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Item Malls are never good for any game, are they?

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  • WraithoneWraithone Member RarePosts: 3,806
    Originally posted by grandpagamer

    Originally posted by arcdevil


     Actually my choice is to stay 1000 miles away from that kind of games

    Im just an old fart but really cant see the point of paying extra so you dont have to play the game that you pay for.  Its kinda like paying someone to eat your birthday cake for you.

     

    Depends on how its set up.  Look at DDO for example. You get access to more content, and better builds if you suport the company.  As I said, to each their own.

    "If you can't kill it, don't make it mad."
  • BetaguyBetaguy Member UncommonPosts: 2,629
    Originally posted by Oblivi0n


    When exactly do Item Malls become good for a game?  Especially a subscription based game.  
    Even if they are cosmetic items, shouldn't these be available to everyone?  I mean it's just pure greed, I don't understand how anyone thinks they are a good idea.  I can understand if you have some disposable income why you might like a vanity pet or something, but then, the item itself becomes somewhat worthless doesn't it?  If anyone can just toss a few bucks to get it?
    If they aren't cosmetic, the problem becomes more obvious.  The game then becomes who is willing to spend the most money to be the most competitive, but I don't understand why you would even play the game to begin with if you're just buying victories?  Doesn't that practically defeat the purpose of playing an MMO?  It's like paying for a game over screen, or an IWin button. 
    I don't understand anyone who supports an item mall, someone help me understand.



     

    I work hard for a living I should be able to buy cosmetic items to make my toon stand out amongst the rest if that option is available.  It is available to everyone, not my business to tell you how you spend you few trival dollars.

    [Mod Edit]

    "The King and the Pawn return to the same box at the end of the game"

  • CidinhoCidinho Member Posts: 4

    What? OP came, showed his point and provided arguments. You are the one who said "it's my damn business" and sounded like a crybaby. Your "it's my business if I have no skills at all playing the game and have to pay the game's owners to be good" is an excellent argument.

    Sincerely,
    Cidinho

  • ferlanferlan Member Posts: 4

    item malls take away the need to actually play the game. Why play and work at your character when you can buy him.

  • BetaguyBetaguy Member UncommonPosts: 2,629
    Originally posted by ferlan


    item malls take away the need to actually play the game. Why play and work at your character when you can buy him.



     

    The way I look at it is, skill + awesomepurchasedswordofdoom = unstoppable.  If you want a chance at competing with ppl like us, that choose to take the game to another level of excitement, then you too will need the purchasedswordofdoom.  So go buy it or die by thee sword.

    "The King and the Pawn return to the same box at the end of the game"

  • s1th80s1th80 Member Posts: 10
    Why not? If you don't like an item mall don't play those games. Or of course come crying here that other people don't play fair according to your rules.
  • WraithoneWraithone Member RarePosts: 3,806
    Originally posted by Cidinho


    What? OP came, showed his point and provided arguments. You are the one who said "it's my damn business" and sounded like a crybaby. Your "it's my business if I have no skills at all playing the game and have to pay the game's owners to be good" is an excellent argument.

     

    I've provided my arguments. Its not my problem if others make different choices...<shrug>  Money, time pick one or both. Its your choice.

    "If you can't kill it, don't make it mad."
  • WraithoneWraithone Member RarePosts: 3,806
    Originally posted by ferlan


    item malls take away the need to actually play the game. Why play and work at your character when you can buy him.

     

    Not from my experience they don't. Sorry if thats how its turned out from yours.  Item shops if done right enhance the game for those who support those who created the game.  They don't play the game for you.

    "If you can't kill it, don't make it mad."
  • s1th80s1th80 Member Posts: 10
    I don't think there are a lot of item malls where you can buy a max-level character fully decked with top stuff but maybe i missed those games 8)
  • LoktofeitLoktofeit Member RarePosts: 14,247
    Originally posted by grandpagamer

    Originally posted by arcdevil


     Actually my choice is to stay 1000 miles away from that kind of games

    Im just an old fart but really cant see the point of paying extra so you dont have to play the game that you pay for.  Its kinda like paying someone to eat your birthday cake for you.

     

    Honestly, you'll remain baffled by all of this as long as you keep creating a false premise to argue against. I know that pointing that out will never stop you, Ihmo, Obliv and the rest from doing it but one can always hope for miracles.

    There isn't a "right" or "wrong" way to play, if you want to use a screwdriver to put nails into wood, have at it, simply don't complain when the guy next to you with the hammer is doing it much better and easier. - Allein
    "Graphics are often supplied by Engines that (some) MMORPG's are built in" - Spuffyre

  • LoktofeitLoktofeit Member RarePosts: 14,247
    Originally posted by ferlan


    item malls take away the need to actually play the game. Why play and work at your character when you can buy him.

     

    Can you give examples of the games you are referring to? I regularly play F2P games and I have yet to see such a feature. If they were in any, I completely missed it.

    You guys latch onto these talking points and just repeat them over and over without ever questioning if there is any basis to them at all.

     

     

     

    There isn't a "right" or "wrong" way to play, if you want to use a screwdriver to put nails into wood, have at it, simply don't complain when the guy next to you with the hammer is doing it much better and easier. - Allein
    "Graphics are often supplied by Engines that (some) MMORPG's are built in" - Spuffyre

  • grandpagamergrandpagamer Member Posts: 2,221

    From what im seeing here the designers are getting just what the want. Joe buys this stuff so Fred has to buy it also to keep up. Pretty soon everyone is seeing who can outspend who and the company reaps the benefits.  Just my opinion but seems to me the companies have thought this out quite well. After seeing people preorder on a hope and shelling out for lifetime subs before the game is even released, this was inevitable. Im not the sharpest pencil in the cup but I do not see how this can be good for the hobby.

  • grandpagamergrandpagamer Member Posts: 2,221
    Originally posted by Loktofeit

    Originally posted by grandpagamer

    Originally posted by arcdevil


     Actually my choice is to stay 1000 miles away from that kind of games

    Im just an old fart but really cant see the point of paying extra so you dont have to play the game that you pay for.  Its kinda like paying someone to eat your birthday cake for you.

     

    Honestly, you'll remain baffled by all of this as long as you keep creating a false premise to argue against. I know that pointing that out will never stop you, Ihmo, Obliv and the rest from doing it but one can always hope for miracles.

    How is the premise false? Have you never heard or read rather that people spend money because they dont have time to play the game? Reading is a great tool perhaps you should try it.

  • shepx22shepx22 Member Posts: 133
    Im definately not digging through all these posts, but Item malls are infact good for certain games.

    Look at DDO. Best game to implement an Item mall changing from Subscription based and this game is flourishing better then ever, and still growing.

    So to the OP: You're wrong. Item malls are good if done right.
  • LoktofeitLoktofeit Member RarePosts: 14,247
    Originally posted by grandpagamer


    From what im seeing here the designers are getting just what the want. Joe buys this stuff so Fred has to buy it also to keep up.
    Which we know is false, since only 10-15% of the people spend money in an F2P
     
    Pretty soon everyone is seeing who can outspend who and the company reaps the benefits. 
    Again, completely baseless and a strange contention since it has been common knowledge that a small percentage actually buys anything.
     
    Just my opinion but seems to me the companies have thought this out quite well.
    I don't think you are understanding how and why this business model works.
     
    After seeing people preorder on a hope and shelling out for lifetime subs before the game is even released, this was inevitable. Im not the sharpest pencil in the cup but I do not see how this can be good for the hobby.
    Grandpa, in my opinion, you are plenty sharp. It's one of the reasons why it surprises me that you buy into the myths and misinformation despite all the information and facts that are available about how item malls work.
     
    Here's a video interview of Joshua Hong from K2 Networks (Sword of the New World, Red Stone, GoGo Racer) where he does a good job of explaining how free to play works and how the business models differ:
    Joshua Hong of K2 Networks on GigaOM
     
    I really feel that video may clear up some misconceptions as well as provide a reasonable amount of facts that dispel some of the myths.

     

    There isn't a "right" or "wrong" way to play, if you want to use a screwdriver to put nails into wood, have at it, simply don't complain when the guy next to you with the hammer is doing it much better and easier. - Allein
    "Graphics are often supplied by Engines that (some) MMORPG's are built in" - Spuffyre

  • GameloadingGameloading Member UncommonPosts: 14,182
    Originally posted by grandpagamer

    Originally posted by Loktofeit

    Originally posted by grandpagamer

    Originally posted by arcdevil


     Actually my choice is to stay 1000 miles away from that kind of games

    Im just an old fart but really cant see the point of paying extra so you dont have to play the game that you pay for.  Its kinda like paying someone to eat your birthday cake for you.

     

    Honestly, you'll remain baffled by all of this as long as you keep creating a false premise to argue against. I know that pointing that out will never stop you, Ihmo, Obliv and the rest from doing it but one can always hope for miracles.

    How is the premise false? Have you never heard or read rather that people spend money because they dont have time to play the game? Reading is a great tool perhaps you should try it.

    No I have never heard of games where you can buy your way up so you don't have to play them.

    Which games are these?

  • patch2385patch2385 Member Posts: 3

    I have to agree to some extent. In any game that is puchased on download or from store, or a game that is pay to play any item mal will devalue the subscription or initial payment. My main objection to it all is that players don't have to play the game to get the best kit. They can advance their character by equiping armour weapons ect. that will help level them quicker than regular players. I do believe this in itself contradicts RP, in the sense your character just "magically" gets these items because some "God" gives it to them. It doesn't fit with any stories and doesn't work, also it becomes unfair on those players who wish to play the game and are unable or unwilling to pay more into the game.

  • KyleranKyleran Member LegendaryPosts: 43,975
    Originally posted by Gameloading

    Originally posted by grandpagamer

    Originally posted by Loktofeit

    Originally posted by grandpagamer

    Originally posted by arcdevil


     Actually my choice is to stay 1000 miles away from that kind of games

    Im just an old fart but really cant see the point of paying extra so you dont have to play the game that you pay for.  Its kinda like paying someone to eat your birthday cake for you.

     

    Honestly, you'll remain baffled by all of this as long as you keep creating a false premise to argue against. I know that pointing that out will never stop you, Ihmo, Obliv and the rest from doing it but one can always hope for miracles.

    How is the premise false? Have you never heard or read rather that people spend money because they dont have time to play the game? Reading is a great tool perhaps you should try it.

    No I have never heard of games where you can buy your way up so you don't have to play them.

    Which games are these?

    Well, EVE actually, you can sell GTC's for in game ISK, then use the ISK to purchase someone else's character and be ready to go without out ever actually playing.  (but you'll suck, but that's a different story)

    And as for games significantly impacted by the cash shop, I offer Runes of Magic, PVP server as an example, (see my post about 6 pages back for the details).

    Cash shops can impart significant advantages that really unbalance the playing field in a PVP game.  I'm not saying they all do, but as someone else mentioned earlier, cash shops done right (and not in P2P games) can be fine, but they must be employed carefully.

     

    "True friends stab you in the front." | Oscar Wilde 

    "I need to finish" - Christian Wolff: The Accountant

    Just trying to live long enough to play a new, released MMORPG, playing New Worlds atm

    Fools find no pleasure in understanding but delight in airing their own opinions. Pvbs 18:2, NIV

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  • grandpagamergrandpagamer Member Posts: 2,221
    Originally posted by Gameloading

    Originally posted by grandpagamer

    Originally posted by Loktofeit

    Originally posted by grandpagamer

    Originally posted by arcdevil


     Actually my choice is to stay 1000 miles away from that kind of games

    Im just an old fart but really cant see the point of paying extra so you dont have to play the game that you pay for.  Its kinda like paying someone to eat your birthday cake for you.

     

    Honestly, you'll remain baffled by all of this as long as you keep creating a false premise to argue against. I know that pointing that out will never stop you, Ihmo, Obliv and the rest from doing it but one can always hope for miracles.

    How is the premise false? Have you never heard or read rather that people spend money because they dont have time to play the game? Reading is a great tool perhaps you should try it.

    No I have never heard of games where you can buy your way up so you don't have to play them.

    Which games are these?

     Perhaps ask those that post about buying because they dont have time to play the game.  Funny how those posts get overlooked in the rush to defend what is nothing more than cheating.  Amazing how being the best at any cost is so prevalent in the gaming community. Speaks volumes to those who listen.

  • LoktofeitLoktofeit Member RarePosts: 14,247
    Originally posted by Kyleran



    And as for games significantly impacted by the cash shop, I offer Runes of Magic, PVP server as an example, (see my post about 6 pages back for the details).
    Cash shops can impart significant advantages that really unbalance the playing field in a PVP game.  I'm not saying they all do, but as someone else mentioned earlier, cash shops done right (and not in P2P games) can be fine, but they must be employed carefully.
     

     

    I'd say you are partially correct, and here's why:

    Cash shops can sometimes impart significant advantages that really unbalance the playing field in a PVP game. It all depends on the game. Runes of Magic, Atlantica Online and War Rock are three that are very well known for exactly what you describe. The majority, however simply do not offer this IWIN button that everyone uses as their argument against item malls.

    And, again, that would only be in PvP. If you're not in PvP then it doesn't make a difference if the other guy is weilding Thor's Hammer and riding on the shoulders of Zeus.

     

    There isn't a "right" or "wrong" way to play, if you want to use a screwdriver to put nails into wood, have at it, simply don't complain when the guy next to you with the hammer is doing it much better and easier. - Allein
    "Graphics are often supplied by Engines that (some) MMORPG's are built in" - Spuffyre

  • IhmoteppIhmotepp Member Posts: 14,495
    Originally posted by Loktofeit

    Originally posted by grandpagamer

    Originally posted by arcdevil


     Actually my choice is to stay 1000 miles away from that kind of games

    Im just an old fart but really cant see the point of paying extra so you dont have to play the game that you pay for.  Its kinda like paying someone to eat your birthday cake for you.

     

    Honestly, you'll remain baffled by all of this as long as you keep creating a false premise to argue against. I know that pointing that out will never stop you, Ihmo, Obliv and the rest from doing it but one can always hope for miracles.

     

    I think what you are missing is that enjoying a game is subjective.

    You are trying to argue that Pistachio ice cream is OBJECTIVELY better than Rocky Road, which is of course silly.

    Skill games aren't objectively better than class games. FFA PvP isn't an objectively better design than PvE games.

    F2P isn't OBJECTIVELY any better than P2P, than Rock Music is OBJECTIVELY better than Country music.

    I watched the video. It was interesting and informative.

    you seem to think I don't get it.

    I get it just fine. I dont' like it.

    You can't argue me into feeling something is fair, any more than I can argue you into feeling it's unfair.

    How could it be unfair to play a F2P game since no one FORCES you to play? If you are playing the game, you are agreeing to those rules. If you don't like the rules, you don't play, which is what I do. I don't play because I dont' like the rules.

    I think you are not understanding grandpagamer's statments, which is why you are trying to argue against them.

    You're arguing about semantics, while he's telling you how he feels about the game.

    Are you paying to skip the game with microtransactions?

    Grandpagamer feels that you are, and so do I.

    You feel that you are not.

    We're all right.

    Just as if you said Country music is the best to listen to, and I said Rock Music is the best. We'd both be right.

    So, you're right. Microtransactions are not skipping the game. For you.

    For me, they are, because  they lessen my enjoyment of the game.

    Are you going to argue that I should enjoy something because you do?

     

     

    image

  • IhmoteppIhmotepp Member Posts: 14,495
    Originally posted by Loktofeit

    Originally posted by Kyleran



    And as for games significantly impacted by the cash shop, I offer Runes of Magic, PVP server as an example, (see my post about 6 pages back for the details).
    Cash shops can impart significant advantages that really unbalance the playing field in a PVP game.  I'm not saying they all do, but as someone else mentioned earlier, cash shops done right (and not in P2P games) can be fine, but they must be employed carefully.
     

     

    I'd say you are partially correct, and here's why:

    Cash shops can sometimes impart significant advantages that really unbalance the playing field in a PVP game. It all depends on the game. Runes of Magic, Atlantica Online and War Rock are three that are very well known for exactly what you describe. The majority, however simply do not offer this IWIN button that everyone uses as their argument against item malls.

    And, again, that would only be in PvP. If you're not in PvP then it doesn't make a difference if the other guy is weilding Thor's Hammer and riding on the shoulders of Zeus.

     

     

    Why would it not matter if you enjoy the game less?

    Are you going to tell people, you're wrong not to enjoy that game!

    Either they enjoy playing or they don't right?

    And some people are not going to enjoy the game if the other guy bought Thor's hammer, or bought his way to Thor's hammer quicker with health potions he bought with micro transactions right?

    I mean, I know that's right because I'll tell you right now I wouldnt' enjoy that game.

    Am I wrong because I don't enjoy the same sort of game you do?

    What you really mean, is it doesn't make a difference TO YOU.

    But you really can't speak for everyone playing a game, and whether or not something makes a difference to them.

     

    image

  • arcdevilarcdevil Member Posts: 864
    Originally posted by Loktofeit

    Originally posted by Kyleran



    And as for games significantly impacted by the cash shop, I offer Runes of Magic, PVP server as an example, (see my post about 6 pages back for the details).
    Cash shops can impart significant advantages that really unbalance the playing field in a PVP game.  I'm not saying they all do, but as someone else mentioned earlier, cash shops done right (and not in P2P games) can be fine, but they must be employed carefully.
     

     

    I'd say you are partially correct, and here's why:

    Cash shops can sometimes impart significant advantages that really unbalance the playing field in a PVP game. It all depends on the game. Runes of Magic, Atlantica Online and War Rock are three that are very well known for exactly what you describe. The majority, however simply do not offer this IWIN button that everyone uses as their argument against item malls.

    And, again, that would only be in PvP. If you're not in PvP then it doesn't make a difference if the other guy is weilding Thor's Hammer and riding on the shoulders of Zeus.

     

    the majority DO,  since the majority are asian, and asians are well known for creating and raising to the category of MUST DO the worst idea ever, "enchant or break"

     

    most asian F2P games work under this basis

    - since they are fast food games, they lack itemization teams, so they release only a handful (10-15) weapon sets for all classes

    - since such a lack of variety can be gamebreaking but they dont want to spend a single more cent creating models (fast food game,remember?), they came up with the idea of  "+1"  with a certain % fail rate

    - a common perk is that an item which fails to upgrade breaks

    - anther common perk of their cash shops are paid items that will prevent the item from breaking, or increase the odds of succeeding by an incredible amount.

     

     

    I have played dozens of asian F2P MMOs back when i was a teen without a job, and they ALL had this.

    Your average kid couldnt upgrade the "basic" sword because losing it was too much of a risk.

    The fat wallet guys would run in +10 gear onehitting and being basically raid bosses themselves, because money gave them unlimited tries to get uber pwnzor gear.

     

     

    worst part is, majority of this last wave european and american F2P games are following this policy, since it was proved a winner time after time in terms of cash shop revenue.

  • LoktofeitLoktofeit Member RarePosts: 14,247
    Originally posted by arcdevil


    the majority DO,  since the majority are asian, and asians are well known for creating and raising to the category of MUST DO the worst idea ever, "enchant or break"
    most asian F2P games work under this basis
    And most of the NA/EU ports do not. Those are pretty much what we are discussing here, correct? After all, if we are discussing the versions of the games that the majority of us will never actually play that's kind of pointless.
     
    worst part is, majority of this last wave european and american F2P games are following this policy, since it was proved a winner time after time in terms of cash shop revenue.
    Can you give examples of some of the MMOs in this 'last wave' you are referring to?

     

    There isn't a "right" or "wrong" way to play, if you want to use a screwdriver to put nails into wood, have at it, simply don't complain when the guy next to you with the hammer is doing it much better and easier. - Allein
    "Graphics are often supplied by Engines that (some) MMORPG's are built in" - Spuffyre

  • arcdevilarcdevil Member Posts: 864
    Originally posted by Loktofeit
    And most of the NA/EU ports do not. Those are pretty much what we are discussing here, correct? After all, if we are discussing the versions of the games that the majority of us will never actually play that's kind of pointless.

    Can you give examples of some of the MMOs in this 'last wave' you are referring to?

    1) absolutly incorrect. NA/Eu ports are exactly the same game. hell, even the cash shops are exactly the same as the asian versions', only change the currency and adjust the prices to fit NA/EU enocomy (in other words, more expensive).

    western companies that distribute the western versions of those games:

    a. do not have their own developmnet team

    b. in most cases they dont even have the source code, they arent allowed to change a comma

    c. They just translate into english the UI dialogs and quests,and more often than not its simply hilarious engrish.

     

    so when i talk about asian f2p games, I talk about nearly all f2p games. it doesnt matter that they hosting company is an american one here, the game is asian , the cash shop is asian, the underlying concepts are asian, and will always be.

    2) runes of magic , 4story, allods 

     

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