This has nothing to do with wanting gear faster I think it would be more fun to spend 4 hours on an epic boss fight then 2 hours clearing a dungeon and then killing a boss in 15 mins.
OMG, I would never attempt a raid against a 4 hour boss. Seriously, you'd want that? It would get the name of "the boss that never dies" if it had any difficulty to it whatsoever, other than the time it took to kill.
Tank has to go to the bathroom, group wipes.
Healer sneezes, group wipes.
Someone at the door, group wipes.
etc etc. a 4 hour long fight that is difficult the whole way through is asking to never kill the boss. SOMEONE is going to screw up, unless you're playing with all bots.
No I don't do dungeons where there is a lot of trash mobs I pretty much just quit the game once I get to the boring end game crap like that.
I played FFXI end game and basically dynamis is the only event that you can consider having trash mobs everything else is about channeling your group against a fight.
I played WoW, EQ2, WAR, DAOC, to end game PvE content and I couldn't stand it. you spend hours clearing this area to get a few mins on a worthless boss it's a long build up to nothing.
WoW had lots of World bosses in classic. Don't know if you played back then, but the general consesus was that they were boring. Also, fighting over respawns and the like is just silly. That would be worse than 'trash mobs' any day of the week. If you're talking about an instance for 1 boss, then that's just silly.
And I look at so many games and they all seem to be planning to just repeat the process I hate.
To the people citing you need them for lore, well some lore makes sense and some doesn’t. Usually a human like boss will have a lot of henchmen, but monsters like a dragon. It's a dragon it doesn’t need crap for henchmen they kill armies while sleeping.
You honestly think it's a foreign concept to have whelps and dragonkin near and around a dragon's lair? It seems like you're trying to achieve some boring level of realism tbh. It's a video game, don't be such a tight a**.
This has nothing to do with wanting gear faster I think it would be more fun to spend 4 hours on an epic boss fight then 2 hours clearing a dungeon and then killing a boss in 15 mins.
Hey everyone has their own tastes. I think you're part of a VERY small demographic though. I dare say you're going to be very disappointed for years to come. The closest thing to this I did was Requiem where the boss fights were ridiculously long. I would literally fall asleep at the keyboard.
I just like the epic dragon fights not undead swordsman #249.
If every fight was an epic dragon fight, wouldn't it lose it's "epic" feel and then just become another dragon fight #2554? In order to keep the feel of the fight "epic", without turning combat into some long tedius hassle, would be to make combat less frequent. This game sounds innovative and super awesome.....
David didn't need to clean goliath's lair.
David wasn't playing a video game.
So please take your insights to what I am "Thinking" and start to think maybe the genre is stale because every major game basically does the same crap over and over again. Once you played one you have played all of them.
I never said the industry wsan't stale and boring. I just strongly disagree that the concept of "trash mobs" is even remotely responsible. If anything, the lack of 'trash mobs' (dungeons) is one of the main reasons why games don't do well. Look at Aion and CoH. CoH would be the best game in my opinion (LOTS n LOTS of trash mobs too lol) if it had an endgame with tiered raids/dungeons.
No I don't do dungeons where there is a lot of trash mobs I pretty much just quit the game once I get to the boring end game crap like that.
I played FFXI end game and basically dynamis is the only event that you can consider having trash mobs everything else is about channeling your group against a fight.
I played WoW, EQ2, WAR, DAOC, to end game PvE content and I couldn't stand it. you spend hours clearing this area to get a few mins on a worthless boss it's a long build up to nothing.
WoW had lots of World bosses in classic. Don't know if you played back then, but the general consesus was that they were boring. Also, fighting over respawns and the like is just silly. That would be worse than 'trash mobs' any day of the week. If you're talking about an instance for 1 boss, then that's just silly.
And I look at so many games and they all seem to be planning to just repeat the process I hate.
To the people citing you need them for lore, well some lore makes sense and some doesn’t. Usually a human like boss will have a lot of henchmen, but monsters like a dragon. It's a dragon it doesn’t need crap for henchmen they kill armies while sleeping.
You honestly think it's a foreign concept to have whelps and dragonkin near and around a dragon's lair? It seems like you're trying to achieve some boring level of realism tbh. It's a video game, don't be such a tight a**.
This has nothing to do with wanting gear faster I think it would be more fun to spend 4 hours on an epic boss fight then 2 hours clearing a dungeon and then killing a boss in 15 mins.
Hey everyone has their own tastes. I think you're part of a VERY small demographic though. I dare say you're going to be very disappointed for years to come. The closest thing to this I did was Requiem where the boss fights were ridiculously long. I would literally fall asleep at the keyboard.
I just like the epic dragon fights not undead swordsman #249.
If every fight was an epic dragon fight, wouldn't it lose it's "epic" feel and then just become another dragon fight #2554? In order to keep the feel of the fight "epic", without turning combat into some long tedius hassle, would be to make combat less frequent. This game sounds innovative and super awesome.....
David didn't need to clean goliath's lair.
David wasn't playing a video game.
So please take your insights to what I am "Thinking" and start to think maybe the genre is stale because every major game basically does the same crap over and over again. Once you played one you have played all of them.
I never said the industry wsan't stale and boring. I just strongly disagree that the concept of "trash mobs" is even remotely responsible. If anything, the lack of 'trash mobs' (dungeons) is one of the main reasons why games don't do well. Look at Aion and CoH. CoH would be the best game in my opinion (LOTS n LOTS of trash mobs too lol) if it had an endgame with tiered raids/dungeons.
It seems you’re arguing that poor implementations of similar systems are bad, yes they are. World spawns are terrible that’s why you use a pop system that can have crafter/quests used to start it. And there can be many other ways.
I'm not saying having any sort of lesser mobs is a terrible idea but I HATE that it's used excessively to the point of terrible not to mention it's the ONLY system being used for end game content in a majority of games.
Bringing in that lore/David stuff was just a response to people who kept saying it wouldn't make sense with rl/lore comments. It's fantasy anything makes sense if you want it to....
A fight getting less epic because you did it 100 times also effects anything, repetition is boring thanks for the insight.
And because repetition is boring killing trash mobs gets boring about 100x faster than a single fight because you have to do tons of it in one dungeon.
------------------------------------------------- Achiever 20.00%, Explorer 86.67%, Killer 60.00%, Socializer 33.33%
So you enjoy trash mobs being in places for no other purpose than just to be there? I've played a gambit of mmos and I've come accross very few dungeons in all of them that I can recall that had mobs that were there for a logical purpose. Every single dungeon in WoW (just as an example since most people have played it) there are scores of mobs just sitting or standing there. Why? Why do they just sit there. And another thing that bugs me, if you saw your buddies being attacked wouldn't you help them? You would think that anything within sight or sound of action that those mobs in the vicinity would investigate. As they stand now almost every dungeon feels like a Diablo action game crawler.
Ya man where is the MMO that is just a hallway with a treasure chest at the end? Oh wait I am far too lazy to open a chest so or to loot it from the ground so just have it suspended in mid air for me.
If you don't want to deal with trash mobs... maybe video games aren't for you at all. I was going to suggest fighting games or sports games but even they have their version of trash mobs. You need to play the season to get to the superbowl, or fight a lot of fights to get to Bison.
Personally I think an MMO that was just walking into a room with a boss in it would suck balls.
Ya man where is the MMO that is just a hallway with a treasure chest at the end? Oh wait I am far too lazy to open a chest so or to loot it from the ground so just have it suspended in mid air for me.
If you don't want to deal with trash mobs... maybe video games aren't for you at all. I was going to suggest fighting games or sports games but even they have their version of trash mobs. You need to play the season to get to the superbowl, or fight a lot of fights to get to Bison.
Personally I think an MMO that was just walking into a room with a boss in it would suck balls.
You’re basically saying is that you think boss fights are easy uninteresting battles that you do after clearing all those tough mobs to get your shiny gear?
Well there is another problem then most of the bosses at the end of these boring dungeons are just as boring?
So what you’re getting at is you think MMOs revolve around getting all this loot that shouldn't actually be hard or entertaining to get but just take forever and ever.
------------------------------------------------- Achiever 20.00%, Explorer 86.67%, Killer 60.00%, Socializer 33.33%
If there were not trash mobs, the bosses would not be epic bosses. They would just be the bad guys hanging out in the dungeon.
And really, it is just logical. I mean, you cannot have a forgemaster without people working the forges. You cannot have a gaoler without prisoners. You cannot have a broodmother without babies.
Think about it. How much sense would it make for these incredible badasses to be just sitting around doing nothing? None. They are not sitting around. They are getting something done. With minnions. Boss implies underlings.
"Gamers will no longer buy the argument that every MMO requires a subscription fee to offset server and bandwidth costs. It's not true you know it, and they know it." Jeff Strain, co-founder of ArenaNet, 2007
If there were not trash mobs, the bosses would not be epic bosses. They would just be the bad guys hanging out in the dungeon.
And really, it is just logical. I mean, you cannot have a forgemaster without people working the forges. You cannot have a gaoler without prisoners. You cannot have a broodmother without babies.
Think about it. How much sense would it make for these incredible badasses to be just sitting around doing nothing? None. They are not sitting around. They are getting something done. With minnions. Boss implies underlings.
Thats why you incorporate all of those things into the actual boss fight instead of just sticking waves of them in a big hallway before the boss.
They should be doing somthing not sitting around far away from the boss.
------------------------------------------------- Achiever 20.00%, Explorer 86.67%, Killer 60.00%, Socializer 33.33%
This is basically a significant part of what a mmorpg is, they don't have to be so "trashy" but they are pretty much required. There is a lot more worthy stuff to crusade against.
Also the majority of gamers who subscriptions you need for your game to even survive are not very good at these games. They can handle trash mobs not some epic fight.
Anarchy Online. First part Shadow Lands, certian type mobs dropped pieces of a 'recipe' usually four parts. You combine them then get the apporiate level notum canister, go to the right level incarnator and poof you have your boss.
Second Bit - Dyna Bosses - All over Rubi Ka are camps of all the same type of critter, with one big meanie in the middle that drops decent armor, weapons and nanos (spells). Usually on a 15-30 min timer.
Third Bit - Outdoor Named Bosses. IE a multiple group or single high level group that got its crap together. These usually drop a very nice(though can be dated this far into the game) peice of equipment or more.
Next bit, Alien Invasion. Drop your Organizations city shield which basically summons an Alien ship. You fight off the ground forces which cultimate in a small boss at the end. Then you can 'invade' the ship and slaughter everyone one board and the Boss himself. Yes is about the same vein as a normal dungeon. but is a bit more dynamic and the type mobs can vary, and are attuned to the level of the people on the ground.
And there are other variations on this theme throughout AO. Ranging from the usual 'trash mob' leading to boss mob team missions or full out dungeons such as the Subway or other such examples that escape me.
"Why do I have to fight minions before I reach their king"
Though it just doesn't apply to games but w/e.
if you wanna fight a boss right away go find those bosses that spawn minutely, hourly, weekly or even monthly.
If you got slumped straight to the boss it wouldn't even be a fucking dungeon. Hello?
"We got rid of the trinity." How'd you do that? "Now everyone can heal." Sounds like you just took the mechanic and spread it thin. "Well no, there's one class that can do it better than others." I see, so they're healers. "No. They're.." -mind asplode-
OP, giving the 'boss' mob a few adds doesn't make any fight any better really, it's been done and after x number of times doing the same fight it's just as boring as any other fight you've done x number of times.
The only way to make a fight you have done too many times the same way is to do it some other way, another strat, and after some time that will become just as boring too. It's repetative, and that usually equals boring to a player. I personally think that's why some people like PvP, your opponent isn't predictable in the same manner as a scripted AI.
Instead of asking why, think of a better mechanic then what exists today. This new way should be dynamic to avoid repetative boredom and it has to be so dynamic that after x number of iterations it still wouldn't be possible to post the sequence on a wiki or fan site.
You would probably have to make a mob that 'learns' so that next time it will counter the players actions that they used to kill it last time. That is not a small feat to implement.
Many posters have given you the answer to why there are trash mobs in the dungeons.
Of all the encounters I've done, I can conclude that the most fun part is trying to learn the fight and once you finally kill the encounter the first time, after that it becomes rinse and repeat and move to the next encounter.
Actually WoW tried this approach with the Trial of the Champion/Crusader dungeon and raid.
Everyone loved the arena questlines of Nagrand and Zuldrak. Everyone asked for a dungeon and or raid similar to those arenas (basically boss after boss in succession, gladiator arena style).
ToC came out and was pretty much given a thumbs down by the entire community.
We asked for it, we wanted it. But we didn't see how boring the concept was until it was actually implemented.
Why do alot of dungeons and raids have trash mobs?
I like doing big epic fights and battles and stuff but it seems alot of raids in MMOs are all about clearing all this trash crap to get to actual fights to have some fun.
Where is the MMO that is just going to let you do epic fights when you want to do a fight instead of clear though hours of shit to get there.
less time wasting more fun please.
Edit:
O and on the subject get rid of all the agressive mobs that prevent people from just running around in a zone if they feel like it instead of having to wade though a bunch of molasses to get to the other side.
Same could be said just about any game with progression feature's, perhaps those type of games are not the right games for you?
really this thread would have been so much better, if the title had gone more in the direction of, why dont dev make trashmobs more exciting.
do agree with the main idea of the post that trash mobs on its own is really boring, if you "have to" do the same instance week after week after week, but do want the mobs to be there as a way to build up for the final encounter, in a more meaningful way...give raid encounters more reason than just for their individual loot tables.
over all talking about how you d create dungeons, would have been more fun imo. ;
I think that I enjoy the trash mob fights in dungeons and raids. There is no reason to remove them, then it wouldn't even be a dungeon it would just be a boss fight.
Tell it to those who love TOC in WOW. Certainly it is not a conventional dungeon but it is a fun experience.
Comments
OMG, I would never attempt a raid against a 4 hour boss. Seriously, you'd want that? It would get the name of "the boss that never dies" if it had any difficulty to it whatsoever, other than the time it took to kill.
Tank has to go to the bathroom, group wipes.
Healer sneezes, group wipes.
Someone at the door, group wipes.
etc etc. a 4 hour long fight that is difficult the whole way through is asking to never kill the boss. SOMEONE is going to screw up, unless you're playing with all bots.
It seems you’re arguing that poor implementations of similar systems are bad, yes they are. World spawns are terrible that’s why you use a pop system that can have crafter/quests used to start it. And there can be many other ways.
I'm not saying having any sort of lesser mobs is a terrible idea but I HATE that it's used excessively to the point of terrible not to mention it's the ONLY system being used for end game content in a majority of games.
Bringing in that lore/David stuff was just a response to people who kept saying it wouldn't make sense with rl/lore comments. It's fantasy anything makes sense if you want it to....
A fight getting less epic because you did it 100 times also effects anything, repetition is boring thanks for the insight.
And because repetition is boring killing trash mobs gets boring about 100x faster than a single fight because you have to do tons of it in one dungeon.
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Achiever 20.00%, Explorer 86.67%, Killer 60.00%, Socializer 33.33%
EKSA
-------------------------------------------------
helthros,
So you enjoy trash mobs being in places for no other purpose than just to be there? I've played a gambit of mmos and I've come accross very few dungeons in all of them that I can recall that had mobs that were there for a logical purpose. Every single dungeon in WoW (just as an example since most people have played it) there are scores of mobs just sitting or standing there. Why? Why do they just sit there. And another thing that bugs me, if you saw your buddies being attacked wouldn't you help them? You would think that anything within sight or sound of action that those mobs in the vicinity would investigate. As they stand now almost every dungeon feels like a Diablo action game crawler.
Ya man where is the MMO that is just a hallway with a treasure chest at the end? Oh wait I am far too lazy to open a chest so or to loot it from the ground so just have it suspended in mid air for me.
If you don't want to deal with trash mobs... maybe video games aren't for you at all. I was going to suggest fighting games or sports games but even they have their version of trash mobs. You need to play the season to get to the superbowl, or fight a lot of fights to get to Bison.
Personally I think an MMO that was just walking into a room with a boss in it would suck balls.
Help support an artist and gamer who has lost his tools to create and play: http://www.gofundme.com/u63nzcgk
You’re basically saying is that you think boss fights are easy uninteresting battles that you do after clearing all those tough mobs to get your shiny gear?
Well there is another problem then most of the bosses at the end of these boring dungeons are just as boring?
So what you’re getting at is you think MMOs revolve around getting all this loot that shouldn't actually be hard or entertaining to get but just take forever and ever.
-------------------------------------------------
Achiever 20.00%, Explorer 86.67%, Killer 60.00%, Socializer 33.33%
EKSA
-------------------------------------------------
If there were not trash mobs, the bosses would not be epic bosses. They would just be the bad guys hanging out in the dungeon.
And really, it is just logical. I mean, you cannot have a forgemaster without people working the forges. You cannot have a gaoler without prisoners. You cannot have a broodmother without babies.
Think about it. How much sense would it make for these incredible badasses to be just sitting around doing nothing? None. They are not sitting around. They are getting something done. With minnions. Boss implies underlings.
"Gamers will no longer buy the argument that every MMO requires a subscription fee to offset server and bandwidth costs. It's not true you know it, and they know it." Jeff Strain, co-founder of ArenaNet, 2007
WTF? No subscription fee?
lol
"hai guyz, lets go beat the raid boss...no trash!!"
<10 minutes later, raid boss is dead>
"hai guyz, now what ya wanna do? This game has no content! /rage"
Thats why you incorporate all of those things into the actual boss fight instead of just sticking waves of them in a big hallway before the boss.
They should be doing somthing not sitting around far away from the boss.
-------------------------------------------------
Achiever 20.00%, Explorer 86.67%, Killer 60.00%, Socializer 33.33%
EKSA
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How about all the other genre games? why do they all have trash before reaching to the end and fight boss?
This is basically a significant part of what a mmorpg is, they don't have to be so "trashy" but they are pretty much required. There is a lot more worthy stuff to crusade against.
Also the majority of gamers who subscriptions you need for your game to even survive are not very good at these games. They can handle trash mobs not some epic fight.
Anarchy Online. First part Shadow Lands, certian type mobs dropped pieces of a 'recipe' usually four parts. You combine them then get the apporiate level notum canister, go to the right level incarnator and poof you have your boss.
Second Bit - Dyna Bosses - All over Rubi Ka are camps of all the same type of critter, with one big meanie in the middle that drops decent armor, weapons and nanos (spells). Usually on a 15-30 min timer.
Third Bit - Outdoor Named Bosses. IE a multiple group or single high level group that got its crap together. These usually drop a very nice(though can be dated this far into the game) peice of equipment or more.
Next bit, Alien Invasion. Drop your Organizations city shield which basically summons an Alien ship. You fight off the ground forces which cultimate in a small boss at the end. Then you can 'invade' the ship and slaughter everyone one board and the Boss himself. Yes is about the same vein as a normal dungeon. but is a bit more dynamic and the type mobs can vary, and are attuned to the level of the people on the ground.
And there are other variations on this theme throughout AO. Ranging from the usual 'trash mob' leading to boss mob team missions or full out dungeons such as the Subway or other such examples that escape me.
Should have just asked
"Why do I have to fight minions before I reach their king"
Though it just doesn't apply to games but w/e.
if you wanna fight a boss right away go find those bosses that spawn minutely, hourly, weekly or even monthly.
If you got slumped straight to the boss it wouldn't even be a fucking dungeon. Hello?
"We got rid of the trinity." How'd you do that? "Now everyone can heal." Sounds like you just took the mechanic and spread it thin. "Well no, there's one class that can do it better than others." I see, so they're healers. "No. They're.." -mind asplode-
OP, giving the 'boss' mob a few adds doesn't make any fight any better really, it's been done and after x number of times doing the same fight it's just as boring as any other fight you've done x number of times.
The only way to make a fight you have done too many times the same way is to do it some other way, another strat, and after some time that will become just as boring too. It's repetative, and that usually equals boring to a player. I personally think that's why some people like PvP, your opponent isn't predictable in the same manner as a scripted AI.
Instead of asking why, think of a better mechanic then what exists today. This new way should be dynamic to avoid repetative boredom and it has to be so dynamic that after x number of iterations it still wouldn't be possible to post the sequence on a wiki or fan site.
You would probably have to make a mob that 'learns' so that next time it will counter the players actions that they used to kill it last time. That is not a small feat to implement.
Many posters have given you the answer to why there are trash mobs in the dungeons.
Of all the encounters I've done, I can conclude that the most fun part is trying to learn the fight and once you finally kill the encounter the first time, after that it becomes rinse and repeat and move to the next encounter.
Actually WoW tried this approach with the Trial of the Champion/Crusader dungeon and raid.
Everyone loved the arena questlines of Nagrand and Zuldrak. Everyone asked for a dungeon and or raid similar to those arenas (basically boss after boss in succession, gladiator arena style).
ToC came out and was pretty much given a thumbs down by the entire community.
We asked for it, we wanted it. But we didn't see how boring the concept was until it was actually implemented.
I loved trash mobs in EQ they were really dangerous... mobs pathed etc...it was actually a challenge.
time sink
Same could be said just about any game with progression feature's, perhaps those type of games are not the right games for you?
really this thread would have been so much better, if the title had gone more in the direction of, why dont dev make trashmobs more exciting.
do agree with the main idea of the post that trash mobs on its own is really boring, if you "have to" do the same instance week after week after week, but do want the mobs to be there as a way to build up for the final encounter, in a more meaningful way...give raid encounters more reason than just for their individual loot tables.
over all talking about how you d create dungeons, would have been more fun imo. ;
Tell it to those who love TOC in WOW. Certainly it is not a conventional dungeon but it is a fun experience.