Why do dungeons have trash mobs?

jezvin

Why do alot of dungeons and raids have trash mobs?

I like doing big epic fights and battles and stuff but it seems alot of raids in MMOs are all about clearing all this trash crap to get to actual fights to have some fun.

Where is the MMO that is just going to let you do epic fights when you want to do a fight instead of clear though hours of shit to get there.

less time wasting more fun please.

Edit:

O and on the subject get rid of all the agressive mobs that prevent people from just running around in a zone if they feel like it instead of having to wade though a bunch of molasses to get to the other side.

laokoko

developers are lazy. 

If they don't add trash mobs, they need to creat more epic fight boss which take more of their developing times.

sulthar

yeah right... dev are lazy... nice trolling

skeaser

So...you want a game where:

Mobs ignore you, no matter what and there's no real danger and bosses just sit and wait for people to stab 'em?

Not dogging you man, but I doubt many people share your feelings.

FreddyNoNose

Originally posted by jezvin

Why do alot of dungeons and raids have trash mobs?

I like doing big epic fights and battles and stuff but it seems alot of raids in MMOs are all about clearing all this trash crap to get to actual fights to have some fun.

Where is the MMO that is just going to let you do epic fights when you want to do a fight instead of clear though hours of shit to get there.

less time wasting more fun please.

Edit:

O and on the subject get rid of all the agressive mobs that prevent people from just running around in a zone if they feel like it instead of having to wade though a bunch of molasses to get to the other side.

 It goes back to having some semblance of the look and feel of dugeons from the dnd days of the 70s.

See if you took and made it just boss fights, you basically have a lobby type game where bam you just go into a room, kill a boss and get the loot.

TehJackal

Yeah the trash can also be used to lead you up to what could be coming in the boss fight... and i mean nothing is free... not even in the online world. Once trash mobs are figured out you can blow through them pretty quick anyway XD

jezvin

of course not everything has to be passive, but everything dosn't have to be agressive.

and bosses sitting and waiting? wth you think they doing behind the trash mobs.

but no it would be cool to pop them, could even do Cut scene as you pop them and crap.

Beermangler

To briefly answer OP's question (title).

 

So we can repair our equipment with the thrash loot we sell

skeaser

Originally posted by jezvin

of course not everything has to be passive, but everything dosn't have to be agressive.

and bosses sitting and waiting? wth you think they doing behind the trash mobs.

but no it would be cool to pop them, could even do Cut scene as you pop them and crap.

Yeah, I hate games that after level X everything aggros. I mean come one, why is a there a level 75 brown bunny nipping at my heals?!

I'm also not a fan of games where grey mobs aggro and can dismount, especially semi-intelligent mobs. I doubt that the scrub level 3 farmer with a pitchfork would really charge the guy in full plate, wearing a dragon skull as a helmet with a glowing firey blade as he rode by...

jezvin

Here let me rage a bit about trash mobs RAAAWWWRRRR

ok now let me rage on the people saying that trash mobs arn't that bad once you figure it out you don't waste too much time with them RAAAAAWRRR!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

ok really, is it fun killing retarded crap just to get to the boss fight?

not really everyone is just used to it.

Lets all just jump on the it has to be this way train even though we all hate it deep down inside.

Miner-2049er

The concept of boss fights has existed in computer games for ages, right back to the old coin-up shoot em ups. I would think most people prefer the build up that leads to the final fight.

It also makes sense from a role playing perspective (mmoRPG) that the dungeons boss doesn't stand by the entrance with all the loot just waiting to be killed.

I believe the solution, if required, is NOT to remove the 'trash mobs' but instead to make the fights with them more meaningful. I reckon that reaching the final bosses with the prime loot should be a challenge in itself.

jezvin

Well there could be stuff like trash mobs that drop items to start the boos fight but it isn't in the same like instance thing.

 

So you could take like 1 or 2 people and farm an item to spawn the boss but then get the whole group together and go kill it

 

Basically I don't want to spend hours clearing worthless shit just to get to where I want to have fun.

 

Getting 3 or 4 people to go kill some mobs to farm an item to spawn a boss is a completely different and more enjoyable experience than wiping out the vacuum to make sure the dragon's lair is clear of mutated vacuumable rats before you go slaughter his butt.

Neoptolemus

I agree that trash mobs in most MMOs are just timesinks, speedbumps in the road so that an instance takes 30 minutes to complete rather than 5. You just round them up, smack them down and repeat until you reach the boss.

 

I don't think it has to be that way though. Getting to the boss should be part of the fun and the experience, and the trash mobs should require the same imagination and skill as the boss itself. One way of doing this could be with random encounters, random mixes of enemy types which can appear in different areas at different times. Give them group tactics, not just all ganging up on the tank waiting to be knocked down. Sometimes when doing an instance in WoW I feel like I could set up macros to run the instance for me given that most trash requires little more than tank/spank and always appear in the same place.

jezvin

I like what you saying about getting to the boss should be part of the fun.

But I don't think that it has to be a dungeon that leads up to it. Or that it has to take place all in the same time frame.

So say there was a boss behind some big random door  but to unlock it you need to kill these lesser bosses so maybe you kill a few one night and then some again at a later time eventually working your way up.

I would want a progression that feels like progression. killing 200 zombie farmers to get to the evil lich is just a numbers game. It's killing a zombie farmer, then repeating it 200 times.

It's like saying take retarded and compound it 200 times and you get epic! no you get alot more retarded.

clankyasp

Why do dungeons have Boss? or we could just go in and loot a chest full of epics without any effort at all.

jezvin

Originally posted by clankyasp

Why do dungeons have Boss? or we could just go in and loot a chest full of epics without any effort at all.

Why do bosses have dungeon?

Coder

Originally posted by jezvin

I like what you saying about getting to the boss should be part of the fun.

But I don't think that it has to be a dungeon that leads up to it. Or that it has to take place all in the same time frame.

So say there was a boss behind some big random door  but to unlock it you need to kill these lesser bosses so maybe you kill a few one night and then some again at a later time eventually working your way up.

I would want a progression that feels like progression. killing 200 zombie farmers to get to the evil lich is just a numbers game. It's killing a zombie farmer, then repeating it 200 times.

It's like saying take retarded and compound it 200 times and you get epic! no you get alot more retarded.

Those 'lesser' bosses will become your trash mobs after a while. I raided for a long time in EQ2 where there was raid instances made up like that. You'd have to kill some trash to get to the first boss, then some trash, then another boss... after a couple of runs you knew the first bosses so well that they were just like trash, time sinks to get  to the boss you wanted loot from. The loot from the first bosses was so abundant that we just let it rot so we didn't have to waste time giving it out.

You could do like you describe, kill the first bosses with less then optimal players to clear the way and speed up the process. It still was un-fun since you'd have to kill the first bosses so many times to get where you wanted to be.

It would usually go like this, 4-6 people would take the time to kill the first trash + bosses until the boss that required a full raid, not because it was hard but because you needed the number of players to kill it, clicking things, jumping thru hoops and what not. Then just 'zombie' on with the rest of the trash + bosses until we reached the end boss, which was alittle more fun the first couple of times. After killing the end boss a couple of times, he too became just a trash mob (with added aoes and hoops to jump thru), usually he'd never drop the items we needed due to random loot, so restart the process of clearing the whole zone again, and again, and again and again...

So, epic boss farmer.

jezvin

See you took what im saying and looked at it though the eyes of a single dungeon. I did not say "what if you made a bunch of harder trash in frount of the boss to get to the end of the dungeon." because thats retarded.

The problem is I don't want to have to clean mr evil monsters hideout everytime I pay him a vist.

I do not like that if I want to kill a certain boss that it means I have to all at once clear a bunch of worthless crap just to get there.

I mean hell they have lock out timers in every game these days to prevent people from doing things way to much, why is it that these old time syncs still exists when they are clearly not needed and not fun.

 

kilun

Age of Conan has a lot of None trash encounters in raids and instances just the boss to worry about.  To me, I rather enjoy that aspect generally.  When there is trash, it just allows the group to clear while waiting on a player or few depending on the encounter.

But excessive trash such as what I dealth with in Everquest 2 was blatantly boring.  It felt like a huge timesink, though it maybe different now(last raiding when KoS was out)

Coder

Originally posted by jezvin

See you took what im saying and looked at it though the eyes of a single dungeon. I did not say "what if you made a bunch of harder trash in frount of the boss to get to the end of the dungeon." because thats retarded.

The problem is I don't want to have to clean mr evil monsters hideout everytime I pay him a vist.

I do not like that if I want to kill a certain boss that it means I have to all at once clear a bunch of worthless crap just to get there.

I mean hell they have lock out timers in every game these days to prevent people from doing things way to much, why is it that these old time syncs still exists when they are clearly not needed and not fun.

 

So what you are saying is that you want what EQ2 had with their contested/avatars?

This worked like this; you had a mob spawn on a timer in the open world, no instance, first raid to come and kill it got the loot. A side effect of this was that the raid that killed it also knew about when it would spawn again and therefore prepared and waited for it to spawn and killed it again. This lead to the same guild/raid would be the only ones getting loot from that mob, unless they descided to sell it to the public.

It was possible to get the timer for the constested mob, but you would have a second raid standing by waiting for any misstake and if that happened they would clear the mob since they had done it x amount of times before and knew the encounter in their sleep. Any other raid force would be lucky to even get a try to learn it.

Or is it that you want one boss in his own instance, no trash mobs or other things, just the boss himself... what boss doesn't have minions and a boss without minions would he still be a boss? Sounds more like a free loot button to me.

I'm not saying it's not annoying to clear all the minions again and again, but unless someone comes up with a better idea that is feasable it's the best there is even if it's not very good mechanic. I think that's the reason the bosses have their trash mobs, noone has came up with a better solution.

But lets say that we have the lone boss in his own room, this would bore players to death pretty fast as the wait to go and kill it would be far longer then it would take to kill him. Most encounters are quite short, a few minutes at most. So you would wait, lets say 3 days, before you could go and kill the boss after a kill. Killing the boss takes 5 minutes actual fight time, what would you do the other 3 days? Kill other bosses for 5*X minutes?

EQ2 did this too. Veshaans Peak after some time... Once you had cleared the place you could take a portal to the last boss and kill him. It got old very fast since it took about 15-20 minutes, including travel time and once everyone and their alts had what they wanted noone killed it again.

As for why the timers exists is cause you pay per month, thus the company making the game wants you to pay as much as possible. Allowing you to kit up a full raid force in a week is detrimental to their business since after everyone is geared up there is no incentive for their customer (you) to keep playing, is there?

Vesavius

Originally posted by jezvin

Why do alot of dungeons and raids have trash mobs?

 

 

It's a time sink.

Thats it really.

jezvin

Originally posted by Coder

Originally posted by jezvin

See you took what im saying and looked at it though the eyes of a single dungeon. I did not say "what if you made a bunch of harder trash in frount of the boss to get to the end of the dungeon." because thats retarded.

The problem is I don't want to have to clean mr evil monsters hideout everytime I pay him a vist.

I do not like that if I want to kill a certain boss that it means I have to all at once clear a bunch of worthless crap just to get there.

I mean hell they have lock out timers in every game these days to prevent people from doing things way to much, why is it that these old time syncs still exists when they are clearly not needed and not fun.

 

So what you are saying is that you want what EQ2 had with their contested/avatars?

This worked like this; you had a mob spawn on a timer in the open world, no instance, first raid to come and kill it got the loot. A side effect of this was that the raid that killed it also knew about when it would spawn again and therefore prepared and waited for it to spawn and killed it again. This lead to the same guild/raid would be the only ones getting loot from that mob, unless they descided to sell it to the public.

It was possible to get the timer for the constested mob, but you would have a second raid standing by waiting for any misstake and if that happened they would clear the mob since they had done it x amount of times before and knew the encounter in their sleep. Any other raid force would be lucky to even get a try to learn it.

Or is it that you want one boss in his own instance, no trash mobs or other things, just the boss himself... what boss doesn't have minions and a boss without minions would he still be a boss? Sounds more like a free loot button to me.

I'm not saying it's not annoying to clear all the minions again and again, but unless someone comes up with a better idea that is feasable it's the best there is even if it's not very good mechanic. I think that's the reason the bosses have their trash mobs, noone has came up with a better solution.

But lets say that we have the lone boss in his own room, this would bore players to death pretty fast as the wait to go and kill it would be far longer then it would take to kill him. Most encounters are quite short, a few minutes at most. So you would wait, lets say 3 days, before you could go and kill the boss after a kill. Killing the boss takes 5 minutes actual fight time, what would you do the other 3 days? Kill other bosses for 5*X minutes?

EQ2 did this too. Veshaans Peak after some time... Once you had cleared the place you could take a portal to the last boss and kill him. It got old very fast since it took about 15-20 minutes, including travel time and once everyone and their alts had what they wanted noone killed it again.

As for why the timers exists is cause you pay per month, thus the company making the game wants you to pay as much as possible. Allowing you to kit up a full raid force in a week is detrimental to their business since after everyone is geared up there is no incentive for their customer (you) to keep playing, is there?

So what your saying is you only played EQ 2.

Cool, look at other games that have a majority of end game content dealing only with boss fights such as FFXI, it does have some raid stuff that is bassicly killing trash mobs.  but so does every game.

honestly I wish more western MMOs took the good systems from FFXI instead of keeping with retarded crap that they have.

Also just because boss fights in EQ2 last 2 mins dosn't mean they have to last 2 mins.

Here take your ride on the same train back to stalesvil where only what EQ2 does is what can be done in MMOs.

Sanguinelust

You know how boring just boss fights would be? You have to have the trash mobs just to add something to make it a little interesting. And that's not to say fighting trash is interesting or really all that much fun but what i like about it is the chance for those mobs to drop better equipment.

grunt187

So bosses dont get lonely.

Sovrath

Originally posted by jezvin

Why do alot of dungeons and raids have trash mobs?

I like doing big epic fights and battles and stuff but it seems alot of raids in MMOs are all about clearing all this trash crap to get to actual fights to have some fun.

Where is the MMO that is just going to let you do epic fights when you want to do a fight instead of clear though hours of shit to get there.

less time wasting more fun please.

Edit:

O and on the subject get rid of all the agressive mobs that prevent people from just running around in a zone if they feel like it instead of having to wade though a bunch of molasses to get to the other side.

Because it wouldn't make any sense.

what higher being wouldn't have guards, a small army, what have you, guarding and defending?

And why would any be passive? Just doesn't make sense to include mobs that just sit around and watch the invading force come in.

 

Coder

Originally posted by jezvin

Originally posted by Coder

Originally posted by jezvin

See you took what im saying and looked at it though the eyes of a single dungeon. I did not say "what if you made a bunch of harder trash in frount of the boss to get to the end of the dungeon." because thats retarded.

The problem is I don't want to have to clean mr evil monsters hideout everytime I pay him a vist.

I do not like that if I want to kill a certain boss that it means I have to all at once clear a bunch of worthless crap just to get there.

I mean hell they have lock out timers in every game these days to prevent people from doing things way to much, why is it that these old time syncs still exists when they are clearly not needed and not fun.

 

So what you are saying is that you want what EQ2 had with their contested/avatars?

This worked like this; you had a mob spawn on a timer in the open world, no instance, first raid to come and kill it got the loot. A side effect of this was that the raid that killed it also knew about when it would spawn again and therefore prepared and waited for it to spawn and killed it again. This lead to the same guild/raid would be the only ones getting loot from that mob, unless they descided to sell it to the public.

It was possible to get the timer for the constested mob, but you would have a second raid standing by waiting for any misstake and if that happened they would clear the mob since they had done it x amount of times before and knew the encounter in their sleep. Any other raid force would be lucky to even get a try to learn it.

Or is it that you want one boss in his own instance, no trash mobs or other things, just the boss himself... what boss doesn't have minions and a boss without minions would he still be a boss? Sounds more like a free loot button to me.

I'm not saying it's not annoying to clear all the minions again and again, but unless someone comes up with a better idea that is feasable it's the best there is even if it's not very good mechanic. I think that's the reason the bosses have their trash mobs, noone has came up with a better solution.

But lets say that we have the lone boss in his own room, this would bore players to death pretty fast as the wait to go and kill it would be far longer then it would take to kill him. Most encounters are quite short, a few minutes at most. So you would wait, lets say 3 days, before you could go and kill the boss after a kill. Killing the boss takes 5 minutes actual fight time, what would you do the other 3 days? Kill other bosses for 5*X minutes?

EQ2 did this too. Veshaans Peak after some time... Once you had cleared the place you could take a portal to the last boss and kill him. It got old very fast since it took about 15-20 minutes, including travel time and once everyone and their alts had what they wanted noone killed it again.

As for why the timers exists is cause you pay per month, thus the company making the game wants you to pay as much as possible. Allowing you to kit up a full raid force in a week is detrimental to their business since after everyone is geared up there is no incentive for their customer (you) to keep playing, is there?

So what your saying is you only played EQ 2.

Cool, look at other games that have a majority of end game content dealing only with boss fights such as FFXI, it does have some raid stuff that is bassicly killing trash mobs.  but so does every game.

honestly I wish more western MMOs took the good systems from FFXI instead of keeping with retarded crap that they have.

Also just because boss fights in EQ2 last 2 mins dosn't mean they have to last 2 mins.

Here take your ride on the same train back to stalesvil where only what EQ2 does is what can be done in MMOs.

No, what I'm saying is that the examples I'm giving have been tried in EQ2. You obviously havn't played EQ2 if you think all fights only last a few minutes... there are some that last alot longer there.

Oh, I also played Swg, Vanguard, CoH, CoV, APB, EvE, Aion, GW, AC2, CO, STO, wow, War and a few more. From your comments it looks like you only played item progressive theme park MMOs.