I agree the only PvP I have partaken in is consensual and specifically PvP relegated to specific zones and that's the way I prefer it.
Unfortunately for you PvPers you are a minority an outspoken (not meant to be negative) minority - and publishers invest in where they make the most money. Which means us carebears, casuals and part-time players will inevitably get the better deal.
PvP is changing just like PvE is changing. Downhill or not, that really depends on your personal preferences. The thing about PvP is that everybody's got their own things they want to nitpick about it. Some like FFA PvP, some like faction based PvP, some like RvR, some want siege like DAOC, some like arena, some like BG's.
PvP is simply different these days, because instanced PvP is proving to be more popular and thus more games are moving towards utilizing battlegrounds.
As a long term mmo gamer, starting with Eq1 rallos zek server at kunark launch... in my most humble opinion PVP died in a horrible fire years ago. The number of decently balanced and working games that have pvp as the main focus or draw that are actully sucessful or still in operation can be counted on 1 hand. Eve online ... darkfall.... Mortal ?? Juries still out on the last one.
Contrary to popular belief, its not free for all, its not corpse looting, zergs, noobs, whiners, QQers, carebears nightelves, harry potter or anything else that killed pvp in mmorpgs these days.
You know what REALLY killed pvp? Bad game design. Yep. Not the hardcore griefers, not the carebear sissy noobs... Nope. The problem with MOST games is that pvp is tacked on as an afterthought. PVP is something that is really awesome that can be enjoyed by most players but it is a feature that is rarely implemented correctly in most games.
Eve online is the only game I have ever played that has large populations of "PVE only" or "carebear" type players coexsisting in harmony with hardcore pvpers in a game universe where might makes right and diplomacy is often solved with mega pulse lasers.
In order for pvp to thrive, it needs to have consequence. IT needs to have checks and balanced that benefit both pvper and carebear. If you allow griefing to run rampant unchecked in any sort of open pvp enviroment it will cause a large amount of people to QUIT. Lets face it, no one likes being ganked over and over and over again. Total, unrestricted limitless pvp wont work, you need wolves to hunt sheep but the sheep need stuff to do to defend vs wolf or sooner or later the sheep goes extinct from depopulation.
Balance is another huge hurdle for pvp games as well. Specifically in games that are level and class based. If a game has pvp but is not balanced for it, it only leads to problems. WE ALL have played SOME mmorpg at SOME point in time where there was a FOTM class or build and all the cool kids rolled class X, and all the scrubby noobs were A B C D ... Forums QQ nerf XYZ this is overpowered this game sux blah blah... IS a result of poor game design.
I could point the fingers at the pvp people (like myself), call them a bunch of leet immature twats with no skill that just want the iwin button classes, but is it really fair? People that play FOTM classes are just taking advantage of the tools that the devs gave them. Complaining about ganking and griefing and FOTM in a poorly built pvp enviroment is akin to complaining about rampant murders and shootings in a third world country with no stable governent that can control violence.
People, like real life, and even MORE SO in videogames, where your anon, will take advantage to get ahead. Its human nature to want to find "the easy way out" even if its at others expense...
Back to eve online... Great game, great balance. Carebears in eve actully have a voice, they have a purpose in the gameworld, and thats what gives them meaning. PVP in eve wouldnt work without carebears. We need carebears to build the fancy t2 ships and modules that us pvpers will generally loose in battle before the end of the week, sometimes before the end of the day.
Also, in eve, carebears have money. Pvp cost money, pvpers usually dont have alot of money unless their really, really, good. Money in eve can be used as a weapon just as easily as a fleet of megathrons. As a former high sec wardeck corp of 8 people, worst part was going to fight a carebear corp only to be wardecked by several other corps that are freinds or paid clients of theirs. Nothing makes a bunch of dedicated carebear griefers rethink their actions more than a bigger badder corp or guild with more skilled players.
I cant count the number of times in eve I was like Yay Im going to go gank this carebear corp fkin noobs... with a email "XYZ PVP corp has DECLARED WAR ON YOU." Carebears are like SUPRISE! Butsecks!!! Mass pvp and losses ensue for both sides, while carebears sit around doing what they want to do while the two pvp corps fight to the death. Cant fight yourself? Hire protection FTW.
A game where carebears dont have any power or say and are just there to be shat on will fail, without doubt. Games that allow carebears and pvper and greifers to co exsist with checks and balances WILL suceed... EVE Online makes my point.
I contend that MMO PvP has pretty much always sucked, and probably always will suck, because of the natural imbalance of a game where level, classes, and gear are so important. The fact of the matter is that in MMOs most every fight is far more about what you had (gear) and what you where (level, class) when the fight started rather than what you do during the fight.
I've been trying to find a good game with fun PvP, Darkfall was ok at the beginning but got boring real quick, Mortal online is just laughable and not considered a real mmo to me and about 95% of it's subscribers, played Vanguard for 3 years on the PvP server and had a friggin blast tell SOE did what they do best and screwed the game over, I love FFA PvP and RvR, never tried Warhammer as the reviews and friends said it's terrible,AoC was fun tell level 80 bottlenecked, still thinking of trying it now with the new expansion,any of you have a suggestion for a good PvP game, All Points Bulletin will keep me going for awhile but im into the fantasy mmo pvp type, It just seems MMO game makers can't get it together and make a good PvP game, it very well could just be me but most games don't last long anymore, any suggestions would be appreciated
I am not a fan of free-for-all, PVP anywhere you like games.
Most new mmo games now have "battlegrounds" type PVP.
As a result, I'd say PVP is going uphill. All depends on who you ask.
There is no argument, PvP has gone way downhill, even battleground PvP.
Now, I don't mind FFA PvP combat, but I prefer the DAoC RvR model. Currently the only game to do RvR right (figures, they invented it).
DAoC had battlegrounds, but they weren't FPS rounds about getting the most points, they weren't silly pointless objectives where players would run past eachother on the way to eachothers castle instead of fighting.
The battlegrounds were a persistant uninstanced zone where lower level players could compete against eachother for control of a central keep in the center. Owning this keep would give realm point and leveling bonuses to all players in the battleground's level gap throughout the game, so there was a good reason to have it. If you captured it, it stayed captured even if the battlegrounds were empty, until someone took it from you by force. Serious tactics came into play, or you could go rogue and form your own roving band of players, occasionally helping your own side, but mostly just looking for kills. The scale was pretty large too.
Now battlegrounds are just a laugh riot joke.
And RvR? How can a game from 2001 handle 500 man relic keep battles with naval combat and at least 8 kinds of siege engine, but modern games cap off at around 40?
Darkfall was a breath of fresh air in the dying PvP market, but it wasn't enough. We need a DAoC 2.
And for the guy saying "PvP MMOs were never uphill and were never about skill" then you clearly didn't play DAoC. It was the second most popular MMO at its time, behind EverQuest.
I have to agree with you. I am no fan of ffa pvp but I truly loved DAoC rvr. I think that is perfect form of pvp as you have safe areas for people who do not wish to partake in it and if you enter the area you do so at your own risk. Great times were had hiding in Darkness Falls waiting for the damn hibbies to come in.
Comments
I do my best to avoid FFA pvp, especially ones that involve full loot.
I like pvp to be consensus. I don't see why I'm doing my regular pve stuff, and some guy just come gank me and took all the stuff I just farmed.
I'm sure alot of people like FFA pvp. But it won't get my subscription, and I'm sure there are alot of people like me.
I agree the only PvP I have partaken in is consensual and specifically PvP relegated to specific zones and that's the way I prefer it.
Unfortunately for you PvPers you are a minority an outspoken (not meant to be negative) minority - and publishers invest in where they make the most money. Which means us carebears, casuals and part-time players will inevitably get the better deal.
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The angel of death has been abroad throughout the land; you may almost hear the beating of his wings.
House of Commons, 23 Feb. 1855
No
PvP is changing just like PvE is changing. Downhill or not, that really depends on your personal preferences. The thing about PvP is that everybody's got their own things they want to nitpick about it. Some like FFA PvP, some like faction based PvP, some like RvR, some want siege like DAOC, some like arena, some like BG's.
PvP is simply different these days, because instanced PvP is proving to be more popular and thus more games are moving towards utilizing battlegrounds.
EQ1-AC1-DAOC-FFXI-L2-EQ2-WoW-DDO-GW-LoTR-VG-WAR-GW2-ESO
As a long term mmo gamer, starting with Eq1 rallos zek server at kunark launch... in my most humble opinion PVP died in a horrible fire years ago. The number of decently balanced and working games that have pvp as the main focus or draw that are actully sucessful or still in operation can be counted on 1 hand. Eve online ... darkfall.... Mortal ?? Juries still out on the last one.
Contrary to popular belief, its not free for all, its not corpse looting, zergs, noobs, whiners, QQers, carebears nightelves, harry potter or anything else that killed pvp in mmorpgs these days.
You know what REALLY killed pvp? Bad game design. Yep. Not the hardcore griefers, not the carebear sissy noobs... Nope. The problem with MOST games is that pvp is tacked on as an afterthought. PVP is something that is really awesome that can be enjoyed by most players but it is a feature that is rarely implemented correctly in most games.
Eve online is the only game I have ever played that has large populations of "PVE only" or "carebear" type players coexsisting in harmony with hardcore pvpers in a game universe where might makes right and diplomacy is often solved with mega pulse lasers.
In order for pvp to thrive, it needs to have consequence. IT needs to have checks and balanced that benefit both pvper and carebear. If you allow griefing to run rampant unchecked in any sort of open pvp enviroment it will cause a large amount of people to QUIT. Lets face it, no one likes being ganked over and over and over again. Total, unrestricted limitless pvp wont work, you need wolves to hunt sheep but the sheep need stuff to do to defend vs wolf or sooner or later the sheep goes extinct from depopulation.
Balance is another huge hurdle for pvp games as well. Specifically in games that are level and class based. If a game has pvp but is not balanced for it, it only leads to problems. WE ALL have played SOME mmorpg at SOME point in time where there was a FOTM class or build and all the cool kids rolled class X, and all the scrubby noobs were A B C D ... Forums QQ nerf XYZ this is overpowered this game sux blah blah... IS a result of poor game design.
I could point the fingers at the pvp people (like myself), call them a bunch of leet immature twats with no skill that just want the iwin button classes, but is it really fair? People that play FOTM classes are just taking advantage of the tools that the devs gave them. Complaining about ganking and griefing and FOTM in a poorly built pvp enviroment is akin to complaining about rampant murders and shootings in a third world country with no stable governent that can control violence.
People, like real life, and even MORE SO in videogames, where your anon, will take advantage to get ahead. Its human nature to want to find "the easy way out" even if its at others expense...
Back to eve online... Great game, great balance. Carebears in eve actully have a voice, they have a purpose in the gameworld, and thats what gives them meaning. PVP in eve wouldnt work without carebears. We need carebears to build the fancy t2 ships and modules that us pvpers will generally loose in battle before the end of the week, sometimes before the end of the day.
Also, in eve, carebears have money. Pvp cost money, pvpers usually dont have alot of money unless their really, really, good. Money in eve can be used as a weapon just as easily as a fleet of megathrons. As a former high sec wardeck corp of 8 people, worst part was going to fight a carebear corp only to be wardecked by several other corps that are freinds or paid clients of theirs. Nothing makes a bunch of dedicated carebear griefers rethink their actions more than a bigger badder corp or guild with more skilled players.
I cant count the number of times in eve I was like Yay Im going to go gank this carebear corp fkin noobs... with a email "XYZ PVP corp has DECLARED WAR ON YOU." Carebears are like SUPRISE! Butsecks!!! Mass pvp and losses ensue for both sides, while carebears sit around doing what they want to do while the two pvp corps fight to the death. Cant fight yourself? Hire protection FTW.
A game where carebears dont have any power or say and are just there to be shat on will fail, without doubt. Games that allow carebears and pvper and greifers to co exsist with checks and balances WILL suceed... EVE Online makes my point.
/end wall of text
+1
I have to agree with you. I am no fan of ffa pvp but I truly loved DAoC rvr. I think that is perfect form of pvp as you have safe areas for people who do not wish to partake in it and if you enter the area you do so at your own risk. Great times were had hiding in Darkness Falls waiting for the damn hibbies to come in.