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I think DAoC perfected RvR.
LynxJSA
Member RarePosts: 3,334
These are just some thoughts I had earlier today and I'm sure you guys will make me regret ever typing them, but what the heck... you only live once. 
When developers use UO as the MMO style to emulate, we get games like EVE, Darkfall, Fallen Earth and the original Star Wars Galaxies. You also get things like the CB version of Pirates of the Burning Sea, but that has long since been twisted into a strange version of WoW at Sea. The diversity of the results in theme and gameplay indicate that UO gamers are more fans of specific mechanics than specific features.
When developers use EQ as the MMO style to emulate, we get games like Vanguard, LOTRO, EQ2, AC2, WOW, WAR, Runes of Magic, Alganon, and many others. In many regards, it's the same theme, same classes, same genre(fantasy), same races... very much the same game done in a slightly different way. Of that list, I think the two most notable are Vanguard and WOW. Vanguard because it drifts into UO territory and because it has so much interfering baggage from so many different areas that it's hard to assess what that game would be like right now if any of the "ifs" had been addressed along the way. WOW is the other one. The developers specifically targetted the high end raiders of EQ but went out of their way to reduce the barrier to entry, making game specs much lower and gameplay more casual friendly.
DAoC, though, is the entertaining one. Are there any major success stories to faction/realm warfare beyond DAoC? Other than WAR and Dragon Empires have there been many attempts to create a PvP-focused RVR MMO? Is it possible that with faction/realm warfare, DAoC simply 'got it right'?
Comments
DAOC had it right imo but they seriously dropped the ball at TOA that was a grindfest and switched many people away from what was essentially an rvr pvp game into a pve grind.
I think they got lucky and they will now be absorbed into EA and anything creatively that they could have produced after the fudge that is WAR will never be.
RvR is also a term that can only be used by mythic they copyrighted its ass. So even if another game has in essence rvr they will have to call it multifaction pvp.
No matter what game I am playing I always remember daoc and relic raids and the feeling of belonging to your faction.
I loved DAoC, but to say anything is "perfected" is to imply that it has no need to change. It's like saying WoW is the perfect MMO and nothing needs to be different.
I really really like DAoC RvR, don't get me wrong, but I always thought it needed to have more things in it, more reason to protect the homeland. Like towns, villagers, etc, give a sense that really makes you want to defend them and rewards the players for attacking/defending more than just a keep. There are lots of good things about how they did RvR and a lot of bad things about it (both will be subjective, so I'll just leave it at that).
To me DAoC had a great implementation of faction based PvP in designated areas. Hence, why they coined it RvR. And I have not seen a new version of faction based PvP done quite right.
Aion has it, with an NPC third faction. And like DAoC it's a zergfest. Mythic admitted that a two faction system does not have enough balance like a three faction system. So Aion has an NPC faction that grows stronger against the strongest PC side.
Very well said my friend LynxJSA..Warhammer tryed to recreate the RvR of DAoC but the cut of the 3rd Realm before release killed it.
Yes, DAoC definitely had it right. Make another one with updated graphics, no crap like Trials of Atlantis expansion introduced, and I think it would be a winner.
WAR has a huge disappointment, because really, that's all they had to do, and they blew it.
Don't forget though, DAoC had what many solo players on this forum might call "forced grouping". It made a HUGE difference if you were in a group while you leveled, and you could spawn camp as well as do quests, not just quest grind like WoW.
This was part of the success formula, because it led to a close knit community that was used to helping one another to level, and fell right into helping one another with RvR once they maxed out.
It also meant that you had a great game to enjoy, becuase you could bounce back and forth between compelling PvE, not just solo quest grinding like WoW, and RvR.
If you got bored with one, you could do the other.
The theory is if one faction gets to tough, the other two will rally together to defeat the powerful faction.
In practice, players often quit losing factions and join winning ones, and faction that gains power can keep it for a long time, and even beat the other two consistently.
Plus, in DAoC one think I WOULD fix is the ability to communicate with your enemies. You could not, supposedly to prevent smack talk. But it also meant all coordination had to be done outside the game to organize factions, which was an unnecessary pain in the butt.
I would say Daoc didn't perfect it, rather they made the best system/model to date even still. And for some strange reason nobody, not even Mythic for Christ sake, has really built upon or even cloned RvR.
The theory is if one faction gets to tough, the other two will rally together to defeat the powerful faction.
In practice, players often quit losing factions and join winning ones, and faction that gains power can keep it for a long time, and even beat the other two consistently.
Plus, in DAoC one think I WOULD fix is the ability to communicate with your enemies. You could not, supposedly to prevent smack talk. But it also meant all coordination had to be done outside the game to organize factions, which was an unnecessary pain in the butt.
Actually I always thought that a 'flag' system or battle standards with various meanings could be employed and if a truce flag was presented and accepted then normal conversation could occur between enemies. Of course the flag system for artillery, counter-attack, flanking, retreat, etc could work for battle communication on its own.
Alernatively a horn/bugle system might be interesting as well.
I never played DAOC for obvious reasons ,nobody can do PVP properly in any rpg game.
How many Realms does Daoc have?if it does not have at least a realm per each race and that would be at least 6 minimum,then it loses right out of the gate.
When they have RvR combat are the maps designed around the combat system?Or is just an ordinary PVE world and they throw PVP into it?
This is just two simple questions that i know EVERY single PVP RPG game has not come even remotely close to doing right.
There is a lot more goes into than that of course,like respecting each players wishes.by that i mean if someone wants to partake in something other than PVP can they?Or are they bothered by PVP players left and right?Is there any content outside of PVP and RvR,i mean there needs to be a breathing living game.
If Daoc can master just those few things i mentioned,they they have truly done something ,none of the other inept developers can do,except i know what the answer already is...
Never forget 3 mile Island and never trust a government official or company spokesman.
Three realms, not a realm for each race.
Albs, Hibs, and Mids.
DAoC has three realms. Realms are not factions. Realms are not races. Realms are lands. Realms are worlds. Realms are countries. At least 6 minimum? There are 6 races for each realm, which would mean 18 factions total. Yeah, that's viable, right?
The maps are designed for RvR combat. However, they're still connected to the rest of the gameworld, which gives them influence over it.
So those two questions are answered and your argument is already dismantled. However, I'll go on! Sure, you don't have to PvP. But there was something unique in DAoC called realm pride. People wanted to fight for their realms. They wanted to defend their lands (metaphorically if not directly; they defended key strongholds in their lands, not the actual villages and smelly peasants themselves). The DAoC world felt more authentic, plausible, and mysterious than almost any other I've encountered, except for EVE (which is sci-fi). Albion felt like Britain in shortly after King Arthur's death. Midgard felt like a Viking's dreamland. Hibernia was an enchanted wimpy land with rainbow-shooting mages and fairies... but it felt authentic as some wimpy-tised version of Ireland.
Loving the responses.
Also like the point several made about "perfected" - I really should have just said 'best system so far' as perfected is a rather absolute term.
- RPG Quiz - can you get all 25 right?
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Hahaha, I can't pass up a comment thread on my first and forever love, DAoC (Pre-ToA). I've never had the kind of PvP experience I had with DAoC since I quit it, whether you were in the frontiers or even in a battleground as you were leveling up. This is all based on opinion, but here's a couple things I feel like DAoC had that current PvP is missing:
1) Battlegrounds done right. These weren't arena-styled matchups of 15 vs. 15 players, these were persistent instances in which all 3 realms fought over control of a central keep. It included bridges as choke points, terrain that could provide cover to help groups flank without being seen coming from the game's draw distance, and the ability to use siege weaponry such as rams and trebuchets. And these weapons could be placed wherever you liked (angry eyes looking at you, WAR) and it was possible (and very probable) for competing realms to take the siege weapon from an opposing faction and use it for themselves. This not only created a much more fun and exciting experience, it helped to introduce players to the siege system, an idea that became very important in the high-end frontiers. Which brings me to my next point...
2) Siege systems and keeps. There were very few limitations to the amount or diversity in the siege system. Essentially, if you could provide the resources, you could supply as many siege engines as your heart desired. This meant sieges *always* included these war engines, and defenders had to plan tactically according to what type of siege attack they were under. A good ram takes down the door of a keep most quickly (the speed being affected by a type of minigame that was both fitting enough and not too complicated as to take all your attention away from your character or your allies). However, trebuchets could punch holes in keep walls, and were able to be fired from a distance that forced defenders out of their keep to raid them if they wanted to prevent the destruction of a keep wall. These scenarios diversified the process by which a keep was sieged and defended, ensuring there wasn't monotony in the system. There was no "Hey, everyone just poke at the door with your weapons" because no feasible amount of players could equal the destructive abilities these siege weapons attained.
Keeps weren't linear, one choke point up to the boss, keeps. You could knock a wall down in any place you wanted with siege weapons, and there wasn't a limit to the amount of holes you could put in a keep wall. Thus, some sieges focused around a single hole in the keep, while others may have three holes around the keep defenders had to protect. This helped alleviate some of the inherent problems of attackers trying to push against AoE. It also made almost every siege seem unique; Mythic didn't force players to take a single path, but let them choose their own plan of attack. In RvR, the more you can leave tactically up to the players discretion, the better. Linear PvP quickly becomes boring.
3) PvP affected PvE in all level ranges. Darkness Falls was a dungeon that included beasts and bosses for almost any level range, provided excellent (though not necessarily THE best) loot, and was a good place to level, whether solo or in a group. This dungeon was also open to only one realm at a time: whichever realm owned the required amount of keeps in the frontier. Thus, players of all levels were affected by the status of the frontiers. It meant that when your realm didn't have control of Darkness Falls, you wanted to help out in the frontiers, if only to attain enough keeps to open up the dungeon to your side.
On the other side, however, Darkness Falls wasn't head and shoulders above all other areas in the realm in terms of experience and loot. If you were a hardcore PvE player and Darkness Falls wasn't open for your realm, it didn't mean you had to go practice crafting or log on an alt; there WERE other areas in which you could productively farm, grind, or quest. Variety is the spice of life, and DAoC provided variety, adequately enough.
These things contain some subjectivity, obviously, but I think they are points shared by most of the players who wish Mythic would just release us a DAoC 2.
Hope that clears up a few things. If you want more info, let me know.
No required quests! And if I decide I want to be an assassin-cartographer-dancer-pastry chef who lives only to stalk and kill interior decorators, then that's who I want to be, even if it takes me four years to max all the skills and everyone else thinks I'm freaking nuts. -Madimorga-
daoc have the best faction based pvp out there, from time to time for the sake of old times and play a bit on old emain
for the old good time take a look here www.dailymotion.com/video/x3xe12_dem-hibbies_videogames
www.youtube.com/watch
www.youtube.com/watch lol
BestSigEver :P
What about Planetside?
I think DAoC had the best PvP of any mmorpg. Of course by "best" I mean that it fit my desires. The realms were great and since each had separate lands you could bring up several toons without ever doing the same pve content twice. I loved the way there was no talking between enemies on the battlefield. Zero smack-talk was great.
I could have lived without invisible stealthers and aoe mez but nothing is ever perfect. I've not really enjoyed pvp in any of the other games I've played since DAoC.
was the solution VS zergs was a very important thing so a small number of skilled players could kill a zerg
BestSigEver :P
DAoC RvR managed to bridge the gap between elite/hardcore players and casual players. Once in a while everybody was needed (relic raids). Every sword counted and everyone got the feeling of being important. That really brought people together and got people invested in the defense of their realm. Some people became important leaders in their realm. Not because of how many hours they could put into the game, how good their gear was or even what guild they were in. They became leaders because they had real life skills of organizing and communication. Skills that your average 15 year old doesn't possess.
One thing that I believe was important for the succes of RvR was the "death penalty" of time loss. You didn't lose experience or gear but having to wait 10-20min to get back into the fight kept people from doing all kinds of stupid and suicidal things on the battlefield.
I have often been wondering why this formula hasn't been copied and I don't see any clear explanation. After WOW the industry has been trying to make games to a much broader audience than DAoC was intented for. To achieve that soloing has to be a viable path in a game and that is difficult to combine with RvR. When I think back I remember all the good times but DAoC did have many flaws and it took Mythic a long time to fix them. I don't think players today would have as much patience or be as forgiving as back then.
All that being said there should still be a market for a DAoC clone.
Reminded me why i really liked DAoC, it definitely had one of the best communities i've encountered in any game, and real leadership skills - were an asset. i would say that there is definitely room for an updated version of this game - i know the original is still going but.... with a graphical makeover etc... i think i'd probably give it another go
*raises glasses* Man... I need to know what MMORPG you're playing... you seem way more "chipper" than usual... that or someone hijacked your account... ;P lol
Regarding RvR (didn't they actually patent that term?) I have many fond memories of my hibernian champ and my guild joining in the braveheart-like charges... pushing the lines back and forth and then all the sudden the 3rd faction joins in and it's a massive cluster-f from there. I think they did pretty good.
I'd have to say Planetside did pretty good as well... pre-battlemech-thing days.
"There is only one thing of which I am certain, and that's nothing is certain."
DAOC did such great things for its time! Although my paladin would constantly get raped by Midgard Shamans and Hibernian nukers, I still had great fun rezzing for RP (realm points) and spamming my chants :P
Such an amazing game, the massive RVR/siege wars truly turned the tables of the MMORPG!
I didn't play much after Trials of Atlantis though..
Click this to watch my Continent of the Ninth montage (you won't regret it!) --->http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XL_LZHLCONg&feature=channel
Planetside is similar, but the complete lack of PVE puts it into a classification of its own. Wish more games would copy the style of PS, honestly. MMOFPS or MMORPG, I don't care. :P
"What is truly revealing is his implication that believing something to be true is the same as it being true. [continue]" -John Oliver
Well, of course. DAoC invented RvR, of course it has the best.
The only game that has come close to DAoC is Darkfall. No other PvP system is nearly as fleshed out or well made. Balance on the other hand... Mages were far too powerful in DAoC.
Planetside is similar, but the complete lack of PVE puts it into a classification of its own. Wish more games would copy the style of PS, honestly. MMOFPS or MMORPG, I don't care. :P
Planetside 2... has been noised about for a little while now, but.... well with SOE's track record.. i wouldnt hold my breath... the game is still running though - planetside that is.. with only 1 server now.. there definitely is something to be said for 3 way battles, their definitely less boring than the usual 2 sided ones.. take starcraft for instance.. still imo, one of the best lan party games out there
Planetside is similar, but the complete lack of PVE puts it into a classification of its own. Wish more games would copy the style of PS, honestly. MMOFPS or MMORPG, I don't care. :P
I am hoping that Dust 514 turns out to be something similar to Planetside. It'll probably be just a regular FPS but one can hope.