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No MP regen: how will it affect tanks and healers?
Disdena
Member UncommonPosts: 1,093
Since it's been quite a while now since there was a new topic, I thought I'd revisit an old yet interesting topic... potentially the biggest difference separating XIV from other MMOs: the lack of MP regen.
For those who didn't know, you won't be able to rest to replenish MP, in or out of combat. You'll have to visit an aetheryte node or a town in order to fill back up. Aside from a few items and abilities to get back a little MP in the field, you're stuck without the use of spells if you run out before you reach the next node. Of course you can continue to do basic attacks, TP moves, and possibly even some spells with no MP cost. But the idea is that failing to conserve your MP will result in sharply decreased effectiveness.
The concept of not regaining MP over time is fairly unique among MMOs (AFAIK) but it quite common in console RPGs. In just about any other Final Fantasy title, the MP you spend doesn't come back on its own; you have to use items or reach a place where you can rest. This makes it important to end your fights without using much MP and without taking much damage. There is an incentive to end fights quickly and efficiently because you don't want to use up MP that is costly to recover.
But we've also been told that you will rapidly regain HP in passive mode between combats, which is unlike most console RPGs. There are a few games where you automatically start each fight at full health again, but these have been the exception rather than the rule. So, what kind of strategy can we expect to come from this?
I can't help but wonder what effect this will have on the role of healer. Healers in offline RPGs have traditionally been a little bit lame. As I said above, the idea is to get through each fight losing/using a little HP/MP as possible so as to conserve your resources over the length of the whole dungeon. Individual fights rarely put any of your characters in enough danger to require an in-combat heal... most healing gets done outside of combat so that you don't waste a combat turn. So in combat these healer-types whack away with a little staff or something and do their healing outside of combat (in most situations).
Buuuuut it may be much different in FFXIV. If what we've heard is true, you will regain HP relatively quickly just for being in passive mode (you don't have to sit and rest) and groups will be moving from fight to fight, node to node, instead of sitting in one place. If you expect to heal up to full on your own in between fights, then the need for post-combat healing is decreased. This puts healers in a rather odd role that doesn't mirror their role in console RPGs or in other MMOs. They will have to be careful about healing only as it is needed (unlike MMOs) but the healing will be done almost exclusively in combat (unlike RPGs).
This also brings up another question, an almost unthinkable divergance from the tank-heal-deeps trinity: will we be able to do without healers? Or even tanks? Think about how you solo as a non-healing class. The only thing you care about as you go into a fight is "Will I be able to kill this before it kills me?" The chance of you dying is the main thing that influences what you will and won't fight. In theory, the same thing could be done in a group setting. Even if everyone is in bad shape when the fight ends, all that matters is that you survived — because healing up out of combat is not an issue.
This is a near impossibility in other most other MMOs for a few reasons. One, there tends to be a very large gap between the tankability (damage mitigation and hate generation) of a tank class and a non-tank class. Meaning, it's very easy and very beneficial for the tank to always be the only one getting hit. So the mobs have to hit hard enough to threaten a tank (because it is a safe assumption that they are always hitting tanks), which is enough to really splatter anyone else. Second, the speed and efficiency of your kills is the only real measure of your success as a group. Resting between fights wastes everyone's time because recovering HP takes time. The efficiency of healing spells and the speed of MP recovery mean that it's almost never advantageous to let someone take damage and then NOT heal them. In FFXIV however, there is another measure of success, and that is the ability to complete the journey from node to node. It doesn't matter how fast you whizz through the first 6 fights if you don't have the MP to finish the last 2.
A few things make me think that this could be a direction that FFXIV leans towards. First, the existence of skills like Lancer's Invigorate and Ferocity that consume HP could be a hint that burning through most of your HP in a fight (safely and strategically, of course) will be a smart tactic. Second, the absence of any dedicated healing class. While Conjurer gets a healing spell (and it's AoE), it doesn't seem to be the whole point of the class. And many other classes appear to get self-heal abilities, which suggests that tanks are not the only people who will need healing. And finally, pushing group combat that pits you against a group of mobs while not giving any class AoE-tanking abilities (as far as we know) is a flat-out guarantee that non-tank classes will be taking hits. I think (or at least I hope) that that could mean that should be taking some hits and coming out of the fight a little bruised, as opposed to dps in a more conventional MMO who might never take a single hit in a 6 hour group.
Long story short, I think it would be great if tanks were a little less tanky and healers were a little less healery, and it seems like FFXIV could support such a system. Nobody would be able to "sleepwalk" through a series of fights the way that most DPS classes (...and the others too, really) do now. It would also be a bit easier to cobble a group together from whatever you could find rather than being stuck waiting for a tank or healer to become available.
Your thoughts? Would this be too big a change from standard MMO group combat? What other consequences might arise from having fast HP regen and no MP regen?
Comments
Players might be more dependant on food effects more so than the first game. which is not a bad things. it just makes the player realize that their crafting is just as important as anything else in the game.
I'll take a strategic MP potion for 200 alex.
The game is in Alpha, don't take any claims seriously.
If there is no mana regen, then it'll just lead to easier to find best ways to play.
Read 1 forum, log in, be a pro.
I doubt SE would even bother making such a huge deception
Perhaps skills will require TP or MP. MP would just be an Oh shit emergency reserve. That's what i think it will be anyways. I think what they might be trying to do is to stray from the tank/dps/healer builds and force healers to do something other than chat on vent and apply renews/small heals on tanks like in 99% of mmos.
You have come to pretty much same conclusion as I have.
Not that I have heard this from anywhere, and most definitely not from the alpha testers, there might be a chance that pure healers actually get less skill points than hybrids in combat. In addition to this, like you said there are lot of self-healing abilities, HP is regened out of battle And even the normal Cure spell is AoE by default, so there is less need to use it many times in a row.
And not saying that it will be like this in game, but something on the back of my mind is saying that the way enemy AI and enmity works in this game is vastly different compared to other MMO's. "Keeping hate" is not as simple as it sounds, and as there are many monsters to fight at the same time, the number of "tanks" needed higher as well.
And while heavier equipment obviously has more defense, a little fairy came and told me that lighter equipment that is used by backline classes and some frontline ones, has more evasion bonuses which makes tanking with evading the monster possible just like a gladiator can tank by using his shield or lancer using his heavier armor can mitigate damage.
One thing I'd like to add (to the speculation!) is that TP may not stay for the next fight, and lower gradually as you're not fighting, and when you're in passive mode, it lowers even more rapidly, so as you get more HP, you lose your TP in the process, so using the TP to heal your HP makes sense.
Food also does other things than add to stats (in my mind). Like a miq'abob restores HP for example.
But of course this is all speculation and I haven't actually heard it from any other sources. .. What, why is my nose getting longer?!
A good search will get you a good glimpse of the Alpha with the ton of leaks out there. Combat is still very slow however, but until they name their game a "beta" I really wont be concerned. If the combat speed is still 4-6 seconds per action and jumping is still unavailable in the beta, then panic will really set in...
I am looking for a new type of MMO not for FFXI with a few twists.
And the only "new type of MMO" would be one with fast combat and jumping available?
For once I am quite glad that SE doesn't take the players too seriously. Hopefully people will panic all their extra hype away in the process!
Jumping is essential for one thing. FFXI and GW are frusting because you have to walk 10 minutes to get over a 1cm ledge. With jumping, they would be forced to make the experience a little bit less annoying, thus more fun. It also prevents getting stuck in barrels and what not.
Faster combat is essential, if you'd see the combat speed right now, you'd understand. Maybe its lag too. I didnt make the videos. Thats why i'm not concerned, its alpha. If i have time to get up, take a piss, grab a glass of water and have my gf press my next 3 attacks... am i really paying to play, or am i paying to wait? I dont mind pay to play, but i want to you know... play the game, not wait on it.
gonna have to agree here , maybe alchemy will be a popular craft? mp increasing mp effects from furniture. so on and so on.
It is not essential whatsoever. If SE doesn't want you to get somewhere, it doesn't matter if there is jumping feature or not. They'll just raise the ledge so you still can't get there without 10min detour. If they want you to do that, they will do it, regardless of jumping or not.
At the same time if they want you to get somewhere, they'll make it so you can without jumping. They are not limited in any way because they can do Everything to the game. They're not like "oops, we made the ledge too high! It's too late to change things now, oh well!" Your point is moot.
And here is some food for thought: If you are not moving your soldiers in the chess board every second, does that mean you're not playing the game? Or does that mean that you're thinking of your next move? That is what strategic combat is all about, and which many people seem to forget. When you look at the videos you're not experiencing the same things as the guy who is actually playing the game. Just like with chess. Boring to outsider, interesting to the two players.
Well if i can jump, and they raise the ledge, this makes huge difference for me already. In my head its not, "thats dumb, this character should be able to step over this rock no problem", its "oh its too high for me to get there, I'll keep going."
This issue is so important to me that i quit WoW over invisible walls in a few instances. It's perspective, but I require that my character is not a moron that cant jump yet can sustain dragon fire for a 10 minute fight.
Honestly, i play chess. I only played 1 tournament over the board, drawing 2000 rateds and losing by 1 tempo to a 2200 that could have been avoided. I will usually play 3 0 games because I dont want to waste my free time waiting for nothing, I like doing something.
Chess requires strategy, MMOs, no. It requires people with 1/2 a brain. Coordinating an attack was challenging to retards in FFXI, but with a static group of good players it was quite easy to do 1-50. I quit that game over inaction vs farmers and gil sellers really, but I mainly hated having to walk around everything to get from point A to point B when point B was something i could touch with my hand. And i was a taru. So is it really wrong to refuse to play a game if what annoyed you with the same company's first game is still present?
So yeah, basically because FFXI didn't require strategy, no game with similar system will ever require strategy.
Don't play the game dude. If jumping is so important to you, then feel free to not play. The game doesn't need jumping, and if you can't play the game without a feature it won't even need, then suck it up and wait for another game.
Frankly, your gripe with XI has nothing to do with jumping at all. SE designed the game to be that way, and you are groslly overexaggerating the problem. Most of the time if you couldn't get somewhere, you wouldn't have been able to do so even with jumping.
Apparently the fighting is faster than in the video I have seen. Based on this comment on it:
Another video that looks much slower than normal due to yellow lag.?
That's encouraging.
So only need infos about jumping, though if it is added it will probably be with the beta launch. As of late 2009 it was still in consideration, no news since then.
It is slightly faster than in XI.
I will kill a kitten if they add jumping though. Whiners win, everyone else loses.
Not likely though.
Other than a few RTS... how many games really require you to think? Most of it is learning a rotation.
In WoW its learn a simple rotation, like a mage.... 1 , 1 , 1 , 1 , 1 , 1 , 1, or pally 1 2 3 1 1 1 1 1 1 , SPriest was the hardest... 1 2 3 4 5 1 1 1 on proc E (or 6 depending on keybinds) and so on... but with a twist, you sometimes must press A or D.
In FFXI, you need to warn someone that you are using a certain ability so he can use his for the bonus damage.
In GW... you need to get real players and not NPCs.
In Aion, either you get 1 shot, either you can kill the mob, its a solo game.
In WAR, you must outnumber the other side in a seige. Lag makes fair fights impossible.
None of these require strategies, if you know of an MMO that requires strategy, please let me know.
Being in the programming business, when we say, in consideration, it means "We really want to, but at the moment we have more important issues"... So that to me means it will be in
You are implying that just because something doesn't exist now, it can't exist in the future.
Lis'n to me Darwin ol' buddy, I heard some guy saying on the street that in a 120 years we'd be watching people do silly things from a small box with a screen in it. That's just absurd! That can't be possible. This is the year 1881 and we've already invented everything there is to invent.
But yes, I actually do know an MMO that requires strategy (in theory). The game is called FFXIV. And because the developers are attempting to make it so it requires strategy, the logical thing is to make the combat slow as well to give us some time to think of the strategy. We'll see how it works out, and leave the FFXI analogies at the door, because this game is not FFXI.
Also, being in the customer service business, when we want to say "sorry, ain't gonna happen" we do it the nicest possible way that won't hurt the client's feelings and makes him actually believe that we're considering what he proposed.
haha! jumping has no purpose in ffxi, or ffxiv imo. it would have been nice had it been in ffxi, but i do understand why it wasnt. a perfect example would be in batilia downs. there is a ledge thats no higher than like 3 feet, and over that little ledge is a nm. if you could jump, it would make getting to that nm a piece of cake. since there was no jump, you had to take a 5-10 minute detour to get to him. annoying? yes. worth it? yes. i learned that jumping isnt everything in an mmo. actually runnin around to get to this nm make him worth it more
basically no jumping please, and i think combat speed is good. i also like the idea of no mp regen outside of battle by resting. makes things sound more complicated, adn the last thing i want to do is play another mmo thats as cookie cutter as WoW. i actually want something that requires me to think
The consumer guy wont say, it's in consideration, he will say something along the lines of "I will submit this suggestion as soon as I can" because if he says "its in consideration" when the client comes back with "so what happened in the consideration" he starts walking on eggs. One slight mistake such as "I cant unveil such details" or "It's still being considered" automatically tips you that he wants your money more than he is interested in your needs and wants, as that is translated to "We dont really care about your request". It's a dangerous road to choose in MMO development as with millions of players who are capable of speaking with each other, some people will post the message in a non PR coded way and it will be offensive such as "They really dont give a fuck about us".
Devs answers like this: Yes. No. Were considering. Not considering that for now (this one really means "No but, interesting, maybe, ill try to pass that off as my own idea").
Consumer guys hate walking on eggs, so they divert everything to go to an eventual "its not my fault, it just was not possible" because he will face the client in the future, the dev wont. That is because he can respond to aggressive questionning with, "I am a representative, not the developper here".
If a PR ever answers We're considering and i see it, ill be sure to put him in a bad spot.
If it's not implemented, it means they didn't think it was worth it to add such feature. That's as simple as it is. There is no huge conspiracy going on there. They considered it, came to a conclusion that the idea is shit, and forgot about it.
They can't say that in public of course, because people like you would be upset. They'll just answer with something you'd like. Even if there's a chance that you'll be upset anyway, it's still better than outright saying "yeah your idea is crap, we won't be implementing it."
There are always multiple groups the devs don't care about. Be it RTS, FPS, PvP, hardcore, casual, sandbox, themepark groups, the devs don't care about one or more of these groups. If you belong in one of these groups, instead of crying on the forums that they should cater to you too, wait for some company to care about your needs and play that game, instead of ruining the game for everyone when the company caters to you while sacrificing everyone else's enjoyment.
Guys, there's already a Speed of Combat thread on the front page as well as several old threads filled to the brim with jumping arguments. Let's not derail; hop over into one of those if you really need to continue on that topic.
I've always liked Sid Meier's explanation that a good game is a series of interesting choices. The "rotation" phenomenon is the polar opposite of that. If pressing 1 2 3 1 1 1 1 is always the best choice out of all your possible options, you're not making an interesting choice... and therefore not really playing a game. In order to be interesting, the choice must be a choice between some options where one option is best but no option is clearly the best. A problem in MMOs is that you've got literally hundreds of thousands of eyes on exactly the same problem for hours upon hours, some of them VERY heavily invested in "solving" the combat equation, and if the system is too simple then they will find that the correct answer is simply 1 2 3 1 1 1 1 or whatever.
What I'm envisioning here is something that, while not on par with chess, is at least a radically different formula than WoW. The question of "Do I cast 4 lightning spells or a lightning resist debuff and 3 lightning spells?" isn't interesting because there is a verifiably correct answer if you're willing to do a couple trials and some arithmetic. The question of "Do I stay on the mob I'm hitting now or switch to the mob that's hitting me?" can be awesomely interesting if there are a lot of variables influencing the decision, like the HP of all the other mobs and all your groupmates, as well as which mobs are being focused on and how much TP everyone has and how far to the next node, etc. It's an informed choice... one in which a player who has more knowledge of the situation and more knowledge of the game will make the best choice more often.
Actually, on that note, is there a point when an MMO can become too strategic? A static group of veteran players on vent together is all well and good, but the game is a failure if a pick-up group of console players cannot pass along information fluidly enough for everyone to make informed choices and survive a basic guildleve. If the standard strategy for the game is to engage 6 mobs at a time and try to spread damage equally among all group members, while also counteracting mobs' special abilities, is that too much to ask of an average player?
The way I look at it is this, it's SE's game they're going to make it the way they want. You don't have to like it, and can vote with your wallet.
So for me, the more I hear, the more my wallet whispers to me subscribe to one of the OTHER MMO's coming out next year, Tera, Secret World or SW:ToR.
I'm not an SE hater, i'm not a FF hater, I own all but three FF's ever made, SE has just lost that touch for me with titles like FFXIII, Dirge of Cerebus, and now FF XIV.....
Can we still talk about overall (concept of) strategy the might offer? It's a bit of a derail too, but you seem to be biting it too
.
That's the way it should be. If you don't like it, wait for other games and don't try to change the game to suit your needs.
You're doing it right.
Why not make killing the NM hard instead?
Why would a company who in reality wants your capital, be interested in annoying customers?
For example: If i dont play, my brothers dont play, neither does my gf, my cousins probably wont and his friends wont if he doesnt. Now what they have to evaluate is: Will jumping cause more players to play, or will no jumping cause more players to play. To be honest, thats how all MMOs (should) determine features.
Why did WoW get so dumbed down? because there are too many bad players. If they let the bad players still be able to play the story out, and the good players get slightly better gear and things like "achievements", its win-win for their business. If you think SE is different from any other company, you`re wrong.
So since it seems there is no official NO on jumping, it means that it is most likely under evaluation
Only ones being annoyed are those that won't be your customers in the first place.
If RTS players are annoyed that RPG X doesn't have RTS features, who cares?
If WRPG players are annoyed that JRPG X doesn't have WRPG features, who cares?
If you have info on the strategy this game might offer please say it.
If your idea of strategy though is , well dps wil have to be behind the mob to do more damage and mages will have to debuff him to weaken his armor, thats not strategy, thats being a competant gamer.
Will i be able to lure the adds to fear certain players in combat, will i need to jump a buff to a mob that has real AI to keep us from wiping. Will this only happen on boss fights like in WoW or will i need to think on every fight?