If there is a lame character leveling system like WoW or SWToR or any other same type(kill this get xp, do this get xp type) leveling then allow solo leveling. but epic quests, dungeon, raids and epic content must always be group based. not only that i think that mob in epic quest chain or dungeon or raid should scale up to player level so that no one will ever try to solo them.
Boobs are LIFE, Boobs are LOVE, Boobs are JUSTICE, Boobs are mankind's HOPES and DREAMS. People who complain about boobs have lost their humanity.
Groups care about the others? What a load of horseshit. Players have changed over the years. How many groups have *you* been in lately where someone, ANYONE says a word to another? Make that a "kind" word. Groups are all about loot and XP these days. How many groups have you been in where a loot roll went smoothly? How many groups have stuck together for more than 1 run? I would bet the numbers, lately, are small for both. I could be mistaken in your case, but for me, less than 2.
Solo = selfish... wow. simply wow...
You said it yourself, "These days.". And what do we have in the MMO genre 'these days'? It's 99% single player games online. So when people have to come together to create a group, such as a mid-level dungeon or a particularly hard quest, what do we get? Selfish attitudes.
Maybe we solo gamers are selfish in our leisure pursuits. Frankly I can live with that. But at least we aren't selfishly trying to force social gamers to solo so that we'll have 'friends' to play with. Talk about the ultimate in selfishness!
You do realise that people who join a multiplayer game are actually looking for multiplayer gameplay, right? People don't buy single player games and expect to have a 12v12 PvP minigame in there, so why should it be any different when it comes to MMO's? Why do MMO's have to cater to solo players? Why do you consider it forcing you to play 'our way' when it's the way you chose when you bought the game? It clearly says Multiplayer on the title.
It's like all these solo players who get to end game, solo of course, then start crying because they can't get everything else solo, can't solo the bosses, can't get the best gear solo, etc. You do realise it said multiplayer on the box, right?
It's that whole selfish attitude, the feeling of entitlement because they paid their money so they should be able to have access to everything. Yeah, I paid my money for a banana, should I be crying because it's not an orange?
I dont really care what other people do, I do however care about the game design of games that I intend to play. Multiplayer games should have multiplayer gameplay as its main focus, its simple logic and if you cant see that then I just dont know what to tell you. Some people want to play these games as single player games, but as I said earlier, what they need is not a mmo but either a new genre just for them or just simply play single player games.
The market determines how any genre will develop and, whether you like it or not, your side lost. The MMO genre as it existed a decade ago is largely extinct because the majority of people playing didn't like it. Now, you have people standing in the wilderness that everyone who doesn't like old school gameplay should get off their lawn and go play something else, but they're already playing what they want to play, maybe it's the old school people who ought to take a hike. You don't own the genre, the genre has already rejected your style of gameplay. It's like someone who likes crank-starting old Model-T's screaming that anyone who uses one of those newfangled electronic starters should go somewhere else. Your time is gone. Deal with it.
When you say the market I suppose you are thinking about WoW since that game has basically set the market. Even WoW do not offer solo content to the extent that some soloers want it. Blizzard has even added world bosses and harder content that encourages grouping outside instances in the latest expansion and patch so I dont really see how my side "lost". As a further note, there is extremely little whining for more solo content on the wow forums, and quite a bit of whining about how the game is too casual and solo friendly.
Im not advocating a system where people must be grouped to do anything btw, what I am against is wasting budget resources on people who wants to do nothing else than to solo. MMO developers should always strive to create games that offers encouraging multiplayer gameplay so people want to play with others, if that is dynamic world bosses that dont require "grouping up" but still requires lots of players or simply PvP does not really matter. They should never try to create a seperate singleplayer game inside a MMO because a few people are disgruntled that their single player game of choice does not offer regular content updates.
Originally posted by CorvusCorax What exactly is your point here?. Yes soloing has nothing to do with multiplayer gameplay. The very definition of solo should be enough explanation to remove any doubt of the question.
Your "opinion" that soloers are not MMO-players, or should NOT be in the MMO space.
When I solo, I "find adventure", be it on my own or helping others. When I group, there is ONE target in view, the group's objective whatever that may be. No little side adventures or surprise encounter off a beaten path.
Nowhere in the acronym MMO (or MMORPG) is the word "group" stated or implied. It is many players playing the same game. And I refute that opinion.
I play with other players without being in a group. Can you? Am I "selfish" because of this? I guess, because I am not playing to *your* satisfaction.
Now, if perchance, you are talking about ONLY end of game raids/boss fights, I have no qualms with your opinion. It is mine, too, the way games are set up these days with only ONE way to defeat the raid/boss - kill it.
Why can't a thief sneak and pickpocket a boss for its loot? Why can't a bard sweet talk a boss out its loot? Why can't a mage put a boss to sleep and steal its loot?
Because then no one would play a fighter. Their only recourse is to fight. And the other 3 ways take combat out of the overly combat oriented games we have now.
Seriously I have never said that you must be grouped. There are more ways to have multiplayer gameplay outside of groups. I also dont understand how you can solo and at the same time be interacting with others in your vicinity but not do it while in a group?. I am guessing you are talking about instances for groups? but you can have group content outside in the open world aswell there is nothing stopping that. It can never be as complex or fine tuned as instanced group content but group quests outside of instances is never a bad thing, unless there are just a handful of them.
Soloing is just one player and one or more mobs and nothing else, maybe another player pass you by if you are out in the open world but thats it. I dont have a problem with that, the thing that I have a problem with this is not the act of soloing itself since I do it a lot myself, but when people demand that the entire game should be available and rebalanced in a seperate instance for singleplayer just for them. Would it not be better if those people would gather up and make a joint effort on the forums of some cool singleplayer rpg and discuss there on how regular content updates could be made?
I'm going to chime in one more time to give an example for the people that think solo play is selfish, unfriendly, un-MMO, or any other negative that you prefer.
When EQ came out my Dwarf Cleric would go to the Gnome starting area and defend them from a higher level Barbarian Shaman that would come harass them and gank them as they were banking. I was solo, no guild or group or anybody asked me to come spend days there helping them. I just did it because it is what I wanted to do. Help others. Role-play.
Now you explain to me how that was selfish solo play, or how it was hurting group play, or how it was negative in any way. The answer is. I was playing solo, AND helping out the world I was playing in. So please don't put all solo players in a little category. Some players are selfish and some are not. Being in a group has absolutely nothing to do with it. Have you really never seen a greedy person on a group?
I just think there is room for all play styles now-days.
I'm going to chime in one more time to give an example for the people that think solo play is selfish, unfriendly, un-MMO, or any other negative that you prefer.
When EQ came out my Dwarf Cleric would go to the Gnome starting area and defend them from a higher level Barbarian Shaman that would come harass them and gank them as they were banking. I was solo, no guild or group or anybody asked me to come spend days there helping them. I just did it because it is what I wanted to do. Help others. Role-play.
Now you explain to me how that was selfish solo play, or how it was hurting group play, or how it was negative in any way. The answer is. I was playing solo, AND helping out the world I was playing in. So please don't put all solo players in a little category. Some players are selfish and some are not. Being in a group has absolutely nothing to do with it.
Dont think anyone here who is "pro-group" would think of this as anything negative, simply because other players were required for you to even do this, if there was no lowbies there, the shaman would most likely never been there and if there was no shaman you would not travel there to fight him. It was multiplayer gameplay.
1. Grouping is easier than soloing: No it isn't. When you solo and screw up no one is going to save your butt. Now it can be less time intensive if you don't screw up or if there is no time lost when you die. But devs could simply calculate wait time for group formation and give more xp and drops based solely on that instead of locking solo players out of the best gear. And there is always the hated dungeon finder. They don't lock us out of that gear because soloing is easy, they do it to force us to group up and therefore be content for other players. Especially with the advent of content scaling it is incorrect to assume providing solo content means either that everyone will solo everything or that all content will be too easy for groups.
2. MMOs are primarily for social gamers: Sometimes I do like to group, just not often, also I sometimes enjoy socializing in chat, which is why I prefer MMOs to RPGs. In a game that doesn't make me feel like a second class citizen because I solo I am likely to spend money regularly, even if the amounts aren't large. Social gamers should welcome all the financial support their favorite games can get, especially in the current saturated market.
3. Everyone will do their own thing if they can get everything they want by soloing: So what? Why would anyone want me to group with them against my will? I promise you, I am not a pleasant person to deal with when forced into something but I am extremely nice and helpful otherwise. Also quite chatty when in the mood, I'm not one of those speed clear let's just do this people, I will at least say hi and if a non-troll wants to chit chat while doing something I will. But not if I feel like I have to group in order to get something I want. I'm a sullen biatch when that happens. Or I used to be, now I just quit the MMO altogether. Social gamers will group regardless of whether they have to or not, it's best to leave the rest of us alone until we feel like grouping of our own free will.
I am convinced there is only one way to eliminate these grave evils, namely through the establishment of a socialist economy, accompanied by an educational system which would be oriented toward social goals.
1. Grouping is easier than soloing: No it isn't. When you solo and screw up no one is going to save your butt. Now it can be less time intensive if you don't screw up or if there is no time lost when you die. But devs could simply calculate wait time for group formation and give more xp and drops based solely on that instead of locking solo players out of the best gear. And there is always the hated dungeon finder. They don't lock us out of that gear because soloing is easy, they do it to force us to group up and therefore be content for other players. Especially with the advent of content scaling it is incorrect to assume providing solo content means either that everyone will solo everything or that all content will be too easy for groups.
It really depends on game design, soloing is considered easy because most solo content is easy, ofcourse there can be difficult solo content if properly designed but it would have to be fine tuned for every class and in some cases every spec (for example a dps class with different dps specs) something that takes a lot of resources from a budget that is finite which means that something else has to be skipped in favor for adding this solo content.
Also group content does not neccessarily mean that someone can save you if you make a mistake, it can be tuned so every mistake is irredeemable. I also think you are pretty confused about dungeon finders, they were made to make it easier for people who enjoy group content to find members for their groups and not to force soloers into groups.
2. MMOs are primarily for social gamers: Sometimes I do like to group, just not often, also I sometimes enjoy socializing in chat, which is why I prefer MMOs to RPGs. In a game that doesn't make me feel like a second class citizen because I solo I am likely to spend money regularly, even if the amounts aren't large. Social gamers should welcome all the financial support their favorite games can get, especially in the current saturated market.
If the extreme-solo crowd is big enough to bring enough money for their own solo content then Im certain that a game of their own in a seperate genre or the very a least sub-category of MMO's will be released soon enough. Those of us who like multiplayer gameplay however wants the games we play to offer more and new innovative multiplayer gameplay rather than offer us something we can find in pretty much any singleplayer rpg.
3. Everyone will do their own thing if they can get everything they want by soloing: So what? Why would anyone want me to group with them against my will? I promise you, I am not a pleasant person to deal with when forced into something but I am extremely nice and helpful otherwise. Also quite chatty when in the mood, I'm not one of those speed clear let's just do this people, I will at least say hi and if a non-troll wants to chit chat while doing something I will. But not if I feel like I have to group in order to get something I want. I'm a sullen biatch when that happens. Or I used to be, now I just quit the MMO altogether. Social gamers will group regardless of whether they have to or not, it's best to leave the rest of us alone until we feel like grouping of our own free will.
No one wants to force you into their own group, peoples first choice for group members are like minded individuals. People who enjoy multiplayer games play them for multiplayer gameplay. You are not being forced into any groups or the such, it is simply the type of gameplay you should expect from a multiplayer game. There can be other forms of multiplayer gameplay that does not require you to group up but expecting to play an entire multiplayer game without other players is just folly.
Also group content does not neccessarily mean that someone can save you if you make a mistake, it can be tuned so every mistake is irredeemable. I also think you are pretty confused about dungeon finders, they were made to make it easier for people who enjoy group content to find members for their groups and not to force soloers into groups.
Well to be fair I have seen some raid walk through videos that did look pretty damn complex to me directly because of the timing and cooperation involved but there is still no reason to forbid non-raiders the same gear if that gear can be used in things like pvp or lower dungeons. It just creates a tiered haves and have nots situation that needlessly frustrates players. As for the dungeon finder, I actually like them, I meant they can be used to shorten wait times for dungeons and their convenience can encourage players with less time to group up for some content because they do shorten the wait.
If the extreme-solo crowd is big enough to bring enough money for their own solo content then Im certain that a game of their own in a seperate genre or the very a least sub-category of MMO's will be released soon enough. Those of us who like multiplayer gameplay however wants the games we play to offer more and new innovative multiplayer gameplay rather than offer us something we can find in pretty much any singleplayer rpg.
Actually wouldn't it be better for everyone if high quality MMOs catered to both as much as possible? We're spread out enough as it is. However I wouldn't begrudge social-only players an MMO, I just hate that I have yet to find one ever that doesn't treat solo players as second class citizens, doing a thousand little things to 'encourage' grouping by gimping our experience, or I should say by gimping us.
No one wants to force you into their own group, peoples first choice for group members are like minded individuals. People who enjoy multiplayer games play them for multiplayer gameplay. You are not being forced into any groups or the such, it is simply the type of gameplay you should expect from a multiplayer game. There can be other forms of multiplayer gameplay that does not require you to group up but expecting to play an entire multiplayer game without other players is just folly.
Actually I read a thread this morning where someone flat out said he/she wanted forced grouping. Again, fine by me if such MMOs exist, but as I said, in a thousand little ways devs try to force grouping by gimping those who refuse to. And I'll never understand why any MMO launches without a good dungeon finder now. Standing around spamming a chat or having to use an out of game resource to group is ridiculous.
I am convinced there is only one way to eliminate these grave evils, namely through the establishment of a socialist economy, accompanied by an educational system which would be oriented toward social goals.
Well where do I fit in?? I play games as a form of escapism just a challenging way to pass time. I don't want to play a game where I have to group to play. I enjoy grouping as an option when I play, but to have to group to play a game would put me off. I have met people I like to play with, and people I do not.
Sorry to use wow as an example. The most fun I ever had raiding was with a pug in wotlk, I believe it was the sindragosa fight. I was a paladin lvl 80, my 5th reroll if memory serves. I had only been 80 for a week and grinded out an impressive gear score, albeit a bit low for that fight.(I know there is a gasp in the audience, should've took you 6 months to get that gear.) it took us 9 or so wipes but we got it, cheers in vent, pats on the back it was great. The only guild I was ever in that came close to this was the one in swtor, and I had a lot of fun in that guild. And I was in so many different guilds, so many different games. But finding a good group of people to play and socialize with, while having fun, is a hard feat in any game.
What I am trying to say here is there is no winner in this vrs thread to deny one is to deny the other so to speak.
Originally posted by CorvusCorax I also dont understand how you can solo and at the same time be interacting with others in your vicinity but not do it while in a group?. I am guessing you are talking about instances for groups? but you can have group content outside in the open world aswell there is nothing stopping that. It can never be as complex or fine tuned as instanced group content but group quests outside of instances is never a bad thing, unless there are just a handful of them.
Instances, yes, but overall, my grouping in recent MMOs has been teleport to location, do content, teleport back to the questgiver, or whatever. Any deviation and the group gets upset. Almost anything that slows down progression (which is the number one reason for grouping these days) is shunned in today's MMOs by today's players. Your experiences may differ than mine, though.
Ever try to farm a craft node while in a group? Ever stop to help out another player not in your group? Ever stop in your tracks to answer a question in chat while your group travels from place to place?
Can the above be done? Of course they can! They often were in older MMOs. Today if you do these kind of things, you may get promptly kicked, unless you know the other players previously. How many groups have you been in lately where a player seems to go "/afk" a bit more than tolerated by the group and talk of booting them comes up? Unless they are a tank or healer, I bet it happens more often than not.
Originally posted by CorvusCorax Soloing is just one player and one or more mobs and nothing else, maybe another player pass you by if you are out in the open world but thats it. I dont have a problem with that, the thing that I have a problem with this is not the act of soloing itself since I do it a lot myself, but when people demand that the entire game should be available and rebalanced in a seperate instance for singleplayer just for them. Would it not be better if those people would gather up and make a joint effort on the forums of some cool singleplayer rpg and discuss there on how regular content updates could be made?
This I agree with you 100%. There is no way in hell that my singular character should be able to do what it takes other players (multiples) to accomplish... Combat-wise. Unfortunately, I have yet to meet an MMO where combat was not the ONLY solution to get past content.
As to why *this* solo centric player plays MMOs? Other people. No matter how often I play any single player game, it is the same, every single time I play. The NPCs say the same exact thing, the quests are always the same, and the game world is truly stagnant. MMOs offer a gameplay experience where every time I log on, I don't know what's going to happen. I may (or may not) meet other people. I may (or may not) interact with another human being, not another AI. Things unknown may (or may not) happen because other human beings are present to add chaos to the game.
What MMOs offer that SP Games lack is spontaneous adventure. You just cannot program that into game terms. I have never stopped whatever I was doing in a SP game to help another player, giving me an unexpected adventure in the process.
I hope that helps explain my viewpoint a little bit
- Al
Personally the only modern MMORPG trend that annoys me is the idea that MMOs need to be designed in a way to attract people who don't actually like MMOs. Which to me makes about as much sense as someone trying to figure out a way to get vegetarians to eat at their steakhouse. - FARGIN_WAR
Originally posted by Studdley I'm going to chime in one more time to give an example for the people that think solo play is selfish, unfriendly, un-MMO, or any other negative that you prefer.When EQ came out my Dwarf Cleric would go to the Gnome starting area and defend them from a higher level Barbarian Shaman that would come harass them and gank them as they were banking. I was solo, no guild or group or anybody asked me to come spend days there helping them. I just did it because it is what I wanted to do. Help others. Role-play.Now you explain to me how that was selfish solo play, or how it was hurting group play, or how it was negative in any way. The answer is. I was playing solo, AND helping out the world I was playing in. So please don't put all solo players in a little category. Some players are selfish and some are not. Being in a group has absolutely nothing to do with it.
Dont think anyone here who is "pro-group" would think of this as anything negative, simply because other players were required for you to even do this, if there was no lowbies there, the shaman would most likely never been there and if there was no shaman you would not travel there to fight him. It was multiplayer gameplay.
No one saying "I like to solo" is saying they spurn ALL human interaction. Do you believe that grouping is the ONLY way to interact with another human in MMOs? If not, why must players be forced to group? Studdley's example is a GREAT example of helping other players (thus he is playing an MMO) while NOT in a group. His point went totally over your head.
My own example would be playing a tank in City of Heroes. I was running through Atlas Park one time and saw a player in trouble. I jumped in the middle of the fight and started taunting. At first the player was upset because he thought I was kill-stealing. I had to tell him to keep fighting, that I was only taunting to get their attacks on me, instead of him. When all was said and done, he got ALL the XP from the Mobs while their attacks were focused on my character. If I were in a group, the others would have immediately attacked and stolen all his XP.
Grouping is only required for some combat situations. You don't need to group to: 1) Craft 2) Explore 3) Chat 4) Help other players
True, most MMOs are 80% or more about combat, but today's MMOs have easily solo-able combat for the most part.
I am sorry this is not your preferred playstyle and I DO wish that there was a good (for you) grouping centric MMO for you and other like minded players to enjoy. I truly believe that with over 500 MMOs on the market today, there is room for a few MMOs to exist for every playstyle. Instead, we have over 400 games for ONE playstyle (try to please everyone) and maybe less than 50 for all other niches combined.
The ONE thing I do like about today's MMOs is that I can play them solo, to a point.
- Al
Personally the only modern MMORPG trend that annoys me is the idea that MMOs need to be designed in a way to attract people who don't actually like MMOs. Which to me makes about as much sense as someone trying to figure out a way to get vegetarians to eat at their steakhouse. - FARGIN_WAR
Originally posted by Studdley I'm going to chime in one more time to give an example for the people that think solo play is selfish, unfriendly, un-MMO, or any other negative that you prefer.
When EQ came out my Dwarf Cleric would go to the Gnome starting area and defend them from a higher level Barbarian Shaman that would come harass them and gank them as they were banking. I was solo, no guild or group or anybody asked me to come spend days there helping them. I just did it because it is what I wanted to do. Help others. Role-play.
Now you explain to me how that was selfish solo play, or how it was hurting group play, or how it was negative in any way. The answer is. I was playing solo, AND helping out the world I was playing in. So please don't put all solo players in a little category. Some players are selfish and some are not. Being in a group has absolutely nothing to do with it.
Dont think anyone here who is "pro-group" would think of this as anything negative, simply because other players were required for you to even do this, if there was no lowbies there, the shaman would most likely never been there and if there was no shaman you would not travel there to fight him. It was multiplayer gameplay.
No one saying "I like to solo" is saying they spurn ALL human interaction. Do you believe that grouping is the ONLY way to interact with another human in MMOs? If not, why must players be forced to group? Studdley's example is a GREAT example of helping other players (thus he is playing an MMO) while NOT in a group. His point went totally over your head.
My own example would be playing a tank in City of Heroes. I was running through Atlas Park one time and saw a player in trouble. I jumped in the middle of the fight and started taunting. At first the player was upset because he thought I was kill-stealing. I had to tell him to keep fighting, that I was only taunting to get their attacks on me, instead of him. When all was said and done, he got ALL the XP from the Mobs while their attacks were focused on my character. If I were in a group, the others would have immediately attacked and stolen all his XP.
Grouping is only required for some combat situations. You don't need to group to: 1) Craft 2) Explore 3) Chat 4) Help other players
True, most MMOs are 80% or more about combat, but today's MMOs have easily solo-able combat for the most part.
I am sorry this is not your preferred playstyle and I DO wish that there was a good (for you) grouping centric MMO for you and other like minded players to enjoy. I truly believe that with over 500 MMOs on the market today, there is room for a few MMOs to exist for every playstyle. Instead, we have over 400 games for ONE playstyle (try to please everyone) and maybe less than 50 for all other niches combined.
The ONE thing I do like about today's MMOs is that I can play them solo, to a point.
His point did not go over my head, if you read again you will see that I said it was multiplayer and as such its all fine an dandy in my book, there is nothing bad about it. I do all those things you mention aswell when playing MMO's. I dont mind soloers or soloing at all untill some of them wants to reap everything a MMO can offer through multiplayer gameplay but without the multiplayer gameplay part, which effectively means its the same as a singleplayer game. There is no need for actual grouping to have multiplayer gameplay, it only helps making it more organized but its in no way a requirement.
Also about your CoH example, wether the group would just kill steal or not is entirely decided on what kind of individuals are in said group, just because it is a group does not instantly make it a group of assholes.
I dont really care what other people do, I do however care about the game design of games that I intend to play. Multiplayer games should have multiplayer gameplay as its main focus, its simple logic and if you cant see that then I just dont know what to tell you. Some people want to play these games as single player games, but as I said earlier, what they need is not a mmo but either a new genre just for them or just simply play single player games.
The market determines how any genre will develop and, whether you like it or not, your side lost. The MMO genre as it existed a decade ago is largely extinct because the majority of people playing didn't like it. Now, you have people standing in the wilderness that everyone who doesn't like old school gameplay should get off their lawn and go play something else, but they're already playing what they want to play, maybe it's the old school people who ought to take a hike. You don't own the genre, the genre has already rejected your style of gameplay. It's like someone who likes crank-starting old Model-T's screaming that anyone who uses one of those newfangled electronic starters should go somewhere else. Your time is gone. Deal with it.
When you say the market I suppose you are thinking about WoW since that game has basically set the market. Even WoW do not offer solo content to the extent that some soloers want it. Blizzard has even added world bosses and harder content that encourages grouping outside instances in the latest expansion and patch so I dont really see how my side "lost". As a further note, there is extremely little whining for more solo content on the wow forums, and quite a bit of whining about how the game is too casual and solo friendly.
Im not advocating a system where people must be grouped to do anything btw, what I am against is wasting budget resources on people who wants to do nothing else than to solo. MMO developers should always strive to create games that offers encouraging multiplayer gameplay so people want to play with others, if that is dynamic world bosses that dont require "grouping up" but still requires lots of players or simply PvP does not really matter. They should never try to create a seperate singleplayer game inside a MMO because a few people are disgruntled that their single player game of choice does not offer regular content updates.
It's not a few people, it's the majority of people who play MMOs, that's what you don't understand. This isn't a small percentage of the MMO-playing population. MMOs, like all video games, exist to make money and market research, whether you like it or not, shows that the majority of people want solo-friendly games. What you keep advocating is that developers shoot themselves in the foot financially.
I dont really care what other people do, I do however care about the game design of games that I intend to play. Multiplayer games should have multiplayer gameplay as its main focus, its simple logic and if you cant see that then I just dont know what to tell you. Some people want to play these games as single player games, but as I said earlier, what they need is not a mmo but either a new genre just for them or just simply play single player games.
The market determines how any genre will develop and, whether you like it or not, your side lost. The MMO genre as it existed a decade ago is largely extinct because the majority of people playing didn't like it. Now, you have people standing in the wilderness that everyone who doesn't like old school gameplay should get off their lawn and go play something else, but they're already playing what they want to play, maybe it's the old school people who ought to take a hike. You don't own the genre, the genre has already rejected your style of gameplay. It's like someone who likes crank-starting old Model-T's screaming that anyone who uses one of those newfangled electronic starters should go somewhere else. Your time is gone. Deal with it.
When you say the market I suppose you are thinking about WoW since that game has basically set the market. Even WoW do not offer solo content to the extent that some soloers want it. Blizzard has even added world bosses and harder content that encourages grouping outside instances in the latest expansion and patch so I dont really see how my side "lost". As a further note, there is extremely little whining for more solo content on the wow forums, and quite a bit of whining about how the game is too casual and solo friendly.
Im not advocating a system where people must be grouped to do anything btw, what I am against is wasting budget resources on people who wants to do nothing else than to solo. MMO developers should always strive to create games that offers encouraging multiplayer gameplay so people want to play with others, if that is dynamic world bosses that dont require "grouping up" but still requires lots of players or simply PvP does not really matter. They should never try to create a seperate singleplayer game inside a MMO because a few people are disgruntled that their single player game of choice does not offer regular content updates.
It's not a few people, it's the majority of people who play MMOs, that's what you don't understand. This isn't a small percentage of the MMO-playing population. MMOs, like all video games, exist to make money and market research, whether you like it or not, shows that the majority of people want solo-friendly games. What you keep advocating is that developers shoot themselves in the foot financially.
That's just not going to happen.
Some soloers want to be able to do anything and get everything entirely solo in a MMO and thats very different from just being solo friendly. Those extreme soloers are not the majority.
One of the things that many people, including many developers, seem to miss is that people want DIFFERENT games that provide DIFFERENT experiences. People not only have different tastes but different moods of what they find fun at a particular moment.
One of those axis of differentiation is the solo/group axis. It's perfectly fine for some, many or even a majority of games to be solo friendly but for all games to do so, someones missing out on an important point of differentiation in thier product and missing out on a market niche that's underserved.
While the arguement has been put forward that a game can do both really well...in practice (as someone who really like cooperative/group play) I haven't seen it. Lets be realistic for a moment, ANY game is going to have a finite amount of resources availble....spreading those resources out over too many design initiatives means doing all or some of them not very well. It's why focus or scope are important for any project. That's aside from both core ruleset considerations that are contradictory in nature to serve those competing objectives.....and aside from the atmosphere created among the user community of the game.
Lets use a resteraunt analogy. Fast Food may be by far the largest demographic for dining in the U.S. but there IS also a market for Fine Dining and there are establishments that do quite well serving that market segment. Not only are there some people who simply prefer Fine Dining to Fast Food some people enjoy BOTH depending upon thier mood. However resteraunt owners understand well that trying encorporate both within a single establishment usualy doesn't end well. A single establishment needs to have a focus and atmosphere that fits with the experience it is trying to deliver.
Some soloers want to be able to do anything and get everything entirely solo in a MMO and thats very different from just being solo friendly. Those extreme soloers are not the majority.
I'm sure they make up a much larger percentage of the total population than the forced groupers who want everyone to be required to group to accomplish anything.
You soloers are using the same old arguments that have failed everytime, but you stubbornly cling to them.
Multiplayer MMOs have multiplayers mechanics, like class balance, economy, loot and a bunch more. The more solo friendly the game is, the more is messes with those mechanics. This is fact.
Many game devs have tried to merge the 2, like WoW, but they have never really pulled it off, somebody always loses.
You soloers cannot deny this, you try and claim your solo adventures affect nobody, but they do, they affect the entire game mechanics. You simply refuse to see it.
But, the developers have heard us. You soloers had your day in the sun, but its over now, because many of the MMOs coming out next are VERY group friendly. There has been a push for large scale battles as well, trying to get as many players into one space as possible.
Some soloers want to be able to do anything and get everything entirely solo in a MMO and thats very different from just being solo friendly. Those extreme soloers are not the majority.
I'm sure they make up a much larger percentage of the total population than the forced groupers who want everyone to be required to group to accomplish anything.
In a multiplayer game, yes I think its ok to expect that....lol
And please don't try and convince me that multiplayer doesn't mean grouping, because that's how the "Holy Trinity" was developed. It has been around since the first MMOs.
That pretty much proves multiplayer was intended for group content.
Some soloers want to be able to do anything and get everything entirely solo in a MMO and thats very different from just being solo friendly. Those extreme soloers are not the majority.
I'm sure they make up a much larger percentage of the total population than the forced groupers who want everyone to be required to group to accomplish anything.
In a multiplayer game, yes I think its ok to expect that....lol
And please don't try and convince me that multiplayer doesn't mean grouping, because that's how the "Holy Trinity" was developed. It has been around since the first MMOs.
That pretty much proves multiplayer was intended for group content.
It doesn't. I've played multiplayer games where I haven't been grouped with people.
Some soloers want to be able to do anything and get everything entirely solo in a MMO and thats very different from just being solo friendly. Those extreme soloers are not the majority.
I'm sure they make up a much larger percentage of the total population than the forced groupers who want everyone to be required to group to accomplish anything.
In a multiplayer game, yes I think its ok to expect that....lol
And please don't try and convince me that multiplayer doesn't mean grouping, because that's how the "Holy Trinity" was developed. It has been around since the first MMOs.
That pretty much proves multiplayer was intended for group content.
Yeah, because when we joined a group in Ultima Online.... oh wait...
I mean, Yeah, when we would wait on the tank in Asheron's Call... oh wait...
that was in Furcadia... err... no, wasn't there...
It must have been Planet Entropia... or not.
M59? Neocron? Anarchy Online? The Realm? Nope.
ex-EQers have a very interesting view of history.
There isn't a "right" or "wrong" way to play, if you want to use a screwdriver to put nails into wood, have at it, simply don't complain when the guy next to you with the hammer is doing it much better and easier. - Allein "Graphics are often supplied by Engines that (some) MMORPG's are built in" - Spuffyre
Some soloers want to be able to do anything and get everything entirely solo in a MMO and thats very different from just being solo friendly. Those extreme soloers are not the majority.
I'm sure they make up a much larger percentage of the total population than the forced groupers who want everyone to be required to group to accomplish anything.
In a multiplayer game, yes I think its ok to expect that....lol
And please don't try and convince me that multiplayer doesn't mean grouping, because that's how the "Holy Trinity" was developed. It has been around since the first MMOs.
That pretty much proves multiplayer was intended for group content.
It doesn't. I've played multiplayer games where I haven't been grouped with people.
Childish response, because you ignored the rest of my comment.
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You said it yourself, "These days.". And what do we have in the MMO genre 'these days'? It's 99% single player games online. So when people have to come together to create a group, such as a mid-level dungeon or a particularly hard quest, what do we get? Selfish attitudes.
You reap what you sow.
You do realise that people who join a multiplayer game are actually looking for multiplayer gameplay, right? People don't buy single player games and expect to have a 12v12 PvP minigame in there, so why should it be any different when it comes to MMO's? Why do MMO's have to cater to solo players? Why do you consider it forcing you to play 'our way' when it's the way you chose when you bought the game? It clearly says Multiplayer on the title.
It's like all these solo players who get to end game, solo of course, then start crying because they can't get everything else solo, can't solo the bosses, can't get the best gear solo, etc. You do realise it said multiplayer on the box, right?
It's that whole selfish attitude, the feeling of entitlement because they paid their money so they should be able to have access to everything. Yeah, I paid my money for a banana, should I be crying because it's not an orange?
When you say the market I suppose you are thinking about WoW since that game has basically set the market. Even WoW do not offer solo content to the extent that some soloers want it. Blizzard has even added world bosses and harder content that encourages grouping outside instances in the latest expansion and patch so I dont really see how my side "lost". As a further note, there is extremely little whining for more solo content on the wow forums, and quite a bit of whining about how the game is too casual and solo friendly.
Im not advocating a system where people must be grouped to do anything btw, what I am against is wasting budget resources on people who wants to do nothing else than to solo. MMO developers should always strive to create games that offers encouraging multiplayer gameplay so people want to play with others, if that is dynamic world bosses that dont require "grouping up" but still requires lots of players or simply PvP does not really matter. They should never try to create a seperate singleplayer game inside a MMO because a few people are disgruntled that their single player game of choice does not offer regular content updates.
Seriously I have never said that you must be grouped. There are more ways to have multiplayer gameplay outside of groups. I also dont understand how you can solo and at the same time be interacting with others in your vicinity but not do it while in a group?. I am guessing you are talking about instances for groups? but you can have group content outside in the open world aswell there is nothing stopping that. It can never be as complex or fine tuned as instanced group content but group quests outside of instances is never a bad thing, unless there are just a handful of them.
Soloing is just one player and one or more mobs and nothing else, maybe another player pass you by if you are out in the open world but thats it. I dont have a problem with that, the thing that I have a problem with this is not the act of soloing itself since I do it a lot myself, but when people demand that the entire game should be available and rebalanced in a seperate instance for singleplayer just for them. Would it not be better if those people would gather up and make a joint effort on the forums of some cool singleplayer rpg and discuss there on how regular content updates could be made?
I'm going to chime in one more time to give an example for the people that think solo play is selfish, unfriendly, un-MMO, or any other negative that you prefer.
When EQ came out my Dwarf Cleric would go to the Gnome starting area and defend them from a higher level Barbarian Shaman that would come harass them and gank them as they were banking. I was solo, no guild or group or anybody asked me to come spend days there helping them. I just did it because it is what I wanted to do. Help others. Role-play.
Now you explain to me how that was selfish solo play, or how it was hurting group play, or how it was negative in any way. The answer is. I was playing solo, AND helping out the world I was playing in. So please don't put all solo players in a little category. Some players are selfish and some are not. Being in a group has absolutely nothing to do with it. Have you really never seen a greedy person on a group?
I just think there is room for all play styles now-days.
Dont think anyone here who is "pro-group" would think of this as anything negative, simply because other players were required for you to even do this, if there was no lowbies there, the shaman would most likely never been there and if there was no shaman you would not travel there to fight him. It was multiplayer gameplay.
Addressing a few points made by various posters:
1. Grouping is easier than soloing: No it isn't. When you solo and screw up no one is going to save your butt. Now it can be less time intensive if you don't screw up or if there is no time lost when you die. But devs could simply calculate wait time for group formation and give more xp and drops based solely on that instead of locking solo players out of the best gear. And there is always the hated dungeon finder. They don't lock us out of that gear because soloing is easy, they do it to force us to group up and therefore be content for other players. Especially with the advent of content scaling it is incorrect to assume providing solo content means either that everyone will solo everything or that all content will be too easy for groups.
2. MMOs are primarily for social gamers: Sometimes I do like to group, just not often, also I sometimes enjoy socializing in chat, which is why I prefer MMOs to RPGs. In a game that doesn't make me feel like a second class citizen because I solo I am likely to spend money regularly, even if the amounts aren't large. Social gamers should welcome all the financial support their favorite games can get, especially in the current saturated market.
3. Everyone will do their own thing if they can get everything they want by soloing: So what? Why would anyone want me to group with them against my will? I promise you, I am not a pleasant person to deal with when forced into something but I am extremely nice and helpful otherwise. Also quite chatty when in the mood, I'm not one of those speed clear let's just do this people, I will at least say hi and if a non-troll wants to chit chat while doing something I will. But not if I feel like I have to group in order to get something I want. I'm a sullen biatch when that happens. Or I used to be, now I just quit the MMO altogether. Social gamers will group regardless of whether they have to or not, it's best to leave the rest of us alone until we feel like grouping of our own free will.
I am convinced there is only one way to eliminate these grave evils, namely through the establishment of a socialist economy, accompanied by an educational system which would be oriented toward social goals.
~Albert Einstein
It really depends on game design, soloing is considered easy because most solo content is easy, ofcourse there can be difficult solo content if properly designed but it would have to be fine tuned for every class and in some cases every spec (for example a dps class with different dps specs) something that takes a lot of resources from a budget that is finite which means that something else has to be skipped in favor for adding this solo content.
Also group content does not neccessarily mean that someone can save you if you make a mistake, it can be tuned so every mistake is irredeemable. I also think you are pretty confused about dungeon finders, they were made to make it easier for people who enjoy group content to find members for their groups and not to force soloers into groups.
If the extreme-solo crowd is big enough to bring enough money for their own solo content then Im certain that a game of their own in a seperate genre or the very a least sub-category of MMO's will be released soon enough. Those of us who like multiplayer gameplay however wants the games we play to offer more and new innovative multiplayer gameplay rather than offer us something we can find in pretty much any singleplayer rpg.
No one wants to force you into their own group, peoples first choice for group members are like minded individuals. People who enjoy multiplayer games play them for multiplayer gameplay. You are not being forced into any groups or the such, it is simply the type of gameplay you should expect from a multiplayer game. There can be other forms of multiplayer gameplay that does not require you to group up but expecting to play an entire multiplayer game without other players is just folly.
Actually I read a thread this morning where someone flat out said he/she wanted forced grouping. Again, fine by me if such MMOs exist, but as I said, in a thousand little ways devs try to force grouping by gimping those who refuse to. And I'll never understand why any MMO launches without a good dungeon finder now. Standing around spamming a chat or having to use an out of game resource to group is ridiculous.
I am convinced there is only one way to eliminate these grave evils, namely through the establishment of a socialist economy, accompanied by an educational system which would be oriented toward social goals.
~Albert Einstein
Well where do I fit in?? I play games as a form of escapism just a challenging way to pass time. I don't want to play a game where I have to group to play. I enjoy grouping as an option when I play, but to have to group to play a game would put me off. I have met people I like to play with, and people I do not.
Sorry to use wow as an example. The most fun I ever had raiding was with a pug in wotlk, I believe it was the sindragosa fight. I was a paladin lvl 80, my 5th reroll if memory serves. I had only been 80 for a week and grinded out an impressive gear score, albeit a bit low for that fight.(I know there is a gasp in the audience, should've took you 6 months to get that gear.) it took us 9 or so wipes but we got it, cheers in vent, pats on the back it was great. The only guild I was ever in that came close to this was the one in swtor, and I had a lot of fun in that guild. And I was in so many different guilds, so many different games. But finding a good group of people to play and socialize with, while having fun, is a hard feat in any game.
What I am trying to say here is there is no winner in this vrs thread to deny one is to deny the other so to speak.
Ever try to farm a craft node while in a group? Ever stop to help out another player not in your group? Ever stop in your tracks to answer a question in chat while your group travels from place to place?
Can the above be done? Of course they can! They often were in older MMOs. Today if you do these kind of things, you may get promptly kicked, unless you know the other players previously. How many groups have you been in lately where a player seems to go "/afk" a bit more than tolerated by the group and talk of booting them comes up? Unless they are a tank or healer, I bet it happens more often than not.
This I agree with you 100%. There is no way in hell that my singular character should be able to do what it takes other players (multiples) to accomplish... Combat-wise. Unfortunately, I have yet to meet an MMO where combat was not the ONLY solution to get past content.As to why *this* solo centric player plays MMOs? Other people. No matter how often I play any single player game, it is the same, every single time I play. The NPCs say the same exact thing, the quests are always the same, and the game world is truly stagnant. MMOs offer a gameplay experience where every time I log on, I don't know what's going to happen. I may (or may not) meet other people. I may (or may not) interact with another human being, not another AI. Things unknown may (or may not) happen because other human beings are present to add chaos to the game.
What MMOs offer that SP Games lack is spontaneous adventure. You just cannot program that into game terms. I have never stopped whatever I was doing in a SP game to help another player, giving me an unexpected adventure in the process.
I hope that helps explain my viewpoint a little bit
- Al
Personally the only modern MMORPG trend that annoys me is the idea that MMOs need to be designed in a way to attract people who don't actually like MMOs. Which to me makes about as much sense as someone trying to figure out a way to get vegetarians to eat at their steakhouse.- FARGIN_WAR
My own example would be playing a tank in City of Heroes. I was running through Atlas Park one time and saw a player in trouble. I jumped in the middle of the fight and started taunting. At first the player was upset because he thought I was kill-stealing. I had to tell him to keep fighting, that I was only taunting to get their attacks on me, instead of him. When all was said and done, he got ALL the XP from the Mobs while their attacks were focused on my character. If I were in a group, the others would have immediately attacked and stolen all his XP.
Grouping is only required for some combat situations. You don't need to group to:
1) Craft
2) Explore
3) Chat
4) Help other players
True, most MMOs are 80% or more about combat, but today's MMOs have easily solo-able combat for the most part.
I am sorry this is not your preferred playstyle and I DO wish that there was a good (for you) grouping centric MMO for you and other like minded players to enjoy. I truly believe that with over 500 MMOs on the market today, there is room for a few MMOs to exist for every playstyle. Instead, we have over 400 games for ONE playstyle (try to please everyone) and maybe less than 50 for all other niches combined.
The ONE thing I do like about today's MMOs is that I can play them solo, to a point.
- Al
Personally the only modern MMORPG trend that annoys me is the idea that MMOs need to be designed in a way to attract people who don't actually like MMOs. Which to me makes about as much sense as someone trying to figure out a way to get vegetarians to eat at their steakhouse.- FARGIN_WAR
His point did not go over my head, if you read again you will see that I said it was multiplayer and as such its all fine an dandy in my book, there is nothing bad about it. I do all those things you mention aswell when playing MMO's. I dont mind soloers or soloing at all untill some of them wants to reap everything a MMO can offer through multiplayer gameplay but without the multiplayer gameplay part, which effectively means its the same as a singleplayer game. There is no need for actual grouping to have multiplayer gameplay, it only helps making it more organized but its in no way a requirement.
Also about your CoH example, wether the group would just kill steal or not is entirely decided on what kind of individuals are in said group, just because it is a group does not instantly make it a group of assholes.
It's not a few people, it's the majority of people who play MMOs, that's what you don't understand. This isn't a small percentage of the MMO-playing population. MMOs, like all video games, exist to make money and market research, whether you like it or not, shows that the majority of people want solo-friendly games. What you keep advocating is that developers shoot themselves in the foot financially.
That's just not going to happen.
Played: UO, EQ, WoW, DDO, SWG, AO, CoH, EvE, TR, AoC, GW, GA, Aion, Allods, lots more
Relatively Recently (Re)Played: HL2 (all), Halo (PC, all), Batman:AA; AC, ME, BS, DA, FO3, DS, Doom (all), LFD1&2, KOTOR, Portal 1&2, Blink, Elder Scrolls (all), lots more
Now Playing: None
Hope: None
Some soloers want to be able to do anything and get everything entirely solo in a MMO and thats very different from just being solo friendly. Those extreme soloers are not the majority.
One of the things that many people, including many developers, seem to miss is that people want DIFFERENT games that provide DIFFERENT experiences. People not only have different tastes but different moods of what they find fun at a particular moment.
One of those axis of differentiation is the solo/group axis. It's perfectly fine for some, many or even a majority of games to be solo friendly but for all games to do so, someones missing out on an important point of differentiation in thier product and missing out on a market niche that's underserved.
While the arguement has been put forward that a game can do both really well...in practice (as someone who really like cooperative/group play) I haven't seen it. Lets be realistic for a moment, ANY game is going to have a finite amount of resources availble....spreading those resources out over too many design initiatives means doing all or some of them not very well. It's why focus or scope are important for any project. That's aside from both core ruleset considerations that are contradictory in nature to serve those competing objectives.....and aside from the atmosphere created among the user community of the game.
Lets use a resteraunt analogy. Fast Food may be by far the largest demographic for dining in the U.S. but there IS also a market for Fine Dining and there are establishments that do quite well serving that market segment. Not only are there some people who simply prefer Fine Dining to Fast Food some people enjoy BOTH depending upon thier mood. However resteraunt owners understand well that trying encorporate both within a single establishment usualy doesn't end well. A single establishment needs to have a focus and atmosphere that fits with the experience it is trying to deliver.
I'm sure they make up a much larger percentage of the total population than the forced groupers who want everyone to be required to group to accomplish anything.
Played: UO, EQ, WoW, DDO, SWG, AO, CoH, EvE, TR, AoC, GW, GA, Aion, Allods, lots more
Relatively Recently (Re)Played: HL2 (all), Halo (PC, all), Batman:AA; AC, ME, BS, DA, FO3, DS, Doom (all), LFD1&2, KOTOR, Portal 1&2, Blink, Elder Scrolls (all), lots more
Now Playing: None
Hope: None
You soloers are using the same old arguments that have failed everytime, but you stubbornly cling to them.
Multiplayer MMOs have multiplayers mechanics, like class balance, economy, loot and a bunch more. The more solo friendly the game is, the more is messes with those mechanics. This is fact.
Many game devs have tried to merge the 2, like WoW, but they have never really pulled it off, somebody always loses.
You soloers cannot deny this, you try and claim your solo adventures affect nobody, but they do, they affect the entire game mechanics. You simply refuse to see it.
But, the developers have heard us. You soloers had your day in the sun, but its over now, because many of the MMOs coming out next are VERY group friendly. There has been a push for large scale battles as well, trying to get as many players into one space as possible.
You soloers will never win this debate.
In a multiplayer game, yes I think its ok to expect that....lol
And please don't try and convince me that multiplayer doesn't mean grouping, because that's how the "Holy Trinity" was developed. It has been around since the first MMOs.
That pretty much proves multiplayer was intended for group content.
It doesn't. I've played multiplayer games where I haven't been grouped with people.
Yeah, because when we joined a group in Ultima Online.... oh wait...
I mean, Yeah, when we would wait on the tank in Asheron's Call... oh wait...
that was in Furcadia... err... no, wasn't there...
It must have been Planet Entropia... or not.
M59? Neocron? Anarchy Online? The Realm? Nope.
ex-EQers have a very interesting view of history.
There isn't a "right" or "wrong" way to play, if you want to use a screwdriver to put nails into wood, have at it, simply don't complain when the guy next to you with the hammer is doing it much better and easier. - Allein
"Graphics are often supplied by Engines that (some) MMORPG's are built in" - Spuffyre
Childish response, because you ignored the rest of my comment.
Failed, please try again.