Not entirely sure but from what i have read, once content is unlocked, or in the case of those who have already unlocked areas that are soon to be locked, will not need to be unlocked again, all content from what i have read can be unlocked in game without actually paying real money like in DDo by doing certain quest chains will reward you in coins or some other kind of way to be able to unlock it without digging in your pockets.
I have no issues with the F2P model i knew it would happen sooner or later, i do however have issues with my original post and that is that they have been charging me, yet have banned me for who knows what, this to me unless they can fix it and compensate me is my way of saying cya the hell later, i will not pay or play a game if they have intentions or have ripped me off, there customer service and restrictions they put on people is a joke, My account is active (but banned) and i cannot even access the forums because according tho them i dont have an active account, ( which i assume is because they have banned me) piss poor way to treat already paying customers.
Well i look at it this way, if you are playing more than one character at a time then you have intentions of putting some time into the game so i don't think it will matter too much, but again it is not a breaking point imo for those who don't want to pay to result in having pay, sure if you want to have multiple chars then yeah you may have to pay initially but i know from exp with DDO that i have kept up with all those that do pay but yet i do not, it depends on how much time you as a person wants to put into the game, if ppl can access what the paying ppl can without paying, then they will do that, why would you not?
Sure you get some nifty perks by subbing but it is not game breaking imo.
Well i look at it this way, if you are playing more than one character at a time then you have intentions of putting some time into the game so i don't think it will matter too much, but again it is not a breaking point imo for those who don't want to pay to result in having pay, sure if you want to have multiple chars then yeah you may have to pay initially but i know from exp with DDO that i have kept up with all those that do pay but yet i do not, it depends on how much time you as a person wants to put into the game, if ppl can access what the paying ppl can without paying, then they will do that, why would you not?
Sure you get some nifty perks by subbing but it is not game breaking imo.
There is going to be alot of stuff that a F2P person can not access
and thereby not be able to acquire enough points to lift the
restrictions. I highly doubt people will get points by just wandering
about., they would need to play the game and complete quests to
get points to unlock more of the game, but as the game is all locked out
will not be able to get the points to unlock the game, so therefore people
will have to buy the points to unlock game. A VIP player will have access
to everything and will be able to acquire loads of points by playing.
Well i look at it this way, if you are playing more than one character at a time then you have intentions of putting some time into the game so i don't think it will matter too much, but again it is not a breaking point imo for those who don't want to pay to result in having pay, sure if you want to have multiple chars then yeah you may have to pay initially but i know from exp with DDO that i have kept up with all those that do pay but yet i do not, it depends on how much time you as a person wants to put into the game, if ppl can access what the paying ppl can without paying, then they will do that, why would you not?
Sure you get some nifty perks by subbing but it is not game breaking imo.
There is going to be alot of stuff that a F2P person can not access
and thereby not be able to acquire enough points to lift the
restrictions. I highly doubt people will get points by just wandering
about., they would need to play the game and complete quests to
get points to unlock more of the game, but as the game is all locked out
will not be able to get the points to unlock the game, so therefore people
will have to buy the points to unlock game. A VIP player will have access
to everything and will be able to acquire loads of points by playing.
Well if it works like DDO then players will be able to unlock stuff just by questing, i have never spent a cent in DDO and i have unlocked all the chars and most quest (well Quest i am upto atleast) so i think ppl will be able to play the game without subbing and get as much as the P2P ppl do but i guess we will see when it finally happens, if i am still around that is.
Whether or not you like it or not, or regardless of whether any of you think it is value for money, he is receiving something different to what he paid for.
No, he bought the right to play the game free of additional charge for as long as it is in existence, subject only to certain additional charges such as paid-for expansions, and that right is precisely what he will continue to have after the Autumn, up until which he will continue exactly as at present in any event, and after which he may well find that he doesn't actually need to pay extra for those expansions after all.
No, Alberel is right.
It isn't fraud, because there was no actual lie.
But in contract law, witholding pertinent information can constitute misrepresentation.
The facts.
1) Free-to-play and subscription games are very different. Item shops are positively loathed by a lot of players and many players who would happily pay a monthly or lifetime sub wouldn't touch a free-to-play game with a ten-foot-pole.
2) Turbine ran a special offer, selling the lifetime subs at reduced cost just prior to switching to a free-to-play model. That's EXTREMELY suspicious. It's as if they knew that was the lifetime subscription was going to be FAR less appealing after the switch.
I don't know if there's enough there to win a case because laws vary from place to place. But the OP is right to be angry and to seek legal advice.
But they didn't switch to a free to play mode, they added a "free to play" (or "a la carte) model.
Alberel is not right. The op will get exactly what he paid for as far as service.
The only footing that he or anyone who wants to jump into the same boat have is if they:
a, clearly despise any idea of any sort of cash shop, regardless of whether or not it really has any actual effect on the game
b, they never want to support a company that can implement or has games that implement this type of system.
Because as it stands now I have not seen any argument that is convincing except for for the above.
It doesn't constitute fraud because nothing was witheld by Turbine that changes the actual purchased service and makes it anything other than what it is.
In addtion, nothing added with this Turbine Cash shop invalidates or makes their purchased service any lesser and it is still a better value.
So provided that a player has intention to play the game for years coming (which is the whole idea fo the life time sub) people still get the better value with the life time sub.
All this essentially comes down to is that people are angry at Turbine because they added a type of cash shop and regardless that it doesn't really give anyone a significant leg up in the game, they don't like the idea and want nothing to do with the company.
It doesn't matter to me that people like something or hate something but for my tastes I would rather call a spade a spade so the true issue can be discussed.
Like Skyrim? Need more content? Try my Skyrim mod "Godfred's Tomb."
Lifer's paid fo a life time subscription.Now everyone has a lifetime subscription. LIke I said, it not about the value of what they'll get. Its what they paid for, they ain't getting.
Except that when you compare the benefits of the different tiers, Lifetime and paid subscriptions get the most out of the new LOTRO model:
It's actually much smarter in the long run to subscribe or pay for a Lifetime sub just due to the different benefits offered. The free part is barely more than a glorified demo. It's good for players who want to get into the game world and play at their own pace without a heavy commitment. And the premium tier is for those players who are wary of monthly fees and would rather just buy content as they go, and who don't mind not getting the whole LOTRO experience. It's the VIP tier, which requires either a monthly sub or a Lifetime account, that gets the most from the game.
That's what makes all these complaints such a mystery to me. It's not like the free players are going to be on the same playing field as someone who's an active subscriber right now. They won't be. Even the folks who pay for this zone or that one, or who buy some items in the item mall still won't have the same flexibility as active paying subscribers.
Yes but as I've said its not about the value of what they are receiving. It about getting what they paid for.
Lifer's paid fo a life time subscription.Now everyone has a lifetime subscription. LIke I said, it not about the value of what they'll get. Its what they paid for, they ain't getting.
Except that when you compare the benefits of the different tiers, Lifetime and paid subscriptions get the most out of the new LOTRO model:
It's actually much smarter in the long run to subscribe or pay for a Lifetime sub just due to the different benefits offered. The free part is barely more than a glorified demo. It's good for players who want to get into the game world and play at their own pace without a heavy commitment. And the premium tier is for those players who are wary of monthly fees and would rather just buy content as they go, and who don't mind not getting the whole LOTRO experience. It's the VIP tier, which requires either a monthly sub or a Lifetime account, that gets the most from the game.
That's what makes all these complaints such a mystery to me. It's not like the free players are going to be on the same playing field as someone who's an active subscriber right now. They won't be. Even the folks who pay for this zone or that one, or who buy some items in the item mall still won't have the same flexibility as active paying subscribers.
Yes but as I've said its not about the value of what they are receiving. It about getting what they paid for.
They got exactly what they paid for.
the free to play option is not a subsccription. if anything it is Access to the game for free but not access to everything unless they pay something up front or if the game is like ddo then need to unlock content by jumping through whatever hoops are needed in order to do that.
I would say that on the surface it would be a compelling argument if we were just talking about being able to log into the game ad infinitum but what each group gets is very different.
Like Skyrim? Need more content? Try my Skyrim mod "Godfred's Tomb."
Lifer's paid fo a life time subscription.Now everyone has a lifetime subscription. LIke I said, it not about the value of what they'll get. Its what they paid for, they ain't getting.
Except that when you compare the benefits of the different tiers, Lifetime and paid subscriptions get the most out of the new LOTRO model:
It's actually much smarter in the long run to subscribe or pay for a Lifetime sub just due to the different benefits offered. The free part is barely more than a glorified demo. It's good for players who want to get into the game world and play at their own pace without a heavy commitment. And the premium tier is for those players who are wary of monthly fees and would rather just buy content as they go, and who don't mind not getting the whole LOTRO experience. It's the VIP tier, which requires either a monthly sub or a Lifetime account, that gets the most from the game.
That's what makes all these complaints such a mystery to me. It's not like the free players are going to be on the same playing field as someone who's an active subscriber right now. They won't be. Even the folks who pay for this zone or that one, or who buy some items in the item mall still won't have the same flexibility as active paying subscribers.
Yes but as I've said its not about the value of what they are receiving. It about getting what they paid for.
They got exactly what they paid for.
the free to play option is not a subsccription. if anything it is Access to the game for free but not access to everything unless they pay something up front or if the game is like ddo then need to unlock content by jumping through whatever hoops are needed in order to do that.
I would say that on the surface it would be a compelling argument if we were just talking about being able to log into the game ad infinitum but what each group gets is very different.
It is not what us lifetime VIP members got. Sure we get 500 points. Sure I get to keep my level 65 characters. What I am worried about is the going forward option. Ok say we add endeelwath or whatever it is Isendgaurd is in. How much do I have to pay in points to unlock that? 500 points a month is nothing if the cost of unlocking a new area is going to be 10,000 points. Se my drift. This entrie thing of seperated out types of subscriptions is creating an entire class of have's vs the have nots. Its bad enough we already have the game segreagated due to radaince, now were creating more class tiers of seperation. Plus what happens going forward as to how many points you have to buy or not have to buy. Folks think the lifetimers got handled good, my entire thing is yea we get some perks up front but, honestly I see this as a way of making the lifetime members cough up a hole lot more money now than just the original sub that we got, and I mean a whole lotr more money.
Is it fraud, i think its close to boarderline.
Is it unethical you bet your bottom dollar.
Do I want to play the LOTRO ever again, No! Will I ever play another game made by turbine, No! The reason why is you cant trust them to do the right thing.
Lifer's paid fo a life time subscription.Now everyone has a lifetime subscription. LIke I said, it not about the value of what they'll get. Its what they paid for, they ain't getting.
Except that when you compare the benefits of the different tiers, Lifetime and paid subscriptions get the most out of the new LOTRO model:
It's actually much smarter in the long run to subscribe or pay for a Lifetime sub just due to the different benefits offered. The free part is barely more than a glorified demo. It's good for players who want to get into the game world and play at their own pace without a heavy commitment. And the premium tier is for those players who are wary of monthly fees and would rather just buy content as they go, and who don't mind not getting the whole LOTRO experience. It's the VIP tier, which requires either a monthly sub or a Lifetime account, that gets the most from the game.
That's what makes all these complaints such a mystery to me. It's not like the free players are going to be on the same playing field as someone who's an active subscriber right now. They won't be. Even the folks who pay for this zone or that one, or who buy some items in the item mall still won't have the same flexibility as active paying subscribers.
Yes but as I've said its not about the value of what they are receiving. It about getting what they paid for.
They got exactly what they paid for.
the free to play option is not a subsccription. if anything it is Access to the game for free but not access to everything unless they pay something up front or if the game is like ddo then need to unlock content by jumping through whatever hoops are needed in order to do that.
I would say that on the surface it would be a compelling argument if we were just talking about being able to log into the game ad infinitum but what each group gets is very different.
It is not what us lifetime VIP members got. Sure we get 500 points. Sure I get to keep my level 65 characters. What I am worried about is the going forward option. Ok say we add endeelwath or whatever it is Isendgaurd is in. How much do I have to pay in points to unlock that? 500 points a month is nothing if the cost of unlocking a new area is going to be 10,000 points. Se my drift. This entrie thing of seperated out types of subscriptions is creating an entire class of have's vs the have nots. Its bad enough we already have the game segreagated due to radaince, now were creating more class tiers of seperation. Plus what happens going forward as to how many points you have to buy or not have to buy. Folks think the lifetimers got handled good, my entire thing is yea we get some perks up front but, honestly I see this as a way of making the lifetime members cough up a hole lot more money now than just the original sub that we got, and I mean a whole lotr more money.
Is it fraud, i think its close to boarderline.
Is it unethical you bet your bottom dollar.
Do I want to play the LOTRO ever again, No! Will I ever play another game made by turbine, No! The reason why is you cant trust them to do the right thing.
You won't pay anything to unlock new content, as a subscriber you will get access to it already, thats the way it already works in DDO.
F2P players however will have to buy that new content, they may even have to buy certain classes like the warden and rune keeper, just as DDO has done with the Monk.
Btw on a personal note I would never ever buy a lifetime sub, it takes the power away from me as a customer when I give the developers all the money they will ever get from me, my voice is now diminished because even if I walked away from the game the devs still had all the money out of me.
Whether or not you like it or not, or regardless of whether any of you think it is value for money, he is receiving something different to what he paid for.
No, he bought the right to play the game free of additional charge for as long as it is in existence, subject only to certain additional charges such as paid-for expansions, and that right is precisely what he will continue to have after the Autumn, up until which he will continue exactly as at present in any event, and after which he may well find that he doesn't actually need to pay extra for those expansions after all.
No, Alberel is right.
It isn't fraud, because there was no actual lie.
But in contract law, witholding pertinent information can constitute misrepresentation.
The facts.
1) Free-to-play and subscription games are very different. Item shops are positively loathed by a lot of players and many players who would happily pay a monthly or lifetime sub wouldn't touch a free-to-play game with a ten-foot-pole.
2) Turbine ran a special offer, selling the lifetime subs at reduced cost just prior to switching to a free-to-play model. That's EXTREMELY suspicious. It's as if they knew that was the lifetime subscription was going to be FAR less appealing after the switch.
I don't know if there's enough there to win a case because laws vary from place to place. But the OP is right to be angry and to seek legal advice.
But they didn't switch to a free to play mode, they added a "free to play" (or "a la carte) model.
Alberel is not right. The op will get exactly what he paid for as far as service.
The only footing that he or anyone who wants to jump into the same boat have is if they:
a, clearly despise any idea of any sort of cash shop, regardless of whether or not it really has any actual effect on the game
b, they never want to support a company that can implement or has games that implement this type of system.
Because as it stands now I have not seen any argument that is convincing except for for the above.
It doesn't constitute fraud because nothing was witheld by Turbine that changes the actual purchased service and makes it anything other than what it is.
In addtion, nothing added with this Turbine Cash shop invalidates or makes their purchased service any lesser and it is still a better value.
So provided that a player has intention to play the game for years coming (which is the whole idea fo the life time sub) people still get the better value with the life time sub.
All this essentially comes down to is that people are angry at Turbine because they added a type of cash shop and regardless that it doesn't really give anyone a significant leg up in the game, they don't like the idea and want nothing to do with the company.
It doesn't matter to me that people like something or hate something but for my tastes I would rather call a spade a spade so the true issue can be discussed.
No, Alberel is right.
If you order a basket of apples and instead receive a basket of bananas of the "same value", that's not necessarily any good to you if what you wanted was apples. You might not like bananas. You might be allergic to them. You might just really feel like some apples.
That is what has happened here. LOTRO has advertised "cheap apples", KNOWING THEY DIDN'T HAVE ANY and then delivered him bananas instead.
I think the biggest confusion lies in the misunderstanding that "lifetime subscription" is from the player's perspective. It was very clear in the purchase agreement that "lifetime" constituted the length of the game in its current incarnation, not the lifetime of the players involvement with the game.
New business model = new game = lifetime subscription OVER. If you didn't read what you agreed to, that's your tough luck.
You should be glad Turbine is allowing lifers to continue their memberships in another form, because according to the purchasing agreement that we all agreed to when purchasing our lifetime subs, they certainly don't have to.
I'd like to see someone take this to court. They'd be laughed right out the front door.
EDIT: Oh, and before all you babies start screaming, "It's not fair!", read this:
From the EULA (you agreed to):
We reserve the right to transfer or cease the operation of the Game at any time or to terminate your license to the Software and your access to the Game at any time, without notice or refund, for any reason whatsoever, including. without limitation, as a result of your breach of this EULA, the Code of Conduct, or the Terms of Service, if we are unable to verify or authenticate any information you provide to us, or if we discontinue offering the Game.
I also printed out the agreement from the lifetime sub when I purchased it, and as soon as I find it, I'll be posting the part that describes the scope the term "lifetime". Then maybe we can shut down this whiny thread for good.
A fanatic is one who can't change his mind and won't change the subject. -Winston Churchill
EDIT: Oh, and before all you babies start screaming, "It's not fair!", read this:
Nope, it's not about fair. And before you pull out your dictionary and start explaining how the EULA allows companies to do whatever the hell they want, let me remind you of something. No one has to buy a lifetime membership, and the first time a company sells lifetime memberships and then shifts to a different "business model" terminates the lifetime memberships and tells them to pony up will probably be the last time that company will be able to sell a lifetime membership under such conditions again. Despite what you think, Turbine has a business interest in not screwing lifetime subscribers for giggles and a cash grab.
I think the lifetime members are being well taken care of here. I think they are making a big misstep with premium members, and I think it was sleazy of them to sell lifetime memberships knowing at the time of the transaction that big changes were coming.
2 weeks? Just give the individual their refund. Anything less than a month should be given a refund, maybe even two. I think it would be a mistake on the players part to want the refund as I don't think the game, for VIP, is going to be a great deal less than what would have happend if it had stayed the same.
parrotpholk-Because we all know the miracle patch fairy shows up the night before release and sprinkles magic dust on the server to make it allllll better.
Bah...The lifers will all be VIPs AND get turbine bucks or whatever to buy anything they are missing. Plus they can apply those turbine points to DDO as well.
No one is getting shafted in this.
But they have a finite amount of bucks. So, logically, there will be something they cannot buy, and thus they will be locked out of content they already payed for.
Wrong.
A Lifetime Subscription means your Subs (the monthly fee) are made for Life (for a 1 off fixed fee).
It is merely an extension of the basic 'length of subscription' offers .. 1 month, 3 months, 6 months, 1 year & Lifetime ...
People frequently misunderstand what it actually is .. you & the OP are just 2 of the people posting in this thread with either the wrong information or the wrong understanding.
If Blizzard had offered a "lifetime option" on the release of WoW, you would STILL have had to purchase the expansions seperately from your subscription payments ....
Got it yet ???.
The OP however is just a moron with an emoragequit tendancy .. the game will probably be a much better & happier place without him (for everyone else).
Bought the lifetime membership 2 weeks ago. The reduced offer was due to run till end June then they switch to F2P half way thru!!!!!.
I contacted Codemasters who say no refunds.
This is fraud.
Beware any payments to this company in any form.
Do NOT use the shop points they give you.
Get in touch with other lifers.
Talk to a lawyer.
Watch the lawyer laugh at you, unless they're the type to go ahead and run a case for you so that they can charge you.
"Oh my, how horrible, someone is criticizing a MMO. Oh yeah, that is what a forum is about, looking at both sides. You rather have to be critical of anything in this genre as of late because the track record of these major studios has just been appalling." -Ozmodan
EDIT: Oh, and before all you babies start screaming, "It's not fair!", read this:
Nope, it's not about fair. And before you pull out your dictionary and start explaining how the EULA allows companies to do whatever the hell they want, let me remind you of something. No one has to buy a lifetime membership, and the first time a company sells lifetime memberships and then shifts to a different "business model" terminates the lifetime memberships and tells them to pony up will probably be the last time that company will be able to sell a lifetime membership under such conditions again. Despite what you think, Turbine has a business interest in not screwing lifetime subscribers for giggles and a cash grab.
I think the lifetime members are being well taken care of here. I think they are making a big misstep with premium members, and I think it was sleazy of them to sell lifetime memberships knowing at the time of the transaction that big changes were coming.
2 weeks? Just give the individual their refund. Anything less than a month should be given a refund, maybe even two. I think it would be a mistake on the players part to want the refund as I don't think the game, for VIP, is going to be a great deal less than what would have happend if it had stayed the same.
You're absolutely right. The issue people seem to be getting hung up on, however, if the difference between "legal" and "reasonable".
For example, let's say you buy a 3-piece stereo system for $1000 on Monday. On Tuesday, the store announces it will give the main receiver away for free and the other two components, the VCR and the DVD, are $500 each. Now, if you purchase all three, it still will cost you $1000. Can you go back the next day and ask for a refund because you don't really need the VCR and you would rather spend $500? Sure. Do they legally have to honor your request? Nope. They may choose to honor it because they want your repeat business or they don't want bad press, but the point is they don't have to do shit. Your purchase was bad timing or your part and it's your tough luck.
Things like this happen constantly. How many times have you purchased something in a store just to have it go on sale a week later? Do you have a right to ask for a refund? Sure, but I highly doubt anyone will give it to you. Maybe if it was a day or two later, but not a week.
So what's the cut-off here? How long should a company continue to reimburse people for their bad luck? A day? A week? A year? Every person who ever purchased a lifetime sub?
Come on. A Lifetime sub isn't that expensive. People spend $200 and act like they just bought a controlling share of the goddamn company.
A fanatic is one who can't change his mind and won't change the subject. -Winston Churchill
You're absolutely right. The issue people seem to be getting hung up on, however, if the difference between "legal" and "reasonable".
......
Your purchase was bad timing or your part and it's your tough luck.
But that's the crux of this issue. It wasn't "bad timing" on the OP's part. Codemasters ran a sale on a product they knew was going to drastically change in the near future, and if the OP had had that information he would not have made the purchase.
And the timing of the sale seems to suggest that Codemasters knew this would be the case.
Looking at the chart, the F2P option looks like it will be more expensive than the P2P option. The only F2P game I ever tried was Wizards101 and I spent A LOT of moolah because I had a personal quest to do all the content in 30 days (but just missed it, lol). So, I don't see a big problem here. A lifetime sub for 75Euro still seems like a pretty fair deal and if you can save your Blizzard points to buy expansions, that sounds pretty good. I agree with what other posters have said, a lifer doesn't get expansions for free anyway in the conventional P2P model.
So, the "cash shop" might not be so bad in this game. But does that mean I will be re-upping my sub? Well, no.... I for one don't believe this game is going to last long enough to get to Mordor given the glacially slow rate of expansions. I also hated the forced grouping grind to get Radiance Armor for a variety of reasons.
For me, the game is a solid 6 months of entertainment. My advise to the OP is to go ahead and play and enjoy. Stop playing when you finish the content, take a break, save up your Blizzard Points and pick it up again when they release new content.
Looking at the chart, the F2P option looks like it will be more expensive than the P2P option. The only F2P game I ever tried was Wizards101 and I spent A LOT of moolah because I had a personal quest to do all the content in 30 days (but just missed it, lol). So, I don't see a big problem here. A lifetime sub for 75Euro still seems like a pretty fair deal and if you can save your Turbine points to buy expansions, that sounds pretty good. I agree with what other posters have said, a lifer doesn't get expansions for free anyway in the conventional P2P model.
So, the "cash shop" might not be so bad in this game. But does that mean I will be re-upping my sub? Well, no.... I for one don't believe this game is going to last long enough to get to Mordor given the glacially slow rate of expansions. I also hated the forced grouping grind to get Radiance Armor for a variety of reasons.
For me, the game is a solid 6 months of entertainment. My advise to the OP is to go ahead and play and enjoy. Stop playing when you finish the content, take a break, save up your Turbine Points and pick it up again when they release new content.
Fixed that for you.
"Oh my, how horrible, someone is criticizing a MMO. Oh yeah, that is what a forum is about, looking at both sides. You rather have to be critical of anything in this genre as of late because the track record of these major studios has just been appalling." -Ozmodan
You're absolutely right. The issue people seem to be getting hung up on, however, if the difference between "legal" and "reasonable".
......
Your purchase was bad timing or your part and it's your tough luck.
But that's the crux of this issue. It wasn't "bad timing" on the OP's part. Codemasters ran a sale on a product they knew was going to drastically change in the near future, and if the OP had had that information he would not have made the purchase.
And the timing of the sale seems to suggest that Codemasters knew this would be the case.
So it may very well be illegal.
I remember the Xbox HD DVD drive being on sale, then shortly afterwards it got discontinued. It happens everywhere. Usuually most things that goes on sale, shortly afterwards gets discontinued.
The fact they put it on sale makes it even more legal.
Then there is the other aspect of people just panicking and fearing the worst of what this is going to bring. Someone said they ended up spending $40 a month from stuff in the store, probably just spending a $1 here and there, but when added up is greater than the cost of a monthly fee! With LT subs you won't need to pay for any of this.
As for the type of people joining that is just a prejudice view and is as bad as racism, especially when may not have experienced a game with this payment model before, as it is not completley free to play, and once people realise they will need to spend money to progress then they will leave, and is no different than a free trial
I don't think anyone who has lifetime subs to CO and STO should be commenting on what a good deal is.
Thats just prejudice
I don't see the problem in having subs to CO and STO, you still have to sub to both CO and STO separetly, its not built into the same package like SOE games, and since my sub ran out on City of Heroes, I haven't subbed to that.
I like Star Trek more than Lord of the Rings, which is why I got LT sub to CO to be guarnteed Beta, plus CO is a game a friend of mine played. I bought 2 LOTRO LT subs and was getting ready to buy 3 or 4 LT subs to STO but then changed my mind, they didn't seem worth it. LOTRO was and still is worth the LT sub, even at full price
You're absolutely right. The issue people seem to be getting hung up on, however, if the difference between "legal" and "reasonable".
......
Your purchase was bad timing or your part and it's your tough luck.
But that's the crux of this issue. It wasn't "bad timing" on the OP's part. Codemasters ran a sale on a product they knew was going to drastically change in the near future, and if the OP had had that information he would not have made the purchase.
And the timing of the sale seems to suggest that Codemasters knew this would be the case.
So it may very well be illegal.
But the game isn't changing drastically, monthly subs and LT subs are getting exactly the same core gameplay mechanics as they had before the f2p is introduced. The only difference is going to be in the methods of gettng access to the content. There is absolutely no basis for a bait and switch argument here. If they were offering the LT subs for the current game and then switched it over to F2P ONLY then maybe there would be basis, but if the underlying game mechanics don't change then the game is essentially the same.
What is really happening here is that the OP has some preconcieved notion that by introducing a F2P option Turbine is going to suddenly change the way the game works and turn it into one of the many nickel-and-dime korean grindfest. Using DDO as an example that is clearly not the case.
All that this change really means is that people interested in playing the game have some flexibility as to how they can do it. The hardcore players (20-30 hrs a week) can continue on with the payed sub or LT sub option and play exactly like they do now, casual players can play without paying monthly and can just unlock stuff when they need it or are ready to run it (aka Premium accounts). The f2p option is essentially a glorified trial with a few extras tossed in to entice players to convert.
It's amazing how many people are willfully ignorant when the answers are just a google search away.
Comments
What I can gatther, you have to keep paying monthly / playing to keep the content - if you lapse you'll lose it all and go back to the base model.
If you acquire more char slots on the F2P model
then stop playing for a while, you will probably find yourself
back with 1 usueable char and the others locked out
Star Trek Online - Best Free MMORPG of 2012
Not entirely sure but from what i have read, once content is unlocked, or in the case of those who have already unlocked areas that are soon to be locked, will not need to be unlocked again, all content from what i have read can be unlocked in game without actually paying real money like in DDo by doing certain quest chains will reward you in coins or some other kind of way to be able to unlock it without digging in your pockets.
I have no issues with the F2P model i knew it would happen sooner or later, i do however have issues with my original post and that is that they have been charging me, yet have banned me for who knows what, this to me unless they can fix it and compensate me is my way of saying cya the hell later, i will not pay or play a game if they have intentions or have ripped me off, there customer service and restrictions they put on people is a joke, My account is active (but banned) and i cannot even access the forums because according tho them i dont have an active account, ( which i assume is because they have banned me) piss poor way to treat already paying customers.
If you acquire more char slots on the F2P / Premium model
then stop playing for a while, you will probably find yourself
back with 1 usueable char and the others locked out and back
on the F2P model even though you were on the Premium
You've got to keep paying/playing to keep those slots
You buy slots with the points that you use to buy other
stuff, so in the end you will not be able to keep up by
getting everything from the points you get from playing
and need to pay for more.
Star Trek Online - Best Free MMORPG of 2012
Well i look at it this way, if you are playing more than one character at a time then you have intentions of putting some time into the game so i don't think it will matter too much, but again it is not a breaking point imo for those who don't want to pay to result in having pay, sure if you want to have multiple chars then yeah you may have to pay initially but i know from exp with DDO that i have kept up with all those that do pay but yet i do not, it depends on how much time you as a person wants to put into the game, if ppl can access what the paying ppl can without paying, then they will do that, why would you not?
Sure you get some nifty perks by subbing but it is not game breaking imo.
There is going to be alot of stuff that a F2P person can not access
and thereby not be able to acquire enough points to lift the
restrictions. I highly doubt people will get points by just wandering
about., they would need to play the game and complete quests to
get points to unlock more of the game, but as the game is all locked out
will not be able to get the points to unlock the game, so therefore people
will have to buy the points to unlock game. A VIP player will have access
to everything and will be able to acquire loads of points by playing.
Star Trek Online - Best Free MMORPG of 2012
Well if it works like DDO then players will be able to unlock stuff just by questing, i have never spent a cent in DDO and i have unlocked all the chars and most quest (well Quest i am upto atleast) so i think ppl will be able to play the game without subbing and get as much as the P2P ppl do but i guess we will see when it finally happens, if i am still around that is.
But they didn't switch to a free to play mode, they added a "free to play" (or "a la carte) model.
Alberel is not right. The op will get exactly what he paid for as far as service.
The only footing that he or anyone who wants to jump into the same boat have is if they:
a, clearly despise any idea of any sort of cash shop, regardless of whether or not it really has any actual effect on the game
b, they never want to support a company that can implement or has games that implement this type of system.
Because as it stands now I have not seen any argument that is convincing except for for the above.
It doesn't constitute fraud because nothing was witheld by Turbine that changes the actual purchased service and makes it anything other than what it is.
In addtion, nothing added with this Turbine Cash shop invalidates or makes their purchased service any lesser and it is still a better value.
So provided that a player has intention to play the game for years coming (which is the whole idea fo the life time sub) people still get the better value with the life time sub.
All this essentially comes down to is that people are angry at Turbine because they added a type of cash shop and regardless that it doesn't really give anyone a significant leg up in the game, they don't like the idea and want nothing to do with the company.
It doesn't matter to me that people like something or hate something but for my tastes I would rather call a spade a spade so the true issue can be discussed.
Godfred's Tomb Trailer: https://youtu.be/-nsXGddj_4w
Original Skyrim: https://www.nexusmods.com/skyrim/mods/109547
Serph toze kindly has started a walk-through. https://youtu.be/UIelCK-lldo
Yes but as I've said its not about the value of what they are receiving. It about getting what they paid for.
They got exactly what they paid for.
the free to play option is not a subsccription. if anything it is Access to the game for free but not access to everything unless they pay something up front or if the game is like ddo then need to unlock content by jumping through whatever hoops are needed in order to do that.
I would say that on the surface it would be a compelling argument if we were just talking about being able to log into the game ad infinitum but what each group gets is very different.
Godfred's Tomb Trailer: https://youtu.be/-nsXGddj_4w
Original Skyrim: https://www.nexusmods.com/skyrim/mods/109547
Serph toze kindly has started a walk-through. https://youtu.be/UIelCK-lldo
It is not what us lifetime VIP members got. Sure we get 500 points. Sure I get to keep my level 65 characters. What I am worried about is the going forward option. Ok say we add endeelwath or whatever it is Isendgaurd is in. How much do I have to pay in points to unlock that? 500 points a month is nothing if the cost of unlocking a new area is going to be 10,000 points. Se my drift. This entrie thing of seperated out types of subscriptions is creating an entire class of have's vs the have nots. Its bad enough we already have the game segreagated due to radaince, now were creating more class tiers of seperation. Plus what happens going forward as to how many points you have to buy or not have to buy. Folks think the lifetimers got handled good, my entire thing is yea we get some perks up front but, honestly I see this as a way of making the lifetime members cough up a hole lot more money now than just the original sub that we got, and I mean a whole lotr more money.
Is it fraud, i think its close to boarderline.
Is it unethical you bet your bottom dollar.
Do I want to play the LOTRO ever again, No! Will I ever play another game made by turbine, No! The reason why is you cant trust them to do the right thing.
You won't pay anything to unlock new content, as a subscriber you will get access to it already, thats the way it already works in DDO.
F2P players however will have to buy that new content, they may even have to buy certain classes like the warden and rune keeper, just as DDO has done with the Monk.
Btw on a personal note I would never ever buy a lifetime sub, it takes the power away from me as a customer when I give the developers all the money they will ever get from me, my voice is now diminished because even if I walked away from the game the devs still had all the money out of me.
No, Alberel is right.
If you order a basket of apples and instead receive a basket of bananas of the "same value", that's not necessarily any good to you if what you wanted was apples. You might not like bananas. You might be allergic to them. You might just really feel like some apples.
That is what has happened here. LOTRO has advertised "cheap apples", KNOWING THEY DIDN'T HAVE ANY and then delivered him bananas instead.
i.e. bait and switch.
I think the biggest confusion lies in the misunderstanding that "lifetime subscription" is from the player's perspective. It was very clear in the purchase agreement that "lifetime" constituted the length of the game in its current incarnation, not the lifetime of the players involvement with the game.
New business model = new game = lifetime subscription OVER. If you didn't read what you agreed to, that's your tough luck.
You should be glad Turbine is allowing lifers to continue their memberships in another form, because according to the purchasing agreement that we all agreed to when purchasing our lifetime subs, they certainly don't have to.
I'd like to see someone take this to court. They'd be laughed right out the front door.
EDIT: Oh, and before all you babies start screaming, "It's not fair!", read this:
From the EULA (you agreed to):
We reserve the right to transfer or cease the operation of the Game at any time or to terminate your license to the Software and your access to the Game at any time, without notice or refund, for any reason whatsoever, including. without limitation, as a result of your breach of this EULA, the Code of Conduct, or the Terms of Service, if we are unable to verify or authenticate any information you provide to us, or if we discontinue offering the Game.
I also printed out the agreement from the lifetime sub when I purchased it, and as soon as I find it, I'll be posting the part that describes the scope the term "lifetime". Then maybe we can shut down this whiny thread for good.
Nope, it's not about fair. And before you pull out your dictionary and start explaining how the EULA allows companies to do whatever the hell they want, let me remind you of something. No one has to buy a lifetime membership, and the first time a company sells lifetime memberships and then shifts to a different "business model" terminates the lifetime memberships and tells them to pony up will probably be the last time that company will be able to sell a lifetime membership under such conditions again. Despite what you think, Turbine has a business interest in not screwing lifetime subscribers for giggles and a cash grab.
I think the lifetime members are being well taken care of here. I think they are making a big misstep with premium members, and I think it was sleazy of them to sell lifetime memberships knowing at the time of the transaction that big changes were coming.
2 weeks? Just give the individual their refund. Anything less than a month should be given a refund, maybe even two. I think it would be a mistake on the players part to want the refund as I don't think the game, for VIP, is going to be a great deal less than what would have happend if it had stayed the same.
parrotpholk-Because we all know the miracle patch fairy shows up the night before release and sprinkles magic dust on the server to make it allllll better.
Wrong.
A Lifetime Subscription means your Subs (the monthly fee) are made for Life (for a 1 off fixed fee).
It is merely an extension of the basic 'length of subscription' offers .. 1 month, 3 months, 6 months, 1 year & Lifetime ...
People frequently misunderstand what it actually is .. you & the OP are just 2 of the people posting in this thread with either the wrong information or the wrong understanding.
If Blizzard had offered a "lifetime option" on the release of WoW, you would STILL have had to purchase the expansions seperately from your subscription payments ....
Got it yet ???.
The OP however is just a moron with an emoragequit tendancy .. the game will probably be a much better & happier place without him (for everyone else).
Watch the lawyer laugh at you, unless they're the type to go ahead and run a case for you so that they can charge you.
"Oh my, how horrible, someone is criticizing a MMO. Oh yeah, that is what a forum is about, looking at both sides. You rather have to be critical of anything in this genre as of late because the track record of these major studios has just been appalling." -Ozmodan
You're absolutely right. The issue people seem to be getting hung up on, however, if the difference between "legal" and "reasonable".
For example, let's say you buy a 3-piece stereo system for $1000 on Monday. On Tuesday, the store announces it will give the main receiver away for free and the other two components, the VCR and the DVD, are $500 each. Now, if you purchase all three, it still will cost you $1000. Can you go back the next day and ask for a refund because you don't really need the VCR and you would rather spend $500? Sure. Do they legally have to honor your request? Nope. They may choose to honor it because they want your repeat business or they don't want bad press, but the point is they don't have to do shit. Your purchase was bad timing or your part and it's your tough luck.
Things like this happen constantly. How many times have you purchased something in a store just to have it go on sale a week later? Do you have a right to ask for a refund? Sure, but I highly doubt anyone will give it to you. Maybe if it was a day or two later, but not a week.
So what's the cut-off here? How long should a company continue to reimburse people for their bad luck? A day? A week? A year? Every person who ever purchased a lifetime sub?
Come on. A Lifetime sub isn't that expensive. People spend $200 and act like they just bought a controlling share of the goddamn company.
But that's the crux of this issue. It wasn't "bad timing" on the OP's part. Codemasters ran a sale on a product they knew was going to drastically change in the near future, and if the OP had had that information he would not have made the purchase.
And the timing of the sale seems to suggest that Codemasters knew this would be the case.
So it may very well be illegal.
Looking at the chart, the F2P option looks like it will be more expensive than the P2P option. The only F2P game I ever tried was Wizards101 and I spent A LOT of moolah because I had a personal quest to do all the content in 30 days (but just missed it, lol). So, I don't see a big problem here. A lifetime sub for 75Euro still seems like a pretty fair deal and if you can save your Blizzard points to buy expansions, that sounds pretty good. I agree with what other posters have said, a lifer doesn't get expansions for free anyway in the conventional P2P model.
So, the "cash shop" might not be so bad in this game. But does that mean I will be re-upping my sub? Well, no.... I for one don't believe this game is going to last long enough to get to Mordor given the glacially slow rate of expansions. I also hated the forced grouping grind to get Radiance Armor for a variety of reasons.
For me, the game is a solid 6 months of entertainment. My advise to the OP is to go ahead and play and enjoy. Stop playing when you finish the content, take a break, save up your Blizzard Points and pick it up again when they release new content.
Ebay your account. There are a lot of people that would like to buy the lifetime deal but can't because it is no longer available.
In America I have bad teeth. If I lived in England my teeth would be perfect.
Fixed that for you.
"Oh my, how horrible, someone is criticizing a MMO. Oh yeah, that is what a forum is about, looking at both sides. You rather have to be critical of anything in this genre as of late because the track record of these major studios has just been appalling." -Ozmodan
I remember the Xbox HD DVD drive being on sale, then shortly afterwards it got discontinued. It happens everywhere. Usuually most things that goes on sale, shortly afterwards gets discontinued.
The fact they put it on sale makes it even more legal.
Then there is the other aspect of people just panicking and fearing the worst of what this is going to bring. Someone said they ended up spending $40 a month from stuff in the store, probably just spending a $1 here and there, but when added up is greater than the cost of a monthly fee! With LT subs you won't need to pay for any of this.
As for the type of people joining that is just a prejudice view and is as bad as racism, especially when may not have experienced a game with this payment model before, as it is not completley free to play, and once people realise they will need to spend money to progress then they will leave, and is no different than a free trial
Star Trek Online - Best Free MMORPG of 2012
Might not be fraud, but certainly is poor form.
Thats just prejudice
I don't see the problem in having subs to CO and STO, you still have to sub to both CO and STO separetly, its not built into the same package like SOE games, and since my sub ran out on City of Heroes, I haven't subbed to that.
I like Star Trek more than Lord of the Rings, which is why I got LT sub to CO to be guarnteed Beta, plus CO is a game a friend of mine played. I bought 2 LOTRO LT subs and was getting ready to buy 3 or 4 LT subs to STO but then changed my mind, they didn't seem worth it. LOTRO was and still is worth the LT sub, even at full price
Star Trek Online - Best Free MMORPG of 2012
But the game isn't changing drastically, monthly subs and LT subs are getting exactly the same core gameplay mechanics as they had before the f2p is introduced. The only difference is going to be in the methods of gettng access to the content. There is absolutely no basis for a bait and switch argument here. If they were offering the LT subs for the current game and then switched it over to F2P ONLY then maybe there would be basis, but if the underlying game mechanics don't change then the game is essentially the same.
What is really happening here is that the OP has some preconcieved notion that by introducing a F2P option Turbine is going to suddenly change the way the game works and turn it into one of the many nickel-and-dime korean grindfest. Using DDO as an example that is clearly not the case.
All that this change really means is that people interested in playing the game have some flexibility as to how they can do it. The hardcore players (20-30 hrs a week) can continue on with the payed sub or LT sub option and play exactly like they do now, casual players can play without paying monthly and can just unlock stuff when they need it or are ready to run it (aka Premium accounts). The f2p option is essentially a glorified trial with a few extras tossed in to entice players to convert.
It's amazing how many people are willfully ignorant when the answers are just a google search away.