on time and points which decides loot perhaps?) Then again, a Darwinian method of dungeoning may provide more capable players than a carrot on a stick approach, perhaps if you die in a dungeon through no fault but your own, the game will uninstall itself.
Edit. Terrible spelling, more than likely missed plenty.
I like games that don't force-group. Games with both solo and group elements are fine. Soloists don't bother me. What I do find are the "why play mmo if you don't group" people so fucking annoying. What a bunch of idiots. Ingame, outside of game. Fucking retards.
You must take into account the fact that grouping takes time while soloing can be gotten into straight away. A lot of the newer MMORPG players play on a casual schedule and in order to get anything done during their short playtimes, they tend to lean more towards the 'achivement' side of things.
Grouping becomes less feasible when they can just log on, solo a few quests/etc and log off. They'd feel like they accomplished something for the day even if it's all done solo. Grouping takes time, time which they do not have.
The achivement system in certain MMOs make this even worse because most of them can be done solo. It's even easier to achieve something in that short playtime of 1-2 hours with such a system because all these achivements are recorded and tallied up in the form of points; so there's a sense of continuity.
Group play will continue to see a decline simply due to the playstyle of the average MMO consumer nowadays. Games will become more solo -centric in order to cater to such gamers. Take the recently released FF14 for example. All through the development process, it's been said that it will reduce focus on group play (FF11) and introduce more solo opportunities. Their leve system was designed ground up with the solo player in mind.
Sadly, it's all about catering to the lowest common denominator.
I agree, grouping for it's own sake should not be encouraged; i know it's a losing battle.
In many of the newer MMOs, grouping at the endgame is superficial; a necessary thing to do in order to get what you want. Take WoW for example. Grouping is now so simple and you even get ported right into the instance without having to leave the town. Grouping for it's own sake; once you complete the dungeon, the group is dropped and you dont have to bother about it anymore. Cross server grouping eliminates party etiquette and reduces responsibility. Grouping is still there but it's often forced and empty.
I think the question to ask now is whether grouping nowadays can be compared to what it once was.