Hmm. Or, you could log into a game like Vanguard, where I have yet to run into "WoW haters" -- mainly because we're all involved in the game we're playing, instead of taking the time to rant and rave.
Or, for that matter, the bulk of the community in EQ2, for the years I played it, most people again didn't give a rats-behind about WoW and ignored those few who went into chat to rant.
Ditto LOTRO. Strangely, even the F2Ps, PWI, AIKA Online, not running into WoW hatred, barely running into "wow-mentioned".
I've encountered more "hatred" coming FROM WoW-fans than from anyone else. Kind of the like the intellectually-bankrupt statement of, to paraphrase, "no game can have a community that isn't majority-WoW-haters because I say it's that way".
doesnt have to be wow -- any #1 game will get ridiculed by people favoring the competition
Er, no. People shout "Go back to WoW" usually when some new player whines about game mechanics not being simple or easy, or too complicated for them to understand, or whine about something not being exactly like WoW.
Since WoW is the epitome of simple and easy, people say "Go back to WoW" because thats likely where the player came from. There aren't many games are the market as dumbed down as WoW.
People never said "Go back to EverQuest" when it was on the top of the market. Granted, the MMORPG industry wasn't dead then like it is now.
Er, no. People shout "Go back to WoW" usually when some new player whines about game mechanics not being simple or easy, or too complicated for them to understand, or whine about something not being exactly like WoW.
Since WoW is the epitome of simple and easy, people say "Go back to WoW" because thats likely where the player came from. There aren't many games are the market as dumbed down as WoW.
People never said "Go back to EverQuest" when it was on the top of the market. Granted, the MMORPG industry wasn't dead then like it is now.
Chess is simple enough for a child to play and complex enough that it can never be fully mastered.
Er, no. People shout "Go back to WoW" usually when some new player whines about game mechanics not being simple or easy, or too complicated for them to understand, or whine about something not being exactly like WoW.
Since WoW is the epitome of simple and easy, people say "Go back to WoW" because thats likely where the player came from. There aren't many games are the market as dumbed down as WoW.
People never said "Go back to EverQuest" when it was on the top of the market. Granted, the MMORPG industry wasn't dead then like it is now.
Chess is simple enough for a child to play and complex enough that it can never be fully mastered.
WoW is like chess in that regard.
We're not talking about the combat (even WoW's limited combat and class specialization system) we're talking about the game as a whole, how its made as simple and easy as possible, as to never dissaude anyone from unsubscribing. From the instancing, to the linear zone progression, to the generic quests marked out on your mini map, lack of any kind of death penalty, the instant travel, dungeon finder, its all made to be as simple and easy as possible with no real game mechanic depth.
And I think most people coming from old MMOs here would have to laugh at the WoW chess comparison.
it would have died within 6 months. It was terrible, it was tedious. it was horrible, it was boring. and whats even more important, it was a huge step back from DAOC, the game that provided most of their playerbase.
thanks to the "forum whiners" they reworked the game to add keeps and ORvR, because at first they never intended to do so. sadly they just did the least work possible and the game ended having tons of performance problems ,endless bugs and glitches, and terrible career balances (they balanced the game for 12v12 encounters, not for 250v250)
2) the most common post during the beta phase was "oh my god what have you done, this looks like a complete wow clone "
posted hundreds of times, but only once per person, since those who posted such were promptly banned. They didnt want negative feedback
the outcome? Mythic blowed the biggest MMO budget in history with a crap of cataclysmic dimensions and the game is rightfully about to die. and the "forum whiners" told them this 1 year before release, but they didnt want to hear.
I couldn't have said it any better !
And your RvR system "tx to us forum posters " (the blue) ...
Did it work ? .... nope.
because they listened to the WOW haters...
Better example than I ever could post really.
Cross server battlegrounds were "bad" because it was in WOW, so it couldn't be done! you can't accept an idea from WOW as a WOW hater.
Sad really.
because in the end: ... you need to have the people to have PvP.
WOW hate took over from sound logic of how to group up with people who want to have a fight... War would never had server population problems with cross server PvP tools and RvR attached to it.
OK, well then I am going to use your logic and bring it to another industry (away from gaming, our hobbies) to remove personal bias. Hopefully! With that in mind I also want to add that I am not affiliated with either company so I have nothing personal influencing my judgment. I run my own business and with that I like keeping up with the industry and I have respect for the some of the Men and Women that run it. Now with all that said, your argument is that the WOW haters made it so that Mythic did not add in cross-server quing thus hurting the game. Plus it was a mistake listening to the fan base from DAoC that wanted Keeps and Open RVR; that they should have followed the lead of their main competitor Blizzard and added in Cross-Server battlegrounds. Since Blizzard makes more money there idea naturally would have made it so Mythic would have been more successful with WAR. Now with this business principle in mind that you are saying all MMO makers should follow, let’s test it. If you are right then the best way to make money is to follow the same pattern that your competitors use and not deviate from it too far.
For our test lets use two companies that are into manufacturing and distribution of products. For our first company let’s use G.E. one of the largest publicly traded business in said industry. GE has been part of the fortune 500 for numerous years so they are a great example of success. Their product list is diverse ranging from military grade weapons to light bulbs. Their system of distribution is through Whole sale warehouses, E-commerce, to the more traditional supply chains of retail stores. They have business centers located all over the world and make billions of dollars in revenue each year. As can be seen by looking at their revenue for 2009, so like Blizzard they are a dominating force in the industry they are involved in. The second company for our test is going to be Amway, the largest privately held company in that same sector of business. Their product list ranges from Vitamins to Cosmetics and other household items. Their system of distribution is through private franchises that earn a profit for the use of all of their manufactured products and services. They have private franchises that use them as their main source of product all over the world. They make millions of dollars in profit and are completely debt free. Since they are privately held they do not report their profit, so as kind of a measure of their success. They have the largest private fleet of Jets in the world. They own multiple Yacht companies and the Orlando Magical. All of course bought with cash, since they are 100% debt free. Now that we have our companies let move on to the test to prove your theory.
Well we can see that these two companies use totally different means of accomplishing what they have achieved as businesses. So as part of the test you should write a business proposal and have either Amway or G.E. change the way they run their business to the other company’s model. Whichever one you thing is more successful the privately held or the publically traded. When this happens, everyone on this site and the rest of the world will admit you are right. Then we will all shut up and tell every MMO developer to use more and more of Blizzards designs from WOW. After all, all those haters of either G.E or Amway just need to learn that the other company is right and that they know the best way to run a business.
So with all that said do you still believe 100% in what you are preaching, if so prove it.
Er, no. People shout "Go back to WoW" usually when some new player whines about game mechanics not being simple or easy, or too complicated for them to understand, or whine about something not being exactly like WoW.
Since WoW is the epitome of simple and easy, people say "Go back to WoW" because thats likely where the player came from. There aren't many games are the market as dumbed down as WoW.
People never said "Go back to EverQuest" when it was on the top of the market. Granted, the MMORPG industry wasn't dead then like it is now.
Chess is simple enough for a child to play and complex enough that it can never be fully mastered.
WoW is like chess in that regard.
Please dont compare chess to WoW. Chess is a venerable game that has massive amounts of complexity. The classification of pieces serves to add to that complexity, not offer simplification on the board. WoW is in every respect the opposite of Chess. Show some respect. :-)
Er, no. People shout "Go back to WoW" usually when some new player whines about game mechanics not being simple or easy, or too complicated for them to understand, or whine about something not being exactly like WoW.
Since WoW is the epitome of simple and easy, people say "Go back to WoW" because thats likely where the player came from. There aren't many games are the market as dumbed down as WoW.
People never said "Go back to EverQuest" when it was on the top of the market. Granted, the MMORPG industry wasn't dead then like it is now.
Chess is simple enough for a child to play and complex enough that it can never be fully mastered.
WoW is like chess in that regard.
We're not talking about the combat (even WoW's limited combat and class specialization system) we're talking about the game as a whole, how its made as simple and easy as possible, as to never dissaude anyone from unsubscribing. From the instancing, to the linear zone progression, to the generic quests marked out on your mini map, lack of any kind of death penalty, the instant travel, dungeon finder, its all made to be as simple and easy as possible with no real game mechanic depth.
And I think most people coming from old MMOs here would have to laugh at the WoW chess comparison.
You can level a rogue from 1 to 80 in WoW by spamming your sinister strike key over and over. That's one key.
But you'll get to 80 quicker buy using all of your skills, backstab, stealth, gouge and so on.
WoW is as hard as you want it to be. Don't do green quests. Don't do yellow quest. Just do orange and red quests and it will take you five minutes to kill one mob.
WoW starts at 80.
If you don't know the end game content before hand it is hard. Don't research it on youtube or any of the dozens of strategy sites.
Do heroics on hard for a challenge. Don't allow epic armor or weapons in your guild, use blues or lower.
It's as hard as you want.
Old school MMOs weren't hard, they were tedious, like knitting a sweater.
We're not talking about the combat (even WoW's limited combat and class specialization system) we're talking about the game as a whole, how its made as simple and easy as possible, as to never dissaude anyone from unsubscribing. From the instancing, to the linear zone progression, to the generic quests marked out on your mini map, lack of any kind of death penalty, the instant travel, dungeon finder, its all made to be as simple and easy as possible with no real game mechanic depth.
I think you're confusing "bothersome" with "difficult" or at least, not recognizing the value of avoiding useless things that dissuade people from continuing to subscribe.
Death penalties that just make you sit around for example, or lenghty travel with no real content. If you can find ways to make them interesting, that's one thing, but...I'd like to hear how you're doing it.
Otherwise, I'll subscribe to the philosophy of...I'd rather see a cut scene between departure and arrival than every single moment of the trip. Either something interesting happens in the scene or it doesn't.
Probably why I stopped playing with the DM who insisted on rolling encounters for every day of a journey.
Comments
Hmm. Or, you could log into a game like Vanguard, where I have yet to run into "WoW haters" -- mainly because we're all involved in the game we're playing, instead of taking the time to rant and rave.
Or, for that matter, the bulk of the community in EQ2, for the years I played it, most people again didn't give a rats-behind about WoW and ignored those few who went into chat to rant.
Ditto LOTRO. Strangely, even the F2Ps, PWI, AIKA Online, not running into WoW hatred, barely running into "wow-mentioned".
I've encountered more "hatred" coming FROM WoW-fans than from anyone else. Kind of the like the intellectually-bankrupt statement of, to paraphrase, "no game can have a community that isn't majority-WoW-haters because I say it's that way".
Er, no. People shout "Go back to WoW" usually when some new player whines about game mechanics not being simple or easy, or too complicated for them to understand, or whine about something not being exactly like WoW.
Since WoW is the epitome of simple and easy, people say "Go back to WoW" because thats likely where the player came from. There aren't many games are the market as dumbed down as WoW.
People never said "Go back to EverQuest" when it was on the top of the market. Granted, the MMORPG industry wasn't dead then like it is now.
Chess is simple enough for a child to play and complex enough that it can never be fully mastered.
WoW is like chess in that regard.
Well shave my back and call me an elf! -- Oghren
We're not talking about the combat (even WoW's limited combat and class specialization system) we're talking about the game as a whole, how its made as simple and easy as possible, as to never dissaude anyone from unsubscribing. From the instancing, to the linear zone progression, to the generic quests marked out on your mini map, lack of any kind of death penalty, the instant travel, dungeon finder, its all made to be as simple and easy as possible with no real game mechanic depth.
And I think most people coming from old MMOs here would have to laugh at the WoW chess comparison.
OK, well then I am going to use your logic and bring it to another industry (away from gaming, our hobbies) to remove personal bias. Hopefully! With that in mind I also want to add that I am not affiliated with either company so I have nothing personal influencing my judgment. I run my own business and with that I like keeping up with the industry and I have respect for the some of the Men and Women that run it. Now with all that said, your argument is that the WOW haters made it so that Mythic did not add in cross-server quing thus hurting the game. Plus it was a mistake listening to the fan base from DAoC that wanted Keeps and Open RVR; that they should have followed the lead of their main competitor Blizzard and added in Cross-Server battlegrounds. Since Blizzard makes more money there idea naturally would have made it so Mythic would have been more successful with WAR. Now with this business principle in mind that you are saying all MMO makers should follow, let’s test it. If you are right then the best way to make money is to follow the same pattern that your competitors use and not deviate from it too far.
For our test lets use two companies that are into manufacturing and distribution of products. For our first company let’s use G.E. one of the largest publicly traded business in said industry. GE has been part of the fortune 500 for numerous years so they are a great example of success. Their product list is diverse ranging from military grade weapons to light bulbs. Their system of distribution is through Whole sale warehouses, E-commerce, to the more traditional supply chains of retail stores. They have business centers located all over the world and make billions of dollars in revenue each year. As can be seen by looking at their revenue for 2009, so like Blizzard they are a dominating force in the industry they are involved in. The second company for our test is going to be Amway, the largest privately held company in that same sector of business. Their product list ranges from Vitamins to Cosmetics and other household items. Their system of distribution is through private franchises that earn a profit for the use of all of their manufactured products and services. They have private franchises that use them as their main source of product all over the world. They make millions of dollars in profit and are completely debt free. Since they are privately held they do not report their profit, so as kind of a measure of their success. They have the largest private fleet of Jets in the world. They own multiple Yacht companies and the Orlando Magical. All of course bought with cash, since they are 100% debt free. Now that we have our companies let move on to the test to prove your theory.
Well we can see that these two companies use totally different means of accomplishing what they have achieved as businesses. So as part of the test you should write a business proposal and have either Amway or G.E. change the way they run their business to the other company’s model. Whichever one you thing is more successful the privately held or the publically traded. When this happens, everyone on this site and the rest of the world will admit you are right. Then we will all shut up and tell every MMO developer to use more and more of Blizzards designs from WOW. After all, all those haters of either G.E or Amway just need to learn that the other company is right and that they know the best way to run a business.
So with all that said do you still believe 100% in what you are preaching, if so prove it.
Please dont compare chess to WoW. Chess is a venerable game that has massive amounts of complexity. The classification of pieces serves to add to that complexity, not offer simplification on the board. WoW is in every respect the opposite of Chess. Show some respect. :-)
Laudanum - Romance. Revenge. Revolution.
Crappy, petty people breed and raise crappy, petty kids.
You can level a rogue from 1 to 80 in WoW by spamming your sinister strike key over and over. That's one key.
But you'll get to 80 quicker buy using all of your skills, backstab, stealth, gouge and so on.
WoW is as hard as you want it to be. Don't do green quests. Don't do yellow quest. Just do orange and red quests and it will take you five minutes to kill one mob.
WoW starts at 80.
If you don't know the end game content before hand it is hard. Don't research it on youtube or any of the dozens of strategy sites.
Do heroics on hard for a challenge. Don't allow epic armor or weapons in your guild, use blues or lower.
It's as hard as you want.
Old school MMOs weren't hard, they were tedious, like knitting a sweater.
Well shave my back and call me an elf! -- Oghren
I think you're confusing "bothersome" with "difficult" or at least, not recognizing the value of avoiding useless things that dissuade people from continuing to subscribe.
Death penalties that just make you sit around for example, or lenghty travel with no real content. If you can find ways to make them interesting, that's one thing, but...I'd like to hear how you're doing it.
Otherwise, I'll subscribe to the philosophy of...I'd rather see a cut scene between departure and arrival than every single moment of the trip. Either something interesting happens in the scene or it doesn't.
Probably why I stopped playing with the DM who insisted on rolling encounters for every day of a journey.