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A Great Take on Fatigue From Thachsanh
Bureyku
Member Posts: 488
Thachsanh has been breaking down the surplus and has explained it in a way that makes a lot more sense than most of what I have read. I will post a few things from him:
Every single RPG game out there controls and dictate player progression. It comes with the genre. The experience curve - the meaning of it sole existence is to control player's progression.
So instead of having a dynamic system like this they jack up the experience curve to make it like Lineage 2 or AION. It will affect the lower end players (casual ones) most strongly as they hardly feel any progress at all.
At least this way, they can control the progression of the hardcore player while allow the casual player to progress at normal pace.
In the end, it's all depend on where they set the threshold and what are they planning to allow us to use the accumulated "bonus points" for.
- Thachsanh @ MMORPG.com
If you think about it. Every developer sits down and says it needs to take X time to get Y xp and end up at Z level. In most MMORPG's like Aion/FFXI/Lineage that curve of X time and Y xp is insane. Casual players can make almost no progress over X time. With fatigue they can still control X time to end up at Z level while manipulating Y xp by giving bonus each week and limiting total progression via fatigue. This lets them control X time and Y xp to get to Z level and lets casuals advance and feel like they are accomplishing something throughout.
It makes a lot more sense if you think about it and what they are trying to do.
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Comments
I realize what they are trying to do, and I admit that it helps meets their goal of making the game more geared toward casual players in most cases (not the case of the casual player who only plays maybe 1 day a week, but wants to play for 16 hours straight and isn't interested in leveling more than 1 job in the stretch).
This does leave me with the question of why the game must reward one playstyle and restrict another though. Why not try to address the problem created by other designs rather than just reverse it? I don't believe it's impossible for a game to be equally rewarding and fun for both casual and hardcore players. Oh well, I supposed that's a separate discussion.
Has anyone yet to show how this will actually effect the harcore player? Or are we still in the assumption it will instead of actually seeing the effect on them? I know there has been tons of threads and posts with many, many people who think they know how it will all play out. What I am curious about is do we actually have anything that shows its true effect. Rocs Loc's vid on Youtube plays out that it is in fact there, but it also plays out that when the reset comes in each week his xp shoots up to a REALLY nice level. Other than him seeing the surplus he doesn't seem to say it has any real adverse effect on his leveling ability.
Has anyone seen anythign yet that actually shows the adverse effects everyone claims will be smacking the hardcore players around?
(DISCLAIMER - The use of the word YOU in the above post is not directed at any one person in particular, but towards those who fall into the category itself - there is no personal attack here, neither intentional nor implied.)
Gotta wait until release, becouse this system will be tweaked way to much,to make asumptions as to what extend does it actually affects hardcores.
Now the term hardcore is way overrated imo, i do not call hardcore someone who grinds 24/7 and comes to the party without gear/skills/ experience on party game play. Belive me i faced this problem just way to many times on 11. Thats not a "hardcore player". Hardcore for me is someone who understands the game as a whole and take the time to be maxed on gear and skills everytime you party with him, not someone who hits lv cap on 1 week.Is my opinion in the subject anyhow, and if this system gets rid of that type of "hardcore", more power to them.
Except the casual player will progress at a normal pace (as they always do), while the hardcore player will be forced to grind out more professions.
You can't give your game the guile of being casual by focusing on the hardcore, even if it is to limit the latter in many ways.
You make a casual game by focusing on the casuals, by giving them more content more interesting stuff to do in the progression part while the hardcore rush along as they always do.
The devs are simply looking in a completely wrong direction to make their game more casual, I don't see a casual player playing this game for long in the first place (in the West anyhow).
Feel free to use my referral link for SW:TOR if you want to test out the game. You'll get some special unlocks!
Here's a developer quote explaining how the system works currently:
http://www.onrpg.com/boards/165542.html
"Within the first eight hours of play, you can earn 100% experience. The seven hour period following will see your possible experience gradually approach zero.
This system is on a weekly timer. After a week has passed since you began skilling that particular weapon, the timer will reset. It will start anew when you skill up again.
Any experience earned past that point is saved as “surplus.” There is surplus for each class, and if you begin to see it please consider playing another class and adjust accordingly.
However, experience points are not specific to any class and therefore the decrease in experience points is not affected by changing classes."
So, let's say as a hardcore you play 40-50 hours per week (some play more) - you are essentially going to be "forced" to switch between atleast 5-7 different classes during any given week (assuming that you are even interested enough in all those other classes to keep playing them 8 hours straight each). That casual player who plays say 7-16 hours a week will be compelled to switch once, at most. So, if as a hardcore player, you're not interested enough in pretty much every class in the game, you're going to find yourself somewhat frustrated.
Not to stir shit up, but you do realise they explained it diferently on beta forums becouse of the misunderstanding on "foreign forums" translation?Is why all the problem started.
We should just avoid any explanation but the actual one from SE , IMO. Is not how it works.Is on a thread below i think.Theres some mayor diferences in SE explanation and what all the external sources translated from the JP source.
Erm, that is an actual explanation from SE. I left out the person quoted there:
Final Fantasy XIV director
Nobuaki Komoto
Tanaka accused foreign sites for mistranslating - but the quote on this forum was actually taken from FFXIVCore, which seems to be pretty reliable in it's translation, and subsequent corrections of mistranslated items. I honestly don't see what could have been so easily mistranslated and change the meaning of those few sentences I posted. And how are we going to get it straight from SE? Someone has to translated it regardless.
Official release today by zam.com, the official translated version given to zam.com by Komoto himself.
http://ffxiv.zam.com/story.html?story=23092
This caused all the trouble , Until SE posted on eu and na forums nothin was clear.I didnt mean you , i ment ffxivcore and the rest of fansites, especially that 1 that said 1h limitation and the rest of fansites followed.There are huge language barriers so is not so easy to explain it correctly.I just think people should use the actual SE one witch is the aproved explanation from SE team and the most acurrate one.
edit; this is what he says at the end of his explanation,
"Lastly, as director of this title, I wish to deeply apologize for the lateness of my comments due to my absence while attending Gamescom. In addition, articles written during my trip contained much speculation, outdated information and mistranslations which only invited more confusion. In the future, I will do my best to make direct, official statements in a timely manner. I humbly ask for your understanding regarding this matter."
Well, the one I've posted is that most accurate one - fistorm just linked the updated explanation, which clarifies some points (for example, that you aren't necessarily limited to the weekly timer) but otherwise it seems like what I quoted. I agree that people should choose their sources carefully and question things more readily though.
Anyway - that said, I think it's been shown that this system can potentially cause frustration for hardcore players in it's current form.
Ok, well all that does help best it can. The reason I asked is I personally do fall in the middle between casual and hardcore, and even more towards hardcore if you look at time spent playing per week. My playstyle is different than most though as I tend to spread that 40-60 hrs a week out over mutliple alts or classes with an emphasis on crafting over combat. However, as this has all played out it doesnt seem to matter if its swinging a halberd or hammering on an anvil, if you do it too long it will effect you the same.
I personally dont see it being all that big of an issue, with a little modification on my playstyle I should still be able to put in 40-60 of 'productive' time by rotating my progressing over the week. They are still sticking with one character slot with the option to buy a second or third right? As that may also assist in this. I dont mind paying for the extra slots if it helps my entertainment experience in the long run. An extra $10 to have more fun on a one time charge is like getting popcorn and a large DIET drink at the movies. You dont need it sure, but it makes the entertainment experience better.
All in all though, it seems everyone is saying we need to wait for the open BETA in early September to see how it all plays out, and I'm ok with that. Headstart is still the 22nd, if I must I can even wait until then to see it all.
(DISCLAIMER - The use of the word YOU in the above post is not directed at any one person in particular, but towards those who fall into the category itself - there is no personal attack here, neither intentional nor implied.)
If thisis the goal then why have the curve at all? Why not flatten it out like GW2 does? Or issue a Rested EXP like WoW and AION?
I think trying to be clever about it creates more problem and I strongly believe that this EXP system is stupid no matter how they try to sugar coat it.
To be honet, even casual players plays more than 8hrs a week. And there's a lot of casual players I know that tries to catch up on the weekends which they usually total of 20-30hrs/week game play time. I personally play 24-30hrs/week.
I think it's really stupid for Square-Enix to implement a player control system like this. If a player wants to play 24/7/365, why do Square-Enix cares?
EDIT: I don't need Square-Enix to be my online Mom.
Ready for GW2!!!
Since the OP quoting me, I can make it a bit more clear. You don't want SE to be your online Mom but you already have online Moms in every MMORPG out there. Blizzard did this, NCSoft did this, just using a different method.
Think about it, what is the true progression in an MMORPG or in an RPG in general? Suzaku, a beta player has a very detail post about this but I am kind of tired now and I don't want to quote his entire post here. So, in short, I can tell you it's your level and not your experience bar. The experience bar as well as the experience curve was invented to keep the players in check. Its sole purpose was to be your online Mom. There are just no middle ground in this, if you are level 79 with just 1 slice of experience before level 80 you are still level 79 and there is nothing you can do to join the level 80 battleground. There is nothing you can do to wear that purple level 80 armor, wield that level 80 weapon. The level number is the true progression, the experience bar is just an illusion of progression.
If the developers wanted players to get 1 level a week, they will design the experience table and the experience curve so the majority of players can only get 1 level per week. If they want the general population to reach A level in B time, they will design the experience curve to do so. The way SE is doing is just a different approach to the whole thing.
The whole system is just a different version of rested experience system if you think about it. Unlike rested system, your experience gain can go to 0% but in return, your rested experience regenerate everywhere when you out of combat instead of having to log out or sit in an Inn like WoW.
So, like I said in the quote, it all depends on where SE decided to set the threshold at and how fast the surplus regeneration will be. Don't throw number right now because they mean nothing. They are still adjusting and playing with these numbers. There is no guarantee that it will be the same when the game releases. If they set the threshold so that it will only affect the top 5% of the player base, I am perfectly fine with it. You can't please everyone, you know.
Also, they said they are looking into ways for you to use the surplus experience. May be they come up with something cool and people will start screaming it's way to hard to get surplus experience because the regen is too fast, or the threshold is too high, and it's not possible for the casual players to attain those cool things, so on and so forth....
you guys need to chill until you see the changes
i dont think Se wants deaths on there hands because there game calls for that much playtime
Actually, if your playing an online game 24/7/365, than you might just need a new Mom. To my knowledge the only people who play 100% of the time for an entire year are Chinese farmers, unless your one of them, than well ok I can understand your frustration with this system.
(DISCLAIMER - The use of the word YOU in the above post is not directed at any one person in particular, but towards those who fall into the category itself - there is no personal attack here, neither intentional nor implied.)
lol from what ive seen none of you guys are very hardcore, hardcore dont bitch about leveling being hard, bitching isnt hardcore lol
So where do u get the 8hrs a week from?? Did u even try to inform yourself before u Judge the system or is this just an desperate attempt on keeping the hate going?
As of this morning we know that your Fatigue will go away slowly once u dont lvl your job anymore we do not know how fast that happens tho.
Rocs mentioned something about hitting Fatigue with your Job than switching to another job for 4 hrs and u would be able to get 1hr full exp on the first job again. Now i do not know if this numbers r accurate but u get the idea.
So for u to hit the 0exp mark u first would have to get the amount of exp SE thinks u can get in 15 hrs and that's without any break from lvling your job.
I would say its save to assume that a player with 20-30hrs game-time per week shouldn't hit the 0exp penalty at all.
And besides like the system or not but honestly if a game offers u so less to do that all u can think of is lvling 1 job 15hrs without break than the game must suck really bad and the surplus system should be the last thing to worry about.
I agree with the OP that this Fatigue system isn't that big of an issue. If you look at it in retrospect, the XP earned to XP needed is insanely nice. XP earned is extremely high, while XP needed is extremely low. Basically during the 8 hours before XP decrease kicks in you can get 10 levels racked up, and then about another 5 during the XP decrease period. And if you get surplus XP back I assume you can get another 5 levels from that. That was at lower levels. I was able to hit level 20 within my first 3 days (without any surplus exp returned to me) . Three days is all the time I got with closed beta,. But during that time period I was able to tell that leveling in this game goes EXTREMELY fast, and the nice thing is the game isn't just about leveling. It's about the experience, they have immersive storyline quests for your to do, the crafting system is unique and allows for a great amount of entertainment value. It's a lot better than watching a bar move across the screen. People are upset because they don't understand how this suplus/fatigue system will affect them, they think it's punishment, it's really not. At the end of the week you get the same amount of EXP as you would have if you had played a week with a lower amount of XP earned and no fatigue system. When I mean the XP earned is high, it's extremely high, you can get to physical level 10 within your first hour, which WoW can't even say that. Plus you can still level your class rank while your physical level is fatigued, it's honestly not bad at all, and overreacting to it without seeing how it truly affects you is just ignorant.
Please keep this topic to a single thread. Thanks.
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