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XIV Combat compared to Vanguard
boojiboy
Member UncommonPosts: 1,553
I love Vanguard, but after 3 years, I'm looking for a new game and I'm very much interested in FFXIV. I've not played any of the previous FF games, but I'm trying to learn as much about the game as possible through forums and such.
One of the many things I loved about Vanguard was it's approach to combat. Can anyone with experience with both FF and Vanguard constrast the differences for me? I'm a bit worried about what I've read on FF combat thus far has it sounds kind of simple and 'console-ish'.
Comments
Consol-ish yes, because it's designed to be played using keyboard or controller. As for simple, nope, not by a long shot. The combat not only requires you to know when you "charge" an ability or when to use it immediately. It also requires you to take distance and position from the mob and other players into consideration.
The combat will be "slower" than twitch based mmo's like WoW, Aoc, Warhammer, Aion, etc.... but it will require more thought, coordination, and planning. For example, you do not automatically regen MP... you have to know when and how to use MP based abilities.
There's also no auto attack in FFXIV, you actively select which abilities to use after your active time bar has been filled.
I can't really make a good comparison as I haven't played Vanguard, but I can still try to explain the combat system to you as well as I can.
Basically, there is no such thing as auto-attack in this game. Every action happens by using a skill, be it a normal slash or stab attack or a special weapon skill.
Once you select the action you wish to do, the "action bar" starts to fill. It generally takes around 3~4 seconds for it to fill completely. Once it is full, you can trigger the attack by pressing the action button. However, you also have a choice to wait and let the "power gauge" meter fill up. It has three different phases, and each one lowers accuracy by some amount while boosting attack and critical hit rate by similar amount (or more). So, you have to determine if it would be beneficial to attack right away as the meter is full, or to wait for the power gauge. You have to time it well, because the gauge doesn't stay full, but will reset if you choose to do nothing but wait (the action bar stays full regardless, though). That's why timing is an important factor.
If you're using an offhand weapon like shield for example, another action bar will appear which works for your offhand. You can shield block monster's attacks like this by timing your block correctly, for example.
Using special skills (not the normal attacks) happens mainly by using Tactical Points which you gain as monsters hit you or you deal damage to them with the basic attacks. You generally don't need to hit the monster more than few times to be able to use said skills, but you can also keep storing up TP so you can use more skills later. These skills require the action bar to be full as well, most of the time.
These special skills have different requirements and added effects to them. Some skills pierce through all the enemies between you and your target, some require you to evade the monster's attack before you can trigger the skill (a counter of some sort) and some have different effects based on what kind of monster type you're dealing with. Some skills buff you or your allies, while some enfeeble your foes.
Some "classes" (loose term) also have a special factor to them. The Great Axe user Marauder for example, can make his attacks AoE if he stands still for a certain amount of time. Hand-to-hand user Pugilist on the other hand can switch between offensive and evasive stances, but the longer you stay in one stance, the more effective it becomes, so you have to think what is the most beneficial strategy to use for different situations.
Aside from just skills, factors such as direction and position also matter on the battlefield. If you are Marauder, you have to consider where would be the best position for you to hit as many monsters as possible with your AoE attacks, and for Thaumaturge you have to consider where it would be best to cast your conal AoE enfeebles. Monsters take more or less hit depending on where you're hitting them from, so hitting from behind deals more damage than from the front, for example. If you have a long range weapon, you can also be further away from the enemy so it can't hit you if you happen to get it's attention. If you have two monsters lined up you may be able to hit them both at the same time, if your weapon range is long enough.
The game has MP which almost every class can make use of, but it is lot more precious than in other MMORPG's, simply because it is so hard to replenish. While your hp regens when out of combat situation automatically (with the downside that you lose TP at a fast rate as well), MP can only be replenished by the use of few select skills with long cooldowns or special requirements (can only absorb MP from dead enemies), items such as Ethers (which are not cheap), or by examining an Aetheryte which are scattered all over the world. That is why you have to strategize your MP usage well, or you will run out fast.
When in a group, players can also make synchronized attacks which generate additional effects if completed properly. There are many combinations so you have to think which "Battle Regimen" works best for the situation at hand.
If you want I can tell you more about the way combat works in action (which also explains why MP in this game works the way it does) but yeah, those are the basics.
Thank you. Very helpful.
I'd like to hear it
Me too! :P Thanks for the explanation Hyanmen, that's the most indepth run-through I've seen so far.
Sure thing.
MP works the way it does because Square wanted to avoid the mentality in which players set up a camp somewhere and pulled monsters one by one for few hours. While it worked in such way in FFXI, this time the developers wanted the players to roam the areas and give a bigger "purpose" to the whole leveling process. You are not simply fighting monsters to level up, but to get from point A to point B as well. This is where the Aetherytes come into play.
Since Aetherytes are one of the only (and most effective) ways to replenish your MP, players are encouraged to travel from one Aetheryte to the next. During that travel is the time when you fight groups of monsters (the game puts heavy emphasis on fighting monsters in large groups) and try to make your way to the next "checkpoint" (Aetheryte) before you run out of MP completely. At the same time you need to fight against the clock, since the quests you will be doing at the same time have time limits as well. So conserving MP while progressing to the next Aetheryte as fast as possible is your primary goal. That way you have to utilize strategy even if you're full on MP and HP because you can't just blow out all your mana in one sitting and then expect to rest to full afterwards.
For solo play the difference is that you won't be fighting large group of monsters but only few at time or 1 vs 1 style, however I would assume the basic procedure to be quite the same still.
I'd also like to tell you a bit about the character progression system, which relates to combat in a way as well.
The class system in this game is very free when it comes to basics. Most skills can be equipped by different classes. This means that if you level mage to rank 5 ("levels" = "ranks") and learn Cure, and then switch to gladiator (sword user) by switching your weapon, once you hit rank 5 on it you can now also equip Cure just like with the mage class.
This opens up soloing options quite a lot, since basically every class can heal and buff itself decently. And since every class has MP (and you are free to put your stat points into more MP if you want to be a full-time soloer), that is of no issue as well.
Well, to that I can only say that faster paced does not always equal better.
While I agree with the notion that the combat is indeed extremely slow in FFXI, the pace picks up and gets faster the further you get. At the level cap, you'll be busy enough even if the pace is slightly slower than is the norm.
I could also argue that PS3 does not limit the game graphically nor combat-wise, but I would not like to derail perfectly good thread that has so far been mostly informative. PM is fine though.
Rhoklaw the slower pace isn't due to console limitations, it's to allow players to prioritise strategy and coordination over just mashing skills in a repeated sequence. Fast-paced MMOs tend to be quite mindless in how you play, especially on DPS classes, you just repeat a certain rotation until the target is dead, occasionally adjusting to accomodate scripted changes in the encounter. FFXI and XIV are significantly different in that players can coordinate attacks and have to worry about a lot more than just what skill to hit, without a slower combat pace this would be pretty unworkable.
The slower pace also allows for a more social atmosphere in parties as well, something I loved about XI.
All a matter of tase, of course, but a lot of people prefer the slower pace.
Amazing Hyanman.... good job.
But I'd also like to Emphasize, that what I've said so far is based on information of a game that only entered the Alpha testing phase less than a week ago. Thus there is no way for us to know if things will change in the future. For example, when it comes to traveling between Aetherytes, we haven't seen this in action yet, only in concept.
That is the current situation however, but take it with a grain of salt regardless. In the >big picture< this is how it should work.
We'll see about the implementation.
I was interested in FF14 as well, but when i started to read, one thing left me disappointed. It seems like it's a very linear game? From what i understood, all you do is do quests or missions, so called guildleves, that's whole gameplay..? I may be wrong, but i think it's the only way of leveling/progressing.
That's only a bad thing if the guildleves/quests are repetitive and boring. What if each guildleve or quest is so well done that they stand out? What if they are compelling chapters in a long book that is FFXIV?
If they are fun and challenging, I don't see what the problem is. A lot of this is just pure speculation. Play it, get a feel for it, then move on if it's not your thing.
Hyanmen, that post was epic. Thank you!
I feel like I've been scouring the internet for info for a while and you still brought up some things I didn't know about (which sound really exciting!)
Honestly, that post should be its own thread and stickied in my opinion
I totally hear what you are saying about wanting to have options. Maybe they will figure out a way to allow for traditional camping as well without having a hundred people crowded around an Aetheryte crystal.
Maybe there will be a class that consume HP to get MP back and if everyone can sub that ability then I suppose the whole group could camp anywhere they want. After battle they use that ability in passive mode so they also regain the HP they just lost (just an idea).
That was the best FFXIV info I've seen yet, thanks!
One quick question, are you sure this is how it works? I was under the impression that your action bar fills first and then you select your ability. Just like how the ATB system works in most of the single player FF games.
I had to go and recheck this, and yes, what I said first was incorrect.
Your action bar fills automatically, and when it is full you only need to click on the skill you wish to do and it'll go off.
It also seems that in the case of spells, there is a normal (rather short) casting time along with the action bar cooldown.
Yes, although I think it's like that for basically any MMO there is. Fight mobs, get exp, make progress. The guildleve system is very flexible though, so it can offer multiple types of tasks.
Combat is also not the only way to progress. Crafter or gatherer can also progress in the game as well as a combat class can, and they get their own guildleves especially tailored with crafting in mind.
Of course there will be other kind of activities for players to engage themselves in, but what we have been shown so far is the "core" gameplay.
If combat in FFXIV feels anything like FFXI, the best I can do is liken it to chess.
Everyone has a very specific job. The pace tends to be slower than most MMORPGs and combat is more tactical. Teamwork was important to maintain aggro, dispite the slower pace, as things can get out of control quickly.
In that FFXIV is targettin the casual player more than FFXi did, i do not know how much of this will hold true. I am excited to see what they come up with!
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To go a step further, here is my rephrasing of what Hyanmen is saying:
Target mob
Select weapon, which selects class
Pick skill or spell to use
Action bar charges up like ATB in Final Fantasy console games
Additionally, an Effectiveness Gauge charges. You can use the skill as soon as the Action Gauge charges, but the skill is more effective if you let the Effectiveness Gauge fill, too.
Finally, consider position. SE makes a big deal about how combatants are positioned in FFXIV.
Interesting conversation guys. I played a GOB SOR in VG, and I don't think FFXIV combat will be very similar. VG combat kept you busy because of critical and reaction skills, but it's a different kind of busy from FFXIV with the moving and timing attacks.
Geeked for FFXIV
Freelance FFXIV guide author for Ten Ton Hammer.com
Just to point out, you'll have selected your weapon/class before you even enter combat since that's the only time you can change it.
Also from what Haynmen said in his reply to Kupo it sounds more like:
ATB gauge charges.
Select skill/spell.
Effect gauge charges.
Use skill.
The ATB gauge essentially functions the same as a global cooldown in other MMOs, it just charges up, rather than cooling down.
Also you mention VG's focus on reaction based skills... FFXIV does have its own variants of these. I remember an interview mentioned that blocking will be an active ability rather than just a matter of chance. Not saying it'll be at all similar to VG but it does have elements of that sort of system as well.
Good point. The Pugilist Weapon Skill Jarring Strike says "Can only be executed after evading an attack."
Geeked for FFXIV
Freelance FFXIV guide author for Ten Ton Hammer.com
Good catch. I was paraphrasing the Famitsu description translated here, and I accidentally read it wrong. For sure, you can only change weapons when in passive mode. Technically, that should mean you could do that before a pull.
Geeked for FFXIV
Freelance FFXIV guide author for Ten Ton Hammer.com
Yeah you should be able to, I imagine it would depend on how simple SE makes it to change equipment and selected skills during or following a class change. Hopefully they'll save a skill and equipment profile with each of your played classes so that when you change weapons everything else changes to match the stored setup you last used.