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Casual killed the MMO game
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The problem is you believe that competition and elitism is the only reason for a game to be played.
"But still, I am nostalgically fond of elements such as death penalties and forced grouping. Having to walk 30 minutes to get to another town. Challenges that felt exclusive, or elite. You'd probably never be part of them, but it was neat to know that they existed in your game somewhere."
Ok let's be honest. You can't tell me in playing FFXI that you boycotted the use of Chocobos because you wanted to ground pound back and forth for the "nostalgia". I call bullshit. And I'm sorry... that's not a "challenge", it's a time sink usually used to make up for the lack of content and extend the time it takes to get to "endgame" (again lets be honest, you have to had been sick of seeing the amount of different named crabs as much as I was... same model, usually same color just different name in a different part of the world)
Now all I see when I look at games like WoW or its many clones is user wish fufilment. Everybody is easily powerful, able to tackle any problem without much hardship, or "earning" it. Yes, in some games they already pay money to play, so shouldn't they get a reward?
This is a two part problem. #1. Publishers and Devs. don't make games just for the sake of pleasing people, they do it to make money. On a worldly scale, your idea of "fun" is not the majority. They want to make the most money, so they're not going to piss away their funds on a small turn around for profit. Is that to say "you are wrong your way suxorz?" No... the mob is fickle. Like you said, you're not alone... people are getting bored of the same... old... shit. It shows like you've observed with the "clones". WoW, just like everything that has ever went mainstream and brought in a shit ton of cash, had every charlatan shit heel mimicking the formula just to get a piece of the pie. #2. They're video games. They're not intended to be a way to measure the size of your E-Peen by what gear you have or how long it took you to get it. Sort of falls back into the whole "Time Sink" thing.
Games shouldn't just be a reward system. Games are meant to challenge us to be better at something (strategy, athleticism, etc.) in order to win, or be "the best". An increasing number of MMO companies these days take your $15/month and hand everyone a 1st place ribbon.
The 1st place reference just backs up the whole elitism thing. The key thing you're missing... is it's still a GAME. People should feel free to play it how they want within the boundaries of said game. Let's take WoW for example. Want to solo all the way up to max level? Hop on the treadmil and go ahead. Want to get a close knit group together and hit max level? Have at it. PUG? Why not? Guild Raid? Sure! PvP, PvE, or just farm 10-19 greens with your max main to throw into the AH just because you thought it'd have been nice to have a better selection of AH gear when you first started out... god fucking forbid someone actually ROLEPLAYS instead of bitching in Vent about getting their epic.
Nostalgia is good and all, but it sounds like you have no idea about some very fun parts of why people play MMORPG's.
"There is only one thing of which I am certain, and that's nothing is certain."
I was going to let this thread die...I really was. But I feel like I need to respond to you, Lansid.
As you say about Chocobos, surely I must have hated them and preferred foot-slogging all over the place. No. The last 20 levels of footslogging it everywhere before you rode your first chocobo gave that chocobo ride meaning. It was rewarding. Not unlike how getting your first mount was in WoW at level 40, back when it took more than a day or two to get there.
And you're right, FFXI did get dull. It was a pre-WoW era game. And once you taste WoW, everything changes. Suddenly I couldn't stand certain things about FFXI. WoW improved on many timesinks, even back in its own infancy. This was still ok, because WoW itself at the time was still very immersive and a very good game for those who enjoyed a challenge, as well as those who liked to solo-quest.
As to your next issue... I've already recognized over and over that MMO devs are in it for the money, and this is all logical what they're doing. I don't want hardcore for hardcore's sake, as you say to measure up against others. I just found in the 'good old days' when there were timesinks and challenges, you respected the rewards that were given to you when you finally achieved them. It meant more, in this little virtual world that in the end means nothing. But for those of us who value immersion highly, it was paramount.
You're right, it's a game. And there are millions of them. Devs either try to make their game appeal to the majority now - the casual player - and thereby alienate the 'vets'. Or they try to cater to everybody, which in itself fails because the whining of casuals is always louder and in the end they just change the game to suit casual play anyway.
I'm not saying there should be NO casual games, that casual gamers are wrong. I respect their needs. I just wish more devs had the balls to make a game for somebody other than the mainstream, and make it right. But as we say, it's a big risk, there's little profit in it compared to the mainstream cash-grab. Such is the industry we live in. I don't argue it, I merely lament it like so many others.
I'm an MMO vet, and I agree to a lot of things the thread starter did say. But, hell yeah, its nostalgia. Actually, I don't really enjoy to walk 30 minutes to get to a town, or this kind of stuff, but, there's one thing that makes the fun, the emotion, the magic of it all, and that is: Fear of Death.
That really adds a lot to it. The one thing old MMO's used to bring was that panic, that fear, altogether with relief and conquest. That's where the challenge is. If you got nothing to lose, you got no fear. Died? Try again! Do it until you get there! That burns the fun away!
Thats what made those efforts worth on old school games, for if you died, you'd lose it, and if you lose pal, you're screwed! So make the best you can, play with your heart, or die as a rat... Thats how it should be!
"You know, this place makes me wonder. Which would be worse, to live as a monster or to die as a good man?"
That is purely a personal aspect. For many others 'it is just a game' and fearing death in a video game seems silly. They get their 'emotion, magic' out of beating a well designed challenge which translates better to the outside world rather than fake fear of losing some bytes.
When we have gotten to the point where people no longer want video games that evoke emotion, then that is really a sad day.
"Mr. Rothstein, your people never will understand... the way it works out here. You're all just our guests. But you act like you're at home. Let me tell you something, partner. You ain't home. But that's where we're gonna send you if it harelips the governor." - Pat Webb
What kind of an argument is "it's better because it takes less time"? There's nothing stopping you from playing "hardcore MMos" casually, unless you're one of those people who feel the need to rush to max level or get "phat lewtz" asap, which is stupid. In FFXI I played usually 2-5 hours, and when I didn't have time I played as short as 30 minutes, still had as much fun.
Old MMos - Had the best content/gameplay, but took more time
New MMos - Have much lesser quality content/gameplay, but take much less time
The immersion, challenge, time/effort vs reward, risk vs reward IS the fun. Besides, what the hell are you doing play video games if you only play 30 minutes-1 hour most of the time, let alone MMoRPGs? Other genres already provided insta-fun with no effort, such as FPS, single player RPGs, action games and RTS, why'd you have to ruin our genre?
The discussion is pointless, it's akin to brooding about how post-modernism killed art. The reality is that casuals are the lifeblood of the modern mmo market, any company with mainstream aspirations would have to be foolish not take advantage of that.
A much more fruitful line of investigation lies with the curious phenomena of not being able to get that 'oldschool' feeling back even when technically mmos such as darkfall and fallen earth should make excellent modern equivalents of that particular gaming style.
Why is that ? Simple nostalgia, contamination by modern games or perhaps a fundamental shift in gaming cognition. Curious indeed. My personal view on the issue is that it so happens indie developers alone strive to quench our 'oldschool' thirsts and in contrast to the very high standard of polish we have come to expect by being exposed constantly to AAA titles of the mainstream flavor, we simply find it hard to appreciate the indie game.
- Shijeer
Exactly. That is what console games are designed for.
It is not pointless. It is just a sheer number of these people already have biased opinions about ertain things and do not consider both sides. Both sides as in the company and its customers. To the guy above that prought up my 11.5 million comment, why wouldn't i bring up the most important factor on how it apparently "killed the mmo game"? It apparently killed the mmo game because it brought in millions of more players to the mmo market. Casual or not, it is still an MMO.
Pepsi1028
PEPSI!!!!!
Get out of your box already...
When it is heavily instanced, linear, instant gratification heavy, and void of much of a "community" feel, I would hardly call it an MMO. More like a console game in an MMO wrapper.
Meh... I wouldn't say casual killed the mmo game. You can have casual players in every game (yes, even Aion and Darkfall). I'd say modeling games after WoW are 'killing' the industry. Not so much WoW-clones (I hate that term), but the fact that they are turning PvP into as much a grind as PVE. Look what happened when they tried to modernize Daoc, you got that crappy pvp, not even able to call it rvr, game WAR.
I would totally agree with the OP if we didn't still have hardcore games to play.
Nothings stopping you from playing an older game... I mean their better than the new games anyway.
Playing: Rift, LotRO
Waiting on: GW2, BP
Of course, that's entirely not the case. In fact, casuals made the MMO industry, it would be a couple of small games struggling to make it if not for the casual market. Casuals are responsible for the explosion of MMO games over the last couple of years. If you're playing anything newer than, say, Final Fantasy, you can thank casuals for making it possible.
Played: UO, EQ, WoW, DDO, SWG, AO, CoH, EvE, TR, AoC, GW, GA, Aion, Allods, lots more
Relatively Recently (Re)Played: HL2 (all), Halo (PC, all), Batman:AA; AC, ME, BS, DA, FO3, DS, Doom (all), LFD1&2, KOTOR, Portal 1&2, Blink, Elder Scrolls (all), lots more
Now Playing: None
Hope: None
Biggest problem I have with your post is the statement "Games are meant to challenge us to be better at something (strategy, athleticism, etc.) in order to win, or be "the best". Because I think most can agree that that is not the only reason to play a game atleast not anymore if it ever really was for man. I in no way disagree with your right to feel that because I tend to agree that there are serious things wrong in the mmo space but I'm not ready to say that casual is what is wrong with it.
I think the casual/console player has entered the mmo market true to form but I really don't see that "hardcore" palyers are really overlooked every few years there is atleast one mmo being designed claiming to be hardcore but the truth is that that is not a growth market the same way the casual mmo is simply because of who the player base is.
I'm sorry for anyone who is not satisfied with the games that are designed as hardore lately but I also think it unfair that rpger's and the rest of us gamers in general are always hit with negativity from "hardcore" mmo fans, alot of the companies that make casual mmo's have roots in console/pc offline games too in some cases they were already industry standard companies and I don't really blame them for making games that they atleast think has a chance at reaching the gamer audience at large as opposed to constantly developing games that have a max audience of maybe one million people that will undoubtedly not all like your game.
Again let's look at games that are considered "hardcore" to some extent or another. Darkfall I've never heard anything about the numbers they do so I don't think they ever reached close to the numbers that say AOC did with 700k boxes sold, did Darkfall even reach 500k accounts activated? are there peak numbers known? We could guess if they were in the 500-750 k range we would hear it all the time and the biggest problem again is how much that game was shot down even by players who wanted a hardcore game.
It's one thing for us to want to see the types of games we want as an individual but I think it's unfair when I hear statements like "it's the investors always wanting a return on there money" well no duh isn't that the point of investing? The hardcore community can never even get together and support a product made for them no matter the cost and as long as that;s the case then they will always be underserved.
but yeah, to call this game Fantastic is like calling Twilight the Godfather of vampire movies....
That maybe the case now, so how did companies make a profit and make games before the casuals came along. I will tell you, compelling games that kept people subscribed substantially longer for a long term profit not a short cash grab introduced to get casuals in.
So no casuals dont keep the mmo industry alive they influenced the landscape is all. So instead of companies maintaining subscriptions via a well polished compelling game. We now get trash with pretty lights and bells to attract the casuals so comapny makes same profit just over a shorter time. Thank you casuals dont complain your the cause of where we are now.
Posted by Dave3216 on 3/31/10 at 8:03:24 PM
That maybe the case now, so how did companies make a profit and make games before the casuals came along. I will tell you, compelling games that kept people subscribed substantially longer for a long term profit not a short cash grab introduced to get casuals in. Ah..we didnt have much choice to be honest.. its was either EQ, AO, DAOC, and UO (which I never played since it was a much older look that didnt appeal to me); saying "compelling games that kept people subscribed substantially longer for a long term profit" well you are right but honestly I dont remember having much of a choice back then, it was either subscribe to EQ or DAOC or not play MMOs at all.
So no casuals dont keep the mmo industry alive they influenced the landscape is all. So instead of companies maintaining subscriptions via a well polished compelling game. We now get trash with pretty lights and bells to attract the casuals so comapny makes same profit just over a shorter time. Thank you casuals dont complain your the cause of where we are now.
Im no casual by any stretch of the imagination but I dont blame casuals for the change in games today, anything that was small that went un-noticed (like death metal or black metal in the music industry) for a long time and had a rabid fanbase that followed it fanatically; anytime that small media hits the public eye and companies find a way to mass market it the millions the original concept the essence/ soul that made it what it was... gets changed forever...thats life thats the way it goes...change is always happening it never stops. Its either adapt to the changes and overcome or get left behind dreaming of days of old. I wouldnt mind having a hardcore game come along for the sake of being hardcore I would play it....but I left that stuff behind and adapted to the changes in the market as they came and honestly it just wouldnt be the same no matter how hard I tried to love it, the essence that made that time special is gone as the days of old.
HEAVEN OR HELL
Duel 1
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Here is a quote that is just in relation to the second part of your reply Acvivm. Change for the sake of change (or so greedy companies can make money, off casuals) is no better, than no change at all.
Consider this; are games changing because companies are evolving and producing original genre changing features or are we changing because casuals are an easy money grab so companies are mass producing crap. I suggest to you it is the latter, therefore the change is corrupted and without substance making it no better than no change at all. Making your second point mute. (Sorry inner troll trying to escape :P)
This is the truth. This is it here.
I only read a couple of pages, but to everyone who's trying to compare an mmo game to a car has lost all credibility this is the second time I've read something like that today... that will never be a valid analogy.
What casual did was kill the immersion, thus slightly killed the world aspect of mmorpgs to be specific. I feel that mmorpgs nowadays are rpg mini-games more than rpg worlds. Is it fun? Sure... but the world effect is lost from catering to accessibility. Everyone wants to be a hero... and becomes one whether they deserved it or not. People always bash games with hard grinds, but what they did was limit the amount of end-game heroes. The challenge might have been more towards dedication and patience, but it was a challenge nonetheless and a challenge that actually was too hard for many to overcome.
It's not that I enjoyed walking 30 minutes to another town (well it was more fun ... mounts are boring), it's that if you had a mount... you were truly special. You could take lineage 2 for example. The only mount was a dragon and that wasn't easy to get because the baby version needed to be leveled (now it's easy... but it took a while for the community to get there).
Nowadays everyone feels like a hero... and looks like a hero, so being a hero is kind of stale.
What happen to the entire server coming together to defeat a boss? OH yeah.. everything's instanced and restricted now.
Restrictions also kill immersion.
Kill immersion?
Maybe if you want to "live" as a fantasy character. Play in a virtual sim world etc. I agree we dont see a cohesive server like the EQ days, but some folks want to go beyond that.
Some of us see gaming as simply that...gaming. Games have gotten better since I first played Pong in the 70s...but they have always remained games.
Which IMO is better than the alternative....being wound up into some sick fantasy. Lord help those types when they have their game taken for whatever reason.
Asking Devs to make AAA sandbox titles is like trying to get fine dining on a McDonalds dollar menu budget.
Oddly enough, I'm an "old MMO vet" and I agree with most of what you said. There are very FEW "old MMO" things that I miss or long for. However, I "despise" (that's really too strong of a word) the new generation of MMO'ers for the simple fact that they can't seem to see that there are valuable things that came from older games AS WELL AS wonderful things that come from newer games.
And frankly....I see a LOT of whining from newer gamers. Log into any game that isn't WoW and just watch the general chat channel for a while. Many of the players that left WoW, show up in ANY DAMN GAME YOU PLAY these days....and there they are in general chat....whining about something, as if all games should be "just like WoW." If they liked WoW so much....then why leave it and go whine about it in another games' general chat channels? That's just....ignorant.
To me, it's not an "either or" thing. You don't throw out the baby with the bath water, so to speak. New MMOs would not exist without their predecessors, and the best MMOs (in my opinion) are those that have taken what was good from older MMOs and what is good from newer MMOs and brought them together into a cohesive and enjoyable modern game.
Just my opinion.
President of The Marvelously Meowhead Fan Club
MMORPGs used to be a place for a very specific kind of gamer. If you grew board of single player experiences on console or PC, MMORPGs offered the challenge you were looking for. If you wanted something more than the "wham bam, thank you man" experience of an FPS, MMORPGs were a place to go where you could take an active role in creating your own avatar.
You can still do much of that in todays MMORPGs....but just to a lesser extent. Instead of offering game qualities to seperate itself from FPS and Console games (casual games), you continually see a change of game mechanics and features to mimic the quick n' fast experiences in FPS games, and very solo friendly play styles that you get in single player console games. Games are being developed to be experienced on a shorter cycle.
Thats fine for all of the casual gamers, but where are the people who originally joined MMORPGs for what they used to be supposed to do? Forget the old folks.....what are the new gamers who want something more meaningful than what consoles and FPS games have to offer supposed to do?
Most AAA game companies won't touch a MMO project with a stick unless you can pull in 500k - 1,000k subs. Most indie companies can't compete with the incredible budgets of the Blizzards, EAs, NCSofts of the world. For all of Darkfall's faults, it would be twice the game it is today if it had the dollars to polish & test the game prior to launch. It'd have 3x the number of subs if it had an actual marketing campagin and a reasonable launch.
With all that said......as painful as being full looted in UO was, it made me a better and more intelligent player. As boring as it was to spend over an hour running around to finish my class change quest was in Lineage 2, I felt more proud and valued that character more than I've valued any piece of gear (or character) in WOW.
It's a tried and true concept.....the more effort you put into something, usually the more you value it. That was the old school thinking around MMORPG experiences. Now its all about cheap recycled motivators.
One of the best things to come out of WOW was the fully customizable UI (first since UO I think). Regardless of how good a new game can be.....if you can't get your buttons and bars exactly where you want them to be, the experience just sucks. It's an incredible marketing tool, and quite frankly I don't understand why more games hasn't taken the same stance with UI.
But aside from the UI.....former WOW players do complain alot in other games, also by design. It takes too long to regen mana, I can't solo as well, I'm not getting enough drops, I need new gear faster, etc.
There is some good qualities that come from a MMORPG that highly promotes grouping, working hard for the things you have (hard in a relative sense), etc. Once you start down a road of making things more convienent, easier to do, with less time required....its VERY hard to go back the other way.
I have been playing MMO's for a long time but i do not view mmo's through rose tinted glasses the only thing that newer games make me realize is that i wasted an incredable amount of time doing ignorant things. I would say that newer games have refined my tastes and given me enough options to recognize the things that i hated about older games but didn't know any different because there were no other options. I like not having to waste half my in game time traveling or gathering 6.8 metric tons of crap to craft one part for a sword and still have to go gather an assload more stuff to even consider crafting that sword. I despise time sinks in games now, i play games for fun not to be a second job where i have to dedicate 8-10 hours a night to get anything done. The difference between now and then is that there are options and people have been shown that an MMO doesn't have to be a massive time sink that you can indeed play it a little and still accomplish things.
MMO's will always require more time to dedicate to than any single player game but having games that do not waste the time that i put into them by making me walk 15 miles to the next town or hub or wherever is much appreciated. Letting me have fun vice making me work for a little bit of fun just to move my fun carrot away from me so i plod through more miles of crap to try to get back to it is not a bad thing.
I don't see a problem with that. Instead of playing ONE game for years, now we can play MANY games for a few weeks/months ... more experience .. more variety. It is a win. Short games != bad games. It is a myth that a game need to keep my interests for years to be good.
Take SP games as examples. COD Modern Combat 2 is a GREAT game. The SP campaigh is short but very entertaining.
Consumers are flaky. It is highly risky to *assume* you will have lots of subs for years. Better to plan for the short terma and hope for the best.
And this is something alot of "mmo vet's" really don't see that the average "gamer" doesn't want to take part in those mundane time sinks, while vet's often consider themselves to be so "smart" I find it odd that they can't see things like this, companies adding so many factors to the game that you are forced to pay them likea second job just to accomplish anything is nothing more than a dev tool to keep you subbed longer. I think casual gamers see that because again the best selling games of all times are not mmo's with the exception of WOW (which consequentially is a casual mmo) and they are not designed to "hide the fun".
I don't have any problem with those types of games existing at all (though I know I'm beyond the whole wait fifteen minutes for the next shuttle) style of gameplay, what I think vets need to do is realize though again the mmo's growth market is a direct result of other gamers joining the mmo scope the hardcore market is not a growth market, I'm not here to discuss why but I think most can agree that there isn't the room for growth with those styles of games that exist in serving the entire rest of the video game playing world at large.
I think alot of times mmo vets fool themselves into thinking somehow some way that casual players aren't aware of what they are missing by playing casual games but I don't think it's true nor do I think it would make a difference if they did it's simply not the type of gameplay they (or I) like and that's really not going to help drive the production of games constantly building mmo's that sell maybe 500k boxes but can never serve over 100k paying customers.
but yeah, to call this game Fantastic is like calling Twilight the Godfather of vampire movies....