Actually downtimes in a MMORPG do help me 'socialize'. They are the perfect time to alt-tab otu to check my email and respond to threads on this forum. Without downtimes I would not have as much time to post here since I would be playing the game instead.
Downtime is easy. You stop playing and go check your mail. It doesn't have to be built into the game, you just have to have the self-control to go do something else.
Priceless. He admits he wants a mmorpg with in-game mechanisms that prevent people from playing the game for a set amount of time. Call me crazy, but when I play a game i like to actually play it. The whole time, not just when the game lets me.
Downtimes are not designed to prevent you from playing the game, socializing with your in-game peers is part of the game, one of the most important parts in my book and good game mechanics provide time to do it. The intent was never to give you a chance to jump out and hit facebook for a bit while you wait. (though some of those 20 minute horse rides in DAOC were a great time to hit the head, grab a snack and read a bit before arrival.)
Im cool with that. I enjoy long jumps in EVE (gives time to check market, skills, etc), i enjoy running everywhere in lotro (lvl47 and still havent bought a mount) because middle earth is great to look at, and many times I come across someone in need of help and it feels great to be the unforseen saviour. To me thats part of the game and I enjoy it. What I dont like is stopping for 5 minutes after each fight to regen, or waiting 20 minutes for a boat. Those are poor mechanics.
Yet both of those mechanics serve a useful purpose. I used to spend those 5 minutes of downtime between fights (was usually more like 2 or 3) chatting with the people I was grouped with and made some great friends while we waited. But there was a time I ran 8 mans and to maximize our cooldowns we'd fight to the death then sit for 30 minutes waiting for them to all come back up and I really bonded with that group of folks as we figured out our next battle plan.
Same with the boats. In Lineage 1 while still a noob I took my first 10 minute boat ride to the mainland and happened to chat with a person 'stuck' with me and 10 years later, we're still online friends. I actually recruited many of my entire clan on that boat later on and we had great times together adventuring in the outside world.
Now, if you are a solo player, with no interest in meeting other people than I'll agree, these two mechanics are horrid and I understand why you don't want them. But from where I sit I'd love to find more games with these sorts of "features" but realize of course that I am in the minority.
Well, many times I take time to just sit in the prancing pony in lotro for example, just playing music and chatting with people. Thats my point. If I want to socialize, and I do occasionally, I want it to be *my* choice, and not the game's. If you only socialize when you're forced to, seems to me that you are the one who doesnt like to socialize.
If you stand VERY still, and close your eyes, after a minute you can actually FEEL the universe revolving around PvP.
Well, if there are MILLIONS of people in the market, it is NOT dead. If it is different that what it was before, it is merely changed.
In fact, it has changed and GREW (more people now than before).
If you don't like the changes, it is your problem, not the market's.
Precisely. With more than 11 million people in the market, it's far from dead, it's more vibrant and alive than it's ever been. The problem a lot of these "old-timers" are having is that, at one point in time, they were the group that was being catered to. Now they're not. They want the market to go back to kissing their butts but that won't happen because there just aren't enough of them and they don't like that. So they spend all their time telling us how bad the market is right now.
I'm sure the developers are laughing all the way to the bank.
....wow, you realize you sound like a spoiled little brat, right kid?
Call me back in 5 years when your favorite games are no longer being made, and everything you like about them is gone, and everyone else is saying "things are better now, because its more popular, jeez, get with the times, whats wrong with you. Besides, its all still there, more alive than ever, more than 30 million people in the market! Now excuse me, I have a 40 dollar flying mount to buy, and crops to water on facebook."
They're already not being made, look at my sig. I understand that the games I want to play aren't going to be made because people who share my interests simply do not make up a significant financial block. I'm fine with that too because I don't have to play an MMO, if I do, it's because I choose to, not because I go into withdrawals if I can't log in for 5 minutes. All it takes is understanding basic economics and accepting what is unquestionably true.
Maybe some day, someone will make an MMO I want to play but I'm not holding my breath. I don't pretend that anyone owes me jack squat, any more than they owe you anything. I don't sit around day after day and whine about how someone needs to make me a game though. I've got better things to do.
Well, if there are MILLIONS of people in the market, it is NOT dead. If it is different that what it was before, it is merely changed.
In fact, it has changed and GREW (more people now than before).
If you don't like the changes, it is your problem, not the market's.
Precisely. With more than 11 million people in the market, it's far from dead, it's more vibrant and alive than it's ever been. The problem a lot of these "old-timers" are having is that, at one point in time, they were the group that was being catered to. Now they're not. They want the market to go back to kissing their butts but that won't happen because there just aren't enough of them and they don't like that. So they spend all their time telling us how bad the market is right now.
I'm sure the developers are laughing all the way to the bank.
....wow, you realize you sound like a spoiled little brat, right kid?
Call me back in 5 years when your favorite games are no longer being made, and everything you like about them is gone, and everyone else is saying "things are better now, because its more popular, jeez, get with the times, whats wrong with you. Besides, its all still there, more alive than ever, more than 30 million people in the market! Now excuse me, I have a 40 dollar flying mount to buy, and crops to water on facebook."
They're already not being made, look at my sig. I understand that the games I want to play aren't going to be made because people who share my interests simply do not make up a significant financial block. I'm fine with that too because I don't have to play an MMO, if I do, it's because I choose to, not because I go into withdrawals if I can't log in for 5 minutes. All it takes is understanding basic economics and accepting what is unquestionably true.
Maybe some day, someone will make an MMO I want to play but I'm not holding my breath. I don't pretend that anyone owes me jack squat, any more than they owe you anything. I don't sit around day after day and whine about how someone needs to make me a game though. I've got better things to do.
So you don't even play any new MMOs and you're defending them? This is all about you not liking people complaining? Don't read these threads then. According to your sig you've played more oldschool/virtual world MMOs than new ones, so how long did you play them compared to WoW or any new MMO? If you played them longer then you're just trolling.
In response to you about my music comment, again you don't get it. They like it because they have nothing to compare it to and haven't heard anything better.
Well, many times I take time to just sit in the prancing pony in lotro for example, just playing music and chatting with people. Thats my point. If I want to socialize, and I do occasionally, I want it to be *my* choice, and not the game's. If you only socialize when you're forced to, seems to me that you are the one who doesnt like to socialize.
"Forced to socialize" sounds horrible, but the sad truth is that it makes a huge difference. Sure, you have the choice to take a break from the rat race and socialize, but if everyone else playing the game is too busy chasing xp and gear to do the same, there's not much point. I haven't played LotRO other than the trial, but from what I've heard there's probably enough socializers in that particular game's community for this to be an option. In most games with similar game mechanics, people are too busy chasing numbers to socialize unless they are forced too, though, and if you get too chatty in a group, you are not pulling your weight, and are considered a "slacker".
That's my experience anyway, and why I miss playing games where a typical play session would be 10 minutes of killing stuff, 5 minutes break... repeat ad nauseum and fill the breaks chatting with whoever happens to be in my group at the time. Beats the hell out of 2 hours of killing stuff and futile attempts at getting the chat going followed by 15 minutes of poking at afk people in "social hubs" and then logging off bored.
Yeah, I know I have options available to me. Join a guild of like-minded people, look for games with a friendly community etc... I've done all that, and it's not *that* hard. I still miss getting a social experience out of MMORPGs without actively seeking it out, though.
So you don't even play any new MMOs and you're defending them? This is all about you not liking people complaining? Don't read these threads then. According to your sig you've played more oldschool/virtual world MMOs than new ones, so how long did you play them compared to WoW or any new MMO? If you played them longer then you're just trolling.
In response to you about my music comment, again you don't get it. They like it because they have nothing to compare it to and haven't heard anything better.
I'm not defending any particular MMO, I'm defending the way MMOs, and in fact almost all business works. The ones that have the most money to spend get the most representation. That's how it's always worked, like it or not. I have played a lot of old school games, back when I had the time and interest in doing so. Today, I never would, simply because I don't have the time to sit around and waste on pointless time sinks that those games excel in. I played each game as long as it remained interesting for me. For WoW, I only played because I had friends who wanted to play, I never enjoyed it and I left as soon as my friends did. It's not my thing.
And there you go again making unfounded assertions. How the hell do you know that people who like Top 40 music have never heard anything better? How can you prove that any particular type of music is "better" than any other, it's an inherently subjective concept. No music or game is objectively better than any other. The only thing that matters is if the individual enjoys it or not. You don't. We get it. Then don't play. Stop with the idiotic entitlement crap. You're not entitled to the game you want, just because you bothered to wake up in the morning. If you want to convince a developer that they should create a game you'd like, you need to prove to them that there are enough people who are willing to play the game to make it worth their while. Note, I didn't say assert. I didn't say claim. I said PROVE. That's your job. Produce actual, demonstrable evidence that what you say is factually true. Come up with the 500k+ players that any AAA developer is going to want to exist before they'd even consider a project. Enough of the "I don't have to prove anything", you do. So do it or stop pretending that you've got anything worthwhile to say. That's how logical discourse works.
By that same line of thought, though, even the AAA themeparks that are being cranked out aren't measuring up. If we were to go with this line, only WoW and maybe LOTRO (last I heard around 750K, don't hold me to that number though) are the only ones that are. Yet that "type" of game is still being cranked out in monopoly fashion. Makes no sense to me. After this many games not meeting that standard of I were a financial backer I'd wonder a little about this method of making MMOs. Eve is good, sure, but it wasn't made by a AAA company (at the time) and it was made, what 6 or 7 years ago? Add to that it it doesn't give the player a humaoid avatar which turns off many folks regardless of themepark or sandbox preference.
There also, I believe, a tendency of anti-sandbox folks to exaggerate that number, which is a number they don't know exactly in the first. Sure, some dev comes out and throws out a number. Personally I don't believe the guy as SOE didn't give out server populations in the first place. Now, when an inquisitor-like spotlike is shining hot down on him he throws out a number to try to get the heat off him and make himself not look as bad? Yeah, not buying it myself.
It's also easy for the anti-sandbox crowd to leave out or dismiss completely the buggy state the game was in and the fact that the dev team spent more time trying to figure out how to change it into a themepark than trying to acutally iron out those bugs and build upon the established systems.
There are plenty of examples of modern day themepark failures. I'm sure defenders of this style would be quick to point out they are buggy and whatnot. Well, same goes for SWG. All things considered, I agree: making an MMO is a risk. The market, though isn't at such a state to where how MMOs are made must fall to a monopoly, a rigid homogeny.
LOTRO's closer to 300k, I thought. Haven't seen sub numbers for a while. I believe Aion has a couple of million subs, mostly in Asia. It's probably 2nd in popularity after WoW now.
Most of the recent themepark games haven't failed in concept; they've failed in execution. AoC was a buggy mess with high system requirements and lacklustre gameplay at launch. Vanguard was the same. WAR's concept was hybridized RvR and PvE, similar to DAoC but neither aspects were executed well enough for the game to succeed.
Regarding SWG; Smedley's quote was:
"There's a reason that we did this. The story … is kind of getting lost here…the game was losing subscribers. We had to make this game more accessible to a wider audience or eventually we would not have a business"
Now, you can say that you don't believe the guy .. but in the absence of evidence to prove that his statement is incorect, he is the guy who is in the best position to be considered credible.
If not to the players, certainly to the developers/financiers.
And those are the people who have the control.
I played SWG for several years and I don't remember it as being particularly bug-infested. No more so than other games that did not fail. The game world was largely empty and lacking in direction, but isn't that what Sandbox worlds are all about?
Well, no, that's not what they are all about, lol. Just because players want an avenue to, as they say, tell their own story, doesn't mean the game world doesn't have a lore, a history of it's own. It doesn mean the deve team can't generate in game events based on that story. It does mena, for me at least, that gameplay isn't dependent on following a pre-scripted set of quests/missions based on that story and having that as the sole "meat and potatos", so to speak.
I too played SWG for several years and, as the mayor of a city I can assure you it was buggy, hehe. Not unplayable, mind you, but buggy. I don't think the concept for it was a failure either. It is undeniable that the game did not receive the support that it should have. That said, I think that biggest negative it had was its IP. If it hadn't have been SOE and LA with SW the game would have gotten the proper support, I think, and would be doing just as well as LOTRO at the 300K you list (thanks for that, not sure where I got 750K).
"Many nights, my friend... Many nights I've put a blade to your throat while you were sleeping. Glad I never killed you, Steve. You're alright..."
Actually downtimes in a MMORPG do help me 'socialize'. They are the perfect time to alt-tab otu to check my email and respond to threads on this forum. Without downtimes I would not have as much time to post here since I would be playing the game instead.
Downtime is easy. You stop playing and go check your mail. It doesn't have to be built into the game, you just have to have the self-control to go do something else.
Priceless. He admits he wants a mmorpg with in-game mechanisms that prevent people from playing the game for a set amount of time. Call me crazy, but when I play a game i like to actually play it. The whole time, not just when the game lets me.
Downtimes are not designed to prevent you from playing the game, socializing with your in-game peers is part of the game, one of the most important parts in my book and good game mechanics provide time to do it. The intent was never to give you a chance to jump out and hit facebook for a bit while you wait. (though some of those 20 minute horse rides in DAOC were a great time to hit the head, grab a snack and read a bit before arrival.)
And I don't need DOWN-TIME to socialize. Just go to DAL in WOW. There are plenty of people there to talk to. When I want to get somewhere, or in a dungeon, there is no point to sit and wait for 10 min. If you want to talk to your group, you can always stop for 10 min & chat. Forcing people to do is BAD mechanics.
Good game mechanics provides the OPTION to do it. FORCING everyone, whether they have things to say or not, to wait for 10 min doing NOTHING is BAD game mecahnics.
In response to you about my music comment, again you don't get it. They like it because they have nothing to compare it to and haven't heard anything better.
Well, I have. I played EQ for a year from its start. The down-time is HORRIBLE. 10 min between leveling kills, and camping ... that is like 30 min of NOTHING then 10 sec of fighting a boss.
WOW is a 100x better game than EQ. At least you can go on an adventure instead of taking a number to get a low low chance of a drop. Oh, EQ is a piss-poor chat room. If i wanted to chat, IRC would be a much better choice (and ALSO free).
Well, many times I take time to just sit in the prancing pony in lotro for example, just playing music and chatting with people. Thats my point. If I want to socialize, and I do occasionally, I want it to be *my* choice, and not the game's. If you only socialize when you're forced to, seems to me that you are the one who doesnt like to socialize.
"Forced to socialize" sounds horrible, but the sad truth is that it makes a huge difference. Sure, you have the choice to take a break from the rat race and socialize, but if everyone else playing the game is too busy chasing xp and gear to do the same, there's not much point. I haven't played LotRO other than the trial, but from what I've heard there's probably enough socializers in that particular game's community for this to be an option. In most games with similar game mechanics, people are too busy chasing numbers to socialize unless they are forced too, though, and if you get too chatty in a group, you are not pulling your weight, and are considered a "slacker".
That's my experience anyway, and why I miss playing games where a typical play session would be 10 minutes of killing stuff, 5 minutes break... repeat ad nauseum and fill the breaks chatting with whoever happens to be in my group at the time. Beats the hell out of 2 hours of killing stuff and futile attempts at getting the chat going followed by 15 minutes of poking at afk people in "social hubs" and then logging off bored.
Yeah, I know I have options available to me. Join a guild of like-minded people, look for games with a friendly community etc... I've done all that, and it's not *that* hard. I still miss getting a social experience out of MMORPGs without actively seeking it out, though.
If you just want to socialize, go to a chat room. MMORPGs are GAMES ... the point is to kill stuff and get good loot. It seems a little odd that you fault the players for they actually .. uh ... PLAY the game.
And like you said, there are plenty of lay-back leveling guilds who would never see the inside of a raid dungeon. There are plenty of guild chat and you can socialize & play all you want.
What is the last "G" in MMORPG ... GAME. It should still be a GAME and not a glorified chat room.
By that same line of thought, though, even the AAA themeparks that are being cranked out aren't measuring up. If we were to go with this line, only WoW and maybe LOTRO (last I heard around 750K, don't hold me to that number though) are the only ones that are. Yet that "type" of game is still being cranked out in monopoly fashion. Makes no sense to me. After this many games not meeting that standard of I were a financial backer I'd wonder a little about this method of making MMOs. Eve is good, sure, but it wasn't made by a AAA company (at the time) and it was made, what 6 or 7 years ago? Add to that it it doesn't give the player a humaoid avatar which turns off many folks regardless of themepark or sandbox preference.
But you also have to remember that all those other games launched with issues that just couldn't be ignored by the player base.
I would say that the only other game that launched with a very promising launch was Aion. Problem is that the players who were attracted to it (a good many) came from wow. They then made comparisons and felt the game didn't have as much content, felt it was too grindy, crafting had luck to it and cost money, etc and went back to wow.
Now, in a vacuum when only comparing wow and aion I would have to say "well sure". WoW has been out far longer and has far more content, the levelng seems easier and it seems very user friendly in that you can discover the game without having to partake or be subjected to pvp.
But when really looking at "korean grind games", Aion is so completely far from that model that one would laugh if you put it in the same breath as Lineage 2 or Archlord for example.
So sure, they westernized it but not enough for players used to games like WoW.
But having experienced the good launches of LOTRO and Aion I do have to say that games like AoC and Warhammer did not fare as well. Vanguard as well.
So what's happending is that developers are still looking at WoW and saying "well, those other games had issues but if we can get those issues right then we can succeed".
My thought is that the things they need to get right are things like polish and game play that makes sense throughout the leveling to cap.
But when I logged into Warhammer at launch and my cape is appearing (I turned it off) every time I zone or the enemy AI is wonky it doesn't lend itself to the feeling of a great product. Conan felt equally as cheap. Boty games felt rickety. Add to that AoC's 1-20 experience of tortage which sets players up for a certain game experience only for them to then get out into the real world and have npc's that don't have voice acting, many fetch/kill quests, etc and it's as if the players were given a bait and switch.
I don't disagree with, what, 99% of what you say here. I'm on board with you. I just believe that same "other games had issues....we can succeed" bit applies to the virutal world/sandbox type game. I'm not saying it'll outsell WoW or Aion and nor would I want it too. When games get too big I believe they do more harm than good for a given genre as they choke out the creativity. Design concepts get homogenous. People (investors and CEOs) get locked into a "that's the only way to do it to make money" mindset that just isn't true.
There is certainly space enough for both types of games to be made in this modern era and to be successful.
"Many nights, my friend... Many nights I've put a blade to your throat while you were sleeping. Glad I never killed you, Steve. You're alright..."
Though I have to admit I lack the stamina to read their entire post.
MMOs definitely have been following a trend of making everything more solo-able. Unfortunately MMO developers need to monetize their products and that means drawing in more players. Seemingly lots of players don't like depending (at all) on other players.
If the social "virtual world" element of mmos is dead, I think that says more about people in general than it does about MMO developers.
If you just want to socialize, go to a chat room. MMORPGs are GAMES ... the point is to kill stuff and get good loot. It seems a little odd that you fault the players for they actually .. uh ... PLAY the game.
And like you said, there are plenty of lay-back leveling guilds who would never see the inside of a raid dungeon. There are plenty of guild chat and you can socialize & play all you want.
What is the last "G" in MMORPG ... GAME. It should still be a GAME and not a glorified chat room.
The point of any game is to have fun. If killing stuff and getting good loot is what makes a game fun for you, great. We obviously don't want the same kind of game. For me, the social aspects are more important than the combat mechanics and the loot system. It's what separates MMORPGs from single player games which have superior game play in every other way. Saying that an MMORPG is just about killing stuff and and getting good loot is ignoring the first 4 letters in my opinion.
If you just want to socialize, go to a chat room. MMORPGs are GAMES ... the point is to kill stuff and get good loot. It seems a little odd that you fault the players for they actually .. uh ... PLAY the game.
And like you said, there are plenty of lay-back leveling guilds who would never see the inside of a raid dungeon. There are plenty of guild chat and you can socialize & play all you want.
What is the last "G" in MMORPG ... GAME. It should still be a GAME and not a glorified chat room.
The point of any game is to have fun. If killing stuff and getting good loot is what makes a game fun for you, great. We obviously don't want the same kind of game. For me, the social aspects are more important than the combat mechanics and the loot system. It's what separates MMORPGs from single player games which have superior game play in every other way. Saying that an MMORPG is just about killing stuff and and getting good loot is ignoring the first 4 letters in my opinion.
Nailed it. Different strokes for different folks and I want want my games to include strong social elements that strongly encourage player interaction. Other's don't, they should stay in the land of consoles and single player games as far as I'm concerned.
Just trying to live long enough to play a new, released MMORPG, playing New Worlds atm
Fools find no pleasure in understanding but delight in airing their own opinions. Pvbs 18:2, NIV
Don't just play games, inhabit virtual worlds™
"This is the most intelligent, well qualified and articulate response to a post I have ever seen on these forums. It's a shame most people here won't have the attention span to read past the second line." - Anon
Thing is in SWG you don't depend on other players in the sense that your character is useless in combat without other people. You depended on them passively, like in EVE how them other players would make the economy work but you never have to see them. You go to a cantina to get rid of battle fatigue and wounds but you aren't forced to chat, you just watch and listen. It was there to give downtime and also to give other professions the chance to make money. You could have people who sat in towns and just chatted and healed people and still progressed in the game because they were playing how they wanted. Unlike in WoW where it is combat or nothing.
If you just want to socialize, go to a chat room. MMORPGs are GAMES ... the point is to kill stuff and get good loot. It seems a little odd that you fault the players for they actually .. uh ... PLAY the game.
And like you said, there are plenty of lay-back leveling guilds who would never see the inside of a raid dungeon. There are plenty of guild chat and you can socialize & play all you want.
What is the last "G" in MMORPG ... GAME. It should still be a GAME and not a glorified chat room.
The point of any game is to have fun. If killing stuff and getting good loot is what makes a game fun for you, great. We obviously don't want the same kind of game. For me, the social aspects are more important than the combat mechanics and the loot system. It's what separates MMORPGs from single player games which have superior game play in every other way. Saying that an MMORPG is just about killing stuff and and getting good loot is ignoring the first 4 letters in my opinion.
Nailed it. Different strokes for different folks and I want want my games to include strong social elements that strongly encourage player interaction. Other's don't, they should stay in the land of consoles and single player games as far as I'm concerned.
If you just want to socialize, go to a chat room. MMORPGs are GAMES ... the point is to kill stuff and get good loot. It seems a little odd that you fault the players for they actually .. uh ... PLAY the game.
And like you said, there are plenty of lay-back leveling guilds who would never see the inside of a raid dungeon. There are plenty of guild chat and you can socialize & play all you want.
What is the last "G" in MMORPG ... GAME. It should still be a GAME and not a glorified chat room.
The point of any game is to have fun. If killing stuff and getting good loot is what makes a game fun for you, great. We obviously don't want the same kind of game. For me, the social aspects are more important than the combat mechanics and the loot system. It's what separates MMORPGs from single player games which have superior game play in every other way. Saying that an MMORPG is just about killing stuff and and getting good loot is ignoring the first 4 letters in my opinion.
Nailed it. Different strokes for different folks and I want want my games to include strong social elements that strongly encourage player interaction. Other's don't, they should stay in the land of consoles and single player games as far as I'm concerned.
Frankly, if you're not looking for this basic ingredient in your MMORPG, I really have to question what you're doing on this site, let alone dabbling in this genre.
-----"If you just want to socialize, go to a chat room..."-----
What the fuck is going on with some of you!?
"Mr. Rothstein, your people never will understand... the way it works out here. You're all just our guests. But you act like you're at home. Let me tell you something, partner. You ain't home. But that's where we're gonna send you if it harelips the governor." - Pat Webb
If you just want to socialize, go to a chat room. MMORPGs are GAMES ... the point is to kill stuff and get good loot. It seems a little odd that you fault the players for they actually .. uh ... PLAY the game.
And like you said, there are plenty of lay-back leveling guilds who would never see the inside of a raid dungeon. There are plenty of guild chat and you can socialize & play all you want.
What is the last "G" in MMORPG ... GAME. It should still be a GAME and not a glorified chat room.
The point of any game is to have fun. If killing stuff and getting good loot is what makes a game fun for you, great. We obviously don't want the same kind of game. For me, the social aspects are more important than the combat mechanics and the loot system. It's what separates MMORPGs from single player games which have superior game play in every other way. Saying that an MMORPG is just about killing stuff and and getting good loot is ignoring the first 4 letters in my opinion.
it CAN be the same game, though.
Those who want combat and loot can focus on it. But let's not toss out the bay with the bathwater, and neglect those other styles of MMORPG gaming.
Advice: if you don't want to craft and socialize....then don't. But these activities should be included in the game for those who DO want to participate in them.
If you just want to socialize, go to a chat room. MMORPGs are GAMES ... the point is to kill stuff and get good loot. It seems a little odd that you fault the players for they actually .. uh ... PLAY the game.
And like you said, there are plenty of lay-back leveling guilds who would never see the inside of a raid dungeon. There are plenty of guild chat and you can socialize & play all you want.
What is the last "G" in MMORPG ... GAME. It should still be a GAME and not a glorified chat room.
The point of any game is to have fun. If killing stuff and getting good loot is what makes a game fun for you, great. We obviously don't want the same kind of game. For me, the social aspects are more important than the combat mechanics and the loot system. It's what separates MMORPGs from single player games which have superior game play in every other way. Saying that an MMORPG is just about killing stuff and and getting good loot is ignoring the first 4 letters in my opinion.
Killing stuff and getting good loot WITH OTHERS. That is the MMO stands for. It does not stand for a CHAT ROOM. MSN stands for that.
Plus, I can also kill other players.
And if you don't like killing stuff & getting good loot WITH OTHERS, go to play Second Life or go to a chat room. You can socialize to no end.
If you just want to socialize, go to a chat room. MMORPGs are GAMES ... the point is to kill stuff and get good loot. It seems a little odd that you fault the players for they actually .. uh ... PLAY the game.
And like you said, there are plenty of lay-back leveling guilds who would never see the inside of a raid dungeon. There are plenty of guild chat and you can socialize & play all you want.
What is the last "G" in MMORPG ... GAME. It should still be a GAME and not a glorified chat room.
The point of any game is to have fun. If killing stuff and getting good loot is what makes a game fun for you, great. We obviously don't want the same kind of game. For me, the social aspects are more important than the combat mechanics and the loot system. It's what separates MMORPGs from single player games which have superior game play in every other way. Saying that an MMORPG is just about killing stuff and and getting good loot is ignoring the first 4 letters in my opinion.
Nailed it. Different strokes for different folks and I want want my games to include strong social elements that strongly encourage player interaction. Other's don't, they should stay in the land of consoles and single player games as far as I'm concerned.
Frankly, if you're not looking for this basic ingredient in your MMORPG, I really have to question what you're doing on this site, let alone dabbling in this genre.
-----"If you just want to socialize, go to a chat room..."-----
What the fuck is going on with some of you!?
Kill stuff & getting good loot GROUPING WITH OTHERS. Tell me how i can do that with a SP game. Oh also PvP against OTHER HUMANS. Once again tell me how to do it on a SP game.
THAT is the MMO part of the MMORPG .. NOT a chat box (admittedly I do chat with my guildmates .. but that is NOT the central part of the GAME).
If you just want to socialize, go to a chat room. MMORPGs are GAMES ... the point is to kill stuff and get good loot. It seems a little odd that you fault the players for they actually .. uh ... PLAY the game.
And like you said, there are plenty of lay-back leveling guilds who would never see the inside of a raid dungeon. There are plenty of guild chat and you can socialize & play all you want.
What is the last "G" in MMORPG ... GAME. It should still be a GAME and not a glorified chat room.
The point of any game is to have fun. If killing stuff and getting good loot is what makes a game fun for you, great. We obviously don't want the same kind of game. For me, the social aspects are more important than the combat mechanics and the loot system. It's what separates MMORPGs from single player games which have superior game play in every other way. Saying that an MMORPG is just about killing stuff and and getting good loot is ignoring the first 4 letters in my opinion.
Nailed it. Different strokes for different folks and I want want my games to include strong social elements that strongly encourage player interaction. Other's don't, they should stay in the land of consoles and single player games as far as I'm concerned.
Frankly, if you're not looking for this basic ingredient in your MMORPG, I really have to question what you're doing on this site, let alone dabbling in this genre.
-----"If you just want to socialize, go to a chat room..."-----
What the fuck is going on with some of you!?
Kill stuff & getting good loot GROUPING WITH OTHERS. Tell me how i can do that with a SP game. Oh also PvP against OTHER HUMANS. Once again tell me how to do it on a SP game.
THAT is the MMO part of the MMORPG .. NOT a chat box (admittedly I do chat with my guildmates .. but that is NOT the central part of the GAME).
ah, so what you want is Counter Strike with loot. I get ya.
If you just want to socialize, go to a chat room. MMORPGs are GAMES ... the point is to kill stuff and get good loot. It seems a little odd that you fault the players for they actually .. uh ... PLAY the game.
And like you said, there are plenty of lay-back leveling guilds who would never see the inside of a raid dungeon. There are plenty of guild chat and you can socialize & play all you want.
What is the last "G" in MMORPG ... GAME. It should still be a GAME and not a glorified chat room.
The point of any game is to have fun. If killing stuff and getting good loot is what makes a game fun for you, great. We obviously don't want the same kind of game. For me, the social aspects are more important than the combat mechanics and the loot system. It's what separates MMORPGs from single player games which have superior game play in every other way. Saying that an MMORPG is just about killing stuff and and getting good loot is ignoring the first 4 letters in my opinion.
Nailed it. Different strokes for different folks and I want want my games to include strong social elements that strongly encourage player interaction. Other's don't, they should stay in the land of consoles and single player games as far as I'm concerned.
Frankly, if you're not looking for this basic ingredient in your MMORPG, I really have to question what you're doing on this site, let alone dabbling in this genre.
-----"If you just want to socialize, go to a chat room..."-----
What the fuck is going on with some of you!?
Kill stuff & getting good loot GROUPING WITH OTHERS. Tell me how i can do that with a SP game. Oh also PvP against OTHER HUMANS. Once again tell me how to do it on a SP game.
THAT is the MMO part of the MMORPG .. NOT a chat box (admittedly I do chat with my guildmates .. but that is NOT the central part of the GAME).
ah, so what you want is Counter Strike with loot. I get ya.
Yeah, if it has talents, 10 different classes playing differently, 19 slots for equipment, PvE dungeons & raids .. wait that is WOW .. a MMORPG ..
If you just want to socialize, go to a chat room. MMORPGs are GAMES ... the point is to kill stuff and get good loot. It seems a little odd that you fault the players for they actually .. uh ... PLAY the game.
And like you said, there are plenty of lay-back leveling guilds who would never see the inside of a raid dungeon. There are plenty of guild chat and you can socialize & play all you want.
What is the last "G" in MMORPG ... GAME. It should still be a GAME and not a glorified chat room.
The point of any game is to have fun. If killing stuff and getting good loot is what makes a game fun for you, great. We obviously don't want the same kind of game. For me, the social aspects are more important than the combat mechanics and the loot system. It's what separates MMORPGs from single player games which have superior game play in every other way. Saying that an MMORPG is just about killing stuff and and getting good loot is ignoring the first 4 letters in my opinion.
Nailed it. Different strokes for different folks and I want want my games to include strong social elements that strongly encourage player interaction. Other's don't, they should stay in the land of consoles and single player games as far as I'm concerned.
Frankly, if you're not looking for this basic ingredient in your MMORPG, I really have to question what you're doing on this site, let alone dabbling in this genre.
-----"If you just want to socialize, go to a chat room..."-----
What the fuck is going on with some of you!?
Kill stuff & getting good loot GROUPING WITH OTHERS. Tell me how i can do that with a SP game. Oh also PvP against OTHER HUMANS. Once again tell me how to do it on a SP game.
THAT is the MMO part of the MMORPG .. NOT a chat box (admittedly I do chat with my guildmates .. but that is NOT the central part of the GAME).
ah, so what you want is Counter Strike with loot. I get ya.
Yeah, if it has talents, 10 different classes playing differently, 19 slots for equipment, PvE dungeons & raids .. wait that is WOW .. a MMORPG ..
Nope....that's an e-sport calling it'self an MMORPG.
If you just want to socialize, go to a chat room. MMORPGs are GAMES ... the point is to kill stuff and get good loot. It seems a little odd that you fault the players for they actually .. uh ... PLAY the game.
And like you said, there are plenty of lay-back leveling guilds who would never see the inside of a raid dungeon. There are plenty of guild chat and you can socialize & play all you want.
What is the last "G" in MMORPG ... GAME. It should still be a GAME and not a glorified chat room.
The point of any game is to have fun. If killing stuff and getting good loot is what makes a game fun for you, great. We obviously don't want the same kind of game. For me, the social aspects are more important than the combat mechanics and the loot system. It's what separates MMORPGs from single player games which have superior game play in every other way. Saying that an MMORPG is just about killing stuff and and getting good loot is ignoring the first 4 letters in my opinion.
Nailed it. Different strokes for different folks and I want want my games to include strong social elements that strongly encourage player interaction. Other's don't, they should stay in the land of consoles and single player games as far as I'm concerned.
Frankly, if you're not looking for this basic ingredient in your MMORPG, I really have to question what you're doing on this site, let alone dabbling in this genre.
-----"If you just want to socialize, go to a chat room..."-----
What the fuck is going on with some of you!?
Kill stuff & getting good loot GROUPING WITH OTHERS. Tell me how i can do that with a SP game. Oh also PvP against OTHER HUMANS. Once again tell me how to do it on a SP game.
THAT is the MMO part of the MMORPG .. NOT a chat box (admittedly I do chat with my guildmates .. but that is NOT the central part of the GAME).
ah, so what you want is Counter Strike with loot. I get ya.
Yeah, if it has talents, 10 different classes playing differently, 19 slots for equipment, PvE dungeons & raids .. wait that is WOW .. a MMORPG ..
Nope....that's an e-sport calling it'self an MMORPG.
If you feel the PvP is part of a massively online game... what's massive about an arena or battleground with a small capped number of people?
MMORPGs used to be about the social virtual world. Games like WoW lose sight of that in favor of instant gratification mini games.
Isn't the "virtual world" largely in your head? It makes sense to me, since the actual graphics and such of games have improved alot. They should help you to create your own "virtual World" with your imagination, no?
Imagination is subjective. It means it is related to the subject, to the individual.
"Virtual World" is objective, the same for everyone.
Each and every players' imagination is bound by ONE OBJECTIVE SET OF design decisions and game mechanics. Thats why.
That sounds nice, but I'm not sure I buy it. I admit I can't really tell if you are agreeing with me or not. Perhaps you misunderstood me. People have been roleplaying on tabletops and in MUDs long before the first 3D MMOs. Those worlds existed solely in the players mind. Now, each player might have had a different interpretation of what was going on, but they were all "living in their worlds". Just because everyone sees and interacts with the same graphics and set of mathematical rules, does not mean each person interprets them the same way.
Vault-Tec analysts have concluded that the odds of worldwide nuclear armaggeddon this decade are 17,143,762... to 1.
Comments
Well, many times I take time to just sit in the prancing pony in lotro for example, just playing music and chatting with people. Thats my point. If I want to socialize, and I do occasionally, I want it to be *my* choice, and not the game's. If you only socialize when you're forced to, seems to me that you are the one who doesnt like to socialize.
If you stand VERY still, and close your eyes, after a minute you can actually FEEL the universe revolving around PvP.
They're already not being made, look at my sig. I understand that the games I want to play aren't going to be made because people who share my interests simply do not make up a significant financial block. I'm fine with that too because I don't have to play an MMO, if I do, it's because I choose to, not because I go into withdrawals if I can't log in for 5 minutes. All it takes is understanding basic economics and accepting what is unquestionably true.
Maybe some day, someone will make an MMO I want to play but I'm not holding my breath. I don't pretend that anyone owes me jack squat, any more than they owe you anything. I don't sit around day after day and whine about how someone needs to make me a game though. I've got better things to do.
Played: UO, EQ, WoW, DDO, SWG, AO, CoH, EvE, TR, AoC, GW, GA, Aion, Allods, lots more
Relatively Recently (Re)Played: HL2 (all), Halo (PC, all), Batman:AA; AC, ME, BS, DA, FO3, DS, Doom (all), LFD1&2, KOTOR, Portal 1&2, Blink, Elder Scrolls (all), lots more
Now Playing: None
Hope: None
So you don't even play any new MMOs and you're defending them? This is all about you not liking people complaining? Don't read these threads then. According to your sig you've played more oldschool/virtual world MMOs than new ones, so how long did you play them compared to WoW or any new MMO? If you played them longer then you're just trolling.
In response to you about my music comment, again you don't get it. They like it because they have nothing to compare it to and haven't heard anything better.
"Forced to socialize" sounds horrible, but the sad truth is that it makes a huge difference. Sure, you have the choice to take a break from the rat race and socialize, but if everyone else playing the game is too busy chasing xp and gear to do the same, there's not much point. I haven't played LotRO other than the trial, but from what I've heard there's probably enough socializers in that particular game's community for this to be an option. In most games with similar game mechanics, people are too busy chasing numbers to socialize unless they are forced too, though, and if you get too chatty in a group, you are not pulling your weight, and are considered a "slacker".
That's my experience anyway, and why I miss playing games where a typical play session would be 10 minutes of killing stuff, 5 minutes break... repeat ad nauseum and fill the breaks chatting with whoever happens to be in my group at the time. Beats the hell out of 2 hours of killing stuff and futile attempts at getting the chat going followed by 15 minutes of poking at afk people in "social hubs" and then logging off bored.
Yeah, I know I have options available to me. Join a guild of like-minded people, look for games with a friendly community etc... I've done all that, and it's not *that* hard. I still miss getting a social experience out of MMORPGs without actively seeking it out, though.
I'm not defending any particular MMO, I'm defending the way MMOs, and in fact almost all business works. The ones that have the most money to spend get the most representation. That's how it's always worked, like it or not. I have played a lot of old school games, back when I had the time and interest in doing so. Today, I never would, simply because I don't have the time to sit around and waste on pointless time sinks that those games excel in. I played each game as long as it remained interesting for me. For WoW, I only played because I had friends who wanted to play, I never enjoyed it and I left as soon as my friends did. It's not my thing.
And there you go again making unfounded assertions. How the hell do you know that people who like Top 40 music have never heard anything better? How can you prove that any particular type of music is "better" than any other, it's an inherently subjective concept. No music or game is objectively better than any other. The only thing that matters is if the individual enjoys it or not. You don't. We get it. Then don't play. Stop with the idiotic entitlement crap. You're not entitled to the game you want, just because you bothered to wake up in the morning. If you want to convince a developer that they should create a game you'd like, you need to prove to them that there are enough people who are willing to play the game to make it worth their while. Note, I didn't say assert. I didn't say claim. I said PROVE. That's your job. Produce actual, demonstrable evidence that what you say is factually true. Come up with the 500k+ players that any AAA developer is going to want to exist before they'd even consider a project. Enough of the "I don't have to prove anything", you do. So do it or stop pretending that you've got anything worthwhile to say. That's how logical discourse works.
Played: UO, EQ, WoW, DDO, SWG, AO, CoH, EvE, TR, AoC, GW, GA, Aion, Allods, lots more
Relatively Recently (Re)Played: HL2 (all), Halo (PC, all), Batman:AA; AC, ME, BS, DA, FO3, DS, Doom (all), LFD1&2, KOTOR, Portal 1&2, Blink, Elder Scrolls (all), lots more
Now Playing: None
Hope: None
Well, no, that's not what they are all about, lol. Just because players want an avenue to, as they say, tell their own story, doesn't mean the game world doesn't have a lore, a history of it's own. It doesn mean the deve team can't generate in game events based on that story. It does mena, for me at least, that gameplay isn't dependent on following a pre-scripted set of quests/missions based on that story and having that as the sole "meat and potatos", so to speak.
I too played SWG for several years and, as the mayor of a city I can assure you it was buggy, hehe. Not unplayable, mind you, but buggy. I don't think the concept for it was a failure either. It is undeniable that the game did not receive the support that it should have. That said, I think that biggest negative it had was its IP. If it hadn't have been SOE and LA with SW the game would have gotten the proper support, I think, and would be doing just as well as LOTRO at the 300K you list (thanks for that, not sure where I got 750K).
"Many nights, my friend... Many nights I've put a blade to your throat while you were sleeping. Glad I never killed you, Steve. You're alright..."
Chavez y Chavez
And I don't need DOWN-TIME to socialize. Just go to DAL in WOW. There are plenty of people there to talk to. When I want to get somewhere, or in a dungeon, there is no point to sit and wait for 10 min. If you want to talk to your group, you can always stop for 10 min & chat. Forcing people to do is BAD mechanics.
Good game mechanics provides the OPTION to do it. FORCING everyone, whether they have things to say or not, to wait for 10 min doing NOTHING is BAD game mecahnics.
In response to you about my music comment, again you don't get it. They like it because they have nothing to compare it to and haven't heard anything better.
Well, I have. I played EQ for a year from its start. The down-time is HORRIBLE. 10 min between leveling kills, and camping ... that is like 30 min of NOTHING then 10 sec of fighting a boss.
WOW is a 100x better game than EQ. At least you can go on an adventure instead of taking a number to get a low low chance of a drop. Oh, EQ is a piss-poor chat room. If i wanted to chat, IRC would be a much better choice (and ALSO free).
If you just want to socialize, go to a chat room. MMORPGs are GAMES ... the point is to kill stuff and get good loot. It seems a little odd that you fault the players for they actually .. uh ... PLAY the game.
And like you said, there are plenty of lay-back leveling guilds who would never see the inside of a raid dungeon. There are plenty of guild chat and you can socialize & play all you want.
What is the last "G" in MMORPG ... GAME. It should still be a GAME and not a glorified chat room.
The crux of the matter for me is this: I want a living, breathing, compelling world to live in, but I wont sacrifice 'the game' part for it.
If you stand VERY still, and close your eyes, after a minute you can actually FEEL the universe revolving around PvP.
I don't disagree with, what, 99% of what you say here. I'm on board with you. I just believe that same "other games had issues....we can succeed" bit applies to the virutal world/sandbox type game. I'm not saying it'll outsell WoW or Aion and nor would I want it too. When games get too big I believe they do more harm than good for a given genre as they choke out the creativity. Design concepts get homogenous. People (investors and CEOs) get locked into a "that's the only way to do it to make money" mindset that just isn't true.
There is certainly space enough for both types of games to be made in this modern era and to be successful.
"Many nights, my friend... Many nights I've put a blade to your throat while you were sleeping. Glad I never killed you, Steve. You're alright..."
Chavez y Chavez
I can appreciate the OP's point of view.
Though I have to admit I lack the stamina to read their entire post.
MMOs definitely have been following a trend of making everything more solo-able. Unfortunately MMO developers need to monetize their products and that means drawing in more players. Seemingly lots of players don't like depending (at all) on other players.
If the social "virtual world" element of mmos is dead, I think that says more about people in general than it does about MMO developers.
The point of any game is to have fun. If killing stuff and getting good loot is what makes a game fun for you, great. We obviously don't want the same kind of game. For me, the social aspects are more important than the combat mechanics and the loot system. It's what separates MMORPGs from single player games which have superior game play in every other way. Saying that an MMORPG is just about killing stuff and and getting good loot is ignoring the first 4 letters in my opinion.
Nailed it. Different strokes for different folks and I want want my games to include strong social elements that strongly encourage player interaction. Other's don't, they should stay in the land of consoles and single player games as far as I'm concerned.
"True friends stab you in the front." | Oscar Wilde
"I need to finish" - Christian Wolff: The Accountant
Just trying to live long enough to play a new, released MMORPG, playing New Worlds atm
Fools find no pleasure in understanding but delight in airing their own opinions. Pvbs 18:2, NIV
Don't just play games, inhabit virtual worlds™
"This is the most intelligent, well qualified and articulate response to a post I have ever seen on these forums. It's a shame most people here won't have the attention span to read past the second line." - Anon
Thing is in SWG you don't depend on other players in the sense that your character is useless in combat without other people. You depended on them passively, like in EVE how them other players would make the economy work but you never have to see them. You go to a cantina to get rid of battle fatigue and wounds but you aren't forced to chat, you just watch and listen. It was there to give downtime and also to give other professions the chance to make money. You could have people who sat in towns and just chatted and healed people and still progressed in the game because they were playing how they wanted. Unlike in WoW where it is combat or nothing.
Bingo.
Frankly, if you're not looking for this basic ingredient in your MMORPG, I really have to question what you're doing on this site, let alone dabbling in this genre.
-----"If you just want to socialize, go to a chat room..."-----
What the fuck is going on with some of you!?
"Mr. Rothstein, your people never will understand... the way it works out here. You're all just our guests. But you act like you're at home. Let me tell you something, partner. You ain't home. But that's where we're gonna send you if it harelips the governor." - Pat Webb
it CAN be the same game, though.
Those who want combat and loot can focus on it. But let's not toss out the bay with the bathwater, and neglect those other styles of MMORPG gaming.
Advice: if you don't want to craft and socialize....then don't. But these activities should be included in the game for those who DO want to participate in them.
Edit: drunk. Can't spell.
Killing stuff and getting good loot WITH OTHERS. That is the MMO stands for. It does not stand for a CHAT ROOM. MSN stands for that.
Plus, I can also kill other players.
And if you don't like killing stuff & getting good loot WITH OTHERS, go to play Second Life or go to a chat room. You can socialize to no end.
Kill stuff & getting good loot GROUPING WITH OTHERS. Tell me how i can do that with a SP game. Oh also PvP against OTHER HUMANS. Once again tell me how to do it on a SP game.
THAT is the MMO part of the MMORPG .. NOT a chat box (admittedly I do chat with my guildmates .. but that is NOT the central part of the GAME).
ah, so what you want is Counter Strike with loot. I get ya.
Yeah, if it has talents, 10 different classes playing differently, 19 slots for equipment, PvE dungeons & raids .. wait that is WOW .. a MMORPG ..
Nope....that's an e-sport calling it'self an MMORPG.
If you feel the PvP is part of a massively online game... what's massive about an arena or battleground with a small capped number of people?
MMORPGs used to be about the social virtual world. Games like WoW lose sight of that in favor of instant gratification mini games.
That sounds nice, but I'm not sure I buy it. I admit I can't really tell if you are agreeing with me or not. Perhaps you misunderstood me. People have been roleplaying on tabletops and in MUDs long before the first 3D MMOs. Those worlds existed solely in the players mind. Now, each player might have had a different interpretation of what was going on, but they were all "living in their worlds". Just because everyone sees and interacts with the same graphics and set of mathematical rules, does not mean each person interprets them the same way.
Vault-Tec analysts have concluded that the odds of worldwide nuclear armaggeddon this decade are 17,143,762... to 1.