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TOTAL FRAUD

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  • green13green13 Member UncommonPosts: 1,341

    Originally posted by Lidane

    Originally posted by green13



    I always find the notion of ethics in business ironic. Their goal is to make as much money as they can and most will do practically anything to achieve that end. Ethics be dammed!

    Actually, ethics are a part of business. Sure, there are asshole companies like Enron and BP that  don't care about the harm they cause, but a lot of companies really do try to be as fair and equitable as they can.

    You don't make a move like this, changing your entire pricing model, without first (a) looking at the legal issues and potential risks, and (b) without considering the potential customer losses. You then have to weigh them against each other and see what your best options are. In this case, Turbine looked at the success they had in introducing this model to DDO, decided to extend it to LOTRO in the hopes of getting the same results (i.e., a big influx of players and paid customers), and opted to go for it. I'm sure they knew that some folks would get mad and quit, but the potential gains down the line made the risk worth it.

    I've worked in a few genuinely ethical businesses, but they are an exception to the rule.

    And I really don't see how you, or LOTRO, could view this special offer on the lifetime subscription just before announcing the change to a free-to-play model as ethical.

  • MyskMysk Member Posts: 982

    Originally posted by Bluekid

    i just got ripped for £75.

    Bought the lifetime membership 2 weeks ago. The reduced offer was due to run till end June then they switch to F2P half way thru!!!!!.

    I contacted Codemasters who say no refunds.

    This is fraud.

    Beware any payments to this company in any form.

    Can I have your account, Blue? I'd like a life time account with permanent VIP benefits.  That'd rock my socks.  But then, I actually read the FAQ and all related information about the change so I'm aware of all of the snazzy benefits that I would be receiving.

  • LidaneLidane Member CommonPosts: 2,300

    Originally posted by green13

    And I really don't see how you, or LOTRO, could view this special offer on the lifetime subscription just before announcing the change to a free-to-play model as ethical.

    It's not underhanded at all because the changes to LOTRO's pricing model don't take effect for several months, and when you actually see how that new pricing model works, the Lifetime sub is actually a really solid deal.

    For one price and a one-time payment, a new customer gets everything the game has to offer plus bonus points every month for the life of the game. No monthly fees to haggle with, no nickel and dime transactions for individual zones or anything else. If anything, both the monthly and Lifetime subs are being set up as the ideal to aim for instead of paying as you go or playing for free, just because of the benefits that VIP players get over the others.

    Honestly, it wouldn't have mattered when they announced this. If they'd done it before a Lifetime sub sale, many of the same folks that are bitching would still be bitching. If they'd done it next month instead of now, people would be complaining.

    The only thing that would have made this unethical to me is if they'd never said anything at all.

  • ChaosIncChaosInc Member Posts: 112

    Originally posted by Bluekid

    Wow.

    Cant believe you guys.

    I didnt pay £75 for F2P, of course its fraud.

    I didnt pay for the things they say they are going to give me now. I paid for a lifetime sub to a P2P.

    I really just want my cash back and I'll move along.

    Anyone suggest a decent MMO out there cos LOTRO is dead (hopefully), hows Aion doing?

    Anyone want a VIP account?

    Sure.  Pass it this way.

    NEWS FLASH! PAYING THE SUB IN F2P = NO DIFFERENCE THAN P2P GAMES!

    Why the hell can't the whiners comprehend this?

  • green13green13 Member UncommonPosts: 1,341

    Originally posted by Lidane

    Originally posted by green13



    And I really don't see how you, or LOTRO, could view this special offer on the lifetime subscription just before announcing the change to a free-to-play model as ethical.

    It's not underhanded at all because the changes to LOTRO's pricing model don't take effect for several months, and when you actually see how that new pricing model works, the Lifetime sub is actually a really solid deal.

    I've made this point before, I'm perfectly aware of how the changes will work. I can, and do, read.

    But what's acceptable for you, isn't necessarily acceptable for others.

    Many who play subscription MMOs wouldn't touch a free-to-play MMO or one with an item mall with a ten foot pole. That is their prerogative. Though in this case the OP has potentially been denied that prerogative by this bait and switch.

  • ErstokErstok Member Posts: 523

    So like DDO which the f2p actually helped and boosted a good game and people are against that? Why because a cash shop? If the game was good already and is going to be free to play with nothing really changed to the main game itself why would anyone give a crap about a cash shop that throws in a potion or two? People get all flustered over crap. Makes me wonder how many have actually played the game because even as p2p I thought it was quite fun personally. Community though not very talkative, still very nice and mature honestly.

    image
    When did you start playing "old school" MMO's. World Of Warcraft?

  • powerbaitpowerbait Member Posts: 113

    I just don't see how the op can feel like he is missing out on something.  Yes I understand that everyone views everything in life differently, he may feel like he's getting ripped off - but again I really do not think he has taken the time to look into what they are still giving him.  Again as I've stated many many times before - there are terms and conditions that apply to everything - and yes another posted on my servers being closed down post, I understand that they are different to a degree but it still gives the devs/publisher the right to change their business model.  

    It is not unethical, it is not fraud, nor is it bait and switch.  They offered him something that looked good to him, he took on to it - they are in the works to change things over, where they could have just went f2p today and just not given any announcement.  I'm not saying my that everyone should view this as I do - but you have to view it under the terms he agreed on when purchased the item.

    If the op can produce some form of the original ToS stating that clear cut they have to keep their business model exactly as he purchased it then by all means seek legal advice - charge back your credit card and stick it to them, but with online gaming you have to remember they have to cover all fields, and also think - is it better to have the game you enjoy or possibly lose it all together? 

    Again the VIP's are only gaining from this - yes it will be different from all the previous times you played the game, but will you as a lifetime sub notice any of that difference?  I highly doubt you will, and in fact I'm pretty sure Turbine will make sure that you get taken care of.

    I would also say that if they were doing nothing at all for lifetime subs and basically saying "hey guys thanks but you're SOL please buy more stuff!"  I'd be right with you in saying that the company has pulled some unethical business patterns.

    I dunno not everyone is going to agree - again I'm viewing this as an outsider I do not play Lotro the last Turbine game I played for any extended amount of time was Asheron's Call 1.  I'm not defending Turbine or codemasters or warner, I'm just saying that the terms of service allow companies to work on many aspects and most of them cover game clauses if they need to make any changes to the game or even their business model.

    ------------------------------
    We don't have a great war in our generation, or a great depression, but we do, we have a great war of the spirit. We have a great revolution against the culture. The great depression is our lives.
    ~Chuck Palahniuk, Fight Club

  • LidaneLidane Member CommonPosts: 2,300

    Though in this case the OP has potentially been denied that prerogative by this bait and switch.

    You keep calling it a bait and switch. This wasn't one. At all. Nothing has changed for the Lifetime subs at all in terms of gameplay or benefit to their subscription. They are, in fact, in the best position overall in the new price model that Turbine is offering.

    A bait and switch would have been something along the lines of the NGE. THAT was a bait and switch. This? Not so much.

    Some people might not like item malls, but no one ever said they had to use one. I'm currently playing EQ2. They're selling mounts and have a cash shop that they introduced over the life of the game. Do I care? No. Why? Because it's OPTIONAL. I don't have to use it, or even glance at it, and I don't. I just play the game. I'll end up doing the same in LOTRO unless there's a real sweet deal on something that I just can't see myself passing up. Otherwise, all those points I've got coming will just collect over time until I see something I think is worth it, if that ever happens.

    Again -- this isn't 2004. The gaming market has changed. Consumers have repeatedly shown that they are open to these kinds of price models and to buying content in cash shops and item malls. Don't believe me? Just look at XBox Live and the PSN. Look at Rock Band and Guitar Hero. Look at the Facebook games that are raking in millions. These kinds of price models are inevitable in MMO's, but Turbine is at least adapting them while still making a paid monthly sub or a Lifetime subscription what the customer *should* be aiming for. It's a compromise, and one that actually benefits long-time subscribers and Lifetime members if you really look at it.

  • superniceguysuperniceguy Member UncommonPosts: 2,278

    Originally posted by green13

    Originally posted by superniceguy


    Originally posted by green13



    I always find the notion of ethics in business ironic. Their goal is to make as much money as they can and most will do practically anything to achieve that end. Ethics be dammed!

    But Turbine ran a special offer on the lifetime subscriptions just before making the switch, i.e.

    ---> Bait and switch.

    And that may be illegal.

    Like I said before, you reckon it better they didn't do the offer and people paid more for it?

    I'm sorry if you made that point earlier and I failed to respond to it.

    You're missing the "bait" part. Would the OP, or others, have purchased a full price lifetime subscription now, or did they only buy it because it was on special?

    If it is on full price then that shows they are full steam ahead, and then if did this then there may have been more reason to doubt the ethics, legality of it all, but as it is on offer then you have to ask yourself "Why is it on offer?" The fact it was offered cheaply and the game had been around 3 years already, then something is up. I paid £200 for my 2 lifetime subscriptions, but then that was right at the start of the game.

    There is no bait at all, but a flashing big warning sign that says "Risky to buy" I like buying Lifetime subscriptions but I doubt I would have done at this stage of the games life, with that low price tag.

    However now that they have announced this new price structure, then this now secures the game for quite a bit longer, so would even buy a Lifetime subscription now after reading the info on the F2P structure, as you still have to sub to the game to get the best out of it cheaply. If you try and get the same stuff by going the F2P option you will pay more overall.

  • dhayes68dhayes68 Member UncommonPosts: 1,388

    It seems a lot of people that are against the op, are using the defense thay the lifetime sub is a great deal in the new f2p scheme. And that may be.

    But it regardless of the value of the deal, its still fair to say that a person who purchased a lifetime sub to a p2p isn't getting what they thought they were getting when that game switches to f2p. 

    Yeah, maybed they're even getting more for their money, but that doesn't count for much if the game changes into something they don't want to play.

  • seabass2003seabass2003 Member Posts: 4,144

    Originally posted by green13

    Originally posted by Bluekid

    Bought the lifetime membership 2 weeks ago. The reduced offer was due to run till end June then they switch to F2P half way thru!!!!!.

    I contacted Codemasters who say no refunds.

    This is fraud.

    I can sympathise with your feeling this way, but technically I don't think it's fraud. They didn't actually lie.

    If you read the fine print - I did back when they started offering lifetime subs - there's are all of the usual disclaimers to the effect that they make no guarantee of what the lifetime of the product will be, or that the product won't change.

    It's why most wise people steer very clear of "lifetime" subs.

    Three MMOs have offered them.


    1. Hellgate London - flopped and died.

    2. Lord of the Rings Online - expected over a million subscribers but knew they weren't going to get anywhere near it so they offered lifetime subs for quick cash. And now they've gone free to play.

    3. Champions Online - a huge dud that launched with an item mall - on top of your monthly or lifetime sub.

    Lifetime sub = bad risk.

    But while it isn't technically fraud, this special reduced offer just before they announced switching to free to play is pretty dirty. They must have known and this would have been a last ditched attempt to squeeze money out of the lifetime deal.

    It's really sad when any company treats consumers this way. I definitely wouldn't trust Turbine/Warner Bros after seeing this.

    While it might not be fraud.... it may still be illegal. If there's any kind of free legal or consumer advice service where you live, give them a call. It seems like running this special deal, knowing full well that they were about to make a drastic change to the nature of the product, may constitute some kind of contractual misrepresentation.

    I paid 200 dollars at launch. March 2007. Can you tell me how much that equals monthly? I'm really bad at math and I want to see how bad I got screwed.

    In America I have bad teeth. If I lived in England my teeth would be perfect.

  • LidaneLidane Member CommonPosts: 2,300

    Originally posted by seabass2003

    I paid 200 dollars at launch. March 2007. Can you tell me how much that equals monthly? I'm really bad at math and I want to see how bad I got screwed.

    Heh.

  • ndodgendodge Member UncommonPosts: 55

    Originally posted by Lidane

    Originally posted by seabass2003



    I paid 200 dollars at launch. March 2007. Can you tell me how much that equals monthly? I'm really bad at math and I want to see how bad I got screwed.

    Heh.

    $5.13/mo. for the 39 mo. you'll have had the sub

    I play in a sandbox.

  • Skooma2Skooma2 Member UncommonPosts: 697

    $200 divided by 39 months = $5.13 per month.

    Hedonismbot: Your latest performance was as delectable as dipping my bottom over and over into a bath of the silkiest oils and creams.

  • MMOrUSMMOrUS Member Posts: 414

    Originally posted by Bluekid

    Wow.

    Cant believe you guys.

    I didnt pay £75 for F2P, of course its fraud.

    I didnt pay for the things they say they are going to give me now. I paid for a lifetime sub to a P2P.

    I really just want my cash back and I'll move along.

    Anyone suggest a decent MMO out there cos LOTRO is dead (hopefully), hows Aion doing?

    Anyone want a VIP account?

     Are you a bit slow? haven't you even bothered to read what the F2P service will offer?

    As in DDO a Premium account holder (F2P) does not get access to the entire game, they have to buy adventure packs and all the other bits and pieces that a VIP (P2P) customer gets.

    I use the VIP service of DDO because I don't want an uninterupted service, and If I had paid for a lifetime sub at £75 I'd be damn happy about that.

  • dhayes68dhayes68 Member UncommonPosts: 1,388

    Originally posted by Torvaldr

    Originally posted by dhayes68

    It seems a lot of people that are against the op, are using the defense thay the lifetime sub is a great deal in the new f2p scheme. And that may be.

    But it regardless of the value of the deal, its still fair to say that a person who purchased a lifetime sub to a p2p isn't getting what they thought they were getting when that game switches to f2p. 

    Yeah, maybed they're even getting more for their money, but that doesn't count for much if the game changes into something they don't want to play.

    It's true the game is going to change, but then they have the huge yellow warning letters at every single login session stating the gameplay may change.  I've played the game for 3 years now, up until last month.  The game has changed dramatically every paid update.  Going Free2Start will definitely change the game, but so did Moria and Mirkwood.

     

    LIfers are actually getting a great deal because not only do they have full access to the content and game systems, they also get 500 points a month to spend (not to mention the bonus points at F2S launch).  I wish I could have afforded a lifetime account when it was around.

    Oh, I'm not saying lifers are in the right. But a change in gameplay is a bit different that what we're seeing here. Lifer's paid fo a life time subscription.Now everyone has a lifetime subscription. LIke I said, it not about the value of what they'll get. Its what they paid for, they ain't getting.

  • LidaneLidane Member CommonPosts: 2,300

    Originally posted by dhayes68

    Lifer's paid fo a life time subscription.Now everyone has a lifetime subscription. LIke I said, it not about the value of what they'll get. Its what they paid for, they ain't getting.

    Except that when you compare the benefits of the different tiers, Lifetime and paid subscriptions get the most out of the new LOTRO model:

    http://www.lotro.com/betasignup/vipchart.html

    It's actually much smarter in the long run to subscribe or pay for a Lifetime sub just due to the different benefits offered. The free part is barely more than a glorified demo. It's good for players who want to get into the game world and play at their own pace without a heavy commitment. And the premium tier is for those players who are wary of monthly fees and would rather just buy content as they go, and who don't mind not getting the whole LOTRO experience. It's the VIP tier, which requires either a monthly sub or a Lifetime account, that gets the most from the game.

    That's what makes all these complaints such a mystery to me. It's not like the free players are going to be on the same playing field as someone who's an active subscriber right now. They won't be. Even the folks who pay for this zone or that one, or who buy some items in the item mall still won't have the same flexibility as active paying subscribers.

  • DinendaeDinendae Member Posts: 1,264

    Originally posted by Lidane

     

    That's what makes all these complaints such a mystery to me. It's not like the free players are going to be on the same playing field as someone who's an active subscriber right now. They won't be. Even the folks who pay for this zone or that one, or who buy some items in the item mall still won't have the same flexibility as active paying subscribers.

     While I generally don't care for the tone of the articles by the columnist here (can't remember his name off the top of my head) who does all the F2P stories, I have to agree with him on the following: Nothing creates more of a knee-jerk reaction in Western audiences like the mention of F2P, even if the game's financial model really isn't your standard F2P fare.

    "Oh my, how horrible, someone is criticizing a MMO. Oh yeah, that is what a forum is about, looking at both sides. You rather have to be critical of anything in this genre as of late because the track record of these major studios has just been appalling." -Ozmodan

  • superniceguysuperniceguy Member UncommonPosts: 2,278

    Originally posted by dhayes68

    It seems a lot of people that are against the op, are using the defense thay the lifetime sub is a great deal in the new f2p scheme. And that may be.

    But it regardless of the value of the deal, its still fair to say that a person who purchased a lifetime sub to a p2p isn't getting what they thought they were getting when that game switches to f2p. 

    Yeah, maybed they're even getting more for their money, but that doesn't count for much if the game changes into something they don't want to play.

    The game is not even going to be Free to Play, it just going to be like an endless free trial like Warhammer Online has, but you can keep paying for each part of the game.

    eg on F2P you get 1 character, you want 2 you will have to pay £1 per month for it, want 3 then thats £2 per month, want 9 that is £8 per month, want to remove the gold cap, thats £9 per month, want more traits thats £10 per month etc.

    So if you go F2p you will be paying more than monthly and especially the Lifetime subs

    It is not a game where it is actually free to play, and I don't think there is another game like this, except Warhammers endless free trial which is similar to the F2P model but can't pay to get restrictions removed, so the OP is panicking over nothing.

  • nyxiumnyxium Member UncommonPosts: 1,345

    I think Conan has an endless trial, but they actually phrase it as that, so the consumer knows what they are getting. If LOTRO are giving an endless trial then personally it should be advertised as that. Clarification would not hurt Turbine or Codemasters in this situation.

  • superniceguysuperniceguy Member UncommonPosts: 2,278

    Originally posted by nyxium

    I think Conan has an endless trial, but they actually phrase it as that, so the consumer knows what they are getting. If LOTRO are giving an endless trial then personally it should be advertised as that. Clarification would not hurt Turbine or Codemasters in this situation.

    It is not an endless trial either, as you can pay to get the restrictions removed, so should be adverised differently again, but they should not really advertise it as Free to Play, that is the misleading part, and getting people upset / excited

    Some people may be thinking they won't have to pay a thing when this changes, and cancel their subs, or that their subs will cancel automatically (and be surprised they got charged again), then will be frustrated whne they experience all the restrictions, and realise they will have to sub again.

  • superniceguysuperniceguy Member UncommonPosts: 2,278

    Actually this looks to be similar to Free Realms. That game has been out ages, and thought it was totally free (and so did others) but only this week I realised that you have to pay for it, until people startted posting about it on the SWG forums, after the news about the Clone Wars MMO:

    I can't wait to read all the crying on the forums when that free Star Wars MMO gets something better then the one people pay a monthly fee for.



    Free Realms (and the Clone Wars MMO) aren't free, it's just an elaborate trial intended to get you hooked and start spending money.

    There will be a sub fee if its the same model as Free Realms, and you will have to pay it to access the majority of the content.  The other route is subscription-free with micro-transactions via station cash.

     

    I was going to play Clone Wars when it gets released, as thought it was going to be free, but now its not going to be exactly, I may not bother.

  • CharlizdCharlizd Member UncommonPosts: 923

    lol it's not Fraud but it is an ass of thing to keep that lifetime crap up when they would have had this in thew bags for quite some time now, i tell ya what is lame tho, i try to log into the game tonight not playing for quite some time not even realising i still had a 3 month sub set up lol so i thought cool saves me having to redo all that crap, so i update the client, nut the add on pack, go to log in and BAM your account is banned O.o i was like What ...the ...fuck.....

    But it get's better, my account is still active, they have been charging my credit card for the 3 month sub for the past 6 months so that is $60 they have charged me for a banned account??? work that one out, they ban me yet still charge my account..

    So now i am apparently banned for god knows what reason as i received no email from them regarding this matter, am out of pocket $60, cannot access there forums because my account is banned, and have to wait 3-5 working days to get a response to the matter from there customer service team.... W.T.F so i also now have to lose near on another week of my subscription just to find out why the fuck i was banned....

    I used to be a fanboy of this game and used to support them and got to war with the haters about this game and as it is now, they can take there game and shoved it right up there ass...

     

    Way to go Turbine, say hello to all the freeloaders who had no interest in paying for and supporting your game when it was released and goodbye to alot of us that had been there for ya...fucking retards.

    Andrew "Charlizd" Phippen | Lead World Builder | The Saga of Lucimia MMORPG
  • superniceguysuperniceguy Member UncommonPosts: 2,278

    Originally posted by charlizd

    lol it's not Fraud but it is an ass fo thing to keep that lifetime crap up when they would have had this in thew bags for quite some time now, i tell ya what is lame tho, i try to log into the game tonight not playing for quite some time not even relalising i still had a 3 month sub set up lol so i thought cool saves me having to redo all that crap, so i update the client, nut the add on pack, go to log in and BAM your account is banned O.o i was like What ...the ...fuck.....

    But it get's better, my account is still active, they have been charging my credit card for the 3 month sub for the past 6 months so that is $60 they have charged me for a banned account??? work that one out, they ban me yet still charge my account..

    So now i am apparently banned for god knows what reason as i received no email from them regarding this matter, am out of pocket $60, cannot access there forums because my account is banned, and have to wait 3-5 working days to get a response to the matter from there customer service team.... W.T.F so i also now have to lose near on another week of my subscription just to find out why the fuck i was banned....

    I used to be a fanboy of this game and used to support them and got to war with the haters about this game and as it is now, they can take there game and shoved it right up there ass...

     

    Way to go Turbine, say hello to all the freeloaders who had no interest in paying for and supporting your game when it was released and goodbye to alot of us that had been there for ya...fucking retards.

    It still requires a monthly fee. The Lifetime subs is still the best option for the game, and I have 2 of them, and glad I have them. I doubt there will be many freeloaders as they will still have to pay, will be not much different to people checking game out under the free trial.

    If I don't want to pay for a MMO, I just keep creating new trial accounts

    What this is supposed to do, is to attract more people, then they get hooked and carry on playing and subbing to the game. The Lifetime sub will probably be gone, and people will then be posting they want one.

    This payment model looks to be the future of all MMOs, including SWTOR. SWTOR siad they'd go MT route, or whatever is the "craze" at the time, and it looks like this "craze" will be it by next year.

  • superniceguysuperniceguy Member UncommonPosts: 2,278

    Originally posted by charlizd

    Originally posted by superniceguy


    Originally posted by charlizd

    lol it's not Fraud but it is an ass fo thing to keep that lifetime crap up when they would have had this in thew bags for quite some time now, i tell ya what is lame tho, i try to log into the game tonight not playing for quite some time not even relalising i still had a 3 month sub set up lol so i thought cool saves me having to redo all that crap, so i update the client, nut the add on pack, go to log in and BAM your account is banned O.o i was like What ...the ...fuck.....

    But it get's better, my account is still active, they have been charging my credit card for the 3 month sub for the past 6 months so that is $60 they have charged me for a banned account??? work that one out, they ban me yet still charge my account..

    So now i am apparently banned for god knows what reason as i received no email from them regarding this matter, am out of pocket $60, cannot access there forums because my account is banned, and have to wait 3-5 working days to get a response to the matter from there customer service team.... W.T.F so i also now have to lose near on another week of my subscription just to find out why the fuck i was banned....

    I used to be a fanboy of this game and used to support them and got to war with the haters about this game and as it is now, they can take there game and shoved it right up there ass...

     

    Way to go Turbine, say hello to all the freeloaders who had no interest in paying for and supporting your game when it was released and goodbye to alot of us that had been there for ya...fucking retards.

    It still requires a monthly fee. The Lifetime subs is still the best option for the game, and I have 2 of them, and glad I have them. I doubt there will be many freeloaders as they will still have to pay, will be not much different to people checking game out under the free trial.

    Actually no they wont have to pay, it is stated clearly that most of the content can be access without paying just like in DDO, if you pay however you get access to the stuff right away.

     

     


    What I can gatther, you have to keep paying monthly / playing to keep the content - if you lapse you'll lose it all and go back to the base model.


     


    Congrats on stuffing the forum up!

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