Was that what I was trying to prove, or is this just another ad hominem attack?
I'm saying multiplayer MMOs were designed with groups in mind, and every time they cater to you soloers, the group loses content. This is inevitable when you make content easier for soloers.
The holy trinity, the economy, the class balancing and so much more, all designed with groups in mind.
Holy Trinity yes. But economy and class balancing can have nothing to do with group content.
You don't need class balance in a solo game.
You can't have an economy in a solo game.
They were designed for groups against groups in PvP it was balance against each other, for PvE it was balance working with each other, complimenting skills.
I'm not talking about solo games.
Like Lok has mentioned, I think your confusing player interaction with grouping.
Were talking about multiplayer mmos, did you forget where you are?
Like I said before, your confusing player interaction with chat rooms, and that simply is not the case.
Oh yes, ALL the non group stuff I do is just a huge chat room. I like how you think PvP, game economies, exploration to just name a few are just chat rooms.
The game you want is a single players MMO with an audience you can chat with when your bored, or want to show of your shiny new piece of armor.
And how do you solo PvP? Do you fight in front of a mirror or something? I am very curious as to how you do this.
And please don't try and convince me that multiplayer doesn't mean grouping, because that's how the "Holy Trinity" was developed. It has been around since the first MMOs.
That pretty much proves multiplayer was intended for group content.
I never said mmos were intended for group combat alone, but yes, the game is designed that way.
I give up, man. With each post you jumble your statement around a different way, but you have yet to address what I questioned which was your stance that multiplayer means grouping and that the "holy trinity" has been around since the first MMOs. That is false on both counts as indicated by the list of games I presented.
"The holy trinity is designed for groups, I can repeat it a thousand times if you wish to keep ignoring it"
No one said it wasn't.
Good luck. O7
Well come on man, if you cant defend your stance, then maybe its flawed?
So you admit that the holy trinity was made for multiplayer mmos, but you ignore it and still claim the game should be soloed from start to finish? That doesn't even make sense.
Some soloers want to be able to do anything and get everything entirely solo in a MMO and thats very different from just being solo friendly. Those extreme soloers are not the majority.
I'm sure they make up a much larger percentage of the total population than the forced groupers who want everyone to be required to group to accomplish anything.
In a multiplayer game, yes I think its ok to expect that....lol
And please don't try and convince me that multiplayer doesn't mean grouping, because that's how the "Holy Trinity" was developed. It has been around since the first MMOs.
That pretty much proves multiplayer was intended for group content.
In case you haven't noticed, MMOs have changed since the first game came out. Whether you like that fact or not doesn't stop it from being a fact. There's no point in trying to convince a fanatic of anything so...
Funny, that's just how we describe soloers...lol
I'm fine with the fact that not all MMOs are group centric, in fact you have had a good time the last few years with so many titles being solo friendly from start to finish, just look at WoW.
But, there is a change coming, lot of mmos are making their games group centric again. I just hope you let us have them, instead of the usual whining and flooding the forums with complaints.
You cant turn every MMO into a solo game, have you ever thought of that?
No one wants to "force" anyone to play a game in a way they don't enjoy (as if that were possible with video games) but what soloers often don't realize is that in order to accomodate thier prefered play style you have to change the fundemental mechanics of the game in such a way that it invalidates many of the things that groupers like and find fun about thier own play styles.
Think about baseball or football, for example. In order to make those "solo freindly" you'd have to change the basic rule-sets of the games an eliminate many of the things that people enjoy about those games. You probably wouldn't be able to have fielding or base-running in baseball....you certainly wouldn't be stealing bases or making double plays. In football your probably wouldn't be able to do passing or blocking or run different formations.
While people who enjoy cooperative play or team or group based games....don't want to "force" anyone to do something that they don't enjoy....much of what we find fun isn't actualy compatible with going solo. It's that simple.....so unless a game can encorporate entirely different rulesets under the same play-space. "Solo freindly" just isn't going to work well in the type of games we'd enjoy to play.
You're right some games are designed this way. Games weren't always designed with this in mind (Lineage, Asheron's Call, UO) and some people would like a return to that philosophy.
Grouper's operate under the premise that all mmo gameplay should be the contrived group instance sort of design (WoW, EQ2, LotRO, etc.).
Even in a game with contrived group mechanics it's not so much that there isn't room for solo or small group progression, but that they fear people will opt for the non-group option for advancement. This is probably true because a reasonable portion of people do group content because they want to advance, not because that is their choice in gameplay.
Actualy, I'm not in favor of the "contrived group instance" sort of gameplay....or even formaly established game groups. I'm more of the COOPERATIVE style of play, player.....much like you'd find in some MUDS or in FPS games. Those are also not solo-freindly designs because you are VERY dependant upon assistance from other players for success.....whether it's getting help to recover a corpse or get rezzed or take down a difficult opponent or simply need a variety of different skills for a particular objective some of which you don't possess yourself. Or get rolled over in a PvP battle (or even PvE one) because you aren't coordinating with other freindlies.
That's another style of play that most "soloers" seem to find objectionable.
Edit: When I stopped playing LOTRO it had shifted from a nice balance of group, small group and solo based play (when it origionaly released) to almost entirely solo centric based play.
Actualy, I'm not in favor of the "contrived group instance" sort of gameplay....or even formaly established game groups. I'm more of the COOPERATIVE style of play, player.....much like you'd find in some MUDS or in FPS games. Those are also not solo-freindly designs because you are VERY dependant upon assistance from other players for success.....whether it's getting help to recover a corpse or get rezzed or take down a difficult opponent or simply need a variety of different skills for a particular objective some of which you don't possess yourself. Or get rolled over in a PvP battle (or even PvE one) because you aren't coordinating with other freindlies.
I think you'll find a lot of the people who like solo play also like cooperative gameplay, as well. UO, AC, Puzzle Pirates, EVE... in most of the older MMOs you'll find that many of their players enjoy solo play, enjoy cooperative play and team efforts even more, but generally dislike contrived group content.
There isn't a "right" or "wrong" way to play, if you want to use a screwdriver to put nails into wood, have at it, simply don't complain when the guy next to you with the hammer is doing it much better and easier. - Allein "Graphics are often supplied by Engines that (some) MMORPG's are built in" - Spuffyre
Originally posted by Adalwulff I'm saying multiplayer MMOs were designed with groups in mind, and every time they cater to you soloers, the group loses content. This is inevitable when you make content easier for soloers.The holy trinity, the economy, the class balancing and so much more, all designed with groups in mind.
So, can a player group for solo content?
How does "solo content" deny group play? Did I miss something here?
- Al
Personally the only modern MMORPG trend that annoys me is the idea that MMOs need to be designed in a way to attract people who don't actually like MMOs. Which to me makes about as much sense as someone trying to figure out a way to get vegetarians to eat at their steakhouse. - FARGIN_WAR
Originally posted by Adalwulff I'm saying multiplayer MMOs were designed with groups in mind, and every time they cater to you soloers, the group loses content. This is inevitable when you make content easier for soloers.
The holy trinity, the economy, the class balancing and so much more, all designed with groups in mind.
So, can a player group for solo content?
How does "solo content" deny group play? Did I miss something here?
That's the issue, we don't need a lot of solo content in multiplayer mmos, but of course some is good, for crafting, or quest driven stuff, and if you want to group for it and lose exp and loot, that would be your right.
If a game dev wanted to spend the time and make a ton of content for both soloers and groupers, then great, no problem, but they don't because that would take way too long, and they would never get all their investment back.
So, when the devs start caving in to soloers and their incessant whining, and make changes to group content, thus making them too easy for groups, it happened in WoW in the early years. All quests and dungeons got revamped just for the soloers, leaving only Raids for group content.
Now the groupers get penalized in a multiplayer mmo, so a few players can go it alone. You will never convince me that is right, or fair, or in anyway valid.
Actualy, I'm not in favor of the "contrived group instance" sort of gameplay....or even formaly established game groups. I'm more of the COOPERATIVE style of play, player.....much like you'd find in some MUDS or in FPS games. Those are also not solo-freindly designs because you are VERY dependant upon assistance from other players for success.....whether it's getting help to recover a corpse or get rezzed or take down a difficult opponent or simply need a variety of different skills for a particular objective some of which you don't possess yourself. Or get rolled over in a PvP battle (or even PvE one) because you aren't coordinating with other freindlies.
I think you'll find a lot of the people who like solo play also like cooperative gameplay, as well. UO, AC, Puzzle Pirates, EVE... in most of the older MMOs you'll find that many of their players enjoy solo play, enjoy cooperative play and team efforts even more, but generally dislike contrived group content.
I think your spitting hairs here...lol
What's the difference between cooperative play and group play???
If you mean coorperative play like GW2, then its not really a problem, because the dungeons are group play, only the quests are co-oped. Leaving soloers able to solo all the quests without be bothered, and groupers can do the dungeons, and quests too.
There is no "contrived group content", its called multiplayer mmo mechanics and millions of gamers love it!
The game you want is a single players MMO with an audience you can chat with when your bored, or want to show of your shiny new piece of armor.
And how do you solo PvP? Do you fight in front of a mirror or something? I am very curious as to how you do this.
How do you solo PvP? Well, I just don't group up with anyone and fight other players.
The game I would like is an immersive believable world. It sounds like you want a lobby based grouped dungeon game (GW1). I however would like a world/Universe (EvE).
A game where I can group if I want to, not because I'm incapable of doing the content. Because I'd like to group up for fun/be sociable.
You need to have both options to progress in an decent mmo. When the game matures less and less people are in lower level zone's so group contend is mostly dead. Therefor you need to be able to solo from 1 to last level.
But group contend should always give you better rewards / exp so they are worth doing.
This is why WoW has such immense replay vallue, you can solo quest / group quest /join dungeons / join battlegrounds / do profesions. You have many choices how to play instead of being forced to play on 1 way.
Originally posted by Adalwulff I'm saying multiplayer MMOs were designed with groups in mind, and every time they cater to you soloers, the group loses content. This is inevitable when you make content easier for soloers.
The holy trinity, the economy, the class balancing and so much more, all designed with groups in mind.
So, can a player group for solo content?
How does "solo content" deny group play? Did I miss something here?
That's the issue, we don't need a lot of solo content in multiplayer mmos, but of course some is good, for crafting, or quest driven stuff, and if you want to group for it and lose exp and loot, that would be your right.
If a game dev wanted to spend the time and make a ton of content for both soloers and groupers, then great, no problem, but they don't because that would take way too long, and they would never get all their investment back.
So, when the devs start caving in to soloers and their incessant whining, and make changes to group content, thus making them too easy for groups, it happened in WoW in the early years. All quests and dungeons got revamped just for the soloers, leaving only Raids for group content.
Now the groupers get penalized in a multiplayer mmo, so a few players can go it alone. You will never convince me that is right, or fair, or in anyway valid.
This is why I think your envisioned paradigm is limiting and ultimately fails. In early MMOs grouping always meant fewer rewards because you had to split them. It meant less xp per person per kill because you had to split it. That was the tradeoff for easier safer gameplay. If you engaged content with fewer people (or solo) then you go greater rewards for greater risk. It is the foundational principle of risk versus rewards.
Fast forward through the complaints about grinding, repetition, griefing, and rare drops/boss mobs (those were all nerfed or removed) and you have a system where the risk is lower and rewards are higher. Well that can't go on or gamers complain about welfare epics. So devs create an artificially more difficult content stream (group/raid) and then bump up the rewards. They must nerf overland content and rewards or people won't go through the more difficult channels to get the better rewards.
Note that historically no one ever complained that there wasn't "group" content. Most of us gaming back then didn't really fathom that. That was a developer initiated concept to try and solve the other complaints (grind, fairness, etc).
So of course your group content has nerfed xp. It's not "now the groupers get penalized". It's always been that way because grouping stuff started out as the faceroll tactic. Devs created "groupers" and "soloers" by the very one dimensional answer they use to address some design flaws.
Nothing about the system is right because the evolution of the design is absolutely perverted from its original incarnation at this point. The fact that you're in the frustrating position where you feel like your preferred method of approaching content is unrewarding illustrates this. Believe it or not there are soloers who feel the exact same as you for the very same reasons, only they enjoy playing differently.
People want to progress and they want to play how they like. If we remove the artificial community designations (like soloer, grouper, raider) created by overly simple design tropes then we can start solving the problem. Let people play how they like and then reward them for doing it right. Encourage people to experiment and take risks. Reward success and cleverness and don't reward failure, but when players do fail, help guide them towards success.
More ad hominem bs...
Im not telling you how to play, its you telling me how to play. All I am doing is trying to keep soloers from changing every single MMO that comes along into a solo mmo.
You guys do it every time, fill up the forums with your whining.
Instead of whining on forums and bashing players who actually like other people, why don't you focus all that anger on the game devs.
Maybe one day we will get a game that is fully scaleable, and all content can be enjoyed by groups and soloers without being penalized.
Actualy, I'm not in favor of the "contrived group instance" sort of gameplay....or even formaly established game groups. I'm more of the COOPERATIVE style of play, player.....much like you'd find in some MUDS or in FPS games. Those are also not solo-freindly designs because you are VERY dependant upon assistance from other players for success.....whether it's getting help to recover a corpse or get rezzed or take down a difficult opponent or simply need a variety of different skills for a particular objective some of which you don't possess yourself. Or get rolled over in a PvP battle (or even PvE one) because you aren't coordinating with other freindlies.
I think you'll find a lot of the people who like solo play also like cooperative gameplay, as well. UO, AC, Puzzle Pirates, EVE... in most of the older MMOs you'll find that many of their players enjoy solo play, enjoy cooperative play and team efforts even more, but generally dislike contrived group content.
I think your spitting hairs here...lol
What's the difference between cooperative play and group play???
If you mean coorperative play like GW2, then its not really a problem, because the dungeons are group play, only the quests are co-oped. Leaving soloers able to solo all the quests without be bothered, and groupers can do the dungeons, and quests too.
There is no "contrived group content", its called multiplayer mmo mechanics and millions of gamers love it!
Group content most certainly is contrived. Whenever you enter group content areas, especially instances, the entire encounter is preconceived. Queue for a dungeon as a role (right there we're entering the realm of contrived because someone has in mind what the party composition and builds should be) and play through it, the entire experience is preconceived and expected to be executed along a fairly narrow number of options.
Contrived content doesn't just apply to group. It applies to solo, small group, large group, raid sized, or anything else where the scope is already planned out. This is one of the themepark design flaws.
The premise you operate under, that all mmos are designed this way, is false. Not all mmos have been designed this way. Most every MMO since EQ has been designed this way, and all the very popular MMOs work this way, now. So I guess you would naturally assume that it was always this way, but that's not true. It has become the norm unfortunately.
Most of the MMOs are designed that way, up until recently. Pointing out that all MMO are not like that is dumb, because we all know that.....lol
The game you want is a single players MMO with an audience you can chat with when your bored, or want to show of your shiny new piece of armor.
And how do you solo PvP? Do you fight in front of a mirror or something? I am very curious as to how you do this.
How do you solo PvP? Well, I just don't group up with anyone and fight other players.
The game I would like is an immersive believable world. It sounds like you want a lobby based grouped dungeon game (GW1). I however would like a world/Universe (EvE).
A game where I can group if I want to, not because I'm incapable of doing the content. Because I'd like to group up for fun/be sociable.
Also I can solo when I want to.
So like I said, the game devs balanced the classes for group play. That's how you are able to solo at all, but don't penalize the groups just because you cant be bothered.
Actually its you that wants the lobby based game, because that's the only interaction you are interested in, chatting.
I support your decision to solo, my advice is find a solo mmo and have fun, leave us alone and stop trying to change every multiplayer mmo that comes out.
Originally posted by Torvaldr Let people play how they like and then reward them for doing it right. Encourage people to experiment and take risks. Reward success and cleverness and don't reward failure, but when players do fail, help guide them towards success.
You had me until the "doing it right" part. What do you mean? Is one way better than another way of playing? Is there a "right way" of playing the game?
Overall, I like what you said in that post.
- Al
Personally the only modern MMORPG trend that annoys me is the idea that MMOs need to be designed in a way to attract people who don't actually like MMOs. Which to me makes about as much sense as someone trying to figure out a way to get vegetarians to eat at their steakhouse. - FARGIN_WAR
Originally posted by Mothanos You need to have both options to progress in an decent mmo. When the game matures less and less people are in lower level zone's so group contend is mostly dead. Therefor you need to be able to solo from 1 to last level.But group contend should always give you better rewards / exp so they are worth doing.This is why WoW has such immense replay vallue, you can solo quest / group quest /join dungeons / join battlegrounds / do profesions. You have many choices how to play instead of being forced to play on 1 way.
When I played EverQuest, groups DID get more rewards. How? By becoming efficient killing machines. A good group in EQ could make 3-5 levels in an hour or two. Loot would be dropping left and right in great amounts due to the sheer number of Mobs being killed.
A solo player in EQ would be hard pressed to equal that gain in the same amount of time.
Sure, setting up a group in EQ could take forever and day (hyperbole), but just like a good database, once set up it became much more efficient. Even adding an hour (a very long estimate from reality) to gather a group to the XP/minute equation for groups, they came out on top of the solo players experience in the same time frame, including that extra hour of set-up time.
A solo player had to rest up after every single combat. A combat that may have taken 5-10 minutes to win. A group had healers and enchanters that sped this process up significantly. Tanks kept the damage from hitting everyone, or least treed to The fights were a lot shorter for groups, dispatching Mobs in a fraction of the time, allowing them to have more of them in the same time frame. There was not 1 class in EQ that could do it all, like the MMOs today have. Healing/mana potions are the norm now, giving solo players the definite edge and creating this rift between solo players and group players.
I agree both options are needed, though.
- Al
Personally the only modern MMORPG trend that annoys me is the idea that MMOs need to be designed in a way to attract people who don't actually like MMOs. Which to me makes about as much sense as someone trying to figure out a way to get vegetarians to eat at their steakhouse. - FARGIN_WAR
Originally posted by Adalwulff More ad hominem bs...Im not telling you how to play, its you telling me how to play. All I am doing is trying to keep soloers from changing every single MMO that comes along into a solo mmo.You guys do it every time, fill up the forums with your whining.Instead of whining on forums and bashing players who actually like other people, why don't you focus all that anger on the game devs.Maybe one day we will get a game that is fully scaleable, and all content can be enjoyed by groups and soloers without being penalized.
Not really. I question where you get your idea that "MMOs were like this from the beginning." I have yet to see where you got this notion from. Just because you say it is so does not make it so.
Others have presented game experiences from older MMOs to back up their points. You have not.
We are not trying to tell you how to play. We are trying to understand where you are coming from. You get defensive and attack the poster instead of answering their legitimate questions for clarification.
What MMO did you play in the past that makes you think that MMOs were originally built for group play? What made you believe this to be true?
Examples, please, not more "Because I said so!" crap. Help us understand where you are coming from.
[EDIT] Another example of an assumption without cause:
Originally posted by Adalwulff Most of the MMOs are designed that way, up until recently. Pointing out that all MMO are not like that is dumb, because we all know that.....lol
Apparently it is not as obvious as you would have us believe, don't you think?
- Al
Personally the only modern MMORPG trend that annoys me is the idea that MMOs need to be designed in a way to attract people who don't actually like MMOs. Which to me makes about as much sense as someone trying to figure out a way to get vegetarians to eat at their steakhouse. - FARGIN_WAR
Unless you're not interested in fun, no I guess there arent any benefits. I leveled to 80 in wow solo, and in groups. I had alot more fun in a group. It was a small group, granted. in fact it was just me and nother person, so a duo team. But still a group. Leveling alone was boring and not much faster.
Key word here is fun. Some people play the game for that, others dont. Different strokes for different blokes, they say. And true it is.
If "fun" means "some soloer wants to try out grouping, fucks up the whole experience for everyone, I log out pissed" then no, I'm not interested. I can't say for sure but I doubt you had fun in these kind of situations either. I agree, leveling alone is boring.
Grouping is a weird animal; it needs a push to become as "fun" as soloing. I'm sure it would be more popular if that were to be done, too. And that's what this forced grouping fellow is asking for; a push. Hopefully santa will grant me that wish.
Merry xmas to you.
The problem there is that, nobody enjoys anything that they are FORCED to do. It is just how humans are.
Reading all this has actually given me a head-ache. To sum it up, my opinion is that having choices is better than being forced to do anything.
You cant turn every MMO into a solo game, have you ever thought of that?
I'm not turning anything into anything, that's left to the marketplace. Developers are going to make games that appeal to the largest number of paying players they can, that's basic economics. The fact that most games are solo-friendly shows the makeup of the MMO community. I don't have to do a thing, I just have to sit back and accept reality.
Originally posted by Torvaldr Let people play how they like and then reward them for doing it right. Encourage people to experiment and take risks. Reward success and cleverness and don't reward failure, but when players do fail, help guide them towards success.
You had me until the "doing it right" part. What do you mean? Is one way better than another way of playing? Is there a "right way" of playing the game?Overall, I like what you said in that post.
No, one way of playing isn't better. I was using that as a metaphor for success. If you go into content with any group size (that could be solo or larger) and succeed with your goals then you're doing it right. It mostly just means being able to handle the content. It does not mean tackling the content in a specific manner or having a set number of people to do it. Basically it means, did I kill the monsters or did they kill me, did I enchant the item or did it fail, and similar such stuff. It could really apply to anything you want to do in the game that you might find challenging.I had in mind Lineage public dungeons and difficult overland areas when I wrote that. Some were very dangerous solo or even in a small group. If I could go into the difficult area (alone or in a group) and come out with goals accomplished then I did it right. In that game my goals were often just trying to farm a specific item and not dying while doing it or seeing if I could take down the boss spawn before someone else arrived and I had to compete for it.Lineage discouraged risk taking due to the very heavy death penalty. I would rather see risk taking encouraged, but failure not rewarded. That doesn't mean that failure should mean drastic punishment either, but rather success (whatever that means for a given situation) rewarded in such a manner that the risk is worth it.
ahh! Good. That is what I thought, but wanted to make sure
EQ had a harsh death penalty, too. While I liked it overall, it did inhibit my gameplay a lot. Taking risks could be costly. Somewhere between EQ's harshness (loss of XP/possibly levels and corpse runs (which is the part I enjoyed)) and today's cost a few copper/silver/gold and travel time would be a good find for me on Death Penalty
- Al
Personally the only modern MMORPG trend that annoys me is the idea that MMOs need to be designed in a way to attract people who don't actually like MMOs. Which to me makes about as much sense as someone trying to figure out a way to get vegetarians to eat at their steakhouse. - FARGIN_WAR
Originally posted by Adalwulff More ad hominem bs...
Im not telling you how to play, its you telling me how to play. All I am doing is trying to keep soloers from changing every single MMO that comes along into a solo mmo.
You guys do it every time, fill up the forums with your whining.
Instead of whining on forums and bashing players who actually like other people, why don't you focus all that anger on the game devs.
Maybe one day we will get a game that is fully scaleable, and all content can be enjoyed by groups and soloers without being penalized.
Not really. I question where you get your idea that "MMOs were like this from the beginning." I have yet to see where you got this notion from. Just because you say it is so does not make it so.
Others have presented game experiences from older MMOs to back up their points. You have not.
We are not trying to tell you how to play. We are trying to understand where you are coming from. You get defensive and attack the poster instead of answering their legitimate questions for clarification.
What MMO did you play in the past that makes you think that MMOs were originally built for group play? What made you believe this to be true?
Examples, please, not more "Because I said so!" crap. Help us understand where you are coming from.
[EDIT] Another example of an assumption without cause:
Originally posted by Adalwulff Most of the MMOs are designed that way, up until recently. Pointing out that all MMO are not like that is dumb, because we all know that.....lol
Apparently it is not as obvious as you would have us believe, don't you think?
Hammering away at that one point is not helping you. You have unsuccessfully twisted my words. My point is simple, group mechanics have been in MMOs from the early days, and the devs put those mechanics there for a reason.
You want to ignore those reasons and play the game how you like, and that would be fine, but you refuse to see that by changing the game to suit your needs, you are stepping on other people who bought the game to be played as intended.
This is why I think your envisioned paradigm is limiting and ultimately fails. In early MMOs grouping always meant fewer rewards because you had to split them. It meant less xp per person per kill because you had to split it. That was the tradeoff for easier safer gameplay. If you engaged content with fewer people (or solo) then you go greater rewards for greater risk. It is the foundational principle of risk versus rewards.
Fast forward through the complaints about grinding, repetition, griefing, and rare drops/boss mobs (those were all nerfed or removed) and you have a system where the risk is lower and rewards are higher. Well that can't go on or gamers complain about welfare epics. So devs create an artificially more difficult content stream (group/raid) and then bump up the rewards. They must nerf overland content and rewards or people won't go through the more difficult channels to get the better rewards.
Note that historically no one ever complained that there wasn't "group" content. Most of us gaming back then didn't really fathom that. That was a developer initiated concept to try and solve the other complaints (grind, fairness, etc).
So of course your group content has nerfed xp. It's not "now the groupers get penalized". It's always been that way because grouping stuff started out as the faceroll tactic. Devs created "groupers" and "soloers" by the very one dimensional answer they use to address some design flaws.
Nothing about the system is right because the evolution of the design is absolutely perverted from its original incarnation at this point. The fact that you're in the frustrating position where you feel like your preferred method of approaching content is unrewarding illustrates this. Believe it or not there are soloers who feel the exact same as you for the very same reasons, only they enjoy playing differently.
People want to progress and they want to play how they like. If we remove the artificial community designations (like soloer, grouper, raider) created by overly simple design tropes then we can start solving the problem. Let people play how they like and then reward them for doing it right. Encourage people to experiment and take risks. Reward success and cleverness and don't reward failure, but when players do fail, help guide them towards success.
More ad hominem bs...
Im not telling you how to play, its you telling me how to play. All I am doing is trying to keep soloers from changing every single MMO that comes along into a solo mmo.
You guys do it every time, fill up the forums with your whining.
Instead of whining on forums and bashing players who actually like other people, why don't you focus all that anger on the game devs.
Maybe one day we will get a game that is fully scaleable, and all content can be enjoyed by groups and soloers without being penalized.
Ad hominem - you use that word a lot. I don't think it means what you think it does. Ripping your premise to shreds is not the same as belittling or insulting you in an attempt to undermine your argument. I never actually commented about your character in my post.
On the other hand calling people who disagree with you whiners is, along with the other logic foibles you spewed out there.
We've already had games that scaled. That was my point. Most of the early games, except EQ did scale like this. Once upon a time there was grouping, but no content explicitly labeled group. People grouped for other reasons than the content said, you must have Jack, Jill, and Corky.
I know exactly what it means, you twist my words to mean something else, then you defend that point that I never made. Its an old tactic, transparent and a bit childish. You haven't ripped my premise, because I have none...lol
I am merely pointing out that group mechanics exist in games, and there are millions of people who love them. You soloers need to understand one thing, you are not the voice of gamers, you do not decide how we play.
If a MMO comes out with full grouping and very little to no solo ability, then just take it like a man and find another game, stop harassing people who like to group.
Hammering away at that one point is not helping you. You have unsuccessfully twisted my words. My point is simple, group mechanics have been in MMOs from the early days, and the devs put those mechanics there for a reason.
You want to ignore those reasons and play the game how you like, and that would be fine, but you refuse to see that by changing the game to suit your needs, you are stepping on other people who bought the game to be played as intended.
Sure they did, because at the time, that's what the majority of people playing the games wanted. You seem to think that because they did it once, they have to do it forever. The marketplace changed and now, a majority of players don't want those mechanics so they're being removed, just like forced downtime and corpse runs.
Are you ever going to stop acting like you're entitled to a game that you want and understand how the economics of these games works?
You cant turn every MMO into a solo game, have you ever thought of that?
I'm not turning anything into anything, that's left to the marketplace. Developers are going to make games that appeal to the largest number of paying players they can, that's basic economics. The fact that most games are solo-friendly shows the makeup of the MMO community. I don't have to do a thing, I just have to sit back and accept reality.
When do you think you'll give that a shot?
Exactly, and the marketplace has made MMO after MMO with grouping content and mechanics.
They have tried to make the MMOs more solo friendly but its never enough for you guys. The forums are proof of that. So if you guys were the target audience, then the games would be more solo friendly and you wouldn't have to whine on the forums so much.
You guys do this with every single MMO that comes out, so obviously the market is speaking. Deal with it.
Hammering away at that one point is not helping you. You have unsuccessfully twisted my words. My point is simple, group mechanics have been in MMOs from the early days, and the devs put those mechanics there for a reason.
You want to ignore those reasons and play the game how you like, and that would be fine, but you refuse to see that by changing the game to suit your needs, you are stepping on other people who bought the game to be played as intended.
Sure they did, because at the time, that's what the majority of people playing the games wanted. You seem to think that because they did it once, they have to do it forever. The marketplace changed and now, a majority of players don't want those mechanics so they're being removed, just like forced downtime and corpse runs.
Are you ever going to stop acting like you're entitled to a game that you want and understand how the economics of these games works?
And it still is what the majority of the people wanted, that's why every new MMO has tons of group content, class balance and everything else that goes with it.
The marketplace did try and change, and look what happened, every new MMO over the last few years has lost so many subs they had to go F2P. So now we are seeing a rebirth of the classic MMO, like DAOC.
Just look at TESO, its bringing back all the classic mechanics that we love in an MMO, and they even managed to add some soloability, but don't expect the entire game to be changed to suit your playstyle.
But I know you will, as soon as the game is launched, the forums will be invaded by you soloers crying and whining for more solo content, and once you have destroyed the game you move on to the next.
You cant turn every MMO into a solo game, have you ever thought of that?
I'm not turning anything into anything, that's left to the marketplace. Developers are going to make games that appeal to the largest number of paying players they can, that's basic economics. The fact that most games are solo-friendly shows the makeup of the MMO community. I don't have to do a thing, I just have to sit back and accept reality.
When do you think you'll give that a shot?
Exactly, and the marketplace has made MMO after MMO with grouping content and mechanics.
They have tried to make the MMOs more solo friendly but its never enough for you guys. The forums are proof of that. So if you guys were the target audience, then the games would be more solo friendly and you wouldn't have to whine on the forums so much.
You guys do this with every single MMO that comes out, so obviously the market is speaking. Deal with it.
Geez, paranoid much? You act like there's some grand conspiracy to deny you a game. Every single game on the market is subject to the same development pressures as every other game, every game out there has the same general target audience. News flash for you, virtually all games on the market today are soloable! That's because the overwhelming majority of people who play these games want to solo! It isn't the soloers who sit around and whine on the forums, it's the people who want to force group content on everyone.
The market has spoken. Your side lost. Deal with it.
Comments
The game you want is a single players MMO with an audience you can chat with when your bored, or want to show of your shiny new piece of armor.
And how do you solo PvP? Do you fight in front of a mirror or something? I am very curious as to how you do this.
Well come on man, if you cant defend your stance, then maybe its flawed?
So you admit that the holy trinity was made for multiplayer mmos, but you ignore it and still claim the game should be soloed from start to finish? That doesn't even make sense.
Funny, that's just how we describe soloers...lol
I'm fine with the fact that not all MMOs are group centric, in fact you have had a good time the last few years with so many titles being solo friendly from start to finish, just look at WoW.
But, there is a change coming, lot of mmos are making their games group centric again. I just hope you let us have them, instead of the usual whining and flooding the forums with complaints.
You cant turn every MMO into a solo game, have you ever thought of that?
Actualy, I'm not in favor of the "contrived group instance" sort of gameplay....or even formaly established game groups. I'm more of the COOPERATIVE style of play, player.....much like you'd find in some MUDS or in FPS games. Those are also not solo-freindly designs because you are VERY dependant upon assistance from other players for success.....whether it's getting help to recover a corpse or get rezzed or take down a difficult opponent or simply need a variety of different skills for a particular objective some of which you don't possess yourself. Or get rolled over in a PvP battle (or even PvE one) because you aren't coordinating with other freindlies.
That's another style of play that most "soloers" seem to find objectionable.
Edit: When I stopped playing LOTRO it had shifted from a nice balance of group, small group and solo based play (when it origionaly released) to almost entirely solo centric based play.
I think you'll find a lot of the people who like solo play also like cooperative gameplay, as well. UO, AC, Puzzle Pirates, EVE... in most of the older MMOs you'll find that many of their players enjoy solo play, enjoy cooperative play and team efforts even more, but generally dislike contrived group content.
There isn't a "right" or "wrong" way to play, if you want to use a screwdriver to put nails into wood, have at it, simply don't complain when the guy next to you with the hammer is doing it much better and easier. - Allein
"Graphics are often supplied by Engines that (some) MMORPG's are built in" - Spuffyre
How does "solo content" deny group play? Did I miss something here?
- Al
Personally the only modern MMORPG trend that annoys me is the idea that MMOs need to be designed in a way to attract people who don't actually like MMOs. Which to me makes about as much sense as someone trying to figure out a way to get vegetarians to eat at their steakhouse.- FARGIN_WAR
That's the issue, we don't need a lot of solo content in multiplayer mmos, but of course some is good, for crafting, or quest driven stuff, and if you want to group for it and lose exp and loot, that would be your right.
If a game dev wanted to spend the time and make a ton of content for both soloers and groupers, then great, no problem, but they don't because that would take way too long, and they would never get all their investment back.
So, when the devs start caving in to soloers and their incessant whining, and make changes to group content, thus making them too easy for groups, it happened in WoW in the early years. All quests and dungeons got revamped just for the soloers, leaving only Raids for group content.
Now the groupers get penalized in a multiplayer mmo, so a few players can go it alone. You will never convince me that is right, or fair, or in anyway valid.
I think your spitting hairs here...lol
What's the difference between cooperative play and group play???
If you mean coorperative play like GW2, then its not really a problem, because the dungeons are group play, only the quests are co-oped. Leaving soloers able to solo all the quests without be bothered, and groupers can do the dungeons, and quests too.
There is no "contrived group content", its called multiplayer mmo mechanics and millions of gamers love it!
How do you solo PvP? Well, I just don't group up with anyone and fight other players.
The game I would like is an immersive believable world. It sounds like you want a lobby based grouped dungeon game (GW1). I however would like a world/Universe (EvE).
A game where I can group if I want to, not because I'm incapable of doing the content. Because I'd like to group up for fun/be sociable.
Also I can solo when I want to.
You need to have both options to progress in an decent mmo.
When the game matures less and less people are in lower level zone's so group contend is mostly dead.
Therefor you need to be able to solo from 1 to last level.
But group contend should always give you better rewards / exp so they are worth doing.
This is why WoW has such immense replay vallue, you can solo quest / group quest /join dungeons / join battlegrounds / do profesions.
You have many choices how to play instead of being forced to play on 1 way.
More ad hominem bs...
Im not telling you how to play, its you telling me how to play. All I am doing is trying to keep soloers from changing every single MMO that comes along into a solo mmo.
You guys do it every time, fill up the forums with your whining.
Instead of whining on forums and bashing players who actually like other people, why don't you focus all that anger on the game devs.
Maybe one day we will get a game that is fully scaleable, and all content can be enjoyed by groups and soloers without being penalized.
Most of the MMOs are designed that way, up until recently. Pointing out that all MMO are not like that is dumb, because we all know that.....lol
My answer too you is stay away from themeparks.
So like I said, the game devs balanced the classes for group play. That's how you are able to solo at all, but don't penalize the groups just because you cant be bothered.
Actually its you that wants the lobby based game, because that's the only interaction you are interested in, chatting.
I support your decision to solo, my advice is find a solo mmo and have fun, leave us alone and stop trying to change every multiplayer mmo that comes out.
Overall, I like what you said in that post.
- Al
Personally the only modern MMORPG trend that annoys me is the idea that MMOs need to be designed in a way to attract people who don't actually like MMOs. Which to me makes about as much sense as someone trying to figure out a way to get vegetarians to eat at their steakhouse.- FARGIN_WAR
A solo player in EQ would be hard pressed to equal that gain in the same amount of time.
Sure, setting up a group in EQ could take forever and day (hyperbole), but just like a good database, once set up it became much more efficient. Even adding an hour (a very long estimate from reality) to gather a group to the XP/minute equation for groups, they came out on top of the solo players experience in the same time frame, including that extra hour of set-up time.
A solo player had to rest up after every single combat. A combat that may have taken 5-10 minutes to win. A group had healers and enchanters that sped this process up significantly. Tanks kept the damage from hitting everyone, or least treed to
The fights were a lot shorter for groups, dispatching Mobs in a fraction of the time, allowing them to have more of them in the same time frame. There was not 1 class in EQ that could do it all, like the MMOs today have. Healing/mana potions are the norm now, giving solo players the definite edge and creating this rift between solo players and group players.
I agree both options are needed, though.
- Al
Personally the only modern MMORPG trend that annoys me is the idea that MMOs need to be designed in a way to attract people who don't actually like MMOs. Which to me makes about as much sense as someone trying to figure out a way to get vegetarians to eat at their steakhouse.- FARGIN_WAR
Others have presented game experiences from older MMOs to back up their points. You have not.
We are not trying to tell you how to play. We are trying to understand where you are coming from. You get defensive and attack the poster instead of answering their legitimate questions for clarification.
What MMO did you play in the past that makes you think that MMOs were originally built for group play? What made you believe this to be true?
Examples, please, not more "Because I said so!" crap. Help us understand where you are coming from.
[EDIT]
Apparently it is not as obvious as you would have us believe, don't you think?Another example of an assumption without cause:
- Al
Personally the only modern MMORPG trend that annoys me is the idea that MMOs need to be designed in a way to attract people who don't actually like MMOs. Which to me makes about as much sense as someone trying to figure out a way to get vegetarians to eat at their steakhouse.- FARGIN_WAR
The problem there is that, nobody enjoys anything that they are FORCED to do. It is just how humans are.
Reading all this has actually given me a head-ache. To sum it up, my opinion is that having choices is better than being forced to do anything.
I'm not turning anything into anything, that's left to the marketplace. Developers are going to make games that appeal to the largest number of paying players they can, that's basic economics. The fact that most games are solo-friendly shows the makeup of the MMO community. I don't have to do a thing, I just have to sit back and accept reality.
When do you think you'll give that a shot?
Played: UO, EQ, WoW, DDO, SWG, AO, CoH, EvE, TR, AoC, GW, GA, Aion, Allods, lots more
Relatively Recently (Re)Played: HL2 (all), Halo (PC, all), Batman:AA; AC, ME, BS, DA, FO3, DS, Doom (all), LFD1&2, KOTOR, Portal 1&2, Blink, Elder Scrolls (all), lots more
Now Playing: None
Hope: None
EQ had a harsh death penalty, too. While I liked it overall, it did inhibit my gameplay a lot. Taking risks could be costly. Somewhere between EQ's harshness (loss of XP/possibly levels and corpse runs (which is the part I enjoyed)) and today's cost a few copper/silver/gold and travel time would be a good find for me on Death Penalty
- Al
Personally the only modern MMORPG trend that annoys me is the idea that MMOs need to be designed in a way to attract people who don't actually like MMOs. Which to me makes about as much sense as someone trying to figure out a way to get vegetarians to eat at their steakhouse.- FARGIN_WAR
Hammering away at that one point is not helping you. You have unsuccessfully twisted my words. My point is simple, group mechanics have been in MMOs from the early days, and the devs put those mechanics there for a reason.
You want to ignore those reasons and play the game how you like, and that would be fine, but you refuse to see that by changing the game to suit your needs, you are stepping on other people who bought the game to be played as intended.
I know exactly what it means, you twist my words to mean something else, then you defend that point that I never made. Its an old tactic, transparent and a bit childish. You haven't ripped my premise, because I have none...lol
I am merely pointing out that group mechanics exist in games, and there are millions of people who love them. You soloers need to understand one thing, you are not the voice of gamers, you do not decide how we play.
If a MMO comes out with full grouping and very little to no solo ability, then just take it like a man and find another game, stop harassing people who like to group.
Sure they did, because at the time, that's what the majority of people playing the games wanted. You seem to think that because they did it once, they have to do it forever. The marketplace changed and now, a majority of players don't want those mechanics so they're being removed, just like forced downtime and corpse runs.
Are you ever going to stop acting like you're entitled to a game that you want and understand how the economics of these games works?
Played: UO, EQ, WoW, DDO, SWG, AO, CoH, EvE, TR, AoC, GW, GA, Aion, Allods, lots more
Relatively Recently (Re)Played: HL2 (all), Halo (PC, all), Batman:AA; AC, ME, BS, DA, FO3, DS, Doom (all), LFD1&2, KOTOR, Portal 1&2, Blink, Elder Scrolls (all), lots more
Now Playing: None
Hope: None
Exactly, and the marketplace has made MMO after MMO with grouping content and mechanics.
They have tried to make the MMOs more solo friendly but its never enough for you guys. The forums are proof of that. So if you guys were the target audience, then the games would be more solo friendly and you wouldn't have to whine on the forums so much.
You guys do this with every single MMO that comes out, so obviously the market is speaking. Deal with it.
And it still is what the majority of the people wanted, that's why every new MMO has tons of group content, class balance and everything else that goes with it.
The marketplace did try and change, and look what happened, every new MMO over the last few years has lost so many subs they had to go F2P. So now we are seeing a rebirth of the classic MMO, like DAOC.
Just look at TESO, its bringing back all the classic mechanics that we love in an MMO, and they even managed to add some soloability, but don't expect the entire game to be changed to suit your playstyle.
But I know you will, as soon as the game is launched, the forums will be invaded by you soloers crying and whining for more solo content, and once you have destroyed the game you move on to the next.
Seen it a dozen times at least.....
Geez, paranoid much? You act like there's some grand conspiracy to deny you a game. Every single game on the market is subject to the same development pressures as every other game, every game out there has the same general target audience. News flash for you, virtually all games on the market today are soloable! That's because the overwhelming majority of people who play these games want to solo! It isn't the soloers who sit around and whine on the forums, it's the people who want to force group content on everyone.
The market has spoken. Your side lost. Deal with it.
Played: UO, EQ, WoW, DDO, SWG, AO, CoH, EvE, TR, AoC, GW, GA, Aion, Allods, lots more
Relatively Recently (Re)Played: HL2 (all), Halo (PC, all), Batman:AA; AC, ME, BS, DA, FO3, DS, Doom (all), LFD1&2, KOTOR, Portal 1&2, Blink, Elder Scrolls (all), lots more
Now Playing: None
Hope: None