You understand that past levle 12 there are no vendor bought items? no armor or weapons or potions, everything is gained through player crafting, so gathering would be a good source of income, as for grinding monster drops for loot.. with this system you grind even more, you get less xp that means you will be killing certain mobs a hell of a lot longer getting a lot more loot.
I dont get your point and what you were trying to point out? This system does not affect farming mobs for money in anyway, if anything it means you would make a lot more money per level, cause you are killing a lott more mobs.
You asked them about gathering for money.
I told you that there were many ways to gain money and one of the most profitable ways was to just kill mobs and sell the drops.
You told them they should have an open mind and do other stuff when you seem to think the only way is to craft. Or gather. Or do the "traditional" stuff everyone does in MMOs.
There has to be people to farm mobs. They are very big generators of items in all games. Some like just killing mobs and don't have the time or patience to craft but they make plenty of money selling drops.
That's the point, I guess. Your mind was closed while telling them to open theirs.
And yes, I know that things will be player crafted.
But did you ever think they may be in a linkshell with plenty of other people already doing what you say they should do... crafting and gathering?
I don't think anyone in this game will want for gear with EVERYONE being told to kind of 'go crafting' when your surplus hits. If anything, there will be a HUGE excess of gear no one can sell because now EVERYONE is a crafter, lol. I know in beta there was little gear at first.
But once people started posting recipes, I could simply walk in there and see one guy with 20 half masks, another with 20 robes, another with 20 shoes.. etc and no one to buy it all because they leveled past it. When they changed jobs, the old stuff stayed on (level 15 gear) right on a lev 1 toon. Gear will be cheap and plentiful.
The only people really making money if you ask me, are the people who are leveled up and able to kill monsters for the rare items they drop the crafters need.
Going with the theory you recieve 0% exp/sp after 15 hours, there is still a question i've yet to see an answer to:
Quoted from the recent statement:
"Any experience earned past that point is saved as “surplus.” There is surplus for each class, and if you begin to see it please consider playing another class and adjust accordingly."
What exactly is this "saved surplus exp" and what exactly happens to it?
It clearly isn't simply deleted or not gained, or else it would not have been mentioned. Is this "surplus" applied to your total exp after the weekly reset?
Surplus experience is currently not being used. However, we have received many comments suggesting some sort of reward be put into effect regarding it, and we think that’s a pretty interesting idea. We don’t want to get ahead of ourselves, though, and we’re currently investigating the possibilities.
Im so confused at the people that are still saying "froce me to level other classes" even after the correct info is now explained. Even terribly easy games like WOW do not give you 100% bouns exp all the time (witch im sure the WOW peps would love by the way). Once the rest exp is done on a toon on WOW it done until you stop playing some more. And secondly its not the exp system forcing you to lv up other classes... its the game its self... Everyone has known since this game was in early development that you can and should customize your own class by using all skills from the class pool.. That is what is suppose to be cool about this game, you kind of get to make your own classes by putting together skills from all the classes.. to anyone that wants to play as only one class all the way to endgame.... Enjoy... But I will not need you in my group at all... ever
I pointed out this exact fact, if they switched it around, and called it rested exp, people would not evne realize this system, that is the biggest joke.
If they said every week you get 8 hours of double xp and once you burn it out you can eiither get normal xp until it resets or switch to a new class and burn its 8 hours of double xp, people would be like.. oh that is amazing, but its just the wording and people are making it seem all negative.
And as ive been saying, you will be playing multiple classes, if not you are gimping yourself, there are amazing skills that arent class locked, that are availble for every class once you unlock them and you will want to level up a certain class to get a certain skill for your main to make his life easier in the long run, but hoow would you know what works and what doesnt if you have no intention of trying any other classes.
People are calling this a broken system, and thats the problem with beta testers these days, we are still a month away from release, so we are in the testing phase, and people are angry about a broken mechanic, that square enix has said they plan on fixing, the whole thing just doesnt make sense, maybe if beta testers weren just trying to use the beta test as a free trial they would understand this.
But again...
Where are you getting that you're merely burning through bonus XP earned through Surplus?
That does not at all reflect what SE described in their explanation. They clearly state that you will get 100% xp for 8 hours and then the remaining 7 hours it will decrease down to zero, to "encourage you to change classes and play something else". Nowhere dothey say "you will continue to gain experience points, but would not gain any additional bonus".
The word "bonus" is not even in their dialogue, except in reference to Guardian's Favor for Guildleves and that's a completely separate thing. You, and others, are just pulling it out of thin air and touting it as fact.
Over the past week, and longer in fact in the Beta forums, people have been sharing their experiences in how they're seeing their xp reduce down to like 10% of what they're being rewarded, the rest going to Surplus. That is, if they would normally be getting 100, they're only getting 10. It's not that they'd be getting 100 base XP + 100 bonus XP and the bonus reduces over time 'til they're only gaining the base 100. They've been doing this to try and figure out what exactly the surplus/fatigue system was doing and how it was being calculated. They've been beyond the whole "does it decrease your xp/skill gain" part for some time now.. Lately they've been trying to figure out exactly *how* it's calculated.
This has been discussed and clarified and tested and confirmed numerous times by various people.
SE's clarification reflects precisely what people have been seeing in game.
Are some of you people trying to do damage control or a spin-job on the matter on SE's behalf or something?
"If you just step away for a sec you will clearly see all the pot holes in the road, and the cash shop selling asphalt..." - Mimzel on F2P/Cash Shops
So the official explanation is only slightly better than the "rampant rumors"
Also I want to point out the rumors about how it works were 100% true. They were off in timing only.
Basically you can only play 15 hours a week. Or roughly 2 hours a day. And not all of that will be at full experience.
This is not being done for casuals. This allows them to exactly dictate how long it will take the first person(s) to reach the end game. I'm betting that the end game is not ready and they need to slow people down. Otherwise, why even put this darconian system in place and lose a ton of your playerbase.
EDIT: Also SE can call this a reward to casuals all they want. It's not a reward, it's a punishment to people with more playtime. Anyone with 2 hours or more a day might as well put this game down and refund preorder.
I will never play a game the punishes me for playing it. That is just so....I can't even....just dumb man.
I posted in the other thread immediately before it got locked, so here it is again:
Originally posted by Emhster
For some reason it is not something that bothers me much. I feel like some of you are so hooked up on getting gratification through experience (or maybe some are just looking for excuse to flame any game) that you are ready to ditch this AAA game based on that single rule.
It seems you still get loot drops even if you're beyond your fatigue limit. This means more resource, more money, and there's an advantage.
I think the issue is not so much the idea of only getting gratification through experience. At least for me, that is not the problem. For most people, a large part of the reason you play an MMO is to see your character grow and advance. That's one reason why exp loss (or exp debt in WoW or Aion) works well as a death penalty. Everyone wants their character to progress, so delaying or reversing that progression is a universal punishment.
The problem I see is that efficiently levelling suddenly becomes a meta issue. My advancement in the game would be heavily dependent on a factor outside the game: the realtime week. If, during the 24 hours that I'll expect to spend playing in a week, only 8 of those hours really count for raising my physical level, it is in my best interest to use my highest level class during those 8 hours. That is the class where I'll be fighting the highest level monsters and gaining the most physical exp. Even if I want to level one of my other classes, or start on a new class, or do some gathering, it would be a waste to do it during those 8 hours. I would be penalizing myself in terms of my overall advancement, just as surely as if I had intentionally thrown out a Scroll of Extra XP.
You see what I'm saying? Even though I am not concerned solely with levelling up like a madman and rushing to max my level, seeing my character efficiently plodding forward with the time I have (which ain't much) is important. The specifics of this system make me sacrifice other things I would like to do in order to accomplish that. If a friend signs on and invites me to switch to another class to go explore or story quests for the night, I have to choose between doing that or raising my physical level during the only window of time that I'm allowed to do so. Not because I'm breaking the mold and doing something S-E doesn't think players should do. Not because balance or immersion or technological limitations demand it. Not because there is a justification that makes sense in the context of the lore. Not because of any reason that exists within the game.
Simply because it is Wednesday and my timer just reset.
I have been waiting so much time for this game....
Now after all this surplus crap,i actually HATE SE.
If i want to play a class all the day,i should be able to do it,and still gain xp.
If the game doesn't have any end game content,DON'T LAUNCH IT GREEDY COMPANY.You cant expect ppl to pay monthly fees and limit their progress,thats called milking players.
Truth is Square is up to something and not telling us the REAL truth.
If they wanted palyers to slow down and play levels instead of speed leveling,then create the content to make that happen.They could have done something as simple as allow players to turn xp off and gain rewards through an AA system the way other games do it.
The best way i can think of is to utilize VERY strong spells or abilites in the AA system,so if players utilize it they get to really enjoy the fruits of their class,if others want to just speed level,they get nothing in the end.They could do it by allowing you to ONLY gain certain bonuses per each level,so you can't speed level to say 75 then go back and gain all those bonuses,too late you lose out.
If i am not clear an example would be during level 1 you could utilize several AA points to gain a spell that is powerful versus Goblins,ONLY level 1 AA pts could gain this spell,you could not gain it during levels 2-75.These would also be spells or abilites that scale with you,so they remain useful throughout the game.
You could create items/gear that upgrades.These upgrade could be sought out during certain levels,once you outlevel the upgrade you lose out,ther is so many ways Square could encourage players to slow down.
Never forget 3 mile Island and never trust a government official or company spokesman.
Looks like we've got two extremes to this discussion. People that think 100 is a multiple of 0 and people that think it's game over after 15 hours.
Because 0 times anything cannot equal anything greater than 0 the bonus exp argument cannot be used. If the minumum exp gain was 50%, then we could tell ourselves 100% exp gain is a bonus, BUT even this would still be relative to the leveling progression.
For the other side, the game does not turn itself off after 15 hours. There is more to the game than leveling a single class, if you choose not to do anything but, then you are playing the game as you choose. You are not penalized for it, you are simply not rewarded for it. Besides, I'm yet to play a game that truly lets me play it how I want to play it. It's like going to McDonalds and complaining that they won't put Arby's sauce on your Big Mac. They won't do it because it isn't how they designed the product to be consumed.
How can I explain my perspective of this feature.... I believe that SE is the ONLY involved party that has a firm grasp on the whole of this game. I cannot form a solid opinion without the entire picture. It seems that the majority here gets worked up based on first impession of a feature or in defense of a feature. Perhaps other features rely on this feature?
I may or may not purchase this game, but I will not make my decision based on a single piece of puzzle which belongs to a puzzle I have not seen.
SE says it's to keep hard core players in balance with casual players but it sounds fishy to me. I just read the translation of SE's explanation from the Japanese Beta site. That 8 hours per week is per character not per class. The example was given that in real life we would get fatigue in x amount of hours of work even if we kept changing tools. If playing a game felt like work to me I sure wouldn't be playing it.
The cultural differences show up in all FF games, in one way or another. Was forced grouping in FF XI now this fatigue BS.
The explanation also said they are "looking" at the exp loss and may adjust it to not be so harsh. LOL, I thought that was an interesting statement.
I think I'll wait for that adjustment to take place before I invest my real life gil.
You are reading into this wrong. Your surplus experience drops to 0% after a certain amount of time but you still gain normal experience at 100%. They are not penalizing you for playing, they are rewarding you for playing more than one class. You can play one class all the time you just won't get the bonus experience. Hope this clears this up.
^this
Adding to this to make it a little more clear from the way I understand it now. You will always be getting 100% of normal XP from every mob you kill, but with Surplus you are getting a bonus for a period of time.
So its like this, at the start of the week you begin playing Conjurer:
* The first 8 hrs nets you 200% XP
* Then after those 8 hrs for the next 7 it slowly drops too 100% normal XP
* Hour 1 ~ 186%
* Hour 2 ~ 162%
* Hour 3 ~ 148%
* Hour 4 ~ 134%
* Hour 5 ~ 120%
* Hour 6 ~ 106%
* Hour 7 ~ 100%
* After those final 7 hrs of playing Conjurer you then only get 100% of normal XP and you can continue to play this class for as long as you want and never switch classes.
Now of course after 8 hours of playing Conjurer you can switch to another class if you want too ~ lets say Pugilist, which you havn't yet played this week, and it still has 80% additonal surplus XP for that week and it'll work the same as above:
* The first 8 hrs nets you 200% XP
* Then after those 8 hrs for the next 7 it slowly drops too 100% normal XP
* Hour 1 ~ 186%
* Hour 2 ~ 162%
* Hour 3 ~ 148%
* Hour 4 ~ 134%
* Hour 5 ~ 120%
* Hour 6 ~ 106%
* Hour 7 ~ 100%
* After those final 7 hrs of playing Pugilist you then only get 100% of normal XP and you can continue to play this class or switch back to Conjuror that is at 100% normal XP, or change to another class that still has its 200% of surplus XP.
After 7 days, this suplus XP will reset across the board for all classes, and you can then get that additional XP for 8 hrs all over again and just the classes you want to play.
Personally I think this is an awesome system that is very rewarding, and has absolutely no negative feedback from it after you use it all up on one class that week. For those of us that have played FFXI, think of it an automatic XP ring that lasts for 8hrs on every class each week. Now the only thing left to determine is how its counted down, so does just standing around on said class make it start to countdown?
Or what I'm thinking it'll only countdown when your weapon is out and in active mode, but when you sheath it and enter passive mode the countdown stops....thats my theory until we know more!
So far I been reading all these post and this seems to be the one that explains what the system is and if I am readign this correctly the only guys who may feel screwed are those guys who will be single classing (and even then since you are still gaining exp and since the exp multiplyer is the same across the board if you focused a single class and played all the time youd still level that class faster than the next guy)?
Now no matter what way you read it bonus or penatly you are wrong and your right there is no difference at all seriously. If you view the first 8 hours as regualr exp or if you view after the first 15 hours as regular exp makes all the difference in the world and it can apply to any game that uses an exp multiplayers its just word play and thats all.
Now for multiclassing this seems like an ok system and for single classing a crappy one. However overall if they got rid of it dependent upon whether they leave exp at the higher end 200% or the lower 100% (i wont use 0% as 0% would mean no exp at all and using it is dumb as all hell). Even if they did lock it in at one or the other unless its in at realse and gone later you wouldnt notice the difference at all as you would have nothing to compare it to.
So far almost everything in the post is based on perception and nothing else but antics with semantics. its all is thr glass half full or half empty both answers are right and both are wrong its all about perception.
It feels like a bomb was dropped over something standard. OMg there is an exp multiplyer its nothing new its in most games they are different from game to game. Penalty or bonus its the same effin thing seriously.
I have this image of Arena Net developers reading today's posts about FFXIV and....
Laughing, and laughing, and laughing. Then laughing, and laughing, and laughing some more. Followed by more laughing, and laughing, and laughing. Topping it off with another laugh. Perhaps like a Mark Hamil/Jokerish cackle dressed in necromantic robes.
Guild Wars 2 System vs. Final Fantasy System - coming soon on a MMA channel near you.
I have this image of Arena Net developers reading today's posts about FFXIV and....
Laughing, and laughing, and laughing. Then laughing, and laughing, and laughing some more. Followed by more laughing, and laughing, and laughing. Topping it off with another laugh. Perhaps like a Mark Hamil/Jokerish cackle dressed in necromantic robes.
Guild Wars 2 System vs. Final Fantasy System - coming soon on a MMA channel near you.
I'm a PC and Guild Wars 2 was my idea... .. .
Haha you are too right on this one. BTW you know FF don't PvP poor thing would die in the ring with GW2.
Truth is Square is up to something and not telling us the REAL truth.
If they wanted palyers to slow down and play levels instead of speed leveling,then create the content to make that happen.They could have done something as simple as allow players to turn xp off and gain rewards through an AA system the way other games do it.
The best way i can think of is to utilize VERY strong spells or abilites in the AA system,so if players utilize it they get to really enjoy the fruits of their class,if others want to just speed level,they get nothing in the end.They could do it by allowing you to ONLY gain certain bonuses per each level,so you can't speed level to say 75 then go back and gain all those bonuses,too late you lose out.
If i am not clear an example would be during level 1 you could utilize several AA points to gain a spell that is powerful versus Goblins,ONLY level 1 AA pts could gain this spell,you could not gain it during levels 2-75.These would also be spells or abilites that scale with you,so they remain useful throughout the game.
You could create items/gear that upgrades.These upgrade could be sought out during certain levels,once you outlevel the upgrade you lose out,ther is so many ways Square could encourage players to slow down.
While I understand what you're suggesting, it's a terrible idea. This game already has a complex levelling system. You have multiple class levels and also a physical level. Adding a third mode of advancement would be much more complicated and difficult to balance, and for no benefit. Why not benefit? Because it doesn't address the underlying problem.
The problem at its core is this: as with all MMOs, you need to have a certain amount of power in order to experience a particular slice of the content. This amount of power is correct for tackling the goblin camp, that amount for a rescue quest deep in the caverns, this amount for a fight with the elder dragon, that amount for a raid on the demon stronghold. These amounts of power (and the content associated with them) must be separated by a sufficiently long amount of time spent building up the character. It's purely a function of time. If you space it out so that you need to play for 1000 hours to finally prepare yourself for the demon stronghold, you're going to have some players who are ready for it in 2 months and others who won't be ready for it even after 2 years... purely because of the difference in time that they have.
If the problem were that they needed people to "slow down instead of speed leveling", that's no problem at all. Ready? Increase the xp needed to level by a factor of 4. Bam, 4000 hours instead of 1000, 8 months instead of 2 (or 8 years instead of 2 for casuals). Or they could triple the number of levels and decrease the amount of power that you gain with each level. Same difference. Your proposed AA system is the same basic concept; it doesn't close the gap between fastest and slowest, it just increases the length of the journey from character start to maximum power.
I'm not at all opposed to their desire to close the gap so that they can make the game long enough to be satisfying for hardcore players but also short enough that casuals will not take multiple years to reach the demon stronghold. I just think it's wrong for them to a.) institute an absolute cap on experience and b.) to base it around a weekly schedule.
I just had a thought and mind you, it's out there in left field but here goes. The PS3 version won't be released until 2011 due to the dev's needing time to adjust the game to play on the system. What if SE is doing this fatigue system thing to hold back the PC players so the PS3 people wont be that far behind? I did read that the PS3 gamers will get some sort of special shoe or something. Not having a PS3 I didn't read or rather retain what I read about it. Just my mind wandering......
I just had a thought and mind you, it's out there in left field but here goes. The PS3 version won't be released until 2011 due to the dev's needing time to adjust the game to play on the system. What if SE is doing this fatigue system thing to hold back the PC players so the PS3 people wont be that far behind? I did read that the PS3 gamers will get some sort of special shoe or something. Not having a PS3 I didn't read or rather retain what I read about it. Just my mind wandering......
I just had a thought and mind you, it's out there in left field but here goes. The PS3 version won't be released until 2011 due to the dev's needing time to adjust the game to play on the system. What if SE is doing this fatigue system thing to hold back the PC players so the PS3 people wont be that far behind? I did read that the PS3 gamers will get some sort of special shoe or something. Not having a PS3 I didn't read or rather retain what I read about it. Just my mind wandering......
Not likely if you want to hold players back just make the game slow leveling but even if you did that at the relase of the ps3 game youd have to lift those restrictions and even then youd have to provide some type of bonus to the PS3 players so they could catch up. All in all its really no do able the best you could do is provide some type of bonus exp to them or make the game fast to level so that the hitting endgame itself is not an accomplishment per se.
Look the system doesnt hold players back or anything at the least it promotes multiclassing and thats about it. People have gotten so blinded by the words they have skipped logic (and basic statistics) In favor of anger and I am sorry to say stupidity seriously a freshman high school math student could figure out where most went wrong. An arguement against this should be against any form of exp multiplyer its has nothing to do with holding back players for PS3.
You are reading into this wrong. Your surplus experience drops to 0% after a certain amount of time but you still gain normal experience at 100%. They are not penalizing you for playing, they are rewarding you for playing more than one class. You can play one class all the time you just won't get the bonus experience. Hope this clears this up.
^this
Adding to this to make it a little more clear from the way I understand it now. You will always be getting 100% of normal XP from every mob you kill, but with Surplus you are getting a bonus for a period of time.
So its like this, at the start of the week you begin playing Conjurer:
* The first 8 hrs nets you 200% XP
* Then after those 8 hrs for the next 7 it slowly drops too 100% normal XP
* Hour 1 ~ 186%
* Hour 2 ~ 162%
* Hour 3 ~ 148%
* Hour 4 ~ 134%
* Hour 5 ~ 120%
* Hour 6 ~ 106%
* Hour 7 ~ 100%
* After those final 7 hrs of playing Conjurer you then only get 100% of normal XP and you can continue to play this class for as long as you want and never switch classes.
Now of course after 8 hours of playing Conjurer you can switch to another class if you want too ~ lets say Pugilist, which you havn't yet played this week, and it still has 80% additonal surplus XP for that week and it'll work the same as above:
* The first 8 hrs nets you 200% XP
* Then after those 8 hrs for the next 7 it slowly drops too 100% normal XP
* Hour 1 ~ 186%
* Hour 2 ~ 162%
* Hour 3 ~ 148%
* Hour 4 ~ 134%
* Hour 5 ~ 120%
* Hour 6 ~ 106%
* Hour 7 ~ 100%
* After those final 7 hrs of playing Pugilist you then only get 100% of normal XP and you can continue to play this class or switch back to Conjuror that is at 100% normal XP, or change to another class that still has its 200% of surplus XP.
After 7 days, this suplus XP will reset across the board for all classes, and you can then get that additional XP for 8 hrs all over again and just the classes you want to play.
Personally I think this is an awesome system that is very rewarding, and has absolutely no negative feedback from it after you use it all up on one class that week. For those of us that have played FFXI, think of it an automatic XP ring that lasts for 8hrs on every class each week. Now the only thing left to determine is how its counted down, so does just standing around on said class make it start to countdown?
Or what I'm thinking it'll only countdown when your weapon is out and in active mode, but when you sheath it and enter passive mode the countdown stops....thats my theory until we know more!
So far I been reading all these post and this seems to be the one that explains what the system is and if I am readign this correctly the only guys who may feel screwed are those guys who will be single classing (and even then since you are still gaining exp and since the exp multiplyer is the same across the board if you focused a single class and played all the time youd still level that class faster than the next guy)?
Now no matter what way you read it bonus or penatly you are wrong and your right there is no difference at all seriously. If you view the first 8 hours as regualr exp or if you view after the first 15 hours as regular exp makes all the difference in the world and it can apply to any game that uses an exp multiplayers its just word play and thats all.
Now for multiclassing this seems like an ok system and for single classing a crappy one. However overall if they got rid of it dependent upon whether they leave exp at the higher end 200% or the lower 100% (i wont use 0% as 0% would mean no exp at all and using it is dumb as all hell). Even if they did lock it in at one or the other unless its in at realse and gone later you wouldnt notice the difference at all as you would have nothing to compare it to.
So far almost everything in the post is based on perception and nothing else but antics with semantics. its all is thr glass half full or half empty both answers are right and both are wrong its all about perception.
It feels like a bomb was dropped over something standard. OMg there is an exp multiplyer its nothing new its in most games they are different from game to game. Penalty or bonus its the same effin thing seriously.
This explanation would make perfect sense. If this is really how the system works then I think it's a great system.
Well that's why I mentioned that shoe item for the PS3. It could give bonus exp..don't know what it does.. speed up exp..no clue. And if the fatigue/surplus system would get adjusted when the PS3 hits.. then we'll know. As I said.. my mind was wandering....
I have this image of Arena Net developers reading today's posts about FFXIV and....
Laughing, and laughing, and laughing. Then laughing, and laughing, and laughing some more. Followed by more laughing, and laughing, and laughing. Topping it off with another laugh. Perhaps like a Mark Hamil/Jokerish cackle dressed in necromantic robes.
Guild Wars 2 System vs. Final Fantasy System - coming soon on a MMA channel near you.
I'm a PC and Guild Wars 2 was my idea... .. .
I have a hard time picturing this... Most companies enforce a level of professionalism far beyond your common forum goer. If they released a video of themselves looking at the thread and then laughing like that I would immediately seperate myself from any Arena Net products. Developers should support other developers for the sake of innovation, not tromp on it by laughing at them because they think their design will fail.
Well that's why I mentioned that shoe item for the PS3. It could give bonus exp..don't know what it does.. speed up exp..no clue. And if the fatigue/surplus system would get adjusted when the PS3 hits.. then we'll know. As I said.. my mind was wandering....
the shoes may very well need to do that. The only way it works no matter what they do to the exp gains for every1 is supply some form of exp multipler that only applies to PS3 users and increases exp gains above players on pc. No matter what you do with the fatigue system unless it applies to PS3 players and PS3 players alone there is no advantage.
It seems people don't really understand Class Rank, and Physical Class.
People keep equating PC to your over 'level'. This isn't true. Having a higher Phys class level doesn't really *do* anything. It doesn't make you anymore stronger in any given Class (Pugilist, etc), either. I'll explain (having played the beta..)
Your Physical class dictates your STAT progression. Meaning, you get 6 stat points per level, and some elemental points for elemental resistances. Now, I know what you're thinking. "But that means that a Phys Class 20 is better then a 12!".
Yes, and no. Mainly because the game CAPS your stats per class depending on the CLASS RANK. Meaning say you're physical class rank 20 with 60 STR. You use Pugilist Class Rank 10. Your effective/active STR is not going to be 60. It'll be far less then that. Now if you had a Class at 20? Then it'd be the full 60. So, in essence, stacking all your points into one stat is pretty much useless.
You see the difference in stats when you switch especially in the HP arena. I can play a Glad and have 500 some odd hps, and then switch to Mage, same Class Rank and only have like 300 something. Get the point?
Now take this into mind as you think about the whole surplus XP thing. What is this system really?
It's a way to make people who play one class have the same phys class level as their skill level. Meaning that a level 14 lancer will be level 14 phys level. (Which, btw, is idiotic. As Phys class takes WAY more XP to level then a class.)
Let me put it this way. I played a decent amount of time. I got the majority of physical classes to 7-8, save archer, and the mage classes to like 3-4. I was level 14 Phys. I never saw the surplus xp pop up on my class. I did, however, see the diminishing return. Which made me switch classes on the fly.
Also, the con system is based on your CLASS level not your physical level. So one mob might con red to my low level mage class, but con green or blue to my higher level Pugilist and Lancer classes.
Still, I don't like the fact they're trying to dictate how LONG you play a game. People should have the choice and personal responsibility to pick how long they intend to play. They *ARE* paying for it.
Now if the game was free to play? Sure, the devs can do whatever they want with the game.
The gaming companies should worry less about hardcore players then they do casual players. The casual player is the one who pays for the game. The hardcore people tend to play until game-ends, then bugger off for some different game. No problem. However, I don't think they should penalize anyone who's a paying member.
Hardcore, or Casual player alike.
If they want to draw casual players? Make the game more conducive to casual game play. Not hardcore game play. Meaning, no end-game raiding. Cause that caters to the hardcore more then it caters to casual players. I'm a casual game player and I rarely, if ever, end-game raided for gear. Personally, I didn't see the point of getting a 5-20 man team together and then people bitch if you got good gear or not for an hour or so, then go do it - then rinse and repeat for 50+ hours a week.
Just to get such and such a virtual item so they can pwn at PvP, or whatever.
Still, I get this sinking suspicion that it'll be pay to play, but at some point they're going to throw out an item mall.
And one of the items in the item mall will be one that refreshes your XP to full bonus (or takes away diminishing returns) for 5 a week! Huzzah! (snickers!)
I think they need to hire a better translator too. It's not like Squeenix can't afford a decent one to explain things. But then again, I highly doubt they care about any audience that isn't Japanese-centric. That's just how companies there are.
Still, In the long run, just remember this when you're thinking about buying this game :
Well that's why I mentioned that shoe item for the PS3. It could give bonus exp..don't know what it does.. speed up exp..no clue. And if the fatigue/surplus system would get adjusted when the PS3 hits.. then we'll know. As I said.. my mind was wandering....
the shoes may very well need to do that. The only way it works no matter what they do to the exp gains for every1 is supply some form of exp multipler that only applies to PS3 users and increases exp gains above players on pc. No matter what you do with the fatigue system unless it applies to PS3 players and PS3 players alone there is no advantage.
A PC player could obtain the shoes by purchasing the PS3 copy. SE would have to limit their use based on the hardware somewhow, and I would be suprised if they could do so. It makes more sense to say that the shoes are included in the PS3 version in order to get PC players to purchase a second copy of the game.
The shoe being only available to PS3 people would do just that, give bonus experience to only PS3 players.
I guess I am just trying to wrap my brain around SE's reasoning for this fatigue system. It has pro's and con's on both sides. I am not a big melee fan, almost always play some form of caster, usually a healer. For me to have to change to a melee class to keep playing or to round out my character would not be fun especially since the melee class has to constant hit a "attack" button. I think I read no more auto attack. That could make a tough encounter very stressful to me.
The shoe being only available to PS3 people would do just that, give bonus experience to only PS3 players.
I guess I am just trying to wrap my brain around SE's reasoning for this fatigue system. It has pro's and con's on both sides. I am not a big melee fan, almost always play some form of caster, usually a healer. For me to have to change to a melee class to keep playing or to round out my character would not be fun especially since the melee class has to constant hit a "attack" button. I think I read no more auto attack. That could make a tough encounter very stressful to me.
This game is based on class-switching. Me? I'm not really a magical-class player, myself. I tend to play Physical Classes, and during the beta that's what I did. For the most part? Once I got pugilist to rank 6 and got "Second Wind" (which is a heal for phys class that doesn't use mp) - it permanently stayed in my skill selection no matter what class I played.
Also, it's good to play the other classes. It gives you more access to skills. Some skills can be used by any and every class. And the higher your class - the more skills you can equip. At about 7-8, you can equip some 4-5 skills depending on how much they cost to equip.
Needless to say? I tried out the mage classes, too. And guess what? (I kept the second wind equipped on them too, cause their standard attack uses no MP, and gains TP).
It's a different system to get your head around - but once you do? It's actually very fun.
Also? A lot of 'gear' can be used by all classes. The cowl I wore (more like robe) could be used by any class. So, I'm not too sure if there is going to be class-specific gear or not. I guess we'll see once open beta, and the game actually comes out.
But every class, melee or otherwise - has an "attack" button you're going to be hitting.
Conju/Thaum has their standard no-MP using ranged attacks and you gotta button press on them too. The bigger spells use MP, not TP.
When I was leveling my mage class, I ended up using a mix of normal attack, and pugi special attacks cause they didn't use MP. And recovering MP was a pain. Either have a special skill you can only use once every 30m, or go back to the Aetheryte Stone.
Comments
You asked them about gathering for money.
I told you that there were many ways to gain money and one of the most profitable ways was to just kill mobs and sell the drops.
You told them they should have an open mind and do other stuff when you seem to think the only way is to craft. Or gather. Or do the "traditional" stuff everyone does in MMOs.
There has to be people to farm mobs. They are very big generators of items in all games. Some like just killing mobs and don't have the time or patience to craft but they make plenty of money selling drops.
That's the point, I guess. Your mind was closed while telling them to open theirs.
And yes, I know that things will be player crafted.
But did you ever think they may be in a linkshell with plenty of other people already doing what you say they should do... crafting and gathering?
I don't think anyone in this game will want for gear with EVERYONE being told to kind of 'go crafting' when your surplus hits. If anything, there will be a HUGE excess of gear no one can sell because now EVERYONE is a crafter, lol. I know in beta there was little gear at first.
But once people started posting recipes, I could simply walk in there and see one guy with 20 half masks, another with 20 robes, another with 20 shoes.. etc and no one to buy it all because they leveled past it. When they changed jobs, the old stuff stayed on (level 15 gear) right on a lev 1 toon. Gear will be cheap and plentiful.
The only people really making money if you ask me, are the people who are leveled up and able to kill monsters for the rare items they drop the crafters need.
"TO MICHAEL!"
Surplus experience is currently not being used. However, we have received many comments suggesting some sort of reward be put into effect regarding it, and we think that’s a pretty interesting idea. We don’t want to get ahead of ourselves, though, and we’re currently investigating the possibilities.
http://www.ffxivcore.com/topic/11964-surplus-and-you-komoto-speaks/
But again...
Where are you getting that you're merely burning through bonus XP earned through Surplus?
That does not at all reflect what SE described in their explanation. They clearly state that you will get 100% xp for 8 hours and then the remaining 7 hours it will decrease down to zero, to "encourage you to change classes and play something else". Nowhere dothey say "you will continue to gain experience points, but would not gain any additional bonus".
The word "bonus" is not even in their dialogue, except in reference to Guardian's Favor for Guildleves and that's a completely separate thing. You, and others, are just pulling it out of thin air and touting it as fact.
Over the past week, and longer in fact in the Beta forums, people have been sharing their experiences in how they're seeing their xp reduce down to like 10% of what they're being rewarded, the rest going to Surplus. That is, if they would normally be getting 100, they're only getting 10. It's not that they'd be getting 100 base XP + 100 bonus XP and the bonus reduces over time 'til they're only gaining the base 100. They've been doing this to try and figure out what exactly the surplus/fatigue system was doing and how it was being calculated. They've been beyond the whole "does it decrease your xp/skill gain" part for some time now.. Lately they've been trying to figure out exactly *how* it's calculated.
This has been discussed and clarified and tested and confirmed numerous times by various people.
SE's clarification reflects precisely what people have been seeing in game.
Are some of you people trying to do damage control or a spin-job on the matter on SE's behalf or something?
and the cash shop selling asphalt..." - Mimzel on F2P/Cash Shops
So the official explanation is only slightly better than the "rampant rumors"
Also I want to point out the rumors about how it works were 100% true. They were off in timing only.
Basically you can only play 15 hours a week. Or roughly 2 hours a day. And not all of that will be at full experience.
This is not being done for casuals. This allows them to exactly dictate how long it will take the first person(s) to reach the end game. I'm betting that the end game is not ready and they need to slow people down. Otherwise, why even put this darconian system in place and lose a ton of your playerbase.
EDIT: Also SE can call this a reward to casuals all they want. It's not a reward, it's a punishment to people with more playtime. Anyone with 2 hours or more a day might as well put this game down and refund preorder.
I will never play a game the punishes me for playing it. That is just so....I can't even....just dumb man.
I posted in the other thread immediately before it got locked, so here it is again:
I think the issue is not so much the idea of only getting gratification through experience. At least for me, that is not the problem. For most people, a large part of the reason you play an MMO is to see your character grow and advance. That's one reason why exp loss (or exp debt in WoW or Aion) works well as a death penalty. Everyone wants their character to progress, so delaying or reversing that progression is a universal punishment.
The problem I see is that efficiently levelling suddenly becomes a meta issue. My advancement in the game would be heavily dependent on a factor outside the game: the realtime week. If, during the 24 hours that I'll expect to spend playing in a week, only 8 of those hours really count for raising my physical level, it is in my best interest to use my highest level class during those 8 hours. That is the class where I'll be fighting the highest level monsters and gaining the most physical exp. Even if I want to level one of my other classes, or start on a new class, or do some gathering, it would be a waste to do it during those 8 hours. I would be penalizing myself in terms of my overall advancement, just as surely as if I had intentionally thrown out a Scroll of Extra XP.
You see what I'm saying? Even though I am not concerned solely with levelling up like a madman and rushing to max my level, seeing my character efficiently plodding forward with the time I have (which ain't much) is important. The specifics of this system make me sacrifice other things I would like to do in order to accomplish that. If a friend signs on and invites me to switch to another class to go explore or story quests for the night, I have to choose between doing that or raising my physical level during the only window of time that I'm allowed to do so. Not because I'm breaking the mold and doing something S-E doesn't think players should do. Not because balance or immersion or technological limitations demand it. Not because there is a justification that makes sense in the context of the lore. Not because of any reason that exists within the game.
Simply because it is Wednesday and my timer just reset.
I have been waiting so much time for this game....
Now after all this surplus crap,i actually HATE SE.
If i want to play a class all the day,i should be able to do it,and still gain xp.
If the game doesn't have any end game content,DON'T LAUNCH IT GREEDY COMPANY.You cant expect ppl to pay monthly fees and limit their progress,thats called milking players.
Guess im gonna have to wait for Tera or Rift....
Truth is Square is up to something and not telling us the REAL truth.
If they wanted palyers to slow down and play levels instead of speed leveling,then create the content to make that happen.They could have done something as simple as allow players to turn xp off and gain rewards through an AA system the way other games do it.
The best way i can think of is to utilize VERY strong spells or abilites in the AA system,so if players utilize it they get to really enjoy the fruits of their class,if others want to just speed level,they get nothing in the end.They could do it by allowing you to ONLY gain certain bonuses per each level,so you can't speed level to say 75 then go back and gain all those bonuses,too late you lose out.
If i am not clear an example would be during level 1 you could utilize several AA points to gain a spell that is powerful versus Goblins,ONLY level 1 AA pts could gain this spell,you could not gain it during levels 2-75.These would also be spells or abilites that scale with you,so they remain useful throughout the game.
You could create items/gear that upgrades.These upgrade could be sought out during certain levels,once you outlevel the upgrade you lose out,ther is so many ways Square could encourage players to slow down.
Never forget 3 mile Island and never trust a government official or company spokesman.
still reads like a penalty to me
you can call it 200%XP to start or 100%XP to start, you are still cutting it in half
you are more or less being forced to change class - which i think is kinda weird
it may be entirely usefull to change class but should you be pushed?
not completely sure why, but i get the feeling this is just a way to get players to buy character slots *shrug*
Looks like we've got two extremes to this discussion. People that think 100 is a multiple of 0 and people that think it's game over after 15 hours.
Because 0 times anything cannot equal anything greater than 0 the bonus exp argument cannot be used. If the minumum exp gain was 50%, then we could tell ourselves 100% exp gain is a bonus, BUT even this would still be relative to the leveling progression.
For the other side, the game does not turn itself off after 15 hours. There is more to the game than leveling a single class, if you choose not to do anything but, then you are playing the game as you choose. You are not penalized for it, you are simply not rewarded for it. Besides, I'm yet to play a game that truly lets me play it how I want to play it. It's like going to McDonalds and complaining that they won't put Arby's sauce on your Big Mac. They won't do it because it isn't how they designed the product to be consumed.
How can I explain my perspective of this feature.... I believe that SE is the ONLY involved party that has a firm grasp on the whole of this game. I cannot form a solid opinion without the entire picture. It seems that the majority here gets worked up based on first impession of a feature or in defense of a feature. Perhaps other features rely on this feature?
I may or may not purchase this game, but I will not make my decision based on a single piece of puzzle which belongs to a puzzle I have not seen.
SE says it's to keep hard core players in balance with casual players but it sounds fishy to me. I just read the translation of SE's explanation from the Japanese Beta site. That 8 hours per week is per character not per class. The example was given that in real life we would get fatigue in x amount of hours of work even if we kept changing tools. If playing a game felt like work to me I sure wouldn't be playing it.
The cultural differences show up in all FF games, in one way or another. Was forced grouping in FF XI now this fatigue BS.
The explanation also said they are "looking" at the exp loss and may adjust it to not be so harsh. LOL, I thought that was an interesting statement.
I think I'll wait for that adjustment to take place before I invest my real life gil.
So far I been reading all these post and this seems to be the one that explains what the system is and if I am readign this correctly the only guys who may feel screwed are those guys who will be single classing (and even then since you are still gaining exp and since the exp multiplyer is the same across the board if you focused a single class and played all the time youd still level that class faster than the next guy)?
Now no matter what way you read it bonus or penatly you are wrong and your right there is no difference at all seriously. If you view the first 8 hours as regualr exp or if you view after the first 15 hours as regular exp makes all the difference in the world and it can apply to any game that uses an exp multiplayers its just word play and thats all.
Now for multiclassing this seems like an ok system and for single classing a crappy one. However overall if they got rid of it dependent upon whether they leave exp at the higher end 200% or the lower 100% (i wont use 0% as 0% would mean no exp at all and using it is dumb as all hell). Even if they did lock it in at one or the other unless its in at realse and gone later you wouldnt notice the difference at all as you would have nothing to compare it to.
So far almost everything in the post is based on perception and nothing else but antics with semantics. its all is thr glass half full or half empty both answers are right and both are wrong its all about perception.
It feels like a bomb was dropped over something standard. OMg there is an exp multiplyer its nothing new its in most games they are different from game to game. Penalty or bonus its the same effin thing seriously.
I have this image of Arena Net developers reading today's posts about FFXIV and....
Laughing, and laughing, and laughing. Then laughing, and laughing, and laughing some more. Followed by more laughing, and laughing, and laughing. Topping it off with another laugh. Perhaps like a Mark Hamil/Jokerish cackle dressed in necromantic robes.
Guild Wars 2 System vs. Final Fantasy System - coming soon on a MMA channel near you.
I'm a PC and Guild Wars 2 was my idea... .. .
Haha you are too right on this one. BTW you know FF don't PvP poor thing would die in the ring with GW2.
While I understand what you're suggesting, it's a terrible idea. This game already has a complex levelling system. You have multiple class levels and also a physical level. Adding a third mode of advancement would be much more complicated and difficult to balance, and for no benefit. Why not benefit? Because it doesn't address the underlying problem.
The problem at its core is this: as with all MMOs, you need to have a certain amount of power in order to experience a particular slice of the content. This amount of power is correct for tackling the goblin camp, that amount for a rescue quest deep in the caverns, this amount for a fight with the elder dragon, that amount for a raid on the demon stronghold. These amounts of power (and the content associated with them) must be separated by a sufficiently long amount of time spent building up the character. It's purely a function of time. If you space it out so that you need to play for 1000 hours to finally prepare yourself for the demon stronghold, you're going to have some players who are ready for it in 2 months and others who won't be ready for it even after 2 years... purely because of the difference in time that they have.
If the problem were that they needed people to "slow down instead of speed leveling", that's no problem at all. Ready? Increase the xp needed to level by a factor of 4. Bam, 4000 hours instead of 1000, 8 months instead of 2 (or 8 years instead of 2 for casuals). Or they could triple the number of levels and decrease the amount of power that you gain with each level. Same difference. Your proposed AA system is the same basic concept; it doesn't close the gap between fastest and slowest, it just increases the length of the journey from character start to maximum power.
I'm not at all opposed to their desire to close the gap so that they can make the game long enough to be satisfying for hardcore players but also short enough that casuals will not take multiple years to reach the demon stronghold. I just think it's wrong for them to a.) institute an absolute cap on experience and b.) to base it around a weekly schedule.
I just had a thought and mind you, it's out there in left field but here goes. The PS3 version won't be released until 2011 due to the dev's needing time to adjust the game to play on the system. What if SE is doing this fatigue system thing to hold back the PC players so the PS3 people wont be that far behind? I did read that the PS3 gamers will get some sort of special shoe or something. Not having a PS3 I didn't read or rather retain what I read about it. Just my mind wandering......
Then it's still a horrible idea.
Not likely if you want to hold players back just make the game slow leveling but even if you did that at the relase of the ps3 game youd have to lift those restrictions and even then youd have to provide some type of bonus to the PS3 players so they could catch up. All in all its really no do able the best you could do is provide some type of bonus exp to them or make the game fast to level so that the hitting endgame itself is not an accomplishment per se.
Look the system doesnt hold players back or anything at the least it promotes multiclassing and thats about it. People have gotten so blinded by the words they have skipped logic (and basic statistics) In favor of anger and I am sorry to say stupidity seriously a freshman high school math student could figure out where most went wrong. An arguement against this should be against any form of exp multiplyer its has nothing to do with holding back players for PS3.
This explanation would make perfect sense. If this is really how the system works then I think it's a great system.
Well that's why I mentioned that shoe item for the PS3. It could give bonus exp..don't know what it does.. speed up exp..no clue. And if the fatigue/surplus system would get adjusted when the PS3 hits.. then we'll know. As I said.. my mind was wandering....
I have a hard time picturing this... Most companies enforce a level of professionalism far beyond your common forum goer. If they released a video of themselves looking at the thread and then laughing like that I would immediately seperate myself from any Arena Net products. Developers should support other developers for the sake of innovation, not tromp on it by laughing at them because they think their design will fail.
the shoes may very well need to do that. The only way it works no matter what they do to the exp gains for every1 is supply some form of exp multipler that only applies to PS3 users and increases exp gains above players on pc. No matter what you do with the fatigue system unless it applies to PS3 players and PS3 players alone there is no advantage.
It seems people don't really understand Class Rank, and Physical Class.
People keep equating PC to your over 'level'. This isn't true. Having a higher Phys class level doesn't really *do* anything. It doesn't make you anymore stronger in any given Class (Pugilist, etc), either. I'll explain (having played the beta..)
Your Physical class dictates your STAT progression. Meaning, you get 6 stat points per level, and some elemental points for elemental resistances. Now, I know what you're thinking. "But that means that a Phys Class 20 is better then a 12!".
Yes, and no. Mainly because the game CAPS your stats per class depending on the CLASS RANK. Meaning say you're physical class rank 20 with 60 STR. You use Pugilist Class Rank 10. Your effective/active STR is not going to be 60. It'll be far less then that. Now if you had a Class at 20? Then it'd be the full 60. So, in essence, stacking all your points into one stat is pretty much useless.
You see the difference in stats when you switch especially in the HP arena. I can play a Glad and have 500 some odd hps, and then switch to Mage, same Class Rank and only have like 300 something. Get the point?
Now take this into mind as you think about the whole surplus XP thing. What is this system really?
It's a way to make people who play one class have the same phys class level as their skill level. Meaning that a level 14 lancer will be level 14 phys level. (Which, btw, is idiotic. As Phys class takes WAY more XP to level then a class.)
Let me put it this way. I played a decent amount of time. I got the majority of physical classes to 7-8, save archer, and the mage classes to like 3-4. I was level 14 Phys. I never saw the surplus xp pop up on my class. I did, however, see the diminishing return. Which made me switch classes on the fly.
Also, the con system is based on your CLASS level not your physical level. So one mob might con red to my low level mage class, but con green or blue to my higher level Pugilist and Lancer classes.
Still, I don't like the fact they're trying to dictate how LONG you play a game. People should have the choice and personal responsibility to pick how long they intend to play. They *ARE* paying for it.
Now if the game was free to play? Sure, the devs can do whatever they want with the game.
The gaming companies should worry less about hardcore players then they do casual players. The casual player is the one who pays for the game. The hardcore people tend to play until game-ends, then bugger off for some different game. No problem. However, I don't think they should penalize anyone who's a paying member.
Hardcore, or Casual player alike.
If they want to draw casual players? Make the game more conducive to casual game play. Not hardcore game play. Meaning, no end-game raiding. Cause that caters to the hardcore more then it caters to casual players. I'm a casual game player and I rarely, if ever, end-game raided for gear. Personally, I didn't see the point of getting a 5-20 man team together and then people bitch if you got good gear or not for an hour or so, then go do it - then rinse and repeat for 50+ hours a week.
Just to get such and such a virtual item so they can pwn at PvP, or whatever.
Still, I get this sinking suspicion that it'll be pay to play, but at some point they're going to throw out an item mall.
And one of the items in the item mall will be one that refreshes your XP to full bonus (or takes away diminishing returns) for 5 a week! Huzzah! (snickers!)
I think they need to hire a better translator too. It's not like Squeenix can't afford a decent one to explain things. But then again, I highly doubt they care about any audience that isn't Japanese-centric. That's just how companies there are.
Still, In the long run, just remember this when you're thinking about buying this game :
Patience,
and
Caveat Emptor.
A PC player could obtain the shoes by purchasing the PS3 copy. SE would have to limit their use based on the hardware somewhow, and I would be suprised if they could do so. It makes more sense to say that the shoes are included in the PS3 version in order to get PC players to purchase a second copy of the game.
The shoe being only available to PS3 people would do just that, give bonus experience to only PS3 players.
I guess I am just trying to wrap my brain around SE's reasoning for this fatigue system. It has pro's and con's on both sides. I am not a big melee fan, almost always play some form of caster, usually a healer. For me to have to change to a melee class to keep playing or to round out my character would not be fun especially since the melee class has to constant hit a "attack" button. I think I read no more auto attack. That could make a tough encounter very stressful to me.
This game is based on class-switching. Me? I'm not really a magical-class player, myself. I tend to play Physical Classes, and during the beta that's what I did. For the most part? Once I got pugilist to rank 6 and got "Second Wind" (which is a heal for phys class that doesn't use mp) - it permanently stayed in my skill selection no matter what class I played.
Also, it's good to play the other classes. It gives you more access to skills. Some skills can be used by any and every class. And the higher your class - the more skills you can equip. At about 7-8, you can equip some 4-5 skills depending on how much they cost to equip.
Needless to say? I tried out the mage classes, too. And guess what? (I kept the second wind equipped on them too, cause their standard attack uses no MP, and gains TP).
It's a different system to get your head around - but once you do? It's actually very fun.
Also? A lot of 'gear' can be used by all classes. The cowl I wore (more like robe) could be used by any class. So, I'm not too sure if there is going to be class-specific gear or not. I guess we'll see once open beta, and the game actually comes out.
But every class, melee or otherwise - has an "attack" button you're going to be hitting.
Conju/Thaum has their standard no-MP using ranged attacks and you gotta button press on them too. The bigger spells use MP, not TP.
When I was leveling my mage class, I ended up using a mix of normal attack, and pugi special attacks cause they didn't use MP. And recovering MP was a pain. Either have a special skill you can only use once every 30m, or go back to the Aetheryte Stone.