I am yet to be explained by someone about how can i play a game for two years straight, feel rewarded and feel like my character is making actual, meaningful progression and advancement yet be killed by someone who´s been playing for a week or two.
But I agree with the power gap issue. Lorewise it makes no sense that someone is 10 or 100 times more powerful as someone else.
It's totally weird how person A is dying to a rat and person B is able to kill a dragon. It makes no sense at all.
It makes sense depending on the world and storyline
Magic makes anything possible, I mean if you are going to sit and play logic police than please explain how a fireball is being pulled out of the air and thrown at someone?
The moment you accept magical ability in a game you also accept the ability for a human body to surpass another human body in magical ways that have no bearing on reality (and dont even get me started on how this applies to non humans)
By your logic "oh thats totally wierd" you shouldnt even have a dragon in the game at all as you make it sound like everything should be reality based
Magic allows everything to make sense in a fantasy setting
I am yet to be explained by someone about how can i play a game for two years straight, feel rewarded and feel like my character is making actual, meaningful progression and advancement yet be killed by someone who´s been playing for a week or two.
depends on what you call meaningful progress
in real life you can spend 2 years or 50 years building up your life, your career, your friendships, your knowledge, etc and still easily die to any random stranger of almost any age or experience level
progress in reality can be measured by any means you wish: number of fights won, number of cars owned, volume of bank account, length of career, pick one, invent one, it really doesnt matter how you decide to track progress in real life as while you can certainly make progress and achieve a variety of thihgs in the real world, you never achieve immortality or remove yourself from the risk of being killed by those younger or even weaker than you
now im not saying this would make a fun game, thats another debate, but you can certainly have meaningful progress of a character without making them immune to low level players
please for the love of god do not put this crap into mmorpgs. Games are already screwed up enough and the last thing that needs to be added is free cake for everyone. there is no need to close the gap between people who play more..and people who play less. If anything people who play more should receive more while people who play less can still hang in there.
QFT!
All those memories will be lost in time, like tears in the rain.
I am yet to be explained by someone about how can i play a game for two years straight, feel rewarded and feel like my character is making actual, meaningful progression and advancement yet be killed by someone who´s been playing for a week or two.
If equipment tiers and/or large power increases are what make you feel rewarded then that is fine. We are not going to be able to present an arguent that changes your mind. Not everyone wants this type of gameplay and different games can be made to suit differences in preferences. However, compromises can be reached...
Scenario, characters are max level....
What if the advancment was only 5% difference or less in character ability?
What if the advancement was only 5% difference or less in character ability and that difference did not hinder anyone from experiencing content?
What if advancement was purely cosmetic. This could be character appearance, vanity pets, skill appearance changes, etc. Anything cosmetic.
What if advacement was purely story?
What if there is no advacement past skillup/levelup and everything is just dungeon crawling?
Forever looking for employment. Life is rather dull without it.
Permadeath would fix the static power levels, assuming of course there were infrastructure in place to allow for more than just themeparking.
Nothing lasts forever.
Mess with this basic truism and people become dissatisfied. Once you have your lvl capped or skill capped, the artificial nature of the game world becomes more prominent.
There is so much you can do endgame, over, and over again. There is no risk. No threat. Its boring. No wonder people are disgruntled with today's mmorpg's.
I am all for permanent death, skill decay, consumable armor and weaponry and full loot. These things are what keeps games dynamic, especially in multiplayer ones.
Crestlin321, adding new skills are well and fine, but once you go beyond +200 different skills things would start to become ridiculous menu scrolling exercises. On top of that, whether you advance vertically or depth as you put it, or advance horizontally or breadth as you say, its still advancement, you just changed the angle.
Asking for permadeath is just macho BS, you dont have the balls to actually go through with it
The simple truth is EVERY GAME has the option for permadeath, its called the delete button
I dare you to delete your characters every time you die
Please come back and tell us how much fun you had restarting your characters after every death
There is a reason no real MMO game forces permadeath on players: ITS NOT FUN beyond the first few times which means it would kill any subscription based game
Permadeath only works in games where it is purely an option (like diablo2 after you've mastered the game and have nothing better to do but brag). Not even the buik of single player games enforce permadeath (most games that are not "arcade" games have save points where you can at least restart a few times, or more often infiinitely)
Every macho moron on the planet likes to show off and ask for permadeath, but none of you actually delete your characters even tho the option for permadeath already exists
I am yet to be explained by someone about how can i play a game for two years straight, feel rewarded and feel like my character is making actual, meaningful progression and advancement yet be killed by someone who´s been playing for a week or two.
If equipment tiers and/or large power increases are what make you feel rewarded then that is fine. We are not going to be able to present an arguent that changes your mind. Not everyone wants this type of gameplay and different games can be made to suit differences in preferences. However, compromises can be reached...
Scenario, characters are max level....
What if the advancment was only 5% difference or less in character ability?
What if the advancement was only 5% difference or less in character ability and that difference did not hinder anyone from experiencing content?
What if advancement was purely cosmetic. This could be character appearance, vanity pets, skill appearance changes, etc. Anything cosmetic.
What if advacement was purely story?
What if there is no advacement past skillup/levelup and everything is just dungeon crawling?
That would make a crappy MMO and prolly go belly-up in the first month.
All those memories will be lost in time, like tears in the rain.
I am yet to be explained by someone about how can i play a game for two years straight, feel rewarded and feel like my character is making actual, meaningful progression and advancement yet be killed by someone who´s been playing for a week or two.
If equipment tiers and/or large power increases are what make you feel rewarded then that is fine. We are not going to be able to present an arguent that changes your mind. Not everyone wants this type of gameplay and different games can be made to suit differences in preferences. However, compromises can be reached...
Scenario, characters are max level....
What if the advancment was only 5% difference or less in character ability?
What if the advancement was only 5% difference or less in character ability and that difference did not hinder anyone from experiencing content?
What if advancement was purely cosmetic. This could be character appearance, vanity pets, skill appearance changes, etc. Anything cosmetic.
What if advacement was purely story?
What if there is no advacement past skillup/levelup and everything is just dungeon crawling?
That would make a crappy MMO and prolly go belly-up in the first month.
Which scenario?
And if I have to actually name successful MMOs past and present that had a near zero character power gain post level/skill up...
Forever looking for employment. Life is rather dull without it.
Comparison with real life actually supports the “power gap” solution.
To train a longbow archer (or a ninja) required years of “grinding”. In order to collect enough money to purchase an expensive plate armor and a battle horse it was necessary to serve nearly the whole life for a sovereign (unless you were from a rich noble family).
No, real life does not support the power gap theory: real life I don't care how hard you train, any idiot can still kill you in one shot if you arent paying attention
In power gap games a newb can swing a sword at you for hours and you wouldnt even know they exist
In real life your years of training may improve your odds, but they do not guarantee immortality or instant win on your bad days
in power gap you dont even have to pay attention to the game, or even be at your keyboard and you would still win vs someone lower level than you
In your real life example can the longbow archer that trained for years win while he is asleep? no?
in a power gap game, if you are far enough level above the other you quite frankly can be asleep and the newb still cant touch you
I am yet to be explained by someone about how can i play a game for two years straight, feel rewarded and feel like my character is making actual, meaningful progression and advancement yet be killed by someone who´s been playing for a week or two.
If equipment tiers and/or large power increases are what make you feel rewarded then that is fine. We are not going to be able to present an arguent that changes your mind. Not everyone wants this type of gameplay and different games can be made to suit differences in preferences. However, compromises can be reached...
Scenario, characters are max level....
What if the advancment was only 5% difference or less in character ability?
What if the advancement was only 5% difference or less in character ability and that difference did not hinder anyone from experiencing content?
What if advancement was purely cosmetic. This could be character appearance, vanity pets, skill appearance changes, etc. Anything cosmetic.
What if advacement was purely story?
What if there is no advacement past skillup/levelup and everything is just dungeon crawling?
That would make a crappy MMO and prolly go belly-up in the first month.
actually theres already been some successful with those models
you have a very shallow definition of an MMO if you are not aware of them
war rock for example your level did not improve your defenses or hit points, it mearly unlocked a larger variety of tools and weapons
you had tons more things you could do, but you were always still vulnerable to those lower level than you
several of the kiddie mmo's are based around advancing the story and giving you new clothes, not making you more powerful
then theres the non combat mmo's, second life is a prime example of a successful mmo wihere advancement is purely economic and visual
than theres the slotted mmo's like guild wars where yes there is a power gap, but everyone can reach the level cap fairly quickly and advancement beyond that gives you tons more skills to choose from, but since you can only equip a preset number of them what you get is variety and not more power
and than there is planetside where the powergap between high and low was minimal and your progress through the game had an impact on your factions territories controlled, thus you actualloy contributed to the gameworld in significant ways rather than careing abouut some stupid level treadmill
i could go on, but like i said you are over looking games that already exist that have been successful with some of those limitations, he wasnt implying all of those limitations exist in one game at the same time
I completely agree with OP. This massive power gap is simply a pointless and harmful leftover from single player RPGs and which provides nothing really postive to the mmorpg experience.
A large number of problems mmos face are due to this obsolete and pointless mechanic. PvP unfairness and griefing being just one. Division of players in PvE being another. It is sad to see mmos struggle against this with all kinds of gimmicky and immersion-breaking mechanics, such as sidekicking, boosting etc while lacking the courage to simply remove the true cause for all these problems.
It is the holy cow of mmorpg design and imo it should finally be dispensed with.
please for the love of god do not put this crap into mmorpgs. Games are already screwed up enough and the last thing that needs to be added is free cake for everyone. there is no need to close the gap between people who play more..and people who play less. If anything people who play more should receive more while people who play less can still hang in there.
please for the love of god PAY ATTENTION to the debate
NO ONE is asking for free cake
people that play more should get more is exactly what was being suggested, simply not to such huge power extremes that they are beyond interacting with lower level players
your last line almost makes it sound like you agree with the OP "people who play less can still hang in there" well DUH thats what is being suggested: that lower level players at least be able to contribute
not that they "get more" simply that they are not completely irrelevent
While I agree, in a theme park it is necessary. Without it players could jump right into higher level areas.
Nope. You just introduce another, different and less problematic content-unlocking mechanism. For example you can still retain levels... just don't make them actually mean that much in raw character power terms. Or you can make it quest-unlockable. Or you can trade some kind of in-game currency to unlock new areas, dungeons etc.
All the functions of levels (meaning overpowered levels which create huge gaps between players) can be performed by some other game mechanic that does not screw up the whole social structure of the game like todays "standard" progression mechanics do.
I completely agree with OP. This massive power gap is simply a pointless and harmful leftover from single player RPGs and which provides nothing really postive to the mmorpg experience.
A large number of problems mmos face are due to this obsolete and pointless mechanic. PvP unfairness and griefing being just one. Division of players in PvE being another. It is sad to see mmos struggle against this with all kinds of gimmicky and immersion-breaking mechanics, such as sidekicking, boosting etc while lacking the courage to simply remove the true cause for all these problems.
It is the holy cow of mmorpg design and imo it should finally be dispensed with.
The level mechanic is the way in which the progression of the character is shown though. It is like starting a book: the main character is a fresh young noob and as he (or she) has adventures they gain experience and knowledge leading to their power increasing. Finally leading to that climactic battle with the dragon.
What some people seem to be advocating is logging in and waltzing straight into the fight with the dragon. I honestly don't understand that in the context of an MMORPG. They want to be that character at the end of the story with all the power straight away - without working for it.
How long will they play this game? A month, two months? And if they stuck with the game for a year only to be killed by a noob who created his character yesterday I am positive that they would not like it.
Sure the mechanic (be it levels, or skills, vertical or horizontal) is artificial and it is used for a reason. Saying MMOs need to be like real life where the most experienced and tough warrior can be killed by some skinny weakling who "got lucky" is idiotic. I guarantee that game would have about 7 subscribers, all of whom would be mentally deficient in a major way.
Besides a hell of a lot of people actually enjoy the whole levelling process - watching the avatar grow in power and reaching the heights of power that the experienced players have. As far as I am concerned that is what MMORPGs are based on.
Maybe someone mentioned this one in the many replies to this post.
SWG before they change it to a be more like WoW had a really good skills system. It still had a exp factor but you use that exp to pick skills that you were using the more you use it the more exp you got in that skill. When you got enough exp in that skill you got to pick a new ability in that skill line. What this means for new players that wanted to be with friends who played for months or even years before them is that they didn't have to level without their friend or on their own. All the long time player had to do was be willing to help out their friend with some credits to buy buffs from the local buff bot on the planet they were on and generally these buffs were more then enough to help them be together. Maybe a newer weapon would be helpful as well which your friend could help you get or after you do a few missions together the new player could get on his/her own.
SWG had a great lvling/skill system before the big change and if a game would go that route again they would more then likely have a winning game on their hands. So long as the game was fun and interesting to play.
I agree with many here that are against the power gap.. I've always voiced that was one of the dumbest mechanics in a player friendly mmo.. The devs might like it for obvious reasons, but from an unbiased view, it's just stupid.. Lets take WoW for example.. Newbie toon has about a couple hundred health, where as a level 80 veteran player has over 20,000 easy.. Does a top level player need to be 100 times stronger then a newbie.. Honestly? I just don't see the logic why there has to be such a huge power game.. OTHER then the devs promoting "gear and level" are everything.. Which in turn promotes the "chase the gear carrot" mentality.. Like I said, the devs love it because it benefits their agenda, but from a players unbiased point of view, it just shouldn't belong in the game.. ANY mmo game..
I DO want to be at least moderately comparable with a higher level character so that I can group with my friends and actually accomplish something useful. The buddy system doesn't work for this because you are never eligible for the quests that the higher level people are working on. It's just a "band-aid" solution.
[...]
Then you need a mechanic that lets you share equally the XP you get with that friend of yours, when you play while he doesn't and vice versa.
"Traditionally, massively multiplier online games have been about three basic gameplay pillars combat, exploration and character progression. In Alganon, in addition to these we've added the fourth pillar to the equation: Copy & Paste."
Would I play WoW if they removed levels 1-79 and let you start at 80? Sure. . But I see levels 1-79 as an EXTRA added value. . If WoW did remove levels 1-79 they would adjust all content so that level 80's would enjoy it. Well, there wouldn't be level 80's anymore since all levels would be removed. . As it is now, I like progressing my character. I level him up to 80, once I hit 80 I start acquiring new gear so that I can join raids and so on. . PvP is the same way, I start out wimpy but I grow stronger as I progress in equipment and levels. . To me, progression is the game, whether you're playing Eve or WoW. . The more progression, the better.
I'd also like to see the gap getting alot smaller. When I meet someone who also plays wow, in an other game or in real life, there always is the question what server. So if the server is not the same, I, as a player with two max leveled characters would have to create a new char just to be able to do stuff with my new friend.
There's not only twitch combat that makes individual skill possible for more experienced players to show how good they are. In a game like DotA, there's alot to learn. One game lasts about 40 minutes, but as a veteran player I got a huge advantage over someone who is new. It's not because of some pre-start bonus stats, because there is no such thing. I have an advantage, because I know what spells every hero has, when to use mine, about how strong heroes are compared to each other, what items and in what order I should get stuff. If you haven't played it, you should try it to see for yourself. If a newbie would own me, I would get surprised and tell myself to focus. If I keep getting owned, well then the player is just better than me, so what.
I completely agree with OP. This massive power gap is simply a pointless and harmful leftover from single player RPGs and which provides nothing really postive to the mmorpg experience.
A large number of problems mmos face are due to this obsolete and pointless mechanic. PvP unfairness and griefing being just one. Division of players in PvE being another. It is sad to see mmos struggle against this with all kinds of gimmicky and immersion-breaking mechanics, such as sidekicking, boosting etc while lacking the courage to simply remove the true cause for all these problems.
It is the holy cow of mmorpg design and imo it should finally be dispensed with.
The level mechanic is the way in which the progression of the character is shown though. It is like starting a book: the main character is a fresh young noob and as he (or she) has adventures they gain experience and knowledge leading to their power increasing. Finally leading to that climactic battle with the dragon.
What some people seem to be advocating is logging in and waltzing straight into the fight with the dragon. I honestly don't understand that in the context of an MMORPG. They want to be that character at the end of the story with all the power straight away - without working for it.
The page numbers in a book do not mean the character has gone from weakling to immortal, character progress does not have to be extreme and there are ways to track progress that do not require power gaps
You've completely glossed over the suggestions in this thread most of which imply placing a different mechanic in place to prevent your fear of "skipping ahead" while simultaneouslly keeping out the extreme nature of the current power gaps
You mearly make it so the player has to accomplish a series of other goals before being allowed to reach the dragon and sure they are more powerful than when they started but that doesnt mean an arrow through the heart wouldnt still kill them
Its not about starting at the end of the story its about keeping the gain in perspective to overall balance
A human who has learned to kill a dragon is still a human that should have to pay attention while he fights, he shouldnt be able to go AFK and allow some newb to hit him 1000 times with a sword and take no damage
Whats being advocated is balance in the gain of power, not complete removal of rewards or power ups
PLay Global Agenda. It doesn't take long to level and although there is a gap, it doesn't mean you can't compete.
It's gone free-to-play so that's another bonus.
On a side note,, DaoC would have sucked as far as achievements go, if the powergap wasn't there. It's what made things interesting and gave you something to strive for. The rewards in daoc were always based on player progression and closing that gap through work, (whether you considered tedious or not), through leveling, getting your gear for you template, realm points , and of course the dreaded toa artifacts and mls.
I'd also like to see the gap getting alot smaller. When I meet someone who also plays wow, in an other game or in real life, there always is the question what server. So if the server is not the same, I, as a player with two max leveled characters would have to create a new char just to be able to do stuff with my new friend.
[...]
I see the issue here is more in that outdated "server" mechanic and splitting of the player/characters according to them, than the level gap itself. See how Guild Wars does it for example (and i think Aion too?): 1 server, many channels. If someone plays the game, you can meet him, just by choosing the right channel which is something you change on the fly.
I never understood why one should stick to a specific piece of hardware when choosing to play a MMO. And then, some companies go that far into charging you when you want to stick to another piece of hardware... Clustering, and a lot similar technologies are out there for decades already.
"Traditionally, massively multiplier online games have been about three basic gameplay pillars combat, exploration and character progression. In Alganon, in addition to these we've added the fourth pillar to the equation: Copy & Paste."
This can be spun however you want, but it comes down to the fact that mmorpgs have been made easier and easier and now someone wants to log on to a game they have been playing for 5 minutes and have enough "power" to fight a level 80 player or a dragon or whatever.
All I hear anymore is how every aspect of these games needs to be removed because it's a "grind" or it's "forced" or it's not "fun." That's because all people think is fun anymore is getting what they want - now. And heaven forbid someone else do something or have something that they lack.
I remember when I played EQ there was a guild called Afterlife. I wasn't in it. They weren't even on my server. But I followed their exploits (and guilds like them) with great interest because they were doing things I knew I could never do. I wasn't jealous. It didn't bother me they were way past my ability level and any time commitment I could ever make. I was happy playing the game at my level, however modest it was. I didn't need to have it all. And I liked being part of a world where there were so many challenges that I could never accomplish them all.
But nowadays I guess people would begrudge them their success. They would see it as unfair that their characters are much more powerful. That's just sad. People have become so lazy and jealous and greedy that all they can see in these games is that some other guy has something, they want it, and instead of playing through and pursuing their goals they want to have it all handed to them.
You are so narrow-minded it's pathetic. You're totally missing the point of the OP because you're too arrogant and stubborn to take the time and really think about what he's saying (ironic). He's not saying he wants everything "NOW." Nobody is saying that. Nobody in this entire thread has been trying to make that point at all.
Look to the example of Magic the Gathering as an example. If you don't know how Magic works, here is a basic summary that illustrates the point of the OP: In MtG, you have a deck of cards (60 cards for tournament play). Someone with years of experience and cards to back it up can create a deck from their huge library of cards. Another player, maybe even someone with only a few weeks worth of experience with the game, can also create a deck but their options will be limited if they haven't obtained as many.
This doesn't mean he will, for sure, lose to the guy that has been playing for years because if he plans better and he plays smarter he can still defeat his opponent. He is at a disadvantage, but this disadvantage is not SO HUGE that he has no chance of winning at all. In the modern world of MMORPG's, a similar scenario (Lvl 60 vs Lvl 5 for example) means that the newer player will always lose because it takes virtually no effort for the veteran to win. Just automatically counter-attacking when being attacked will probably win the fight for the vet. This demonstrates the huge level of disparity between new characters and old ones.
If both MtG players are equally intelligent, the guy that has been playing for years does have a huge advantage because he has a ton of resources that are unavailable to the new player (so far). The OP, I can say without a doubt, would agree that this same scenario in an MMORPG would be acceptable. It also should work for you, because it means that progression still means something. It means a lot of something, just not everything.
Taking this back completely to the MMORPG world...
The difference is that hours played should not be such a huge determining factor on whether or not A) two players can play together in a party for rewards that are acceptable for both of them and two players can engage in PvP against eachother with an acceptable chance to win for both of them. It doesn't matter if the "maxed out" character performs better or has more options, all that matters is that the new character can contribute (PvE) and compete (PvP) to at least a small degree. The reason the OP is trying to make this point is because the way it is set up now, segregates players based on the time they've played and it's irritating to not be able to play with your friends until you "catch up" because it's not even worthwhile for them to focus on the content you're doing.
If you still don't understand the point that's trying to be made, then Dos Equis should make a commercial based on you called "THE LEAST EMPATHETIC MAN IN THE WORLD."
"I don't post on forums a lot...but when I do...I don't even try to understand the OP..."
Hahaha! Thanks for posting this, and the OP (me) definitely agrees with you. I think you articulated what I was trying to say better than I did.
It's frustrating because almost every argument FOR the power gap I have seen has just completely misconstrued my OP. As Kaydinv says, no one in this thread has advocated letting a new player be just as powerful as a high level player. We only want the MASSIVE and HARMFUL power gap between new and experienced players to be reduced so that everyone can play together both cooperatively and competitively.
If you want to argue against that, be my guest. But please do not act like we are advocating removing advancement altogether, or making a game "easy mode."
I'd also like to see the gap getting alot smaller. When I meet someone who also plays wow, in an other game or in real life, there always is the question what server. So if the server is not the same, I, as a player with two max leveled characters would have to create a new char just to be able to do stuff with my new friend.
[...]
I see the issue here is more in that outdated "server" mechanic and splitting of the player/characters according to them, than the level gap itself. See how Guild Wars does it for example (and i think Aion too?): 1 server, many channels. If someone plays the game, you can meet him, just by choosing the right channel which is something you change on the fly.
I never understood why one should stick to a specific piece of hardware when choosing to play a MMO. And then, some companies go that far into charging you when you want to stick to another piece of hardware... Clustering, and a lot similar technologies are out there for decades already.
As long as it is possible to have a persistent world, then I would be happy with them doing away with the multiple "worlds" design in favor of having everyone play in the same world. I like Guild Wars, but I prefer games that have a persistent world that the players can alter. I would just be concerned that trying to force all players into one world would either make it overcrowded, or laggy. But if they can do it, then great!
Comments
I am yet to be explained by someone about how can i play a game for two years straight, feel rewarded and feel like my character is making actual, meaningful progression and advancement yet be killed by someone who´s been playing for a week or two.
Rawr.
It makes sense depending on the world and storyline
Magic makes anything possible, I mean if you are going to sit and play logic police than please explain how a fireball is being pulled out of the air and thrown at someone?
The moment you accept magical ability in a game you also accept the ability for a human body to surpass another human body in magical ways that have no bearing on reality (and dont even get me started on how this applies to non humans)
By your logic "oh thats totally wierd" you shouldnt even have a dragon in the game at all as you make it sound like everything should be reality based
Magic allows everything to make sense in a fantasy setting
depends on what you call meaningful progress
in real life you can spend 2 years or 50 years building up your life, your career, your friendships, your knowledge, etc and still easily die to any random stranger of almost any age or experience level
progress in reality can be measured by any means you wish: number of fights won, number of cars owned, volume of bank account, length of career, pick one, invent one, it really doesnt matter how you decide to track progress in real life as while you can certainly make progress and achieve a variety of thihgs in the real world, you never achieve immortality or remove yourself from the risk of being killed by those younger or even weaker than you
now im not saying this would make a fun game, thats another debate, but you can certainly have meaningful progress of a character without making them immune to low level players
QFT!
All those memories will be lost in time, like tears in the rain.
If equipment tiers and/or large power increases are what make you feel rewarded then that is fine. We are not going to be able to present an arguent that changes your mind. Not everyone wants this type of gameplay and different games can be made to suit differences in preferences. However, compromises can be reached...
Scenario, characters are max level....
What if the advancment was only 5% difference or less in character ability?
What if the advancement was only 5% difference or less in character ability and that difference did not hinder anyone from experiencing content?
What if advancement was purely cosmetic. This could be character appearance, vanity pets, skill appearance changes, etc. Anything cosmetic.
What if advacement was purely story?
What if there is no advacement past skillup/levelup and everything is just dungeon crawling?
Forever looking for employment. Life is rather dull without it.
Asking for permadeath is just macho BS, you dont have the balls to actually go through with it
The simple truth is EVERY GAME has the option for permadeath, its called the delete button
I dare you to delete your characters every time you die
Please come back and tell us how much fun you had restarting your characters after every death
There is a reason no real MMO game forces permadeath on players: ITS NOT FUN beyond the first few times which means it would kill any subscription based game
Permadeath only works in games where it is purely an option (like diablo2 after you've mastered the game and have nothing better to do but brag). Not even the buik of single player games enforce permadeath (most games that are not "arcade" games have save points where you can at least restart a few times, or more often infiinitely)
Every macho moron on the planet likes to show off and ask for permadeath, but none of you actually delete your characters even tho the option for permadeath already exists
That would make a crappy MMO and prolly go belly-up in the first month.
All those memories will be lost in time, like tears in the rain.
Which scenario?
And if I have to actually name successful MMOs past and present that had a near zero character power gain post level/skill up...
Forever looking for employment. Life is rather dull without it.
No, real life does not support the power gap theory: real life I don't care how hard you train, any idiot can still kill you in one shot if you arent paying attention
In power gap games a newb can swing a sword at you for hours and you wouldnt even know they exist
In real life your years of training may improve your odds, but they do not guarantee immortality or instant win on your bad days
in power gap you dont even have to pay attention to the game, or even be at your keyboard and you would still win vs someone lower level than you
In your real life example can the longbow archer that trained for years win while he is asleep? no?
in a power gap game, if you are far enough level above the other you quite frankly can be asleep and the newb still cant touch you
These threads are funny. The arguments on either side really haven't changed in 15 years. They probably haven't changed since the beginnig.
Forever looking for employment. Life is rather dull without it.
actually theres already been some successful with those models
you have a very shallow definition of an MMO if you are not aware of them
war rock for example your level did not improve your defenses or hit points, it mearly unlocked a larger variety of tools and weapons
you had tons more things you could do, but you were always still vulnerable to those lower level than you
several of the kiddie mmo's are based around advancing the story and giving you new clothes, not making you more powerful
then theres the non combat mmo's, second life is a prime example of a successful mmo wihere advancement is purely economic and visual
than theres the slotted mmo's like guild wars where yes there is a power gap, but everyone can reach the level cap fairly quickly and advancement beyond that gives you tons more skills to choose from, but since you can only equip a preset number of them what you get is variety and not more power
and than there is planetside where the powergap between high and low was minimal and your progress through the game had an impact on your factions territories controlled, thus you actualloy contributed to the gameworld in significant ways rather than careing abouut some stupid level treadmill
i could go on, but like i said you are over looking games that already exist that have been successful with some of those limitations, he wasnt implying all of those limitations exist in one game at the same time
I completely agree with OP. This massive power gap is simply a pointless and harmful leftover from single player RPGs and which provides nothing really postive to the mmorpg experience.
A large number of problems mmos face are due to this obsolete and pointless mechanic. PvP unfairness and griefing being just one. Division of players in PvE being another. It is sad to see mmos struggle against this with all kinds of gimmicky and immersion-breaking mechanics, such as sidekicking, boosting etc while lacking the courage to simply remove the true cause for all these problems.
It is the holy cow of mmorpg design and imo it should finally be dispensed with.
please for the love of god PAY ATTENTION to the debate
NO ONE is asking for free cake
people that play more should get more is exactly what was being suggested, simply not to such huge power extremes that they are beyond interacting with lower level players
your last line almost makes it sound like you agree with the OP "people who play less can still hang in there" well DUH thats what is being suggested: that lower level players at least be able to contribute
not that they "get more" simply that they are not completely irrelevent
Nope. You just introduce another, different and less problematic content-unlocking mechanism. For example you can still retain levels... just don't make them actually mean that much in raw character power terms. Or you can make it quest-unlockable. Or you can trade some kind of in-game currency to unlock new areas, dungeons etc.
All the functions of levels (meaning overpowered levels which create huge gaps between players) can be performed by some other game mechanic that does not screw up the whole social structure of the game like todays "standard" progression mechanics do.
The level mechanic is the way in which the progression of the character is shown though. It is like starting a book: the main character is a fresh young noob and as he (or she) has adventures they gain experience and knowledge leading to their power increasing. Finally leading to that climactic battle with the dragon.
What some people seem to be advocating is logging in and waltzing straight into the fight with the dragon. I honestly don't understand that in the context of an MMORPG. They want to be that character at the end of the story with all the power straight away - without working for it.
How long will they play this game? A month, two months? And if they stuck with the game for a year only to be killed by a noob who created his character yesterday I am positive that they would not like it.
Sure the mechanic (be it levels, or skills, vertical or horizontal) is artificial and it is used for a reason. Saying MMOs need to be like real life where the most experienced and tough warrior can be killed by some skinny weakling who "got lucky" is idiotic. I guarantee that game would have about 7 subscribers, all of whom would be mentally deficient in a major way.
Besides a hell of a lot of people actually enjoy the whole levelling process - watching the avatar grow in power and reaching the heights of power that the experienced players have. As far as I am concerned that is what MMORPGs are based on.
Maybe someone mentioned this one in the many replies to this post.
SWG before they change it to a be more like WoW had a really good skills system. It still had a exp factor but you use that exp to pick skills that you were using the more you use it the more exp you got in that skill. When you got enough exp in that skill you got to pick a new ability in that skill line. What this means for new players that wanted to be with friends who played for months or even years before them is that they didn't have to level without their friend or on their own. All the long time player had to do was be willing to help out their friend with some credits to buy buffs from the local buff bot on the planet they were on and generally these buffs were more then enough to help them be together. Maybe a newer weapon would be helpful as well which your friend could help you get or after you do a few missions together the new player could get on his/her own.
SWG had a great lvling/skill system before the big change and if a game would go that route again they would more then likely have a winning game on their hands. So long as the game was fun and interesting to play.
I agree with many here that are against the power gap.. I've always voiced that was one of the dumbest mechanics in a player friendly mmo.. The devs might like it for obvious reasons, but from an unbiased view, it's just stupid.. Lets take WoW for example.. Newbie toon has about a couple hundred health, where as a level 80 veteran player has over 20,000 easy.. Does a top level player need to be 100 times stronger then a newbie.. Honestly? I just don't see the logic why there has to be such a huge power game.. OTHER then the devs promoting "gear and level" are everything.. Which in turn promotes the "chase the gear carrot" mentality.. Like I said, the devs love it because it benefits their agenda, but from a players unbiased point of view, it just shouldn't belong in the game.. ANY mmo game..
Then you need a mechanic that lets you share equally the XP you get with that friend of yours, when you play while he doesn't and vice versa.
"Traditionally, massively multiplier online games have been about three basic gameplay pillars combat, exploration and character progression. In Alganon, in addition to these we've added the fourth pillar to the equation: Copy & Paste."
Would I play WoW if they removed levels 1-79 and let you start at 80? Sure.
.
But I see levels 1-79 as an EXTRA added value.
.
If WoW did remove levels 1-79 they would adjust all content so that level 80's would enjoy it. Well, there wouldn't be level 80's anymore since all levels would be removed.
.
As it is now, I like progressing my character. I level him up to 80, once I hit 80 I start acquiring new gear so that I can join raids and so on.
.
PvP is the same way, I start out wimpy but I grow stronger as I progress in equipment and levels.
.
To me, progression is the game, whether you're playing Eve or WoW.
.
The more progression, the better.
Well shave my back and call me an elf! -- Oghren
I'd also like to see the gap getting alot smaller. When I meet someone who also plays wow, in an other game or in real life, there always is the question what server. So if the server is not the same, I, as a player with two max leveled characters would have to create a new char just to be able to do stuff with my new friend.
There's not only twitch combat that makes individual skill possible for more experienced players to show how good they are. In a game like DotA, there's alot to learn. One game lasts about 40 minutes, but as a veteran player I got a huge advantage over someone who is new. It's not because of some pre-start bonus stats, because there is no such thing. I have an advantage, because I know what spells every hero has, when to use mine, about how strong heroes are compared to each other, what items and in what order I should get stuff. If you haven't played it, you should try it to see for yourself. If a newbie would own me, I would get surprised and tell myself to focus. If I keep getting owned, well then the player is just better than me, so what.
The page numbers in a book do not mean the character has gone from weakling to immortal, character progress does not have to be extreme and there are ways to track progress that do not require power gaps
You've completely glossed over the suggestions in this thread most of which imply placing a different mechanic in place to prevent your fear of "skipping ahead" while simultaneouslly keeping out the extreme nature of the current power gaps
You mearly make it so the player has to accomplish a series of other goals before being allowed to reach the dragon and sure they are more powerful than when they started but that doesnt mean an arrow through the heart wouldnt still kill them
Its not about starting at the end of the story its about keeping the gain in perspective to overall balance
A human who has learned to kill a dragon is still a human that should have to pay attention while he fights, he shouldnt be able to go AFK and allow some newb to hit him 1000 times with a sword and take no damage
Whats being advocated is balance in the gain of power, not complete removal of rewards or power ups
PLay Global Agenda. It doesn't take long to level and although there is a gap, it doesn't mean you can't compete.
It's gone free-to-play so that's another bonus.
On a side note,, DaoC would have sucked as far as achievements go, if the powergap wasn't there. It's what made things interesting and gave you something to strive for. The rewards in daoc were always based on player progression and closing that gap through work, (whether you considered tedious or not), through leveling, getting your gear for you template, realm points , and of course the dreaded toa artifacts and mls.
I see the issue here is more in that outdated "server" mechanic and splitting of the player/characters according to them, than the level gap itself. See how Guild Wars does it for example (and i think Aion too?): 1 server, many channels. If someone plays the game, you can meet him, just by choosing the right channel which is something you change on the fly.
I never understood why one should stick to a specific piece of hardware when choosing to play a MMO. And then, some companies go that far into charging you when you want to stick to another piece of hardware... Clustering, and a lot similar technologies are out there for decades already.
"Traditionally, massively multiplier online games have been about three basic gameplay pillars combat, exploration and character progression. In Alganon, in addition to these we've added the fourth pillar to the equation: Copy & Paste."
Hahaha! Thanks for posting this, and the OP (me) definitely agrees with you. I think you articulated what I was trying to say better than I did.
It's frustrating because almost every argument FOR the power gap I have seen has just completely misconstrued my OP. As Kaydinv says, no one in this thread has advocated letting a new player be just as powerful as a high level player. We only want the MASSIVE and HARMFUL power gap between new and experienced players to be reduced so that everyone can play together both cooperatively and competitively.
If you want to argue against that, be my guest. But please do not act like we are advocating removing advancement altogether, or making a game "easy mode."
Are you team Azeroth, team Tyria, or team Jacob?
As long as it is possible to have a persistent world, then I would be happy with them doing away with the multiple "worlds" design in favor of having everyone play in the same world. I like Guild Wars, but I prefer games that have a persistent world that the players can alter. I would just be concerned that trying to force all players into one world would either make it overcrowded, or laggy. But if they can do it, then great!
Are you team Azeroth, team Tyria, or team Jacob?