Originally posted by daylight01 That is my worry...we are growing more and more fickle with every release,how long till the devs give up and use there skill for other game type's?
If there are 100 financially viable games in the market place, isn't that more appealing then 3 goliaths?
Considering there is a finite amount of players, and many of them would prefer a large community, it is not always more appealing to have 100 financialy viable games with only 12 players in them at a time.
Vault-Tec analysts have concluded that the odds of worldwide nuclear armaggeddon this decade are 17,143,762... to 1.
Originally posted by Palebane I don't think they are mistakes. For the most part, they know exactly what they are doing. It's too bad the players are too desperate to notice.
Well, I wish I could disagree, but it's getting harder and harder to refute this claim. These people didn't get where they are because they're idiots and frankly there are more than enough examples out there for them to if nothing else learn by example so to a certain extent I think you're right that at least with some companies this is their motivation or goal.
Hard to stomach but sadly true I believe with some.
1. For god's sake mmo gamers, enough with the analogies. They're unnecessary and your comparisons are terrible, dissimilar, and illogical.
2. To posters feeling the need to state how f2p really isn't f2p: Players understand the concept. You aren't privy to some secret the rest are missing. You're embarrassing yourself.
3. Yes, Cpt. Obvious, we're not industry experts. Now run along and let the big people use the forums for their purpose.
What numbers, graph or report are we using as an indicator that the MMO platform (it isn't a genre) is dying?
We're six pages in and it seems everyone has taken the OP's statement as fact.
There isn't a "right" or "wrong" way to play, if you want to use a screwdriver to put nails into wood, have at it, simply don't complain when the guy next to you with the hammer is doing it much better and easier. - Allein "Graphics are often supplied by Engines that (some) MMORPG's are built in" - Spuffyre
player want a new game !aion is proof of that but the fact that aion wasnt made 64 bit ,made the game lag so much in some part of the game its dampened any success it could have had for a number 1 shot
now player dont have the choice but to lower their graphic card to a point that make the game look almost the same as wow
in pvp wow looks better then aion ,yes even in wintergrasp.
its easy for a mmo maker to say ho we go a better looking game.player then ask ok can we play it smootlhy at max setting on
my computer! and very few can say yes because of the 32 bit limit.and if blizzard do recompile their game in 64 bit to get rid of some of the issue they have had in 5 years.the rest of the mmo industry will be dead for the next 4 years min.
because only 2 thing prevent blizzard from doing insane open world raid content,its the fact its not 64 bit
and the fact it doesnt use the free method of microsoft donnybrook.blizzard is redoing so much of the game that i wouldnt be surprised to see those 2 feature added in cataclysm.and that could spell major doom for the rest of the industry
since after that it would be very easy for them to add whatever they want without any lag issue or the cap would be so high it wouldnt be an issue like it is now.
all mmo have now hitted that wall!now its just a mather of knowing who will do a successfull 64 bit
then after that the game wont be lagging because of the 32 bit limit since the next limit is 16 exa..its so high it will probably take 50 years to reach that limit lol.
the mmo genre is fading because of developers not living up to their own game hype and because they still believe that they can release a half finished bug filled product and people will gladly pay monthly fees while they TRY to fix the issues.
if i read of one more dev say. " well golly gee WoW didnt have this, this and this feature when it released and WoW had this, this and this bugs when they started. So why cant we?!!? We'll eventually get these added and fixed , just like WoW!?!!111"
Considering there is a finite amount of players, and many of them would prefer a large community, it is not always more appealing to have 100 financialy viable games with only 12 players in them at a time.
If a developer can put out an MMO that is sustainable on 12 players, then they are doing something amazingly well, or completely crooked, with their finances. That said, a few thousand people playing on a server for a game that has fewer total subscribers is really no different then a few thousand people playing on a server for a game that has more subscribers. Your in-game interaction is still limited to the community of that server and it's few thousand players.
-mklinic
"Do something right, no one remembers. Do something wrong, no one forgets" -from No One Remembers by In Strict Confidence
MMO Genre is dieing because no one is putting effort into their game anymore and just copying ideas that have been copied already.
Thats exactly what works for any FPS in the last 5 years and all of them are selling more or less.
So there is no need to put new ideas into them.
Most companies think the same about MMO plus the fact that they can took the testing and bug fixing in the live game.
They release as soon as is it as much stable to run without more than 10 ctd/hour. Even that tooks to long for the money giving companies behind them. Look at STO, not even a year to "create" it and thats how it looks like and how "empty" it is.
But hey its STAR TREK, every Trekkie wil buy it. And they do.
How can we NOT have high expectations of a game, after all the hyping the PR people do for the box sale launch? Its just that the devs rarely are given the time or money to turn that hype into a reality. Sometimes the hype goes way beyond anything the devs would have claimed.
My preferred MMO launch style would be an online download which removes the publishing houses from the equation, already the developer gets more money due to cutting out the publishing houses cut. Go for a small number of initial subs, enough to cover the costs of continuous game improvement, then when its in a good state, then hold the bigger recruiting drives and the box sales, some will say its an old game, but they can reply with "Its the first time its been available in box format" for all those trophy shelfers.
Grow those MMO's, don't expect to be the top flight right off the bat, there's way too much that needs fine tuning in an MMO, its supposed to be an immersive world where we lose ourselves and have fun being our characters and that takes time to develop the world, the back story and the balancing, its also a great time for the devs to see what flies with their actual players. If they disappoint too many people right at launch, the game will be smeared forever by that launch.
Suits are not, for the most part, gamers, they get their kicks making decisions in the real world, what qualifies them to make decisions about an MMO aimed at gamers?
Edit2 (first was for spelling): MMO's make their money from retention and subs (or microtransaction, but that's a whole different discussion), they only cover some costs with the box sale launch, good MMO's grow over time and should be regarded as a LONG TERM investment by backers.
Players have the right to expect a polished product at release. It should contain all of the features the developers promised to deliver at launch and does not need to contain everything the MMO might one day become.
With few exceptions (ie LotRO) most games released since WOW have failed to meet the above criteria, and have suffered a huge loss in subs shortly after launch because of it.
Developers have to try to better carve out their target demographic (and it can't always be WOW's casual player base) if they want to create their own successful game and try to get a million or two reoccuring subs and call it a win and be happy.
The genre isn't dying, though it might contract a bit and we'll see fewer, but higher quality games in the long run.
Just trying to live long enough to play a new, released MMORPG, playing New Worlds atm
Fools find no pleasure in understanding but delight in airing their own opinions. Pvbs 18:2, NIV
Don't just play games, inhabit virtual worlds™
"This is the most intelligent, well qualified and articulate response to a post I have ever seen on these forums. It's a shame most people here won't have the attention span to read past the second line." - Anon
I agree with much of your reply, but somewhat dissagree with this.
Coming from and retired with the industry I will suggest this:
"It's not so much the developers as it is the Distributor or Production mngmt."
devs simply make the game, They start a project with a time line of events usually following some kind of board, Whether it be story or implementation feature based on timeline vs project funds. The longer the time it takes the shorter the funds become. Not even considering competition with slated release values from other companies vying for the same consumer audience. But here in lies the crux. Lets not forget also that "problems" change and can take longer to fix. ie: more money.
The assumptions based on team synergy to formulate WHEN all the features/challenges can be completed vs what the suits (not making the game) feel the best time for release is, based on budget or competition or consumer demographics. Usually these two distinct and seperate entities rarely see eye to eye, and are rarely on the same page. Unfortunately the "developer" gets the finger for the bad call, when the blame and anger should be somewhere else.
This is why game houses that have control over both entities or are the SAME entity, tend to do a better job of producing a quality product.. ie: CCP. There simply is no distance between the people who make the game and the people who sell it. And there is less room for error between the "promises" and the final product. Indie companies, or companies that tend to "foot the bill" instead of being investor controlled have a better handle on how they hype thier game whether it be new, or simply changes to an existing product.
I am sure your well aware of all this though. I read your replies often and can see your well informed in general. As for the "player expectations" killing the mmo platform?.. I seriously have to laugh at this topic. It's not the "player" MAKING the game, nor is it the player making the promises. We simply go off of what we are told. And most players have a right to become frustrated and upset when what we are told, doesnt materialize, or at the very least materialize haphazardly. What's worse is being insulted and pegged, as a "deer in the headlights" consumer with offers of lifetime sub's or "get it while it lasts" "one time only" features on un proven product. If anything it's the MARKETING of unfinished/rushed games that are "killing" this mmo platform.
simpy my opinion. /rant off.
d
"He who reigns within himself and rules his passions, desires, and fears is more than a king."
"Where there is much desire to learn, there of necessity will be much argruing, much writting, many opinions; for opinions in good men is but knowledge in the making."
Players are expecting something fresh and different. There's nothing wrong with that. The problem is, developers keep promising something fresh and different, over hyping their 'innovative' new game, and then delivering the same old thing.
I'd say it more the developers faults for constantly promising things they can't deliver.
mmorpgs are running the same way tv shows and musical acts have been going for the last decade or so imho. Remember when seinfeld first came out....not so good...but there was potential. The execs saw it and the low pop of shows fans saw it. NBC let it grow and continue despite low ratings and long story short...went on to be one of the most if not the most successful sitcoms in history. Nowadays, some sitcoms dont even stand a three episode on air lifespan if the numbers are no good.
Same with bands.....some of the greatest bands ever had soso, mediocore, still finding its feet albums in the beginning. The record companies would allow a couple of more albums to see if the seed would grow. NOT ANYMORE. course the music industry is dying on the vine anyway due to piracy.
Sorry i went off there...MY point is!!!! MMORPGS are no different. the game has a rocky launch and the word gets out its almost as people want it to fail. I undertsand game companies are bleeding money if its not being profitable but why start it in the first place if u cant allow it to grow? GAME COMPANIES shouldnt commit to an mmo if they cant hang in the long run and commit to it.
People more finicky? Hell yeah they are!! theres more choices out there.....not like when eq rolled....there was not much else to choose from as far as the 3d grand scale. Is it possible for us to give an mmo a chance to redeem itself? to stop crucifying for past mistakes. lack of content etc? I do think the core of the gaming community is loyal to their games that they love. I think the misery loves company trolls will beat down and talk shit about a game slip up till their grave and be bitter even if the game bounces back and improves....its just not enough.
mmorpgs are running the same way tv shows and musical acts have been going for the last decade or so imho.
Just want to point out, that every ten years, there are folks saying this. Its ironic, but it sometimes seems we, as humans, are just stuck in an endless "complaint loop" rut.
Not really on topic, but *every generation* upon reaching a certain age, just immediately has to start crapping on "the new stuff". Even though when they were young, they *swore* they would never do that. And of course they always have "evidence" (which amounts to nothing more than pure opinion) and can never see how they have *become* their parents.
I completely disagree that we have somehow been in some sort of newly realized downward content spiral over the past 10 years, but I am sure I will not convince you otherwise, so there is likely no point in discussing it.
I do feel that, among a certain segment of the fan base, the expectations for MMOs are insanely unrealistic. This is great business for sites like this since these folks really seem to just prefer trolling forums (nice steady traffic for the popular sites)
But this has been a trend since the earliest days and it hasnt "killed" the market. If anything, the market is bigger than ever, ironically, thanks to some games that are among the *most* despised by the jaded and cynical forum set. So I expect that the genre will soldier on, but that the fringe extremists are likely to get more and more bitter in their disappointment as it is unlikely that, even were technology were able to provide any experience imaginable, any one dev would hit upon the *perfect* game for any of these folks (especially since they all seem to want something different) and most of what they want would not likely be economically viable since it would require a lot of effort and only appeal to an extreme minority.
Considering there is a finite amount of players, and many of them would prefer a large community, it is not always more appealing to have 100 financialy viable games with only 12 players in them at a time.
If a developer can put out an MMO that is sustainable on 12 players, then they are doing something amazingly well, or completely crooked, with their finances. That said, a few thousand people playing on a server for a game that has fewer total subscribers is really no different then a few thousand people playing on a server for a game that has more subscribers. Your in-game interaction is still limited to the community of that server and it's few thousand players.
I agree with you except for the highlighted text. You can argue about the quality of interaction, but players from different servers are able to group up with players from other servers for BGs and dungeons in WoW. I imagine many new games coming out of the pipe will try to as well.
Vault-Tec analysts have concluded that the odds of worldwide nuclear armaggeddon this decade are 17,143,762... to 1.
Make a fun game and people will play it. I won't deal with game breaking bugs, lousy animation, lousy control or UIs. Call me crazy but I expect a finished LOOKING game. Yes, Blizzard spoiled it for all the underacheivering developers out there trying to squeak by. Cry me a river.
MMO Genre is alive and kicking. But of course not for all people. One of those people is the OP. But I guess its a nice way of projecting your disappointment with current MMOs on others.
I agree with you except for the highlighted text. You can argue about the quality of interaction, but players from different servers are able to group up with players from other servers for BGs and dungeons in WoW. I imagine many new games coming out of the pipe will try to as well.
That's a good point, and honestly, "lobby" style games have a similar mechanic in a different skin as well. I suppose there are a number of factors that contribute to a "healthy" population for a game though. These might be things like the size of the game world, the tools provided for interaction, interdependence between classes/play styles, etc. And yeah, I can see other multi-server games adopting the approach WoW has, though I would personally love to see more single cluster games like EvE
Ultimately, there are people who want higher populations, people who want specific game mechanics/design decisions, and people who want any combination of the two. To each their own and hopefully there is a game out there to meet their desires.
-mklinic
"Do something right, no one remembers. Do something wrong, no one forgets" -from No One Remembers by In Strict Confidence
People like to complain while still paying a monthly subscription + developers trying to make everyone happy = more complaining and whining and more $$ for the companies.
Don't be terrorized! You're more likely to die of a car accident, drowning, fire, or murder! More people die every year from prescription drugs than terrorism LOL!
A part of the problem with the genre is it appears to ignore its own demographic surveys, that put the the greater chunk of the player base at 25+ and in some case 30+, but alot of the genre feels like its aimed at alot lower, not having a dig at any singlur title, its just a generalization.
So most expectations are bound to be left wanting, it would be like giving Seasame street books out to adults to read on a long flight...
I feel thats part of the problem the rest is shoddy releases, over hype and arm chair devs, so all in all i,m suprised the genre got this far.
Its just that games fail one after the other simply because they are being made for one and only one reason : Profit at the lowest possible cost.
Nobody makes a FUN game anymore, they ALL go for the money. See AoC and AION PR stunts selling millions of pre-orders and copies on release and then fall flat on their faces because what people really seek in video games is the fun factor.
Make a fun game and people will buy it and play it and praise it for ever.
There's nothing wrong with going for the money, they are businesses after all, but there's an old saying: You have to spend money to make money and nobody seems to want to do that today.
The first company that follows Bilzzard's lead and puts in the time and effort and study to make a supremely polished game that appeals to the widest possible audience is going to make a bundle, but nobody wants to put in the effort. They just want to copy what others have done before them without actually putting in the work to get there on their own.
Its just that games fail one after the other simply because they are being made for one and only one reason : Profit at the lowest possible cost.
Nobody makes a FUN game anymore, they ALL go for the money. See AoC and AION PR stunts selling millions of pre-orders and copies on release and then fall flat on their faces because what people really seek in video games is the fun factor.
Make a fun game and people will buy it and play it and praise it for ever.
There's nothing wrong with going for the money, they are businesses after all, but there's an old saying: You have to spend money to make money and nobody seems to want to do that today.
The first company that follows Bilzzard's lead and puts in the time and effort and study to make a supremely polished game that appeals to the widest possible audience is going to make a bundle, but nobody wants to put in the effort. They just want to copy what others have done before them without actually putting in the work to get there on their own.
I heard an RPG giant with a ton of money from their popular RPG games is putting in alot of money, and time (even delaying the launch until early next year), to create an MMO. Forgot which MMO that is, though, but it should appeal to a wide audience. Hmm... doh, can't remember!
I am pretty sure there would be a slight disturbance if a PS3 game was released half finished with 15 year old graphics and a promise to fix that "in due time"
Players expectations? MMO players are the only ones in all markets that take pride in saying "I know its junk, I am paying a high subscription fee to a multimilion dollar company so they can afford to get the product to work... within a few years"
Average player expectations in MMOs... are abysmally low... and developers fail to meet them.
"This is not a game to be tossed aside lightly. It should be thrown with great force"
There's nothing wrong with going for the money, they are businesses after all, but there's an old saying: You have to spend money to make money and nobody seems to want to do that today.
The first company that follows Bilzzard's lead and puts in the time and effort and study to make a supremely polished game that appeals to the widest possible audience is going to make a bundle, but nobody wants to put in the effort. They just want to copy what others have done before them without actually putting in the work to get there on their own.
Yes I agree. The fast buck is what is being chased. I think people are starting to wise up though. Folks will only be fooled by empty promises for so long, although fans of this genre seem to take a little longer, and will stop throwing money at preorders, lifetime subs and unfinished games. I think we may be seeing the hobby dieing back and that is a good thing. Die back, clear out the dead wood and new growth can begin.
Comments
If there are 100 financially viable games in the market place, isn't that more appealing then 3 goliaths?
Considering there is a finite amount of players, and many of them would prefer a large community, it is not always more appealing to have 100 financialy viable games with only 12 players in them at a time.
Vault-Tec analysts have concluded that the odds of worldwide nuclear armaggeddon this decade are 17,143,762... to 1.
Well, I wish I could disagree, but it's getting harder and harder to refute this claim. These people didn't get where they are because they're idiots and frankly there are more than enough examples out there for them to if nothing else learn by example so to a certain extent I think you're right that at least with some companies this is their motivation or goal.
Hard to stomach but sadly true I believe with some.
1. For god's sake mmo gamers, enough with the analogies. They're unnecessary and your comparisons are terrible, dissimilar, and illogical.
2. To posters feeling the need to state how f2p really isn't f2p: Players understand the concept. You aren't privy to some secret the rest are missing. You're embarrassing yourself.
3. Yes, Cpt. Obvious, we're not industry experts. Now run along and let the big people use the forums for their purpose.
What numbers, graph or report are we using as an indicator that the MMO platform (it isn't a genre) is dying?
We're six pages in and it seems everyone has taken the OP's statement as fact.
There isn't a "right" or "wrong" way to play, if you want to use a screwdriver to put nails into wood, have at it, simply don't complain when the guy next to you with the hammer is doing it much better and easier. - Allein
"Graphics are often supplied by Engines that (some) MMORPG's are built in" - Spuffyre
player want a new game !aion is proof of that but the fact that aion wasnt made 64 bit ,made the game lag so much in some part of the game its dampened any success it could have had for a number 1 shot
now player dont have the choice but to lower their graphic card to a point that make the game look almost the same as wow
in pvp wow looks better then aion ,yes even in wintergrasp.
its easy for a mmo maker to say ho we go a better looking game.player then ask ok can we play it smootlhy at max setting on
my computer! and very few can say yes because of the 32 bit limit.and if blizzard do recompile their game in 64 bit to get rid of some of the issue they have had in 5 years.the rest of the mmo industry will be dead for the next 4 years min.
because only 2 thing prevent blizzard from doing insane open world raid content,its the fact its not 64 bit
and the fact it doesnt use the free method of microsoft donnybrook.blizzard is redoing so much of the game that i wouldnt be surprised to see those 2 feature added in cataclysm.and that could spell major doom for the rest of the industry
since after that it would be very easy for them to add whatever they want without any lag issue or the cap would be so high it wouldnt be an issue like it is now.
all mmo have now hitted that wall!now its just a mather of knowing who will do a successfull 64 bit
then after that the game wont be lagging because of the 32 bit limit since the next limit is 16 exa..its so high it will probably take 50 years to reach that limit lol.
64 bit have been here what 6 years 7 years!
the mmo genre is fading because of developers not living up to their own game hype and because they still believe that they can release a half finished bug filled product and people will gladly pay monthly fees while they TRY to fix the issues.
if i read of one more dev say. " well golly gee WoW didnt have this, this and this feature when it released and WoW had this, this and this bugs when they started. So why cant we?!!? We'll eventually get these added and fixed , just like WoW!?!!111"
If a developer can put out an MMO that is sustainable on 12 players, then they are doing something amazingly well, or completely crooked, with their finances. That said, a few thousand people playing on a server for a game that has fewer total subscribers is really no different then a few thousand people playing on a server for a game that has more subscribers. Your in-game interaction is still limited to the community of that server and it's few thousand players.
-mklinic
"Do something right, no one remembers.
Do something wrong, no one forgets"
-from No One Remembers by In Strict Confidence
It isn't dying. There are tens of millions of people who play MMO's right now... how is that dying?
Thats exactly what works for any FPS in the last 5 years and all of them are selling more or less.
So there is no need to put new ideas into them.
Most companies think the same about MMO plus the fact that they can took the testing and bug fixing in the live game.
They release as soon as is it as much stable to run without more than 10 ctd/hour. Even that tooks to long for the money giving companies behind them. Look at STO, not even a year to "create" it and thats how it looks like and how "empty" it is.
But hey its STAR TREK, every Trekkie wil buy it. And they do.
How can we NOT have high expectations of a game, after all the hyping the PR people do for the box sale launch? Its just that the devs rarely are given the time or money to turn that hype into a reality. Sometimes the hype goes way beyond anything the devs would have claimed.
My preferred MMO launch style would be an online download which removes the publishing houses from the equation, already the developer gets more money due to cutting out the publishing houses cut. Go for a small number of initial subs, enough to cover the costs of continuous game improvement, then when its in a good state, then hold the bigger recruiting drives and the box sales, some will say its an old game, but they can reply with "Its the first time its been available in box format" for all those trophy shelfers.
Grow those MMO's, don't expect to be the top flight right off the bat, there's way too much that needs fine tuning in an MMO, its supposed to be an immersive world where we lose ourselves and have fun being our characters and that takes time to develop the world, the back story and the balancing, its also a great time for the devs to see what flies with their actual players. If they disappoint too many people right at launch, the game will be smeared forever by that launch.
Suits are not, for the most part, gamers, they get their kicks making decisions in the real world, what qualifies them to make decisions about an MMO aimed at gamers?
Edit2 (first was for spelling): MMO's make their money from retention and subs (or microtransaction, but that's a whole different discussion), they only cover some costs with the box sale launch, good MMO's grow over time and should be regarded as a LONG TERM investment by backers.
F2P/P2P excellent thread.
http://www.mmorpg.com/discussion2.cfm/thread/282517/F2P-An-Engineers-perspective.html
Its not the players so much as the developers.
Players have the right to expect a polished product at release. It should contain all of the features the developers promised to deliver at launch and does not need to contain everything the MMO might one day become.
With few exceptions (ie LotRO) most games released since WOW have failed to meet the above criteria, and have suffered a huge loss in subs shortly after launch because of it.
Developers have to try to better carve out their target demographic (and it can't always be WOW's casual player base) if they want to create their own successful game and try to get a million or two reoccuring subs and call it a win and be happy.
The genre isn't dying, though it might contract a bit and we'll see fewer, but higher quality games in the long run.
"True friends stab you in the front." | Oscar Wilde
"I need to finish" - Christian Wolff: The Accountant
Just trying to live long enough to play a new, released MMORPG, playing New Worlds atm
Fools find no pleasure in understanding but delight in airing their own opinions. Pvbs 18:2, NIV
Don't just play games, inhabit virtual worlds™
"This is the most intelligent, well qualified and articulate response to a post I have ever seen on these forums. It's a shame most people here won't have the attention span to read past the second line." - Anon
I agree with much of your reply, but somewhat dissagree with this.
Coming from and retired with the industry I will suggest this:
"It's not so much the developers as it is the Distributor or Production mngmt."
devs simply make the game, They start a project with a time line of events usually following some kind of board, Whether it be story or implementation feature based on timeline vs project funds. The longer the time it takes the shorter the funds become. Not even considering competition with slated release values from other companies vying for the same consumer audience. But here in lies the crux. Lets not forget also that "problems" change and can take longer to fix. ie: more money.
The assumptions based on team synergy to formulate WHEN all the features/challenges can be completed vs what the suits (not making the game) feel the best time for release is, based on budget or competition or consumer demographics. Usually these two distinct and seperate entities rarely see eye to eye, and are rarely on the same page. Unfortunately the "developer" gets the finger for the bad call, when the blame and anger should be somewhere else.
This is why game houses that have control over both entities or are the SAME entity, tend to do a better job of producing a quality product.. ie: CCP. There simply is no distance between the people who make the game and the people who sell it. And there is less room for error between the "promises" and the final product. Indie companies, or companies that tend to "foot the bill" instead of being investor controlled have a better handle on how they hype thier game whether it be new, or simply changes to an existing product.
I am sure your well aware of all this though. I read your replies often and can see your well informed in general. As for the "player expectations" killing the mmo platform?.. I seriously have to laugh at this topic. It's not the "player" MAKING the game, nor is it the player making the promises. We simply go off of what we are told. And most players have a right to become frustrated and upset when what we are told, doesnt materialize, or at the very least materialize haphazardly. What's worse is being insulted and pegged, as a "deer in the headlights" consumer with offers of lifetime sub's or "get it while it lasts" "one time only" features on un proven product. If anything it's the MARKETING of unfinished/rushed games that are "killing" this mmo platform.
simpy my opinion. /rant off.
d
"He who reigns within himself and rules his passions, desires, and fears is more than a king."
"Where there is much desire to learn, there of necessity will be much argruing, much writting, many opinions; for opinions in good men is but knowledge in the making."
John Milton 1608-1674
Yes and no.
Players are expecting something fresh and different. There's nothing wrong with that. The problem is, developers keep promising something fresh and different, over hyping their 'innovative' new game, and then delivering the same old thing.
I'd say it more the developers faults for constantly promising things they can't deliver.
mmorpgs are running the same way tv shows and musical acts have been going for the last decade or so imho. Remember when seinfeld first came out....not so good...but there was potential. The execs saw it and the low pop of shows fans saw it. NBC let it grow and continue despite low ratings and long story short...went on to be one of the most if not the most successful sitcoms in history. Nowadays, some sitcoms dont even stand a three episode on air lifespan if the numbers are no good.
Same with bands.....some of the greatest bands ever had soso, mediocore, still finding its feet albums in the beginning. The record companies would allow a couple of more albums to see if the seed would grow. NOT ANYMORE. course the music industry is dying on the vine anyway due to piracy.
Sorry i went off there...MY point is!!!! MMORPGS are no different. the game has a rocky launch and the word gets out its almost as people want it to fail. I undertsand game companies are bleeding money if its not being profitable but why start it in the first place if u cant allow it to grow? GAME COMPANIES shouldnt commit to an mmo if they cant hang in the long run and commit to it.
People more finicky? Hell yeah they are!! theres more choices out there.....not like when eq rolled....there was not much else to choose from as far as the 3d grand scale. Is it possible for us to give an mmo a chance to redeem itself? to stop crucifying for past mistakes. lack of content etc? I do think the core of the gaming community is loyal to their games that they love. I think the misery loves company trolls will beat down and talk shit about a game slip up till their grave and be bitter even if the game bounces back and improves....its just not enough.
Just want to point out, that every ten years, there are folks saying this. Its ironic, but it sometimes seems we, as humans, are just stuck in an endless "complaint loop" rut.
Not really on topic, but *every generation* upon reaching a certain age, just immediately has to start crapping on "the new stuff". Even though when they were young, they *swore* they would never do that. And of course they always have "evidence" (which amounts to nothing more than pure opinion) and can never see how they have *become* their parents.
I completely disagree that we have somehow been in some sort of newly realized downward content spiral over the past 10 years, but I am sure I will not convince you otherwise, so there is likely no point in discussing it.
I do feel that, among a certain segment of the fan base, the expectations for MMOs are insanely unrealistic. This is great business for sites like this since these folks really seem to just prefer trolling forums (nice steady traffic for the popular sites)
But this has been a trend since the earliest days and it hasnt "killed" the market. If anything, the market is bigger than ever, ironically, thanks to some games that are among the *most* despised by the jaded and cynical forum set. So I expect that the genre will soldier on, but that the fringe extremists are likely to get more and more bitter in their disappointment as it is unlikely that, even were technology were able to provide any experience imaginable, any one dev would hit upon the *perfect* game for any of these folks (especially since they all seem to want something different) and most of what they want would not likely be economically viable since it would require a lot of effort and only appeal to an extreme minority.
If a developer can put out an MMO that is sustainable on 12 players, then they are doing something amazingly well, or completely crooked, with their finances. That said, a few thousand people playing on a server for a game that has fewer total subscribers is really no different then a few thousand people playing on a server for a game that has more subscribers. Your in-game interaction is still limited to the community of that server and it's few thousand players.
I agree with you except for the highlighted text. You can argue about the quality of interaction, but players from different servers are able to group up with players from other servers for BGs and dungeons in WoW. I imagine many new games coming out of the pipe will try to as well.
Vault-Tec analysts have concluded that the odds of worldwide nuclear armaggeddon this decade are 17,143,762... to 1.
Make a fun game and people will play it. I won't deal with game breaking bugs, lousy animation, lousy control or UIs. Call me crazy but I expect a finished LOOKING game. Yes, Blizzard spoiled it for all the underacheivering developers out there trying to squeak by. Cry me a river.
That's a good point, and honestly, "lobby" style games have a similar mechanic in a different skin as well. I suppose there are a number of factors that contribute to a "healthy" population for a game though. These might be things like the size of the game world, the tools provided for interaction, interdependence between classes/play styles, etc. And yeah, I can see other multi-server games adopting the approach WoW has, though I would personally love to see more single cluster games like EvE
Ultimately, there are people who want higher populations, people who want specific game mechanics/design decisions, and people who want any combination of the two. To each their own and hopefully there is a game out there to meet their desires.
-mklinic
"Do something right, no one remembers.
Do something wrong, no one forgets"
-from No One Remembers by In Strict Confidence
People like to complain while still paying a monthly subscription + developers trying to make everyone happy = more complaining and whining and more $$ for the companies.
Don't be terrorized! You're more likely to die of a car accident, drowning, fire, or murder! More people die every year from prescription drugs than terrorism LOL!
A part of the problem with the genre is it appears to ignore its own demographic surveys, that put the the greater chunk of the player base at 25+ and in some case 30+, but alot of the genre feels like its aimed at alot lower, not having a dig at any singlur title, its just a generalization.
So most expectations are bound to be left wanting, it would be like giving Seasame street books out to adults to read on a long flight...
I feel thats part of the problem the rest is shoddy releases, over hype and arm chair devs, so all in all i,m suprised the genre got this far.
Me too. Definitely.
Vault-Tec analysts have concluded that the odds of worldwide nuclear armaggeddon this decade are 17,143,762... to 1.
There's nothing wrong with going for the money, they are businesses after all, but there's an old saying: You have to spend money to make money and nobody seems to want to do that today.
The first company that follows Bilzzard's lead and puts in the time and effort and study to make a supremely polished game that appeals to the widest possible audience is going to make a bundle, but nobody wants to put in the effort. They just want to copy what others have done before them without actually putting in the work to get there on their own.
Played: UO, EQ, WoW, DDO, SWG, AO, CoH, EvE, TR, AoC, GW, GA, Aion, Allods, lots more
Relatively Recently (Re)Played: HL2 (all), Halo (PC, all), Batman:AA; AC, ME, BS, DA, FO3, DS, Doom (all), LFD1&2, KOTOR, Portal 1&2, Blink, Elder Scrolls (all), lots more
Now Playing: None
Hope: None
There's nothing wrong with going for the money, they are businesses after all, but there's an old saying: You have to spend money to make money and nobody seems to want to do that today.
The first company that follows Bilzzard's lead and puts in the time and effort and study to make a supremely polished game that appeals to the widest possible audience is going to make a bundle, but nobody wants to put in the effort. They just want to copy what others have done before them without actually putting in the work to get there on their own.
I heard an RPG giant with a ton of money from their popular RPG games is putting in alot of money, and time (even delaying the launch until early next year), to create an MMO. Forgot which MMO that is, though, but it should appeal to a wide audience. Hmm... doh, can't remember!
No, it is dying because of developer shortcuts.
I am pretty sure there would be a slight disturbance if a PS3 game was released half finished with 15 year old graphics and a promise to fix that "in due time"
Players expectations? MMO players are the only ones in all markets that take pride in saying "I know its junk, I am paying a high subscription fee to a multimilion dollar company so they can afford to get the product to work... within a few years"
Average player expectations in MMOs... are abysmally low... and developers fail to meet them.
"This is not a game to be tossed aside lightly.
It should be thrown with great force"
There's nothing wrong with going for the money, they are businesses after all, but there's an old saying: You have to spend money to make money and nobody seems to want to do that today.
The first company that follows Bilzzard's lead and puts in the time and effort and study to make a supremely polished game that appeals to the widest possible audience is going to make a bundle, but nobody wants to put in the effort. They just want to copy what others have done before them without actually putting in the work to get there on their own.
Yes I agree. The fast buck is what is being chased. I think people are starting to wise up though. Folks will only be fooled by empty promises for so long, although fans of this genre seem to take a little longer, and will stop throwing money at preorders, lifetime subs and unfinished games. I think we may be seeing the hobby dieing back and that is a good thing. Die back, clear out the dead wood and new growth can begin.