General: Community Spotlight: An MMO Without Progression?

MikeB

This week’s Community Spotlight focuses on the thread “Would you play a MMO without character progression?” by jusomdude. In the thread, jusomdude wonders if we would play an MMO without character progression since he believes that most players are into end-game raiding these days:

“It seems many people are all about end game raiding these days.

So would you play a MMO that was all about raiding, and gear progression with no character progression?

You could still customize your character with talent trees or something.

If there was a game like this, I think there would be a ton more raid content than current games, since developers wouldn't have to make content for leveling.

Personally, I don't know if I'd play a game like this, because I like advancing my character through levels and abilities more than just getting new shiny pieces of gear. And I don't like raiding that much.”

Read Community Spotlight: An MMO Without Progression?

onelesslight

Makes me think of Guild Wars, if you replace "gear" with "skills and abilities." Of course, Guild Wars has some leveling, just not a lot of it.

I personally love character progression, it's the opiate for which I play, and so I don't think I would personally play a game like this. In many ways, it would be too similar to RL sports, IMHO.

chriswsm

I would certainly give it a go however I dont know how long the game would hold me.

PyrateLV

No

Id rather progress my Characters skills and abilities. Not through levels though.

Gear should progress through higher crafting skills and abilities.

Raiding should be part of the world content and be done for the fun and adventure.

Dendro

I'm with PyrateLV on this one. Plus, there would have to be excellent content to play through to keep my interests.

raamoz

Unsure of what to think about the idea. I would've tried the game, but not sure how much I'd like it. Though thinking that when I still actively played an MMO I only logged to raid and rarely other things.

A MMO with only the group/team aspect does sound interesting though, but in the end might just end up being not enough in-depth outside of the grouping aspects (Even if that's almost the point)

And I personally have difficulties finding the motivation to level in most MMOs, so skipping it would be nice, I guess. But thinking of not even having the leveling part there just feels.. wrong.

Thyris

ugh, not me, I abhor raiding and most who do it.

spookydom

Well, as with all games i would try it out with an open a mind as I could muster. In principle though i'm not to sure. I'm more of a player who enjoys the journey than the destination. Like an above poster says the content would have to be pretty special for me to stick around also.

Grailchaser

Well, these games *already* exist in multitude.

For starters there's the myriad of first person shooters. What's Counterstrike if its not an online game with nothing but raiding and no skill progression?

And then there's Second Life.  Most of their Combat Meters have no advancement (except a few that reward time online and not effort).  What we find in SL is that those who spend the most time online fighting generally become the best at the actual hand/keyboard skill of fighting, rather than the imaginary character-based skill of fighting.

Much like any other first person shooter game online.

 

 

likenew

Sounds like UO, I liked UO, and still play when they give me a free month, which hasn't been for a while sadly.

Mightfox

This would probably make MMOs more seriously games instead of treadmills of boring, painfully simplistic combat. Then maybe MMO PvP could end up comparable to versus fighting games, RTSes, and such. I would totally be on board for this. The PvE would be enjoyable like Monster Hunter, just straight up boss battles. AKA ACTUALLY ENJOYABLE GAMEPLAY. The PvP would be like aforementioned genres. Mind games and reflexes and strategies.

 

I'd be on board for this very quickly. I already enjoy guild wars, but while I like how it is set up, I sort of wish the game itself was different in terms of combat and stuff. Not quite the perfect "serious" MMO-style combat I have in mind.

Death1942

Isn't that just a simulation though?

 

An MMO without progression (to me) is just a world that you can play in and to me that is exactly what simulations do.

 

As for if it will work...not really.  You need progression of some kind (in all games) otherwise it will drive off too many players.

LordDemi

chriswsm writes:

I would certainly give it a go however I dont know how long the game would hold me.

New Post Quote

5/13/10 4:57:01 PM

 

 

lol same thing and I wanna add that games like that are boring.... although not all of them (rumble fighter still holds me xD)

Sykomyke

Take a look at most console and PC games these days.  What's the ONE thing in common among nearly all of them?   Achievments.  Achievments are there for games with no visual progression.  (and in some there to go along with progression).

This is why WoW put in achievments, after the carrot of leveling has been lifted, they then gave you achievments to back and work for.  This ensures that they will continue to have people who want to attempt to do everything, even if it's impossible.

Now I could see a non-progression based MMO working if they made earning your skills the progression.  Take for example Quake Wars: Enemy Territory.  This is a perfect example of a game that rewards USING skills to earn better ones, and only for the ones that you use.  Using your secondary weapon?  Ok, your Light Firearms skill goes up a little bit.  Once you reach a bar for it, you get a bonus and possibly something additional in your Light Firearms skills.  In the warzone actively damaging enemies?  Ok, your Battle Sense earns a few more points.  Reach enough battle sense and you spawn with an extra clip of ammo.

Imagine an MMO somewhere along those lines, where skills you USED or activities you participated in, were how your character developed.  Not by an experience bar, but just by your characters experience.  It's a system based on how the person wants to play and grows based on HOW they play.  Somewhat similar to Oblivion I guess..

Dosska

Originally posted by Sykomyke

Take a look at most console and PC games these days.  What's the ONE thing in common among nearly all of them?   Achievments.  Achievments are there for games with no visual progression.  (and in some there to go along with progression).

This is why WoW put in achievments, after the carrot of leveling has been lifted, they then gave you achievments to back and work for.  This ensures that they will continue to have people who want to attempt to do everything, even if it's impossible.

Now I could see a non-progression based MMO working if they made earning your skills the progression.  Take for example Quake Wars: Enemy Territory.  This is a perfect example of a game that rewards USING skills to earn better ones, and only for the ones that you use.  Using your secondary weapon?  Ok, your Light Firearms skill goes up a little bit.  Once you reach a bar for it, you get a bonus and possibly something additional in your Light Firearms skills.  In the warzone actively damaging enemies?  Ok, your Battle Sense earns a few more points.  Reach enough battle sense and you spawn with an extra clip of ammo.

Imagine an MMO somewhere along those lines, where skills you USED or activities you participated in, were how your character developed.  Not by an experience bar, but just by your characters experience.  It's a system based on how the person wants to play and grows based on HOW they play.  Somewhat similar to Oblivion I guess..

 

 I really like this idea. This is more along the lines of what I would wanna play, rather than just a raiding game. I thnk most progression in MMO's now don't give enough choice to the player. I would like more options and flexibility on building my character as I level. The raiding and such could just be one way to develop those skills, or a reason to use em once they are developed. But then again Ryzom kinda has a progression system like this already, and after trying it 2 or 3 times already I usually get bored pretty quickly. It starts to feel too grindy and seems to be missing something. So maybe that kind of progression combined with quests and raiding, which Ryzom lacks, would be more interesting, at least for me at any rate.

Tymora

An MMO without character progression?  No thanks.  Even FPS and RTS games have progression these days.  Why remove key parts of the game when there is still so much more that can be added to make MMOs even better?

If it has to do with balance issues, expecially for PvP, I will listen to the agruments for it, but otherwise, progression is key in any RPG, and is common in many different types of games.  I just don't see the reasoning behind this?

Trucidation

I'm a fence-sitter -- I'm pretty game for anything, it's usually the multitudes of fucktards in a game which ruin the experience for me.

I don't see anything "wrong" with this concept. Hell, the legions of noob powerlevelers out there are basically trying to remove the progression from their games, albeit the companies aren't blameless for the entrenchment of the grind mentality. And you see everywhere some Tom, Dick, or Harry talking about their uber leet raids. So obviously a lot of people wouldn't mind just having this gameplay aspect without the tedious (to them) pre-preparation.

More power to them. We need more friggen' choice. The more types of games there are available, the less QQing of people who don't like something but feel like they must play it just because it's the latest SUV with chrome wheels and spinners the devs put out.

Azen77

Yah its a really good question. Also kind of on the fence at first glance as part of me hates to think of 'leveling up' another toon in another game just to finally get to the point where I get to do the really fun stuff.

On the other hand, as has been said, you need some sort of progression to fill that need for feeling like you are building something better each time you play, something I think is key in RPG's. And if not through levels then what?

Skills? It's common enough in mmo's especially sandbox where you skill up based on what you use. This can still be the 'level' grind though using skill points instead of experience.

Achievements? While not directly related to how your character plays, they are still a form of progression using a different metric.

Gear? Well any game where gear makes you better just uses a different package for your levels.

What about starting at max "level".  Instead of just picking meaningless things like how long your nose is in char creation, you design everything like your armor, clothes etc. like the superhero mmo's (and how Heroes Journey was going to be grrrr) Then you pick your skills just like you would if using some talent calculator, or begin with all the abilities of your chosen class. Then the real game begins.

So now you have a real avatar, your "hero" right out of the box to take on the world. Can this still be an MMORPG? Well it can for sure. But can it offer the same feeling of satisfaction that you get from a days play where you accomplish your levels and gear?

What if the whole paradigm of MMO quest design changed from having to patronize low level characters with menial tasks, pretending that "they are your only hope" to being able to focus only on the main plot of the world where everyone can participate?

Instead of using some artificial guage like experience, gear and skills to constantly become "better", the player is immersed in a changing world of deadly battles and enemies on par with all your favorite movies. The world would be no less expansive than they are now, the only difference would be that the world is your oyster.

Into politics? Work your way into the nobility/government and get yourself some bodyguards...an army?.

Hack and Slash? Become a renowned slayer collecting the heads of the beasts and players you defeat.

Exploration? Now you can without having to wait "just 3 more levels before..."

Crafting? You probably picked the class, now you have the skills start making your stuff and getting a reputation.

 

So to sum up, An MMO without Progression? No I don't think its possible. Progression is the way of most games now, and especially with MMO's, players want that satisfaction of knowing the time they spend playing is cumulatively building something greater with each play.

In terms of progression in the form of levels , skills and gear? THAT I think can be done without...well at least for me. But then again I've been playing games since I could hit jump in "BC's Quest for fire" on the Coleco so I'm pretty much had my fill of leveling in games.

Saorlan

It was BC's quest for tires. Not fire.

There are MMOs that do not have traditional progressions thing. Progression in PlanetSide was very limited as it just gave you extra weapon load out options and command skills that you could do without.

 

 

brostyn

Not me. I also hate raiding.

Azen77

Originally posted by Saorlan

It was BC's quest for tires. Not fire.

There are MMOs that do not have traditional progressions thing. Progression in PlanetSide was very limited as it just gave you extra weapon load out options and command skills that you could do without.

 

 

lol tires...thank god I was corrected.

As for planetside, it's a good example of why people would hate to not have progression. It attracts deathmatch fps players more than RPG players becasue that is its style. And if this topic is referencing MMO's in general then obviously you can have them without progression so that people can just log in for their arcade style fix and log off. But as for MMORPG's, what I consider to be the real genre in question here, I still think in depth progression in whatever its form will always be needed. And if you don't level up and become more powerful as a character is it really just a sim game instead? MMOSIM?

Dreyyvan

I like to feel some kind of connection w/my toons, a "history" sort of...never been big on raiding, so I don't think I'd bite.

Kezzerdrixx6645

Here's my thought. As with stated before, have achievements, yes. However, do as in borderlands, except take away the level. Everyone gets a set amount of talent points to build into what they want to do as the character they are. Then, as you use the skills (in borderlands case, assualt rifles, snipers, ect.) you gain "levels" that give bonuses to what you are using.

Still have solo content, aswell as group, and raid, but tier it so those that solo can get what the raiders are getting, but it takes longer to get to that point (like a month longer in solo stuff to get what raiders get in a few days). Have achievements for all types, so even if you are a solo'er, you still have a reason to look for groups and raids, aswell as raiders doing solo content.

In otherwords, it is possible to still have a progression bar, without the leveling, and it opens up the capabilities for those just starting out to experiance what veteran players are, but the veteran players still have the plus of their skills being higher are still more useful to a higher tiered raid. It also allows those coming to the game to join friends that have been playing for months to be able to play with their friend's top level, instead of the usual problem of friend's having to restart and getting bored mid-way through level.

The other side of things is someone who's getting bored with, say, their rogue, can also just make a healer, and join their guild in top end immediatly instead of dealing with the 2-3 weeks of lvling to get there.

All in all, i would actually play a game built this way, as it opens up more capabilities with alts and such.

bleyzwun

I would definitely play a game like this.  I don't think progression needs to be taken out completely, but the focus must change from leveling and gear to something else.  Everybody I used to play MMOs with stopped playing them because they dread leveling a character.  Most people just want to have fun.  

Developers would have to step their game up, though.  They rely on the various grinds to keep people going (also making people bored with the genre with each year that passes).  If removing the leveling (and other grinds) is not an option, the game must be made fun.  

A lot of people argue that leveling is part of the RPG genre.  The biggest problem with this is, leveling in single player RPGs are usually fun.  I have never felt like "omg I have to kill more boars"  in a single player game.  The carrot on a stick is not the power you gain from levels or gear (that is a bonus), it's the enjoyment you get from playing the game.  

I used to enjoy leveling, but I've done it so many times.  It's the same experience no matter which MMO I play.  I'm really tired of it all, but damnit I just keep holding out hope for things to change.