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Star Wars: The Old Republic: Some Concerns about The Old Republic
Stradden
Managing EditorMember CommonPosts: 6,696
MMORPG.com's resident Star Wars aficionado Michael Bitton writes this article expressing some of the concerns that he, as a major Star Wars geek, has about the upcoming Bioware MMO.
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Will it resemble Star Wars?
For me, games like Star Wars: The Force Unleashed are absolute blasphemy. If you enjoyed that game, most of what I’ll be saying here might very well go over your head. The mantra throughout the game’s development was “kicking ass with The Force.” Each and every time I read this rattled off in an interview or heard it in a video, I could only react by shaking my head or facepalming. Watching the main character yank a Star Destroyer out of the sky using The Force really sealed the deal for me never wanting to touch the game.
Cheers,
Jon Wood
Managing Editor
MMORPG.com
Comments
I feel your pain since I am also "that guy" when it comes to SW. To be honest, though I will of course play TOR, I'd really rather SW mmo's not get made at all, because developers have proven to be incapable of respecting an IP's established canon when making an mmo.
This doesn't just apply to SWG (although that game is bar none the finest example of canon-raping in the history of gaming), but to all licensed games. WAR, STO, LotRo and AoC are all complete hack jobs when it comes to accurately portraying the worlds they are based on. Bioware's pedigree and talent notwithstanding, it will be a miracle if TOR doesn't follow suit.
There is something about being a developer that makes you go "hmmm, yeah this was cool in the movies/books/comics, but it will never work in a game." I don't understand this mentality, as obviously the whole reason to make an IP-based game is to sell units to people who, you know, like that IP, but you apparently can't be a game developer without subscribing to it.
As an aside, it's good to know I'm not the only SW fan who abhorred TFU. Seeing as how it was designed by SWG/NGE alums Julio Torres and Haden Blackman, is it any wonder that it was full of revisionist SW history and over-the-top nonsense?
Good article.
/salute
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You have some awesome points, but at the end of the day Bioware have shown what they can do with a Star Wars universe and make it their own. And Kotor really got me into those typical RPG'S and so i fell in love with mass effect ect ect.
So i trust their opinions and i hope it works for them. The whole class part of your article is spot on too many force classes and im still stuck on what to choose but maybe it was for the best spread the powers out so the characters are not over powerful and same goes for weapons maybe.
And armour Kotor Malek looked liked darth vader without his helmet but with red armour. And so did revan and these characters came before Darth Vader in the time line. So Vader is actually taking the style from them. And not just that Vader was mostly robotic and the characters/armour we have seen so far are not. So who knows. At the end of the day i trust bioware. They have shown us what they can do. And im up for it.
It looks like every decision Bioware has made regarding classes, art-style, and timeline is a push toward attracting the casual SW fan. The people who want to see what is familiar and 'iconic" to them about Star Wars. I'm afraid this game is not looking to appease the hardcore, and frankly, with the numbers of players a MMO must maintain, it is completely expected for them to go this route. Sorry for you but it does make sense money-wise.
I agree with some of your ideas and disagree with others.
At this point i want to to see the glass half full instead of half empty. Its fairly easy to complain about a lot of what is being done, but just as you said we don't have info to build ourself a good idea of how the game will turn to.
So far Bioware hasn't lets us down with any of their games so i have faith in them.
Quote:
For example, if we’ve got a group of players with overlapping classes and some players at different parts of their storyline than others, how do we proceed with regards to spoilers? And whose quest lines do we even choose to go on to begin with? Everyone in the group is likely going to want to proceed with their own storyline, and all the jumping back and forth between group members’ differing plot points is sure to be confusing. I think that even if they figure this out, many of us will simply opt out of grouping for wanting to experience the storylines on our own with our other characters.
- End Quote -
Have you ever played Lord of the Rings online?
Lotro has a very good system in which they combine story a traditional questing progression. I think that lotro pretty much answers your fear about how will players will be able to combine their story experience even if they are at different stages.
If you guys think about story in this game there is nothing to be alarmed. If the game is an MMO and considering Biowares RPG history we will see a questing progression game where the story quests will be a very important part in that progression.
I prefer logic over brutal assumptions. As such I am not that guy. I am however, a huge Star Wars fan... my attempt to prove this would only anger people, so I digress.
I agree with the road they took of the four force users. This is something I predicted very early and I am very happy with. Also reading through the info revolving around this story (including the recent references made by Obi-wan in the Clone Wars series) I am actually quite pleased with how they are, in general, handling this game.
I disagree that JC will get boxed into healing, and I am even more sure with this after recent play changes I have seen. Further more the JK and JC classes are so drastically different I don't think there would have been a reasonable way to combine their stories and then branched them off as specializations, I also believe that their current structure will allows them to add in more force wielding classes in the future, including non-jedi. Such as the Jal Shey and Krath cult members. I also think they are planning long term, not short term. BioWare tends to think ahead with their games, and I think they realize how they must release content over the years to keep up with the players.
This isn't to say I don't have concerns, I do. But my concerns are quite a bit more in-depth then your worries about the style of building looking to much like the movies. And I believe in that regard, your worry is misplaced.
Its true tho, for some reason the only way to have a MMO is to have a Tank, some DPS and a healer. I stopped caring about STO when they started talking about people rolls. its the same with ToR.
I had the best Star Wars experience in SWG, before Jedi was even in the game. I was able to make a toon and live in the Star Wars universe. if I picked up a gun, I became better at guns. if I punched something, I became better at that. Heck I didn't even need to fight to progress i the game.
Classes worked in WoW and they should stay there.
Exactly...
In fact most hardcore SW geeks will still play SWTOR...Sure they may whine and moan a bit, but in the end it's a SW Game and they'll play...
I noticed an informal Poll on the STO Forums that simply asked "Would you play this Game if it was not a Star Trek Game?" The response was overwhelmingly...No...Last I counted it was about 70%, maybe more No's...That kinda says it all to me...The Folks like the author of this Article who would actually be bothered enough to stay away in time are SO few and far between they are certainly NOT the target demo...Not even close...
BioWare will not suffer opinions like the one's in that article whatsoever...And who knows, TOR may very well be FAR more iconic than even the nerdiest of nerds can imagine...We'll all see next year I guess...
I agree with several points made in the article, such as the difficulties of combining story with group play, the effect that spoilers could have on the experience and that it needs to be star warsy.
Don't agree with other points made though, I'm not that guy however.
* 4 force users: I was also not very fond of this idea at first, but it kind of makes sense: they know people are going to roll Jedi/Sith en masse, so it's kind of smart to spread them out into a couple of classes instead of 1 on each side.
I also believe the story will be distinctly different between them, as for example, the Inquisitor starts out as a lowly slave who has to work up his way in Sith society and the Warrior starts as an arrogant bigshot "true Sith".
*Consular / Inquisitor = Healer / Nuker From the various hands-on experiences (on this site as well), we know that it will be more effective to play an Inquisitor combining both melee and ranged attacks, than just picking one.
It's been said by BW that they don't intend to really go with the classic trinity either, although there will be similarities.
Lastly, classes will be able to specialise: the Inquisitor can specialise into a more melee oriented character for example (based off Darth Maul).
*Double Bladed sabers Inquisitors / Consulars can use single blades, Warriors / Knights can also use double bladed sabers (artwork for double bladed sabers on the Knight / Warrior page).
Keep in mind the Jedi in this era are constantly facing Sith, so other types of lightsabers would be more common.
*Technology: Honestly, I'm really not bugged by the similarities, it's clear why they did it: they want some ties with the movies for those people who didn't have a go at the Kotor series.
The art still seems to have enough of a Kotor feel to it though.
If you're really "that guy", you'd also notice some of the EU references the movie era basing a lot of designs off of the era the game takes place in (it's the other way around in reality ofc).
Feel free to use my referral link for SW:TOR if you want to test out the game. You'll get some special unlocks!
Exactly...
In fact most hardcore SW geeks will still play SWTOR...Sure they may whine and moan a bit, but in the end it's a SW Game and they'll play...
I noticed an informal Poll on the STO Forums that simply asked "Would you play this Game if it was not a Star Trek Game?" The response was overwhelmingly...No...Last I counted it was about 70%, maybe more No's...That kinda says it all to me...The Folks like the author of this Article who would actually be bothered enough to stay away in time are SO few and far between they are certainly NOT the target demo...Not even close...
BioWare will not suffer opinions like the one's in that article whatsoever...And who knows, TOR may very well be FAR more iconic than even the nerdiest of nerds can imagine...We'll all see next year I guess...
I have played a lot of MMOs, I wouldn't consider myself in the op of the Hardcore (although does 60+ MMO game play hours per week count for anything?). But I have played in pre-CU SWG and in NGE. The main thing that I look for in any game is storyline. A good story is the most important part. MMOs have a tendency of writing half baked stories. SWG really didn't have any, it played well for "A Day in the Life of Star Wars" as an online sim in pre-CU, but really had no kick. You sort of had to make up what you wanted to do, which lends well to the absolute sandbox. And while I don't want to be lead around by my hand, I do want a compelling story, with compelling choices, and great RP. These personal decision and choices are something that PnP has done well, but not MMOs.
Now in regards to STO, I was a little disappointed at first with story (I am now Cp8), I have to say that it has gotten really interesting. The developments are well done, but it still lacks a bit of choice. This is something new that TOR aims for, a new way to play. Not simply combat, not simply saying Tank, DPS, Healer... no. It wants players involvement, player decisions, player driven (but story guided) gameplay. This is something that other MMOs have attempted in small scale, but TOR will be the first to take it on in large scale. It's not a harcore vs casual thing, its supposed to be a new way of looking at the game entirely. And as such we should view it from a different perspective then the games that have come before, and not judge it by the same standards. We should engage it by an attempt to make the game more immersive, something new; and if it works, something wonderful.
I think what most of the SW Fanboys lose perspective about is that most of the decisions can easily be explained or manipulate the lore to validate the decisions. Since the level of recognition of using a double-balded lightsaber for all force classes, or a nearly identical speeder, or even the almost exact match to Boba Fett BH armor is more important in that the masses will be able to associate w/ the game. On a larger scale which supersedes all the fanboys that can nitpick and whine about minute and unimportant details. Like who the Smuggler shown is in identical garments to that of Han Solo.
The fanboy sees it and says hey!! This happened thousands of years BBY??!?! Shenanigans!
While someone that just likes it thinks Hey cool. Hes like Han Solo. I wanna be like Han Solo
Perspective is key.
Is it important that a story, vastly unfamiliar w/ most casual Star Wars fans be so unique and diverse in the SW universe, that every die hard Wookiepidia contributor can acknowledge that its perfect? Or, is it more important, that the 9-5, I love Star Wars. I always watch it on Spike dad of 3 who really only knows the movies, recognizes the general look, and has to mostly just learn where the story comes from, instead of practically a whole new IP?
While your concerns seem overly silly and on the verge of neurotic to me, there yours to have. But, I think when you have more perspective about the goals of EA & Bioware on the whole, it makes a metric shit ton more sense and I, as another that guy am completely forgiving of small, insignificant creative freedoms.
I'd like for someone to expand on that, as it's the exact type of attitude that most developers share, hence games that butcher canon.
Why must sacrifices be made, and which sacrifices?
I understand the need to cater to the widest possible audience (casuals), but if you define a casual fan as someone who is only peripherally interested in Star Wars, it stands to reason that they will happily accept whatever is given to them provided it has a lightsaber attached.
If that is the case, why can't the game (and I'm talking lore as well as mechanics) adhere to what has been previously established throughout the IP? I'm not saying that Bioware isn't doing so, maybe they are, but past games have not and the reason given has always been 'fun gameplay is more important than canon.'
Why can't the two co-exist? What is so 'unfun' about SW canon? If it were really so 'unfun,' it probably wouldn't be a huge franchise with lots of fans, no?
Is it that mmo's are very narrowly defined by a certain set of mechanics, and bending them even slightly for canonical reasons renders the resulting game less profitable? If so, then the resulting game won't be doing anything innovative but by definition will be doing more of the same.
Again, not accusing TOR/Bioware of doing this because we don't really know yet, but I am interested in using this as an opportunity for someone to explain to me why canon and fun game play are constantly treated as mutually exclusive.
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I am also that guy. I don't go to conventions, I don't dress up as a Jedi, or, Stormtrooper and my knowledge of the EU books is limited to a few authors that I really like. Drew Karpyshyn (also a lead writer for BioWare) and Timothy Zahn being my favourites.
However, I am a HUGE Star Wars fan. I was born in 1973, so a large part of my childhood was spent playing with my Star Wars toys, or, having saber battles with my friends using wooden poles covered in red/blue/green insulating tape. Many childhood bruises were suffered at the end of those deadly weapons
I loved SWG in it's original Pre-CU form, although I was also very aware of it's failings. It is still my favourite MMO to date.
When BioWare finally revealed their big secret (*cough, cough*) I was delighted. I loved KOTOR and I also really enjoy the Darth Bane trilogy of EU books written by Drew Karpyshyn of BioWare. However, I knew that the game would be nothing like Pre-CU SWG, and I was perfectly fine with that fact.
I'm different from Michael (article writer) though in that I knew that there would be more than one Force Wielding class per faction. In fact I'm amazed that anyone who played KOTOR could think otherwise. Guardian, Sentnel and Consular were the three variations in KOTOR and they have been distilled down to Knight and Consular for SW:TOR.
You have your all powerful force wielder who isn't as handy with a blade and you have your roflstomp saber user that is a little low on force powers. It was absolutely to be expected.
As for the technology issue, the Star Wars galaxy seems to have reached a technological plateau a good few thousand years before even the original KOTOR, with very little advancement being made even up until the time of the original trilogy. I suppose once you can travel faster than light and can use energy weapons there isn't many places to go from there. Time travel perhaps, or melding organic matter with technology like those terrible 'Vong' EU characters.
To sum up, I have every faith in BioWare to create a great game that I will have many hours of fun playing, as I am a completionist. I will have to play every class through several times to see everything that the game has to offer storywise, then I'll pick a main and worry about 'endgame'.
Like I said, I have every faith in BioWare creating a great game, if it will also be a great MMO remains to be seen.
MMORPG History:
Playing - EVE Online.
Played (Retired) - AO, SWG, MxO, WoW, RFO, SoR, CoX, EQ2, GW, L2, Vanguard, LotRO, AoC, TCoS, Aion.
Favourite MMO - Pre-CU SWG, 3 Years, 4 Accounts, 2 Pre-CU Jedi (1 Pre-9).
Awaiting - Star Wars: The Old Republic, The Secret World, Earthrise.
OH look that stormtroopers boots are laced from the right and not the left!!! Foul!! That's not canon!!.... really silly article here. Nothing said even would appear on my radar.. and I am a huge Star Wars Fan.. the original trilogy is still my second favorite movie series of all time. All this wringing of hands and gnashing of teeth is ridiculous and quite frankly stupid. Here is a RADICAL proposal: One year from now, when Closed Beta and Open Beta occurs, THEN we can argue, dissect and ponder the game on its own merits.. until then.. lets actually do something productive like find new ideas that get MMOs awe from the so called "Trinity" of classes.. maybe even discussing how best to get away from the mind numbing numbers of High Fantasy Games.. lets see more diversity of game worlds for instance.. TOR will be fine.. actually probably more than fine.. I trust Bioware 1000%.. Dragon Age was ruining my life until STO launched... so lets close up this worrying thread and move on...
Only thing i can say is, i totally agree with your points ...
And would like to add one thing: Star wars is not a universe with classes.
An open development only could be realistic. Check some games as Eve, Darkfall (hope i'm not totally false with this game) ... with no character classes and totally open character development.
SWToR will be an arcade game, with gameplay totally copied on the classics mmo genre (not to say wow ... oups i said it).
Even the idea of 2 factions is totally stupid, in SW you have jedis, siths, and all the other that dont belong to one of these two factions, but one of the hundred available in the universe.
True
Though given the type of game they are making, open ended game-play and sanboxish skill systems might be a little much in terms of development costs and time. It would be great to get a "great story" along with something more open, it just doesn't seem like a feasible thing to accomplish, given the limitations put on any development studio in regard to budget and release windows.
All of that funding went into making a cinematic experience. How that will turn out is anyone's guess.
As for two factions in a way it makes sense, yes the Jedi order is a different entity than the republic. However they serve the republic, which makes sense to have them sided with them. The same goes for the Sith, though in their minds the "empire" serves them.
As far as a gray area is concerned, BH's siding with one side,doesn't really make sense, outside of the "empire" used them in the movies. Smugglers the same could be said (Han in the movies, Talon Karde (SP?) and others in the EU). Looks to me as though they were forced with a decision to align them or not, they chose to, given there were examples of them siding in the lore it's forgivable IMO.
For every minute you are angry , you lose 60 seconds of happiness."-Emerson
but... this article wasn't about that. This article was about some of the nitpicky points that Star Wars fans may have noticed. Just because the topic isn't to your personal tastes, doesn't mean that it isn't a completely valid topic.
We've had articles about the particular topics you mentioned in the past, this one was about something different so let's have some respect for that, even if it's not your cup of tea?
Cheers,
Jon Wood
Managing Editor
MMORPG.com
When I read articles such as this one and I see the "I too was upset with the whole SW:G thing..." in it, I immediately lose all respect for the opinion of the writer and discard whatever it is they are complaining about.
As a beta tester for SW:G, the game was NEVER good, and shouldn't have been released when it was. Yet so many people still dreamily refer to the post launch era as the best thing since sliced bread. Maybe if you enjoy macros and incomplete professions (classes cough) and mostly empty worlds, it was...
As far as SW:TOR goes, I'm in a wait and see mode. It looks a bit arcady, but then the 3 pre-quels are that way. But first, and foremost, it has to be FUN. If it isn't fun, gnashing teeth about the canon and lore being wrong is pointless.
I think the only 2 issues I had with th egame was the choice of "stylized-realism" look of the characters and I'm still wondering how grouping will be in this game. Like, how many can be in a group, how does it affect your storyline when grouping and how easy will it be to find groups. I'm still excited about playing the game but it is only natural for players to have concerns about their game they are wanting to play.
This is set in BioWare's Star Wars time period. They have created most if not all the lore for it, and I trust them completely. Their games have always been amazing, from KOTOR and Jade Empire up until Mass Effect 2. I'm really looking forward to this game, and I'm sure it will feel just like Star Wars does.
When I read posts that make sweeping generalizations about how SWG was never good, I immediately lose all respect for the opinion of the writer and discard whatever other points they were trying to make.
The game was never good, to you, and that's cool. A lot of people disagree, as you even note in your post (though you whiffed completely on why, no it wasn't because they enjoyed macros or incomplete professions).
The most important thing to take away from your response is the last part: it does have to be fun, but how do you define fun? For many people it isn't fun if the lore/canon aren't respected. Fun to you is probably a diarrhea sandwich to me, judging by your opinion of SWG.
The point is, there's no reason to ever disregard canon and lore, or label it pointless. If canon/lore wasn't fun to begin with, the license wouldn't have such a huge following and you could call it 'generic space opera #342251.' Star Wars isn't Star Wars without canon and lore.
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Bioware has almost complete creative control of this time period since it is based off their KOTOR game. As a result, some elements may seem familiar to Star Wars fans and some may not. However, I fully trust that Bioware is putting their usual level of polish on this game and I have no doubt that it will be extremely entertaining. They have never given me any reason to doubt them...
If there was one game I would be pre-order five years in advance it would this game, and I might even give them twice the amount as a deposit to make sure I get that Collector's Edition. I wonder if EB Games is taking pre-orders yet...
I think the mian problem 'that guy' faces is that in reality the game he would design wouldn't be fun because of the constraints of lore consistency they would insist were enforced. TORs issue will be the same as any other SWs license with multiplayer - what is fun about Star Wars for the vast majority of the mass market is wielding a lightsaber and throwing force powers around. They (and I should say 'we' because I fit in that mold) only really care about getting to re-enact our childhood joy of lightsaber duels and the like. I really don't care if it isn't 'canon' that there would be force healers, less lightsabers or whatever else the lore addicts want to insist upon.
I want a fun game where I get to be the Jedi Knight I always dreamed of being as a kid. I couldn't care less about the canon as long as the game is fun and works well as a game. It is supposed to be fun after all
When I read posts that make sweeping generalizations about how SWG was never good, I immediately lose all respect for the opinion of the writer and discard whatever other points they were trying to make.
The game was never good, to you, and that's cool. A lot of people disagree, as you even note in your post (though you whiffed completely on why, no it wasn't because they enjoyed macros or incomplete professions).
The most important thing to take away from your response is the last part: it does have to be fun, but how do you define fun? For many people it isn't fun if the lore/canon aren't respected. Fun to you is probably a diarrhea sandwich to me, judging by your opinion of SWG.
The point is, there's no reason to ever disregard canon and lore, or label it pointless. If canon/lore wasn't fun to begin with, the license wouldn't have such a huge following and you could call it 'generic space opera #342251.' Star Wars isn't Star Wars without canon and lore.
I was going to quote your post as well as a couple other SW:G pre-NGE fanboy posts here to prove my point.
But I was lazy.
Nit-picking about lore when the game isn't out yet and we don't know all the details yet is not my thing as it is pointless. It could change. It might not. It might not matter (either it proves "canon" in its own right, or the game stinks, fails, and is forgotten).
If the game comes out and is fun to play for the masses, then quibbling over lore becomes marginally more meaningful.
Now if the game was expressly being designed with the hard core lore fanatic in mind, then I COULD see where it means something, since it might be construed as false advertising. But this game is like the others Bioware has made: for as large an audience as they can get. To paraphrase an above poster's comment: "Who cares which side the stormtrooper's boots lace up?"
well there is a easy way to see how story driven effects groups
Play LoTRO, the main line Book is story driven and you can jump in and out of other peoples "chapters"