Both sides have their pros and cons, but ultimately it depends on personal opinion. That said... Keep RMT in F2P, and out of P2P MMOs.
That's not really it though. It's just about keeping the wrong types of RMT out of games.
There are a number of people who feel that any type of RMT is "the wrong" type of RMT for a P2P game. Cosmetic or not, items and achievements within a game should be obtained entirely within the confines of the game, otherwise the game experience and immersion is diminished.
The above is how I feel about P2P games, I could care less about F2P games because I explicitly avoid those models due to the heavy focus on RMT. I will also dislike/avoid P2P games with RMT, and I'm definitely not the only person who feels this way.
It's a matter of personal opinion. I personally feel that spending money to advance to the top in an MMO is ridiculous, and would rather my time invested mean more because I enjoy playing the game and having everything open to me, which is why P2P appeals to me. Others feel that they would rather spend time to selectively pick and choose content, bypass certain things via leveling enhancements, or buy uber gear or buffs with real cash, so F2P with RMT appeals to them.
There's two different groups, each with their own valid likes and dislikes. Trying to force a payment system on someone that they don't like, or trying to merge payment systems together is only going to result in a lot of upset people.
In the end this is the same damn argument as PvP vs. PvE, and the answer is still the same: personal preference.
I'm pretty sure it was directed to me, as my post was the one quoted. My response is once again - make the game as fair as possible. Nothing is perfect in this world. That does not mean we should not make an effort to improve it.
Also: equality of opportunity is all that is required. Not equality of results.
Then item shop is totally fair. You have the same right to spend your money to buy stuff there as anyone else.
Who can you blame if you suck at making money? No difference than those who cannot afford the time to advance their char.
Time = money ... and I am sure i am not the first or only one who makes that equivalence.
It's not equal when money = skipping content, IMO.
That allows you to have more fun, and I understand that, but it fundamentally breaks the game for me so that it ruins my fun.
Doesn't you are right I am wrong, or vice a versa, just means we enjoy different games.
IMO, the only thing that counts are the REAL rules and game mechanics of the game, not any imaginary rules I make up for mself.
If you can buy your way through the content, so can I.
I don't want to be able to buy my way through the content.
Sure, I can just not use the item mall, but that is not a REAL rule and game mechanic, it's just something I would be making up.
It's the same as saying a Perma death game is the same as if you just delete your character if you die.
Obviously those are two completely Different games.
If a rule doesn't apply to all players on the server, whether they want it to or not, whether they like it or not, it's not a real rule or game mechanic, it's just crap you made up in your head.
Originally posted by Ihmotepp If a rule doesn't apply to all players on the server, whether they want it to or not, whether they like it or not, it's not a real rule or game mechanic, it's just crap you made up in your head.
It's 'role-playing'.
Now, I have played 'Ironman' mode in WoW, and it's fun when I am in the mood for a challenge, but yes, it would be a lot cooler if there was an 'Ironman' server.
Speaking of variant server rules - what about having some servers as cash shop-enabled, and some as cash shop-disabled?
"" Voice acting isn't an RPG element....it's just a production value." - grumpymel2
Originally posted by Ihmotepp If a rule doesn't apply to all players on the server, whether they want it to or not, whether they like it or not, it's not a real rule or game mechanic, it's just crap you made up in your head.
It's 'role-playing'.
Now, I have played 'Ironman' mode in WoW, and it's fun when I am in the mood for a challenge, but yes, it would be a lot cooler if there was an 'Ironman' server.
Speaking of variant server rules - what about having some servers as cash shop-enabled, and some as cash shop-disabled?
From a player perspective, that's fine. The only thing that matters to me as a player are the rules on the server I am playing on.
The fact that other people are playing under different rules on a different server doesn't affect my character or game play in any way.
I think it's very easy to see the difference between pretending and playing in "Iron Man mode" and playing on an Iron Man server.
On an Iron Man server, it doesn't matter whether you are in the mood for challenge or not, because the challenge is real. In "Iron Man mode' the
I'm pretty sure it was directed to me, as my post was the one quoted. My response is once again - make the game as fair as possible. Nothing is perfect in this world. That does not mean we should not make an effort to improve it.
Also: equality of opportunity is all that is required. Not equality of results.
Then item shop is totally fair. You have the same right to spend your money to buy stuff there as anyone else.
Who can you blame if you suck at making money? No difference than those who cannot afford the time to advance their char.
Time = money ... and I am sure i am not the first or only one who makes that equivalence.
It's not equal when money = skipping content, IMO.
That allows you to have more fun, and I understand that, but it fundamentally breaks the game for me so that it ruins my fun.
Doesn't you are right I am wrong, or vice a versa, just means we enjoy different games.
IMO, the only thing that counts are the REAL rules and game mechanics of the game, not any imaginary rules I make up for mself.
If you can buy your way through the content, so can I.
I don't want to be able to buy my way through the content.
Sure, I can just not use the item mall, but that is not a REAL rule and game mechanic, it's just something I would be making up.
It's the same as saying a Perma death game is the same as if you just delete your character if you die.
Obviously those are two completely Different games.
If a rule doesn't apply to all players on the server, whether they want it to or not, whether they like it or not, it's not a real rule or game mechanic, it's just crap you made up in your head.
How is buying heal potion skipping content? It makes you wait less to regen your health. I don't think you are dumb enough to think that WAITING in the game = content.
How is buying a pet skipping content? In fact, it is BUYING content. You don't consume less content. You consumes more.
"I don't want to be able to buy my way through the content. " ... that is your personal preference, obviously not shared by the millions of people who play F2P games. Note that it is the ability to do so. MOST players on F2P games don't pay a dime.
Both sides have their pros and cons, but ultimately it depends on personal opinion. That said... Keep RMT in F2P, and out of P2P MMOs.
That's not really it though. It's just about keeping the wrong types of RMT out of games.
There are a number of people who feel that any type of RMT is "the wrong" type of RMT for a P2P game. Cosmetic or not, items and achievements within a game should be obtained entirely within the confines of the game, otherwise the game experience and immersion is diminished.
The above is how I feel about P2P games, I could care less about F2P games because I explicitly avoid those models due to the heavy focus on RMT. I will also dislike/avoid P2P games with RMT, and I'm definitely not the only person who feels this way.
It's a matter of personal opinion. I personally feel that spending money to advance to the top in an MMO is ridiculous, and would rather my time invested mean more because I enjoy playing the game and having everything open to me, which is why P2P appeals to me. Others feel that they would rather spend time to selectively pick and choose content, bypass certain things via leveling enhancements, or buy uber gear or buffs with real cash, so F2P with RMT appeals to them.
There's two different groups, each with their own valid likes and dislikes. Trying to force a payment system on someone that they don't like, or trying to merge payment systems together is only going to result in a lot of upset people.
In the end this is the same damn argument as PvP vs. PvE, and the answer is still the same: personal preference.
Well you state that even your personal opinion revolves around "advancing to the top" in an MMORPG, which is very much different from unlocking playstyles or cosmetic items (the good type of item shop items.)
This discussion would barely even exist without the bad item shops. Someone would start a thread "OMG I hate how you can buy a Top Hat with real money," and everyone would be like, "Great, another random extremist obsessing over cosmetic items that don't matter." Basically without the bad item shop items, people wouldn't have a negative association where you're purchasing power.
The good item shop items are very similar to P2P subscriptions: you're paying for the ability to advance (distinct from paying directly for advancement.) You also have the option in (good) F2P games to advance without paying -- it's just you can only advance along specific avenues (classes) until you unlock the rest.
"What is truly revealing is his implication that believing something to be true is the same as it being true. [continue]" -John Oliver
Both sides have their pros and cons, but ultimately it depends on personal opinion. That said... Keep RMT in F2P, and out of P2P MMOs.
That's not really it though. It's just about keeping the wrong types of RMT out of games.
There are a number of people who feel that any type of RMT is "the wrong" type of RMT for a P2P game. Cosmetic or not, items and achievements within a game should be obtained entirely within the confines of the game, otherwise the game experience and immersion is diminished.
The above is how I feel about P2P games, I could care less about F2P games because I explicitly avoid those models due to the heavy focus on RMT. I will also dislike/avoid P2P games with RMT, and I'm definitely not the only person who feels this way.
It's a matter of personal opinion. I personally feel that spending money to advance to the top in an MMO is ridiculous, and would rather my time invested mean more because I enjoy playing the game and having everything open to me, which is why P2P appeals to me. Others feel that they would rather spend time to selectively pick and choose content, bypass certain things via leveling enhancements, or buy uber gear or buffs with real cash, so F2P with RMT appeals to them.
There's two different groups, each with their own valid likes and dislikes. Trying to force a payment system on someone that they don't like, or trying to merge payment systems together is only going to result in a lot of upset people.
In the end this is the same damn argument as PvP vs. PvE, and the answer is still the same: personal preference.
Well you state that even your personal opinion revolves around "advancing to the top" in an MMORPG, which is very much different from unlocking playstyles or cosmetic items (the good type of item shop items.)
This discussion would barely even exist without the bad item shops. Someone would start a thread "OMG I hate how you can buy a Top Hat with real money," and everyone would be like, "Great, another random extremist obsessing over cosmetic items that don't matter." Basically without the bad item shop items, people wouldn't have a negative association where you're purchasing power.
The good item shop items are very similar to P2P subscriptions: you're paying for the ability to advance (distinct from paying directly for advancement.) You also have the option in (good) F2P games to advance without paying -- it's just you can only advance along specific avenues (classes) until you unlock the rest.
Perhaps, but that does not do anything to relieve the fact that myself and other view paying extra to unlock/advance beyond the regular ingame mechanics as essentially cheating.
I don't want to play any online game where cheating is allowed, let alone encouraged so long as you pay to do it.
Again, that's my personal opinion. No argument you or any other pro RMT / item shop poster will change my views on that, because my value set classifies paying for specialty items or advancements beyond ingame mechanics as cheating the game.
That is why I dislike RMT, and why I prefer my MMOs to be P2P without any RMT.
Again, it's personal preference. You're free to like your F2P RMT models, I have absolutely no problem with them existing or people playing them. I do have a problem with those payment models though, and I refuse to play F2P/item shop/RMT games, because I dislike the concept. Just leave the RMT to the F2P games, and out of the P2P games.
Well there you've made an entire post again about bad RMT content. Nearly everyone agrees it's bad, and taking the extremist "bad RMT exists, so all RMT is bad" route makes no sense.
Good RMT exists. It's possible for a F2P to only offer good RMT content (LOL is at least one example; DDO was close but I haven't fully explored its store.) The fact that 99% of F2P games apart from these examples are done poorly (often in poorly-designed games) doesn't change the fact that it's possible to do it well.
Really you just have to experience one single good RMT implementation to understand that the process isn't inherently bad. Go play LOL, it's a fun game and free, and you can be 100% competitive without ever paying a dime (and that very fact is the reason it was the first F2P to get my money.)
In some ways this discussion feels like I'm some medieval dude saying "Hay guys, our drawings don't have to suck let's learn to useperspective correctly!" (note the first art piece isn't actually bad, just its implementation of perspective.)
"What is truly revealing is his implication that believing something to be true is the same as it being true. [continue]" -John Oliver
Well there you've made an entire post again about bad RMT content. Nearly everyone agrees it's bad, and taking the extremist "bad RMT exists, so all RMT is bad" route makes no sense. Good RMT exists. It's possible for a F2P to only offer good RMT content (LOL is at least one example; DDO was close but I haven't fully explored its store.) The fact that 99% of F2P games apart from these examples are done poorly (often in poorly-designed games) doesn't change the fact that it's possible to do it well. Really you just have to experience one single good RMT implementation to understand that the process isn't inherently bad. Go play LOL, it's a fun game and free, and you can be 100% competitive without ever paying a dime (and that very fact is the reason it was the first F2P to get my money.) In some ways this discussion feels like I'm some medieval dude saying "Hay guys, our drawings don't have to suck let's learn to useperspective correctly!" (note the first art piece isn't actually bad, just its implementation of perspective.)
Here's the thing...
I have tried, and I simply don't like the payment model, period.
Why can't you just accept that some people just really don't like like RMT in games? I'm perfectly content with RMT existing in F2P games, I just avoid them because I don't like that payment model. It's simply a matter of preference, like how some people prefer coke over pepsi, and vice versa. You can try all you want to convince the people who don't like RMT otherwise, but you're not going to succeed.
So again I say, leave RMT to F2P, and out of P2P. The people who want RMT are already playing RMT games, and the people who don't are playing P2P games.
Again, that's my personal opinion. No argument you or any other pro RMT / item shop poster will change my views on that, because my value set classifies paying for specialty items or advancements beyond ingame mechanics as cheating the game.
Sure. And no argument you or any other anti-RMT will my view that F2P is a good thing for some games because my value says having fun and paying nothing is a GOOD thing.
Now let's see where the market is going. I don't think either type of games is going to disappear.
Here's the thing... I have tried, and I simply don't like the payment model, period. Why can't you just accept that some people just really don't like like RMT in games?
Heh, I'm a realist. I do accept that my pointing out the flaws in the logic of others won't necessarily convince them, nor will I reach those who don't hear my words.
But I can still point out the flaws. (:
"What is truly revealing is his implication that believing something to be true is the same as it being true. [continue]" -John Oliver
Here's the thing... I have tried, and I simply don't like the payment model, period. Why can't you just accept that some people just really don't like like RMT in games?
I also accept that some people don't like minorities, and completely understand that most of them don't even need a reason why.
~ Yes it's the same thing if you need to ask. People hate RMT either "just because" or "because it's bad for the rest of us" with no solid proof. Same argument in both boats.
Writer / Musician / Game Designer
Now Playing: Skyrim, Wurm Online, Tropico 4 Waiting On: GW2, TSW, Archeage, The Rapture
I'm pretty sure it was directed to me, as my post was the one quoted. My response is once again - make the game as fair as possible. Nothing is perfect in this world. That does not mean we should not make an effort to improve it.
Also: equality of opportunity is all that is required. Not equality of results.
Then item shop is totally fair. You have the same right to spend your money to buy stuff there as anyone else.
Who can you blame if you suck at making money? No difference than those who cannot afford the time to advance their char.
Time = money ... and I am sure i am not the first or only one who makes that equivalence.
It's not equal when money = skipping content, IMO.
That allows you to have more fun, and I understand that, but it fundamentally breaks the game for me so that it ruins my fun.
Doesn't you are right I am wrong, or vice a versa, just means we enjoy different games.
IMO, the only thing that counts are the REAL rules and game mechanics of the game, not any imaginary rules I make up for mself.
If you can buy your way through the content, so can I.
I don't want to be able to buy my way through the content.
Sure, I can just not use the item mall, but that is not a REAL rule and game mechanic, it's just something I would be making up.
It's the same as saying a Perma death game is the same as if you just delete your character if you die.
Obviously those are two completely Different games.
If a rule doesn't apply to all players on the server, whether they want it to or not, whether they like it or not, it's not a real rule or game mechanic, it's just crap you made up in your head.
How is buying heal potion skipping content? It makes you wait less to regen your health. I don't think you are dumb enough to think that WAITING in the game = content.
How is buying a pet skipping content? In fact, it is BUYING content. You don't consume less content. You consumes more.
"I don't want to be able to buy my way through the content. " ... that is your personal preference, obviously not shared by the millions of people who play F2P games. Note that it is the ability to do so. MOST players on F2P games don't pay a dime.
Waiting in the game = content.
"consuming" =/= content. Consuming = consuming.
Calling me dumb doesn't change that fact.
You may not LIKE the content, but it's a part of the game, and if you pay to skip it, you're skipping part of the game.
For example, in EQ there was a boat ride in the original game way before fixes and expansions, that took way over 20 minutes REAL TIME.
You sat on the boat. That's ALL you did. Well, you chatted with other players, but that's it.
I'm not saying that was a good feature or reasonable, but look what it did. It made the world seem HUGE! It made travel from one continent to another seem epic.
And what if you didn't bind and got killed? Another boat ride, which made binding VERY important.
And if you saw other races on a different continent, you KNEW they had made the boat ride too.
Now, what if you could pay a nickel or a quarter and skip the boat ride?
Would that fundamentally change the game? I think it would. And that is what I mean by "skipping content".
I mean paying money to fundamentally change the rules of the game.
What is content to you? Just quests? Just Mobs? Just phat lewt? For me, it is the entirety of what makes up the game.
here's what I think would NOT be skipping content. EVERYONE pays a nickel to go from one continent to another, no exceptions. You got no nickel, you don't leave the continent.
OR, EVERYONE rides the boat, no exceptions, doesn't matter if you have a nickel or 100 bucks, you can't skip the content with money.
Here's the thing... I have tried, and I simply don't like the payment model, period. Why can't you just accept that some people just really don't like like RMT in games?
I also accept that some people don't like minorities, and completely understand that most of them don't even need a reason why.
~ Yes it's the same thing if you need to ask. People hate RMT either "just because" or "because it's bad for the rest of us" with no solid proof. Same argument in both boats.
The reasoning behind not wanting to play an RMT is sound. I don't want my video games to be about who wants to spend the most money to get ahead. Sure time and money are similar, but I'd rather have time be the payment, then somebody with a lot of disposable income shooting past everyone after playing the game for one day.
Here's the thing... I have tried, and I simply don't like the payment model, period. Why can't you just accept that some people just really don't like like RMT in games?
I also accept that some people don't like minorities, and completely understand that most of them don't even need a reason why.
~ Yes it's the same thing if you need to ask. People hate RMT either "just because" or "because it's bad for the rest of us" with no solid proof. Same argument in both boats.
The reasoning behind not wanting to play an RMT is sound. I don't want my video games to be about who wants to spend the most money to get ahead. Sure time and money are similar, but I'd rather have time be the payment, then somebody with a lot of disposable income shooting past everyone after playing the game for one day.
You'd rather have someone with a lot of disposable *time* shooting past everyone?
You'd rather have someone with a lot of disposable *time* shooting past everyone?
At least they're getting ahead by actually playing the game.
not to mention, I will eventually catch him up, since the content is the same for both of us, but he is getting it faster. his call, doesnt affect me at all...
now a RMT buyer will reach peaks that I will NEVER reach, due to the inherent advantages that most cash shop items provide. In many cases i could very well play the game more than him, better than him, and still be outclassed by his wallet-made char.
You'd rather have someone with a lot of disposable *time* shooting past everyone?
At least they're getting ahead by actually playing the game.
not to mention, I will eventually catch him up, since the content is the same for both of us, but he is getting it faster. his call, doesnt affect me at all...
now a RMT buyer will reach peaks that I will NEVER reach, due to the inherent advantages that most cash shop items provide. In many cases i could very well play the game more than him, better than him, and still be outclassed by his wallet-made char.
how can anyone sane defend that is beyond me.
The cash shop is also available to you. Its your choice not to use it. Those who have endless time to dump into the game, are in the same position. I value my time more than my money. I have no problem supporting games that I enjoy. If thats through cash shops, then so be it.
You'd rather have someone with a lot of disposable *time* shooting past everyone?
At least they're getting ahead by actually playing the game.
not to mention, I will eventually catch him up, since the content is the same for both of us, but he is getting it faster. his call, doesnt affect me at all...
now a RMT buyer will reach peaks that I will NEVER reach, due to the inherent advantages that most cash shop items provide. In many cases i could very well play the game more than him, better than him, and still be outclassed by his wallet-made char.
how can anyone sane defend that is beyond me.
Which games exactly have these cash shops that lets you reach peaks you will never be able to reach if you don't use it? I don't know of any cash shop games that offer such enormous advantages.
Actually my choice is to stay 1000 miles away from that kind of games
Im just an old fart but really cant see the point of paying extra so you dont have to play the game that you pay for. Its kinda like paying someone to eat your birthday cake for you.
Comments
Then item shop is totally fair. You have the same right to spend your money to buy stuff there as anyone else.
Who can you blame if you suck at making money? No difference than those who cannot afford the time to advance their char.
Time = money ... and I am sure i am not the first or only one who makes that equivalence.
That logic is so hilariously broken.
That's the reasoning these scammers are hoping you'll use. I you can compete, you just have to pay as much as the next guy.
I don't compete. Competing in a PvE game like DDO is a completely broken concept. I free ride on those who pays, which is 100x better than competing.
I love the DDO model because I can free-ride.
That's not really it though. It's just about keeping the wrong types of RMT out of games.
There are a number of people who feel that any type of RMT is "the wrong" type of RMT for a P2P game. Cosmetic or not, items and achievements within a game should be obtained entirely within the confines of the game, otherwise the game experience and immersion is diminished.
The above is how I feel about P2P games, I could care less about F2P games because I explicitly avoid those models due to the heavy focus on RMT. I will also dislike/avoid P2P games with RMT, and I'm definitely not the only person who feels this way.
It's a matter of personal opinion. I personally feel that spending money to advance to the top in an MMO is ridiculous, and would rather my time invested mean more because I enjoy playing the game and having everything open to me, which is why P2P appeals to me. Others feel that they would rather spend time to selectively pick and choose content, bypass certain things via leveling enhancements, or buy uber gear or buffs with real cash, so F2P with RMT appeals to them.
There's two different groups, each with their own valid likes and dislikes. Trying to force a payment system on someone that they don't like, or trying to merge payment systems together is only going to result in a lot of upset people.
In the end this is the same damn argument as PvP vs. PvE, and the answer is still the same: personal preference.
Then item shop is totally fair. You have the same right to spend your money to buy stuff there as anyone else.
Who can you blame if you suck at making money? No difference than those who cannot afford the time to advance their char.
Time = money ... and I am sure i am not the first or only one who makes that equivalence.
It's not equal when money = skipping content, IMO.
That allows you to have more fun, and I understand that, but it fundamentally breaks the game for me so that it ruins my fun.
Doesn't you are right I am wrong, or vice a versa, just means we enjoy different games.
IMO, the only thing that counts are the REAL rules and game mechanics of the game, not any imaginary rules I make up for mself.
If you can buy your way through the content, so can I.
I don't want to be able to buy my way through the content.
Sure, I can just not use the item mall, but that is not a REAL rule and game mechanic, it's just something I would be making up.
It's the same as saying a Perma death game is the same as if you just delete your character if you die.
Obviously those are two completely Different games.
If a rule doesn't apply to all players on the server, whether they want it to or not, whether they like it or not, it's not a real rule or game mechanic, it's just crap you made up in your head.
It's 'role-playing'.
Now, I have played 'Ironman' mode in WoW, and it's fun when I am in the mood for a challenge, but yes, it would be a lot cooler if there was an 'Ironman' server.
Speaking of variant server rules - what about having some servers as cash shop-enabled, and some as cash shop-disabled?
"" Voice acting isn't an RPG element....it's just a production value." - grumpymel2
It's 'role-playing'.
Now, I have played 'Ironman' mode in WoW, and it's fun when I am in the mood for a challenge, but yes, it would be a lot cooler if there was an 'Ironman' server.
Speaking of variant server rules - what about having some servers as cash shop-enabled, and some as cash shop-disabled?
From a player perspective, that's fine. The only thing that matters to me as a player are the rules on the server I am playing on.
The fact that other people are playing under different rules on a different server doesn't affect my character or game play in any way.
I think it's very easy to see the difference between pretending and playing in "Iron Man mode" and playing on an Iron Man server.
On an Iron Man server, it doesn't matter whether you are in the mood for challenge or not, because the challenge is real. In "Iron Man mode' the
Then item shop is totally fair. You have the same right to spend your money to buy stuff there as anyone else.
Who can you blame if you suck at making money? No difference than those who cannot afford the time to advance their char.
Time = money ... and I am sure i am not the first or only one who makes that equivalence.
It's not equal when money = skipping content, IMO.
That allows you to have more fun, and I understand that, but it fundamentally breaks the game for me so that it ruins my fun.
Doesn't you are right I am wrong, or vice a versa, just means we enjoy different games.
IMO, the only thing that counts are the REAL rules and game mechanics of the game, not any imaginary rules I make up for mself.
If you can buy your way through the content, so can I.
I don't want to be able to buy my way through the content.
Sure, I can just not use the item mall, but that is not a REAL rule and game mechanic, it's just something I would be making up.
It's the same as saying a Perma death game is the same as if you just delete your character if you die.
Obviously those are two completely Different games.
If a rule doesn't apply to all players on the server, whether they want it to or not, whether they like it or not, it's not a real rule or game mechanic, it's just crap you made up in your head.
How is buying heal potion skipping content? It makes you wait less to regen your health. I don't think you are dumb enough to think that WAITING in the game = content.
How is buying a pet skipping content? In fact, it is BUYING content. You don't consume less content. You consumes more.
"I don't want to be able to buy my way through the content. " ... that is your personal preference, obviously not shared by the millions of people who play F2P games. Note that it is the ability to do so. MOST players on F2P games don't pay a dime.
That's not really it though. It's just about keeping the wrong types of RMT out of games.
There are a number of people who feel that any type of RMT is "the wrong" type of RMT for a P2P game. Cosmetic or not, items and achievements within a game should be obtained entirely within the confines of the game, otherwise the game experience and immersion is diminished.
The above is how I feel about P2P games, I could care less about F2P games because I explicitly avoid those models due to the heavy focus on RMT. I will also dislike/avoid P2P games with RMT, and I'm definitely not the only person who feels this way.
It's a matter of personal opinion. I personally feel that spending money to advance to the top in an MMO is ridiculous, and would rather my time invested mean more because I enjoy playing the game and having everything open to me, which is why P2P appeals to me. Others feel that they would rather spend time to selectively pick and choose content, bypass certain things via leveling enhancements, or buy uber gear or buffs with real cash, so F2P with RMT appeals to them.
There's two different groups, each with their own valid likes and dislikes. Trying to force a payment system on someone that they don't like, or trying to merge payment systems together is only going to result in a lot of upset people.
In the end this is the same damn argument as PvP vs. PvE, and the answer is still the same: personal preference.
Well you state that even your personal opinion revolves around "advancing to the top" in an MMORPG, which is very much different from unlocking playstyles or cosmetic items (the good type of item shop items.)
This discussion would barely even exist without the bad item shops. Someone would start a thread "OMG I hate how you can buy a Top Hat with real money," and everyone would be like, "Great, another random extremist obsessing over cosmetic items that don't matter." Basically without the bad item shop items, people wouldn't have a negative association where you're purchasing power.
The good item shop items are very similar to P2P subscriptions: you're paying for the ability to advance (distinct from paying directly for advancement.) You also have the option in (good) F2P games to advance without paying -- it's just you can only advance along specific avenues (classes) until you unlock the rest.
"What is truly revealing is his implication that believing something to be true is the same as it being true. [continue]" -John Oliver
That's not really it though. It's just about keeping the wrong types of RMT out of games.
There are a number of people who feel that any type of RMT is "the wrong" type of RMT for a P2P game. Cosmetic or not, items and achievements within a game should be obtained entirely within the confines of the game, otherwise the game experience and immersion is diminished.
The above is how I feel about P2P games, I could care less about F2P games because I explicitly avoid those models due to the heavy focus on RMT. I will also dislike/avoid P2P games with RMT, and I'm definitely not the only person who feels this way.
It's a matter of personal opinion. I personally feel that spending money to advance to the top in an MMO is ridiculous, and would rather my time invested mean more because I enjoy playing the game and having everything open to me, which is why P2P appeals to me. Others feel that they would rather spend time to selectively pick and choose content, bypass certain things via leveling enhancements, or buy uber gear or buffs with real cash, so F2P with RMT appeals to them.
There's two different groups, each with their own valid likes and dislikes. Trying to force a payment system on someone that they don't like, or trying to merge payment systems together is only going to result in a lot of upset people.
In the end this is the same damn argument as PvP vs. PvE, and the answer is still the same: personal preference.
Well you state that even your personal opinion revolves around "advancing to the top" in an MMORPG, which is very much different from unlocking playstyles or cosmetic items (the good type of item shop items.)
This discussion would barely even exist without the bad item shops. Someone would start a thread "OMG I hate how you can buy a Top Hat with real money," and everyone would be like, "Great, another random extremist obsessing over cosmetic items that don't matter." Basically without the bad item shop items, people wouldn't have a negative association where you're purchasing power.
The good item shop items are very similar to P2P subscriptions: you're paying for the ability to advance (distinct from paying directly for advancement.) You also have the option in (good) F2P games to advance without paying -- it's just you can only advance along specific avenues (classes) until you unlock the rest.
Perhaps, but that does not do anything to relieve the fact that myself and other view paying extra to unlock/advance beyond the regular ingame mechanics as essentially cheating.
I don't want to play any online game where cheating is allowed, let alone encouraged so long as you pay to do it.
Again, that's my personal opinion. No argument you or any other pro RMT / item shop poster will change my views on that, because my value set classifies paying for specialty items or advancements beyond ingame mechanics as cheating the game.
That is why I dislike RMT, and why I prefer my MMOs to be P2P without any RMT.
Again, it's personal preference. You're free to like your F2P RMT models, I have absolutely no problem with them existing or people playing them. I do have a problem with those payment models though, and I refuse to play F2P/item shop/RMT games, because I dislike the concept. Just leave the RMT to the F2P games, and out of the P2P games.
Well there you've made an entire post again about bad RMT content. Nearly everyone agrees it's bad, and taking the extremist "bad RMT exists, so all RMT is bad" route makes no sense.
Good RMT exists. It's possible for a F2P to only offer good RMT content (LOL is at least one example; DDO was close but I haven't fully explored its store.) The fact that 99% of F2P games apart from these examples are done poorly (often in poorly-designed games) doesn't change the fact that it's possible to do it well.
Really you just have to experience one single good RMT implementation to understand that the process isn't inherently bad. Go play LOL, it's a fun game and free, and you can be 100% competitive without ever paying a dime (and that very fact is the reason it was the first F2P to get my money.)
In some ways this discussion feels like I'm some medieval dude saying "Hay guys, our drawings don't have to suck let's learn to use perspective correctly!" (note the first art piece isn't actually bad, just its implementation of perspective.)
"What is truly revealing is his implication that believing something to be true is the same as it being true. [continue]" -John Oliver
Here's the thing...
I have tried, and I simply don't like the payment model, period.
Why can't you just accept that some people just really don't like like RMT in games? I'm perfectly content with RMT existing in F2P games, I just avoid them because I don't like that payment model. It's simply a matter of preference, like how some people prefer coke over pepsi, and vice versa. You can try all you want to convince the people who don't like RMT otherwise, but you're not going to succeed.
So again I say, leave RMT to F2P, and out of P2P. The people who want RMT are already playing RMT games, and the people who don't are playing P2P games.
Again, that's my personal opinion. No argument you or any other pro RMT / item shop poster will change my views on that, because my value set classifies paying for specialty items or advancements beyond ingame mechanics as cheating the game.
Sure. And no argument you or any other anti-RMT will my view that F2P is a good thing for some games because my value says having fun and paying nothing is a GOOD thing.
Now let's see where the market is going. I don't think either type of games is going to disappear.
Heh, I'm a realist. I do accept that my pointing out the flaws in the logic of others won't necessarily convince them, nor will I reach those who don't hear my words.
But I can still point out the flaws. (:
"What is truly revealing is his implication that believing something to be true is the same as it being true. [continue]" -John Oliver
I also accept that some people don't like minorities, and completely understand that most of them don't even need a reason why.
~ Yes it's the same thing if you need to ask. People hate RMT either "just because" or "because it's bad for the rest of us" with no solid proof. Same argument in both boats.
Writer / Musician / Game Designer
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Waiting On: GW2, TSW, Archeage, The Rapture
Then item shop is totally fair. You have the same right to spend your money to buy stuff there as anyone else.
Who can you blame if you suck at making money? No difference than those who cannot afford the time to advance their char.
Time = money ... and I am sure i am not the first or only one who makes that equivalence.
It's not equal when money = skipping content, IMO.
That allows you to have more fun, and I understand that, but it fundamentally breaks the game for me so that it ruins my fun.
Doesn't you are right I am wrong, or vice a versa, just means we enjoy different games.
IMO, the only thing that counts are the REAL rules and game mechanics of the game, not any imaginary rules I make up for mself.
If you can buy your way through the content, so can I.
I don't want to be able to buy my way through the content.
Sure, I can just not use the item mall, but that is not a REAL rule and game mechanic, it's just something I would be making up.
It's the same as saying a Perma death game is the same as if you just delete your character if you die.
Obviously those are two completely Different games.
If a rule doesn't apply to all players on the server, whether they want it to or not, whether they like it or not, it's not a real rule or game mechanic, it's just crap you made up in your head.
How is buying heal potion skipping content? It makes you wait less to regen your health. I don't think you are dumb enough to think that WAITING in the game = content.
How is buying a pet skipping content? In fact, it is BUYING content. You don't consume less content. You consumes more.
"I don't want to be able to buy my way through the content. " ... that is your personal preference, obviously not shared by the millions of people who play F2P games. Note that it is the ability to do so. MOST players on F2P games don't pay a dime.
Waiting in the game = content.
"consuming" =/= content. Consuming = consuming.
Calling me dumb doesn't change that fact.
You may not LIKE the content, but it's a part of the game, and if you pay to skip it, you're skipping part of the game.
For example, in EQ there was a boat ride in the original game way before fixes and expansions, that took way over 20 minutes REAL TIME.
You sat on the boat. That's ALL you did. Well, you chatted with other players, but that's it.
I'm not saying that was a good feature or reasonable, but look what it did. It made the world seem HUGE! It made travel from one continent to another seem epic.
And what if you didn't bind and got killed? Another boat ride, which made binding VERY important.
And if you saw other races on a different continent, you KNEW they had made the boat ride too.
Now, what if you could pay a nickel or a quarter and skip the boat ride?
Would that fundamentally change the game? I think it would. And that is what I mean by "skipping content".
I mean paying money to fundamentally change the rules of the game.
What is content to you? Just quests? Just Mobs? Just phat lewt? For me, it is the entirety of what makes up the game.
here's what I think would NOT be skipping content. EVERYONE pays a nickel to go from one continent to another, no exceptions. You got no nickel, you don't leave the continent.
OR, EVERYONE rides the boat, no exceptions, doesn't matter if you have a nickel or 100 bucks, you can't skip the content with money.
I also accept that some people don't like minorities, and completely understand that most of them don't even need a reason why.
~ Yes it's the same thing if you need to ask. People hate RMT either "just because" or "because it's bad for the rest of us" with no solid proof. Same argument in both boats.
The reasoning behind not wanting to play an RMT is sound. I don't want my video games to be about who wants to spend the most money to get ahead. Sure time and money are similar, but I'd rather have time be the payment, then somebody with a lot of disposable income shooting past everyone after playing the game for one day.
I also accept that some people don't like minorities, and completely understand that most of them don't even need a reason why.
~ Yes it's the same thing if you need to ask. People hate RMT either "just because" or "because it's bad for the rest of us" with no solid proof. Same argument in both boats.
The reasoning behind not wanting to play an RMT is sound. I don't want my video games to be about who wants to spend the most money to get ahead. Sure time and money are similar, but I'd rather have time be the payment, then somebody with a lot of disposable income shooting past everyone after playing the game for one day.
You'd rather have someone with a lot of disposable *time* shooting past everyone?
You'd rather have someone with a lot of disposable *time* shooting past everyone?
At least they're getting ahead by actually playing the game.
You'd rather have someone with a lot of disposable *time* shooting past everyone?
At least they're getting ahead by actually playing the game.
not to mention, I will eventually catch him up, since the content is the same for both of us, but he is getting it faster. his call, doesnt affect me at all...
now a RMT buyer will reach peaks that I will NEVER reach, due to the inherent advantages that most cash shop items provide. In many cases i could very well play the game more than him, better than him, and still be outclassed by his wallet-made char.
how can anyone sane defend that is beyond me.
I agree with Clint.
"" Voice acting isn't an RPG element....it's just a production value." - grumpymel2
You'd rather have someone with a lot of disposable *time* shooting past everyone?
At least they're getting ahead by actually playing the game.
So are those who use the cash shop. That IS part of the game.
You'd rather have someone with a lot of disposable *time* shooting past everyone?
At least they're getting ahead by actually playing the game.
not to mention, I will eventually catch him up, since the content is the same for both of us, but he is getting it faster. his call, doesnt affect me at all...
now a RMT buyer will reach peaks that I will NEVER reach, due to the inherent advantages that most cash shop items provide. In many cases i could very well play the game more than him, better than him, and still be outclassed by his wallet-made char.
how can anyone sane defend that is beyond me.
The cash shop is also available to you. Its your choice not to use it. Those who have endless time to dump into the game, are in the same position. I value my time more than my money. I have no problem supporting games that I enjoy. If thats through cash shops, then so be it.
Actually my choice is to stay 1000 miles away from that kind of games
To each their own <shrug>
You'd rather have someone with a lot of disposable *time* shooting past everyone?
At least they're getting ahead by actually playing the game.
not to mention, I will eventually catch him up, since the content is the same for both of us, but he is getting it faster. his call, doesnt affect me at all...
now a RMT buyer will reach peaks that I will NEVER reach, due to the inherent advantages that most cash shop items provide. In many cases i could very well play the game more than him, better than him, and still be outclassed by his wallet-made char.
how can anyone sane defend that is beyond me.
Which games exactly have these cash shops that lets you reach peaks you will never be able to reach if you don't use it? I don't know of any cash shop games that offer such enormous advantages.
Im just an old fart but really cant see the point of paying extra so you dont have to play the game that you pay for. Its kinda like paying someone to eat your birthday cake for you.