Originally posted by Rockgod99 Originally posted by Xiaoki
Originally posted by Rockgod99 Get over yourself WoW means nothing and the players mean even less.
If WoW "means nothing" then why does it occupy so much of your time? Why would you scour the boards so incessantly looking for any reason to post your hatred of WoW? If WoW truly was so meaningless then you wouldnt post about it at all. Because im bored at work during breaks and enjoy mmo discussions? Also I don't only post on WoW forums. I post on Eve forums and the pub and general console games and off topic and War and Ryzom and I could go on and on...
With that said im not gonna go all crazy and start acting like people have mental issues because they don't like a video game. It's just not that serious. Really? So, what part of "WoW means nothing and the players mean even less" is open to discussion.
The bashing of the game or the insulting sweeping generalisation of its players?
Heres a tip: if you want a real discussion dont call people worthless.
Let's look at McDonalds. A lot of people compare WoW to McDonalds. What's the difference, besides the thousands of obvious things? It's much more difficult to get to McDonalds.
You get to WoW from the computer in the spare room, or living room, etc.
You can't keep a good game down. News travels at hyper speed on the internet these days. If your game was good, everyone would know.
Your game is not good. How can I tell? Because it doesn't have very many subs.
Thank you for your time.
What an absolutely illogical and absurd argument. You're comparing apples and oranges. You're comparing getting fast food and playing an online game.
The PROPER frame of reference between McDonalds and WoW is its POPULARITY. Many WoW fanbois argue that popularity/subsciption numbers means that Wow is the "best." Using YOUR argument, that means since McDonalds makes the most money around the world and more people go to McDonalds than any other fast food restaurant, THEREFORE McDonalds is the "Best" restaurant on earth.
Do you get the analogy now? Or more importantly, do you realize how most subscriptions =/ best? Maybe i'm asking too much (lol).
Let's look at McDonalds. A lot of people compare WoW to McDonalds. What's the difference, besides the thousands of obvious things? It's much more difficult to get to McDonalds.
You get to WoW from the computer in the spare room, or living room, etc.
You can't keep a good game down. News travels at hyper speed on the internet these days. If your game was good, everyone would know.
Your game is not good. How can I tell? Because it doesn't have very many subs.
Thank you for your time.
What an absolutely illogical and absurd argument. You're comparing apples and oranges. You're comparing getting fast food and playing an online game.
The PROPER frame of reference between McDonalds and WoW is its POPULARITY. Many WoW fanbois argue that popularity/subsciption numbers means that Wow is the "best." Using YOUR argument, that means since McDonalds makes the most money around the world and more people go to McDonalds than any other fast food restaurant, THEREFORE McDonalds is the "Best" restaurant on earth.
Do you get the analogy now? Or more importantly, do you realize how most subscriptions =/ best? Maybe i'm asking too much (lol).
The whole McDonald's anology (and most anologies for that matter) always gives me a good laugh. That said ... while I agree that popularity doesn't always equate to quality, some times it does. I'd argue that WoW's continued success and dominance in the market is a reflection of the game's quality.
Let's look at McDonalds. A lot of people compare WoW to McDonalds. What's the difference, besides the thousands of obvious things? It's much more difficult to get to McDonalds.
You get to WoW from the computer in the spare room, or living room, etc.
You can't keep a good game down. News travels at hyper speed on the internet these days. If your game was good, everyone would know.
Your game is not good. How can I tell? Because it doesn't have very many subs.
Thank you for your time.
What an absolutely illogical and absurd argument. You're comparing apples and oranges. You're comparing getting fast food and playing an online game.
The PROPER frame of reference between McDonalds and WoW is its POPULARITY. Many WoW fanbois argue that popularity/subsciption numbers means that Wow is the "best." Using YOUR argument, that means since McDonalds makes the most money around the world and more people go to McDonalds than any other fast food restaurant, THEREFORE McDonalds is the "Best" restaurant on earth.
Do you get the analogy now? Or more importantly, do you realize how most subscriptions =/ best? Maybe i'm asking too much (lol).
The whole McDonald's anology (and most anologies for that matter) always gives me a good laugh. That said ... while I agree that popularity doesn't always equate to quality, some times it does. I'd argue that WoW's continued success and dominance in the market is a reflection of the game's quality.
The issue isn't whether Wow is good, wonderful, stupendous, great, or whatever (insert adjective here)...
It's about the ONE adjective that WoW fanbois use.... BEST. The sole basis for the argument is the games popularity. The popularity can be objectively quantified (i.e. number of active subscriptions). But "Best" is a subjective determination.
I for one think that WoW is a very good to great game. I have the problem with subscription numbers = BEST game.
With that said, the McDonalds argument still holds because they have great fries and the Big Mac which people love. If the food didn't taste good, people woulnd't go back. Similarly, if the gameplay or other aspects of wow weren't good enough, people wouldn't go back.
If the McDonalds comparison leaves a bad taste in your mouth (pun intended), then AVATAR is as good of a comparison. Avatar is the highest grossing film of all time. It has a lot going for it. Great action, amazing graphics, etc etc. Therefore, it's also the best movie of all time. Before Avatar, since Titanic was the highest grossing movie of all time, it was the best movie until Avatar.
The issue, as you put it, isn't whether popularity does or doesn't equate to quality. I would argue that primarily all instances of popularity have an element of quality. Rarily will you see something qualitiatively subpar also be the most popular, but the question is one of degree. It has to do with the word "best."
Let's look at McDonalds. A lot of people compare WoW to McDonalds. What's the difference, besides the thousands of obvious things? It's much more difficult to get to McDonalds.
You get to WoW from the computer in the spare room, or living room, etc.
You can't keep a good game down. News travels at hyper speed on the internet these days. If your game was good, everyone would know.
Your game is not good. How can I tell? Because it doesn't have very many subs.
Thank you for your time.
What an absolutely illogical and absurd argument. You're comparing apples and oranges. You're comparing getting fast food and playing an online game.
The PROPER frame of reference between McDonalds and WoW is its POPULARITY. Many WoW fanbois argue that popularity/subsciption numbers means that Wow is the "best." Using YOUR argument, that means since McDonalds makes the most money around the world and more people go to McDonalds than any other fast food restaurant, THEREFORE McDonalds is the "Best" restaurant on earth.
Do you get the analogy now? Or more importantly, do you realize how most subscriptions =/ best? Maybe i'm asking too much (lol).
The whole McDonald's anology (and most anologies for that matter) always gives me a good laugh. That said ... while I agree that popularity doesn't always equate to quality, some times it does. I'd argue that WoW's continued success and dominance in the market is a reflection of the game's quality.
And I will argue that WoWs popularity is riding the wave of old school Blizzard games like Diablo 1 and 2, Warcraft 1,2 and 3, Starcraft and WoWs first 2 years. Nobody in their right mind would ever doubt Blizzards quality and craftmenship that was put into all of those games but we also need to remember that Blizzard today is not the same Blizzard Pre BC. Since that change at Blizzard WoWs "game design" * and community quality has gone down significantly while maintaining a high level of polish.
WoW pulled in high numbers early on based on past Blizzard products and the initial overall quality of WoW. These high numbers in turn brought in all the non gamers to the game and got them hooked on the addiction that is obtaining new shiny gear. There's a great many people who play WoW and do not play other games at all and do not care that there are other choices in MMOs out there because WoW is where all their friends play. Even I resubbed last summer and when my guildies all asked my why I was back my only answer was simpley "I wanted to play with you guys". Since then though I have just recently canceled my subscription again because of several different reasons.
As far as the McDonalds analogy goes it's a perfectly valid one. McDonalds clearly sells more hamburgers and fries than anyone else but will anyone ever argue that they have the best burgers and fries around ? Clearly their market dominance is a reflection of their quality is it not ?
*The game design I am referring to is the constant carrot on a stick cattle herding that is the heroic badge farm into the 10 man raid bottleneck. Take for example you have 13 people on in guild at raid time, 10 people can go but that means 3 people have to be left out of the raid and playing with their friends. This to me is terrible for guild morale and creates elitist cliques within the game. As someone who was an officer and raid leader in guild I constantly got whispers from people feeling down and left out and wondered why they were even logging into the game because they we're left out for no other reason than the raid was full.
This bottleneck is nothing more than an artificial time sink designed to keep the loot addicts coming back month after month, it is not designed into the game to be a fun game play element.
Originally posted by Surfrider The whole McDonald's anology (and most anologies for that matter) always gives me a good laugh. That said ... while I agree that popularity doesn't always equate to quality, some times it does. I'd argue that WoW's continued success and dominance in the market is a reflection of the game's quality.
It all depends on what frame of reference you're speaking about/to. If this is about the general population as a whole, then popularity will be the best indicator since WoW managed to capture these people and keep them from looking towards other games. Surely, retention could be a testament of quality and this is not even limited to just video games, this can be applied for many other types of services.
If we're talking to video game critics, then popularity will not be a good indicator. Like the movies, we're talking about people that like to explore games and delve deep into the systems, mechanics and communities involves. The average joe never heard of Hurt Locker but that didn't stop it from lacking quality or winning awards.
It's safe to say there are varying degrees/levels of quality and I think many forum posters are of the critic breed here at MMORPG.com.
I agree on some parts with the OP, like the global chat.
I don't agree that WoW 'caused the NGE' SWG was bleeding subs from launch.
I continued playing EQ2 at the same time as I played WoW for a while, and there was a lot of hate already back then, that game did bleed a significant amount of players to WoW, which caused a whole lot of people to loose friends and guilds to fall apart.
But it was deserved, the game was worse than WoW at that time (imo) and it simply didn't stick with that many people like WoW did.
Feel free to use my referral link for SW:TOR if you want to test out the game. You'll get some special unlocks!
The whole McDonald's anology (and most anologies for that matter) always gives me a good laugh. That said ... while I agree that popularity doesn't always equate to quality, some times it does. I'd argue that WoW's continued success and dominance in the market is a reflection of the game's quality.
And the fact this dominance is reflected by a monthly subscription fee that needs to be "earned" by Blizzard every month again.
Month after month after month.
Just like any other mmorpg.
There is your difference of why this "earned" monthly subscription fee is not only based on "popularity" but also on the game's "quality".
Without that quality, the game would not retain that monthly paying player base for 6 years straight.
How is that any different than going to McDonalds once a week. You go back because of the "quality." Just because WoW and any other p2p mmo requires a monthly subscription somehow makes the McDonald's analogy less apt? That's a distinction without any difference.
PPL hate WOW cause its a better game than the crap of a game those ppl are already playing. And since the game those ppl are acutally playing isn't worth playing.. they come to forums to went out on the king of games.
The whole McDonald's anology (and most anologies for that matter) always gives me a good laugh. That said ... while I agree that popularity doesn't always equate to quality, some times it does. I'd argue that WoW's continued success and dominance in the market is a reflection of the game's quality.
And the fact this dominance is reflected by a monthly subscription fee that needs to be "earned" by Blizzard every month again.
Month after month after month.
Just like any other mmorpg.
There is your difference of why this "earned" monthly subscription fee is not only based on "popularity" but also on the game's "quality".
Without that quality, the game would not retain that monthly paying player base for 6 years straight.
How is that any different than going to McDonalds once a week. You go back because of the "quality." Just because WoW and any other p2p mmo requires a monthly subscription somehow makes the McDonald's analogy less apt? That's a distinction without any difference.
Not to mention that there are a lot of people who just let the subscription continue without even playing it for months on end.
I have a lot of guildies who pop in every so many months just to check in on the game or to find another guildie. These people have even admitted to the fact that they just let the sub run because they *might* get the urge to play again someday. Even had a couple of people not notice that they were still being billed because they forgot to cancel the sub (Guildie who had a second account for his brother when he was living with them. Brother went off to Iraq for 2 years and then was stationed in Hawaii for another 18 months - the whole time the account was active and not being used. Only reason he remembered it was because he recieved one of the scam-mails about the account being hacked...)
This of course happens in other games too, specially when people are waiting for new content.
There are 3 types of people in the world. 1.) Those who make things happen 2.) Those who watch things happen 3.) And those who wonder "What the %#*& just happened?!"
It only shows that McDonalds is probably the best "quality" offer for most people in ITS sector of fast food chains.
I emphasized the word "probably" because that's your choice of words not mine. It's VERY VERY telling why, using your own analogy, you didn't say McDonalds IS the best restaurant. That's the only logical conclusion you can reach if you want to take your WoW analogy to its end.
The fact that you decide to say "probably" is because you know that McDonalds is not the best restaurant, because there is no measure of "best."
Best is opinion. It's opinion in WoW and in McDonalds and subscription/sales numbers will never change that.
I don't hate WoW as much as I dislike the community. While it's not the worst gaming community I've seen (EQOA and WAR take that prize), the sheer amount of people playing that game makes it very likely to run into some complete idiots at almost every turn.
It only shows that McDonalds is probably the best "quality" offer for most people in ITS sector of fast food chains.
I emphasized the word "probably" because that's your choice of words not mine. It's VERY VERY telling why, using your own analogy, you didn't say McDonalds IS the best restaurant. That's the only logical conclusion you can reach if you want to take your WoW analogy to its end.
The fact that you decide to say "probably" is because you know that McDonalds is not the best restaurant, because there is no measure of "best."
Best is opinion. It's opinion in WoW and in McDonalds and subscription/sales numbers will never change that.
You forgot the most important part of my sentence: "probably the best "quality" for most people in ITS sector.
I didn't say for all people, because I can't speak for all people and I even added probably !!!
I never said it was "da best", only that the "quality" has to be there in whatever branche you compete in to get that kind of "success".
WOW and MacDonalds don't compete with each other. They compete in two complete seperate branches.
One in PC video games, the other in the fast food chains. Both are succesful in THEIR branches.
And popularity is "free" , "success" is based on money.
First of all.... you decide to marginalize McDonalds by breaking it up into components like "sector." What does that mean?
All you need to know is that WoW is the most profitable MMO of all time and McDonalds is the most profitable restaurant of all time. Based on your reasoning, therefor, each is the "BEST" mmo and restaurant respectively.
I'm saying, their quality and success are tied together, but their success cannot be the measure of BEST because BEST cannot QUANTITATIVELY be measured. It's like saying Brad Pitt is the BEST looking male because he sells the most magazines if he's on the cover. Or, AVATAR is teh best movie of all time because more people paid to see it than any other movie.
Usually, when something is considered "the best" based solely on money and popularity, it's the lowest common denominator. WoW's success is largely based on the fact it is accessible to many players with 7 year old computers. McDonalds success and financial prowess is largely based on tasty food at a cheap price. Neither of the aforementioned factors speak to its quality, though admittedly, each does a few things very well.
Quality and Success go hand in hand. But it doesn't mean that ADDING quality AND success = BEST.
Avatar was the most grossing movie of all time, yet Hurt Locker won BEST Picture. And guess what?! I Just because Hurt Locker won Best picture mean it was the Best movie. Stop trying to justify your SUBJECTIVE opinion with OBJECTIVE numbers that have nothing to do with one another.
I think ppl get too caught up in the stupid WoW / MacDonalds analogy. It becomes their generic answer to any thread about WoW's popularity. Some gamers might get frustrated when trying to have a conversation about why ppl dislike WoW and the reponse is "WoW is like MacDonalds". It doesnt really make sense. You can say it has too many instances, it's become too gear focused, you don't like the quest system, it's not immersive enough, etc. Those are some of the reasons I quit playing after a couple of months a few years ago. The MacDonalds, Brittney Spears, and Walmart comparisons are just comments made by trolls who get off on pissing ppl off, judging by the last few posts, anyway.
It only shows that McDonalds is probably the best "quality" offer for most people in ITS sector of fast food chains.
I emphasized the word "probably" because that's your choice of words not mine. It's VERY VERY telling why, using your own analogy, you didn't say McDonalds IS the best restaurant. That's the only logical conclusion you can reach if you want to take your WoW analogy to its end.
The fact that you decide to say "probably" is because you know that McDonalds is not the best restaurant, because there is no measure of "best."
Best is opinion. It's opinion in WoW and in McDonalds and subscription/sales numbers will never change that.
You forgot the most important part of my sentence: "probably the best "quality" for most people in ITS sector.
I didn't say for all people, because I can't speak for all people and I even added probably !!!
I never said it was "da best", only that the "quality" has to be there in whatever branche you compete in to get that kind of "success".
WOW and MacDonalds don't compete with each other. They compete in two complete seperate branches.
One in PC video games, the other in the fast food chains. Both are succesful in THEIR branches.
And popularity is "free" , "success" is based on money. Money that will not come if you don't offer "quality" in your branche.
But at the same time Popularity isnt always a sign of Quality.
In a lot of cases something can be popular without being of a higher quality than something else in its genre. A lot of 'trends' follow nothing more than popularity and often ignore quality. Like clothing trends for example. They can have a fancy logo on it and be of no better quality than the clothing that has a generic label, but because a lot of people like it and it gets talked about and advertised more than the generic brand, more people will be apt to buying it and wearing it because everyone else is.
There are 3 types of people in the world. 1.) Those who make things happen 2.) Those who watch things happen 3.) And those who wonder "What the %#*& just happened?!"
I think ppl get too caught up in the stupid WoW / MacDonalds analogy. It becomes their generic answer to any thread about WoW's popularity. Some gamers might get frustrated when trying to have a conversation about why ppl dislike WoW and the reponse is "WoW is like MacDonalds". It doesnt really make sense. You can say it has too many instances, it's become too gear focused, you don't like the quest system, it's not immersive enough, etc. Those are some of the reasons I quit playing after a couple of months a few years ago. The MacDonalds, Brittney Spears, and Walmart comparisons are just comments made by trolls who get off on pissing ppl off, judging by the last few posts, anyway.
Disliking wow is not because it's like McDonalds. I have many reasons for disliking wow and many reasons why I liked it. The McDonalds analogy is solely for people who argue WoW is the best mmo because it makes the most money and has the most subscribers.
McDonalds makes the most money and is the most popular as well. McDonalds analogy is a retort to your reasons for liking wow, not a reason for not liking it...
First of all.... you decide to marginalize McDonalds by breaking it up into components like "sector." What does that mean?
All you need to know is that WoW is the most profitable MMO of all time and McDonalds is the most profitable restaurant of all time. Based on your reasoning, therefor, each is the "BEST" mmo and restaurant respectively.
I'm saying, their quality and success are tied together, but their success cannot be the measure of BEST because BEST cannot QUANTITATIVELY be measured. It's like saying Brad Pitt is the BEST looking male because he sells the most magazines if he's on the cover. Or, AVATAR is teh best movie of all time because more people paid to see it than any other movie.
Usually, when something is considered "the best" based solely on money and popularity, it's the lowest common denominator. WoW's success is largely based on the fact it is accessible to many players with 7 year old computers. McDonalds success and financial prowess is largely based on tasty food at a cheap price. Neither of the aforementioned factors speak to its quality, though admittedly, each does a few things very well.
Quality and Success go hand in hand. But it doesn't mean that ADDING quality AND success = BEST.
Avatar was the most grossing movie of all time, yet Hurt Locker won BEST Picture.
First: I defined the sector of WOW: PC video games.
Second: The sector of MacDonalds : fast food chains.
Competition for WOW are other PC video games (like AoC, War, COD MW2, Spore...), competition for MacDonalds is other fast food chains (Wendys, etc ...).
It is you who keep mentioning the "best" argument.
I only speak of the needed offer of "quality" to be "succesful" in your economic activity.
You can't keep up "succes" if you don't offer quality, not in the PC video branche, nor in the fast food chains.
Now explain me please what does a fast food market and a PC video game market have in common ?
Nothing.
Perfect.
Analogies are not designed to be taken literally.
People offered reasons for why WoW is the best. Those that do not agree take the same reasons that you offer and show you a clear example where it doesn't fit.
Why don't you explain why subscription numbers, profit, etc. can be used as PROOF that Wow is "the best" and the same reasons cannot be used to show that McDonalds or Avatar is the "best?"
WoW is a very very popular game. No one in their right mind denies that, but how do you take that and transform that into the be all and end all of mmos?
I think ppl get too caught up in the stupid WoW / MacDonalds analogy. It becomes their generic answer to any thread about WoW's popularity. Some gamers might get frustrated when trying to have a conversation about why ppl dislike WoW and the reponse is "WoW is like MacDonalds". It doesnt really make sense. You can say it has too many instances, it's become too gear focused, you don't like the quest system, it's not immersive enough, etc. Those are some of the reasons I quit playing after a couple of months a few years ago. The MacDonalds, Brittney Spears, and Walmart comparisons are just comments made by trolls who get off on pissing ppl off, judging by the last few posts, anyway.
Disliking wow is not because it's like McDonalds. I have many reasons for disliking wow and many reasons why I liked it. The McDonalds analogy is solely for people who argue WoW is the best mmo because it makes the most money and has the most subscribers.
McDonalds makes the most money and is the most popular as well. McDonalds analogy is a retort to your reasons for liking wow, not a reason for not liking it...
HAHa That's a good one.
Answer me please what does a fast food market and a PC video game market have in common ?
Nothing.
I'll make it very simple. Why is WoW the Best mmo? Answer that and I will provide my reply.
First of all.... you decide to marginalize McDonalds by breaking it up into components like "sector." What does that mean?
All you need to know is that WoW is the most profitable MMO of all time and McDonalds is the most profitable restaurant of all time. Based on your reasoning, therefor, each is the "BEST" mmo and restaurant respectively.
I'm saying, their quality and success are tied together, but their success cannot be the measure of BEST because BEST cannot QUANTITATIVELY be measured. It's like saying Brad Pitt is the BEST looking male because he sells the most magazines if he's on the cover. Or, AVATAR is teh best movie of all time because more people paid to see it than any other movie.
Usually, when something is considered "the best" based solely on money and popularity, it's the lowest common denominator. WoW's success is largely based on the fact it is accessible to many players with 7 year old computers. McDonalds success and financial prowess is largely based on tasty food at a cheap price. Neither of the aforementioned factors speak to its quality, though admittedly, each does a few things very well.
Quality and Success go hand in hand. But it doesn't mean that ADDING quality AND success = BEST.
Avatar was the most grossing movie of all time, yet Hurt Locker won BEST Picture.
First: I defined the sector of WOW: PC video games.
Second: The sector of MacDonalds : fast food chains.
Competition for WOW are other PC video games (like AoC, War, COD MW2, Spore...), competition for MacDonalds is other fast food chains (Wendys, etc ...).
It is you who keep mentioning the "best" argument.
I only speak of the needed offer of "quality" to be "succesful" in your economic activity.
You can't keep up "succes" if you don't offer quality, not in the PC video branche, nor in the fast food chains.
Now explain me please what does a fast food market and a PC video game market have in common ?
Nothing.
Perfect.
The problem is you are looking at comparing the two things in a competetive nature, where as others are using them as parallels in an arguement.
No one is saying WoW vs McD.
What people are trying to say is looking at the two and drawing parallels you will see that just because McD's sells the most burgers and gets the most customers doesnt mean they sell a better product, or that thier burgers are any better than any other fast food resturant.
The same can be said about WoW. Just because a lot of people play it doesnt mean it is of the highest quality gameplay wise.
All you are doing is twisting the argument to fit your perception so you can come out on top while making others look like they are idiots for bringing it up in the first place.
There are 3 types of people in the world. 1.) Those who make things happen 2.) Those who watch things happen 3.) And those who wonder "What the %#*& just happened?!"
The whole McDonald's anology (and most anologies for that matter) always gives me a good laugh. That said ... while I agree that popularity doesn't always equate to quality, some times it does. I'd argue that WoW's continued success and dominance in the market is a reflection of the game's quality.
And the fact this dominance is reflected by a monthly subscription fee that needs to be "earned" by Blizzard every month again.
Month after month after month.
Just like any other mmorpg.
There is your difference of why this "earned" monthly subscription fee is not only based on "popularity" but also on the game's "quality".
Without that quality, the game would not retain that monthly paying player base for 6 years straight.
How is that any different than going to McDonalds once a week. You go back because of the "quality." Just because WoW and any other p2p mmo requires a monthly subscription somehow makes the McDonald's analogy less apt? That's a distinction without any difference.
And this is why analogies are luaghable: you can make any arguement with using any random point of reference. Why not just compare WoW to the Beatles? The Beatles were (are) popular, they continue to repeatedly sell ... etc. All analogies result in is circular logic.
@LordMunkus ... tone down the rhetoric and maybe you can expect a response ... just suggesting.
I think ppl get too caught up in the stupid WoW / MacDonalds analogy. It becomes their generic answer to any thread about WoW's popularity. Some gamers might get frustrated when trying to have a conversation about why ppl dislike WoW and the reponse is "WoW is like MacDonalds". It doesnt really make sense. You can say it has too many instances, it's become too gear focused, you don't like the quest system, it's not immersive enough, etc. Those are some of the reasons I quit playing after a couple of months a few years ago. The MacDonalds, Brittney Spears, and Walmart comparisons are just comments made by trolls who get off on pissing ppl off, judging by the last few posts, anyway.
Disliking wow is not because it's like McDonalds. I have many reasons for disliking wow and many reasons why I liked it. The McDonalds analogy is solely for people who argue WoW is the best mmo because it makes the most money and has the most subscribers.
McDonalds makes the most money and is the most popular as well. McDonalds analogy is a retort to your reasons for liking wow, not a reason for not liking it...
I understand what your saying. But I still think the WoW / MacDonalds analogy is mostly made by ppl not articulate enough to explain their dislike of WoW or just wanting to flame the "fanboi". Like you said, it's a retort for reasons for liking WoW. So if you like WoW, you like generic mmorpgs or only like it because it is the most popular. It's is a comment meant purely to insult the original poster and not productive to the conversation.
I think ppl get too caught up in the stupid WoW / MacDonalds analogy. It becomes their generic answer to any thread about WoW's popularity. Some gamers might get frustrated when trying to have a conversation about why ppl dislike WoW and the reponse is "WoW is like MacDonalds". It doesnt really make sense. You can say it has too many instances, it's become too gear focused, you don't like the quest system, it's not immersive enough, etc. Those are some of the reasons I quit playing after a couple of months a few years ago. The MacDonalds, Brittney Spears, and Walmart comparisons are just comments made by trolls who get off on pissing ppl off, judging by the last few posts, anyway.
Disliking wow is not because it's like McDonalds. I have many reasons for disliking wow and many reasons why I liked it. The McDonalds analogy is solely for people who argue WoW is the best mmo because it makes the most money and has the most subscribers.
McDonalds makes the most money and is the most popular as well. McDonalds analogy is a retort to your reasons for liking wow, not a reason for not liking it...
HAHa That's a good one.
Answer me please what does a fast food market and a PC video game market have in common ?
Nothing.
Actually this is very easy to answer.
Both are examples of businesses that sell goods or services to the general public. They thrive off customer money, but selling or offering services/products to these customers to compete with other companies within thier fields.
The Video Game market does the same thing as the Fast Food market: They sell products to customers.
There are 3 types of people in the world. 1.) Those who make things happen 2.) Those who watch things happen 3.) And those who wonder "What the %#*& just happened?!"
Just like MacDonalds offers quality in ITS sector of fast food chains (in compettition with other fast food chains).
Im sorry, but out of the whole post... its this line that gets my attention.
Its my opinion that McDonalds gets as much buisness as it does because they offer convenience. I dont believe quality is in their buisness model lol. The use of meat that recieves no grade (for quality) worries me at times... but I often forget about that fact when im hungry and its convient to pull up at the drive through.
As to WOW... perhaps people are starting to dislike it because its becoming to "convenient". I dunno...
I think ppl get too caught up in the stupid WoW / MacDonalds analogy. It becomes their generic answer to any thread about WoW's popularity. Some gamers might get frustrated when trying to have a conversation about why ppl dislike WoW and the reponse is "WoW is like MacDonalds". It doesnt really make sense. You can say it has too many instances, it's become too gear focused, you don't like the quest system, it's not immersive enough, etc. Those are some of the reasons I quit playing after a couple of months a few years ago. The MacDonalds, Brittney Spears, and Walmart comparisons are just comments made by trolls who get off on pissing ppl off, judging by the last few posts, anyway.
Disliking wow is not because it's like McDonalds. I have many reasons for disliking wow and many reasons why I liked it. The McDonalds analogy is solely for people who argue WoW is the best mmo because it makes the most money and has the most subscribers.
McDonalds makes the most money and is the most popular as well. McDonalds analogy is a retort to your reasons for liking wow, not a reason for not liking it...
I understand what your saying. But I still think the WoW / MacDonalds analogy is mostly made by ppl not articulate enough to explain their dislike of WoW or just wanting to flame the "fanboi". Like you said, it's a retort for reasons for liking WoW. So if you like WoW, you like generic mmorpgs or only like it because it is the most popular. It's is a comment meant purely to insult the original poster and not productive to the conversation.
In most cases the analogy is thrown in after someone tries to state their reasons for not liking WoW and gets flamed by the fans.
Anyone who states their reasons for not liking the game are most often attacked for their reasons (because apparently people are not allowed to have different opinions on the subjects) with crap like "Link your amory page and show me your ICC 25man Hard Mode gear or STFU" or "Well you must be wrong because 11million other people dont agree with you"
That last line is usually what invokes the use of the analogy because rational people try to show that just because a lot of people do it, it doesnt mean its the best thing to do.
There are 3 types of people in the world. 1.) Those who make things happen 2.) Those who watch things happen 3.) And those who wonder "What the %#*& just happened?!"
Comments
If WoW "means nothing" then why does it occupy so much of your time?
Why would you scour the boards so incessantly looking for any reason to post your hatred of WoW?
If WoW truly was so meaningless then you wouldnt post about it at all.
Because im bored at work during breaks and enjoy mmo discussions? Also I don't only post on WoW forums. I post on Eve forums and the pub and general console games and off topic and War and Ryzom and I could go on and on...
With that said im not gonna go all crazy and start acting like people have mental issues because they don't like a video game.
It's just not that serious.
Really? So, what part of "WoW means nothing and the players mean even less" is open to discussion.
The bashing of the game or the insulting sweeping generalisation of its players?
Heres a tip: if you want a real discussion dont call people worthless.
What an absolutely illogical and absurd argument. You're comparing apples and oranges. You're comparing getting fast food and playing an online game.
The PROPER frame of reference between McDonalds and WoW is its POPULARITY. Many WoW fanbois argue that popularity/subsciption numbers means that Wow is the "best." Using YOUR argument, that means since McDonalds makes the most money around the world and more people go to McDonalds than any other fast food restaurant, THEREFORE McDonalds is the "Best" restaurant on earth.
Do you get the analogy now? Or more importantly, do you realize how most subscriptions =/ best? Maybe i'm asking too much (lol).
The whole McDonald's anology (and most anologies for that matter) always gives me a good laugh. That said ... while I agree that popularity doesn't always equate to quality, some times it does. I'd argue that WoW's continued success and dominance in the market is a reflection of the game's quality.
The issue isn't whether Wow is good, wonderful, stupendous, great, or whatever (insert adjective here)...
It's about the ONE adjective that WoW fanbois use.... BEST. The sole basis for the argument is the games popularity. The popularity can be objectively quantified (i.e. number of active subscriptions). But "Best" is a subjective determination.
I for one think that WoW is a very good to great game. I have the problem with subscription numbers = BEST game.
With that said, the McDonalds argument still holds because they have great fries and the Big Mac which people love. If the food didn't taste good, people woulnd't go back. Similarly, if the gameplay or other aspects of wow weren't good enough, people wouldn't go back.
If the McDonalds comparison leaves a bad taste in your mouth (pun intended), then AVATAR is as good of a comparison. Avatar is the highest grossing film of all time. It has a lot going for it. Great action, amazing graphics, etc etc. Therefore, it's also the best movie of all time. Before Avatar, since Titanic was the highest grossing movie of all time, it was the best movie until Avatar.
The issue, as you put it, isn't whether popularity does or doesn't equate to quality. I would argue that primarily all instances of popularity have an element of quality. Rarily will you see something qualitiatively subpar also be the most popular, but the question is one of degree. It has to do with the word "best."
And I will argue that WoWs popularity is riding the wave of old school Blizzard games like Diablo 1 and 2, Warcraft 1,2 and 3, Starcraft and WoWs first 2 years. Nobody in their right mind would ever doubt Blizzards quality and craftmenship that was put into all of those games but we also need to remember that Blizzard today is not the same Blizzard Pre BC. Since that change at Blizzard WoWs "game design" * and community quality has gone down significantly while maintaining a high level of polish.
WoW pulled in high numbers early on based on past Blizzard products and the initial overall quality of WoW. These high numbers in turn brought in all the non gamers to the game and got them hooked on the addiction that is obtaining new shiny gear. There's a great many people who play WoW and do not play other games at all and do not care that there are other choices in MMOs out there because WoW is where all their friends play. Even I resubbed last summer and when my guildies all asked my why I was back my only answer was simpley "I wanted to play with you guys". Since then though I have just recently canceled my subscription again because of several different reasons.
As far as the McDonalds analogy goes it's a perfectly valid one. McDonalds clearly sells more hamburgers and fries than anyone else but will anyone ever argue that they have the best burgers and fries around ? Clearly their market dominance is a reflection of their quality is it not ?
*The game design I am referring to is the constant carrot on a stick cattle herding that is the heroic badge farm into the 10 man raid bottleneck. Take for example you have 13 people on in guild at raid time, 10 people can go but that means 3 people have to be left out of the raid and playing with their friends. This to me is terrible for guild morale and creates elitist cliques within the game. As someone who was an officer and raid leader in guild I constantly got whispers from people feeling down and left out and wondered why they were even logging into the game because they we're left out for no other reason than the raid was full.
This bottleneck is nothing more than an artificial time sink designed to keep the loot addicts coming back month after month, it is not designed into the game to be a fun game play element.
It all depends on what frame of reference you're speaking about/to. If this is about the general population as a whole, then popularity will be the best indicator since WoW managed to capture these people and keep them from looking towards other games. Surely, retention could be a testament of quality and this is not even limited to just video games, this can be applied for many other types of services.
If we're talking to video game critics, then popularity will not be a good indicator. Like the movies, we're talking about people that like to explore games and delve deep into the systems, mechanics and communities involves. The average joe never heard of Hurt Locker but that didn't stop it from lacking quality or winning awards.
It's safe to say there are varying degrees/levels of quality and I think many forum posters are of the critic breed here at MMORPG.com.
I agree on some parts with the OP, like the global chat.
I don't agree that WoW 'caused the NGE' SWG was bleeding subs from launch.
I continued playing EQ2 at the same time as I played WoW for a while, and there was a lot of hate already back then, that game did bleed a significant amount of players to WoW, which caused a whole lot of people to loose friends and guilds to fall apart.
But it was deserved, the game was worse than WoW at that time (imo) and it simply didn't stick with that many people like WoW did.
Feel free to use my referral link for SW:TOR if you want to test out the game. You'll get some special unlocks!
How is that any different than going to McDonalds once a week. You go back because of the "quality." Just because WoW and any other p2p mmo requires a monthly subscription somehow makes the McDonald's analogy less apt? That's a distinction without any difference.
PPL hate WOW cause its a better game than the crap of a game those ppl are already playing. And since the game those ppl are acutally playing isn't worth playing.. they come to forums to went out on the king of games.
Not to mention that there are a lot of people who just let the subscription continue without even playing it for months on end.
I have a lot of guildies who pop in every so many months just to check in on the game or to find another guildie. These people have even admitted to the fact that they just let the sub run because they *might* get the urge to play again someday. Even had a couple of people not notice that they were still being billed because they forgot to cancel the sub (Guildie who had a second account for his brother when he was living with them. Brother went off to Iraq for 2 years and then was stationed in Hawaii for another 18 months - the whole time the account was active and not being used. Only reason he remembered it was because he recieved one of the scam-mails about the account being hacked...)
This of course happens in other games too, specially when people are waiting for new content.
There are 3 types of people in the world.
1.) Those who make things happen
2.) Those who watch things happen
3.) And those who wonder "What the %#*& just happened?!"
I emphasized the word "probably" because that's your choice of words not mine. It's VERY VERY telling why, using your own analogy, you didn't say McDonalds IS the best restaurant. That's the only logical conclusion you can reach if you want to take your WoW analogy to its end.
The fact that you decide to say "probably" is because you know that McDonalds is not the best restaurant, because there is no measure of "best."
Best is opinion. It's opinion in WoW and in McDonalds and subscription/sales numbers will never change that.
I don't hate WoW as much as I dislike the community. While it's not the worst gaming community I've seen (EQOA and WAR take that prize), the sheer amount of people playing that game makes it very likely to run into some complete idiots at almost every turn.
First of all.... you decide to marginalize McDonalds by breaking it up into components like "sector." What does that mean?
All you need to know is that WoW is the most profitable MMO of all time and McDonalds is the most profitable restaurant of all time. Based on your reasoning, therefor, each is the "BEST" mmo and restaurant respectively.
I'm saying, their quality and success are tied together, but their success cannot be the measure of BEST because BEST cannot QUANTITATIVELY be measured. It's like saying Brad Pitt is the BEST looking male because he sells the most magazines if he's on the cover. Or, AVATAR is teh best movie of all time because more people paid to see it than any other movie.
Usually, when something is considered "the best" based solely on money and popularity, it's the lowest common denominator. WoW's success is largely based on the fact it is accessible to many players with 7 year old computers. McDonalds success and financial prowess is largely based on tasty food at a cheap price. Neither of the aforementioned factors speak to its quality, though admittedly, each does a few things very well.
Quality and Success go hand in hand. But it doesn't mean that ADDING quality AND success = BEST.
Avatar was the most grossing movie of all time, yet Hurt Locker won BEST Picture. And guess what?! I Just because Hurt Locker won Best picture mean it was the Best movie. Stop trying to justify your SUBJECTIVE opinion with OBJECTIVE numbers that have nothing to do with one another.
I think ppl get too caught up in the stupid WoW / MacDonalds analogy. It becomes their generic answer to any thread about WoW's popularity. Some gamers might get frustrated when trying to have a conversation about why ppl dislike WoW and the reponse is "WoW is like MacDonalds". It doesnt really make sense. You can say it has too many instances, it's become too gear focused, you don't like the quest system, it's not immersive enough, etc. Those are some of the reasons I quit playing after a couple of months a few years ago. The MacDonalds, Brittney Spears, and Walmart comparisons are just comments made by trolls who get off on pissing ppl off, judging by the last few posts, anyway.
But at the same time Popularity isnt always a sign of Quality.
In a lot of cases something can be popular without being of a higher quality than something else in its genre. A lot of 'trends' follow nothing more than popularity and often ignore quality. Like clothing trends for example. They can have a fancy logo on it and be of no better quality than the clothing that has a generic label, but because a lot of people like it and it gets talked about and advertised more than the generic brand, more people will be apt to buying it and wearing it because everyone else is.
There are 3 types of people in the world.
1.) Those who make things happen
2.) Those who watch things happen
3.) And those who wonder "What the %#*& just happened?!"
I really don't hate woW but I do hate the raiding end game.
Disliking wow is not because it's like McDonalds. I have many reasons for disliking wow and many reasons why I liked it. The McDonalds analogy is solely for people who argue WoW is the best mmo because it makes the most money and has the most subscribers.
McDonalds makes the most money and is the most popular as well. McDonalds analogy is a retort to your reasons for liking wow, not a reason for not liking it...
Analogies are not designed to be taken literally.
People offered reasons for why WoW is the best. Those that do not agree take the same reasons that you offer and show you a clear example where it doesn't fit.
Why don't you explain why subscription numbers, profit, etc. can be used as PROOF that Wow is "the best" and the same reasons cannot be used to show that McDonalds or Avatar is the "best?"
WoW is a very very popular game. No one in their right mind denies that, but how do you take that and transform that into the be all and end all of mmos?
I'll make it very simple. Why is WoW the Best mmo? Answer that and I will provide my reply.
The problem is you are looking at comparing the two things in a competetive nature, where as others are using them as parallels in an arguement.
No one is saying WoW vs McD.
What people are trying to say is looking at the two and drawing parallels you will see that just because McD's sells the most burgers and gets the most customers doesnt mean they sell a better product, or that thier burgers are any better than any other fast food resturant.
The same can be said about WoW. Just because a lot of people play it doesnt mean it is of the highest quality gameplay wise.
All you are doing is twisting the argument to fit your perception so you can come out on top while making others look like they are idiots for bringing it up in the first place.
There are 3 types of people in the world.
1.) Those who make things happen
2.) Those who watch things happen
3.) And those who wonder "What the %#*& just happened?!"
And this is why analogies are luaghable: you can make any arguement with using any random point of reference. Why not just compare WoW to the Beatles? The Beatles were (are) popular, they continue to repeatedly sell ... etc. All analogies result in is circular logic.
@LordMunkus ... tone down the rhetoric and maybe you can expect a response ... just suggesting.
I understand what your saying. But I still think the WoW / MacDonalds analogy is mostly made by ppl not articulate enough to explain their dislike of WoW or just wanting to flame the "fanboi". Like you said, it's a retort for reasons for liking WoW. So if you like WoW, you like generic mmorpgs or only like it because it is the most popular. It's is a comment meant purely to insult the original poster and not productive to the conversation.
Actually this is very easy to answer.
Both are examples of businesses that sell goods or services to the general public. They thrive off customer money, but selling or offering services/products to these customers to compete with other companies within thier fields.
The Video Game market does the same thing as the Fast Food market: They sell products to customers.
There are 3 types of people in the world.
1.) Those who make things happen
2.) Those who watch things happen
3.) And those who wonder "What the %#*& just happened?!"
Im sorry, but out of the whole post... its this line that gets my attention.
Its my opinion that McDonalds gets as much buisness as it does because they offer convenience. I dont believe quality is in their buisness model lol. The use of meat that recieves no grade (for quality) worries me at times... but I often forget about that fact when im hungry and its convient to pull up at the drive through.
As to WOW... perhaps people are starting to dislike it because its becoming to "convenient". I dunno...
In most cases the analogy is thrown in after someone tries to state their reasons for not liking WoW and gets flamed by the fans.
Anyone who states their reasons for not liking the game are most often attacked for their reasons (because apparently people are not allowed to have different opinions on the subjects) with crap like "Link your amory page and show me your ICC 25man Hard Mode gear or STFU" or "Well you must be wrong because 11million other people dont agree with you"
That last line is usually what invokes the use of the analogy because rational people try to show that just because a lot of people do it, it doesnt mean its the best thing to do.
There are 3 types of people in the world.
1.) Those who make things happen
2.) Those who watch things happen
3.) And those who wonder "What the %#*& just happened?!"