A different kind of an assassin...

rbc13183

 

Okay, I did say some of these things in other threads, but I think that such a discussion would fit more nicely in a thread dedicated to giving the community a chance to offer more fun suggestions to improve, and thus save the assassin in the Guild Wars universe. I say “save”, because there appears to be a lot of GW1 players who absolutely hate the GW1 assassin, and want him to die forever. It looks like there’s even more hatred for this class than there is for the rogue in WoW. That really says something. Hopefully this character can be saved, because there is a huge niche of assassin lovers in the gaming community. And they are not all jerktards, either. Some are mature players who really appreciate the features of such a class, and may even follow them in fantasy literature.

 

Throwing out the baby with the bathwater is not going to really satisfy those players who are actually looking forward to playing that type of character. I think its best to at first look at ways to get rid of the annoying things about the class, not the class itself.

 

I’ll start off first (a few of these things were already posted in other threads as I said above, so they will be familiar to some):

I think that we should re-visit the assassin class and its current mechanics in most fantasy based games. Invisibility and teleportation (shadow step), while fun for the player who possesses that skill, is annoying as heck to other players. And it can even lead to exploits. I haven’t played GW1, but some players on the GW2 guru forums have really enlightened me to some crazy things that assassins could do in both GW1 pve and pvp, making them annoyingly OP. This is why I think invisibility and shadow step really needs to be done away with. Such skills belong more to that of an Anime-styled ninja, not your classic fantasy lore based assassin. Assassin’s from the past have had to rely more on subtlety, realistic stealth and disguise, decent (not elite) combat skills, and tools for utility. I’ll try to categorize the things I think should be changed in order for this character to fit more of this style again.

 

1. Magical Skills need to go: There has never been any explanation in any of the previous MMO’s as to why the rogue/assassin (a non-magic using class) has the ability to accomplish magical feats. They just seem to be able to. I’ve already said a word about this above, but invisibility is more of a magical ability which I don’t think should be exclusive to one class. If players are determined to keep invisibility around, then it should be accessible to everyone in the form of a highly expensive magical potion. This has been implemented in other games, so I don’t see how that wouldn’t work. Otherwise, it shouldn’t even exist for players at all. The same goes for teleportation, or “shadow-step” (its name depends on what game you are playing). The ability to teleport, should in my opinion be reserved for caster classes like a wizard or ninja of some sort. I say this because it’s magical, and I don’t see any explanation as to why the rogue/assassin can do it in most games. He just can (?).

 

2. Attributes: Speed, dexterity, and agility are essential features of an assassin class, as he has to remain nimble and quick. However, being able to surpass the warrior in critical hits doesn’t make since to me. The explanation that most games give is that assassins know how to utilize weak points and hit you where it hurts. Why in the world would the warrior not be able to do that? What I liked about pnp DnD was you were able to develop a warrior who was really deadly, striking at his opponent’s critical areas with frightening accuracy. This type of play style shouldn’t be excluded from a warrior, because warriors are known for versatility in combat.

 

3. Skills: Speaking of warriors vs. assassins, I’m not sure that I understand how an assassin should ever be able to outshine a warrior in straight toe to toe, blow for blow combat. The warrior should have access to every possible melee skill he can get his hands on, because he represents the best group of martial artists that the world has to offer! He’s not some bumbling idiot, swinging his sword wherever he can connect! He’s a combat specialist. An experienced warrior knows how to take his opponent down quickly, not just outlast him. While an assassin can be an excellent melee character, his main focus should be more on utility in combat than on in-your-face combat. Most skills should keep the assassin focused on a tactical use of his tools. For instance a dagger should be perfect for applying different poisons up close (instant damage, damage over time, hallucination, slow movement, unconsciousness, etc) or doing secret backstab attacks, but not for going toe to toe. It should be decent, but it shouldn’t be a better choice than a great sword in such a situation.

 

Other skills that rely on tools would be bomb skills. Not just smoke bombs for distraction either (that’s still cool though), but also explosive damage bombs. Maybe traps too (not sure about this one, because it appears that this may need to be exclusive to the ranger still). Darts and crossbows would be great for long distance poison applications, but maybe lower the damage of these skills, and increase their cooldown to simulate a more realistic load time. Any other ideas for skills are also welcome.

 

4. Stealth: Okay this one is tricky because most games have given up and gone the way of invisibility. However, not all developers have resorted to this. Anyone who has played DDO can attest to this. While their version of stealth probably needs some work too, it best represents one of my suggestions for stealth. Rely on actual structures in the game, and stay out of the light. You see, disappearing should only be possible while standing still in the shadows. An assassin shouldn’t be able to hide in an open, low-cut field, while the sun is beaming down on him! Its just plain unfair. If an assassin attacks you, and is using stealth as an advantage, you should be able to even the playing field by moving out in the open. Then the assassin would have to think more tactically to take you down, resulting in him having to resort to ranged attacks like darts, crossbows, or bombs maybe. Or he can try to close the gap and take you down in melee, but this would make him more vulnerable to your attacks now. Either way, it’s more challenging for the assassin.

 

A skill like "silent movement" or "stalk" wouldn't be too bad, but it can't make you invisible. It should only do things like eliminate the sound of footsteps and voice-overs coming from your player (kinda helpful in PVP maybe?), and keep PVE mobs from detecting you if you are not directly within their line of sight (good for lining up backstabs). Pushing one button shouldn't give you a ridiculously huge advantage before the combat even starts, which is why I think invisibility should go.

 

5. Outfitting: Most games allow assassins to wear medium armor, but I’m not sure I agree with that either. Most of the thick leather outfits that we’ve seen in some fantasy mmo’s are laughable in light of the assassin’s need to remain quick and nimble. The assassin should be focusing more on dodging and staying mobile, not mitigating damage. Cloth is all I’d give him. He should be just as vulnerable as a caster class, in my opinion. He should be more hesitant when contemplating whether to attack the two fully outfitted elite warriors he is stalking. He knows that he has to move in and hit hard and fast, and move out quickly, or he will be overwhelmed by them. There may be a way, but it won’t be easy. This goes back to having to be smart and know your class, along with its limitations, if you are to survive as an assassin.

 

6. Elite skills: Now this is a hard one. I can’t figure it out yet. As you can see, I’m not cool with invisibility or teleportation, though. Maybe a more elite type of bomb or poison? Or how about disguises? Let’s say we give the assassin the ability to disguise himself as one of the local NPCs or PVP opponents? How about 20-30 seconds? If that’s too much, we could lower the duration, and increase the cooldown. This would give the assassin the opportunity to pull off some legendary ambushes in both PVE and PVP (I can already imagine the youtube videos flooding the internet). It was fun as heck when a spy did this in Team Fortress 2, and all the players (even the non-spy players) seemed to like it. Any other ideas?

 

This is just me throwing out some stuff. Like I said above, I’m trying to get away from the whole ninja style rogue, as I think that is a class/profession in itself. And I’m not sure that I want to see ninjas in GW2. Look, I know that there will be players that will try to RP as ninjas, but who cares? That’s their prerogative. I just don’t want to see an actual class or profession that almost fully resembles one from the get go.

 

Thoughts?

NoEndInLife

Assassins are not OP at all in GW1. They're easy to take down honestly.

People hate them because of the fact that many douchebags play that class. Plus, it's never fun being jumped by a assassin although in reality assassins are meant for jumping other players. After all they are called assassins for a reason.

Imho assassins are one of the coolest classes in any mmo. To come out of nowhere, and kill the guy; to basically assassinate someone is pretty cool.

I think they should keep shadowstep as one of the Assassin's core mechanic. Stealth is honestly annoying and not really fun. Shadowstepping requires more skill imho.

Players need to know when's the right time to shadowstep to the target and use all your moves to take down the guy.

Assassin's can be countered easily as once you break the attack chain they have nothing else. From there you just proceed onward with a couple of spells/attacks and you finish the assassin.

As for assassins wearing cloth, I have to agree with you. But the only prob with that is in GW2 scholars wear light armor, adventurers wear medium armor and soldiers wear heavy armor. I see no possibility of assassin becoming a scholar class. Even tho it would make sense, I'm pretty sure everyone knows the third slot of scholars is reserved for mesmer

Besides, in GW1 assassins actually wear some armor and leather.

http://wiki.guildwars.com/wiki/File:Assassin_Monument_armor_m_dyed_front.png

http://wiki.guildwars.com/wiki/File:Assassin_Asuran_armor_m_dyed_front.png

http://wiki.guildwars.com/wiki/File:Assassin_Elite_Canthan_armor_m_dyed_front.jpg

and there's more.

So yeah, I believe assassins should stay with shadowstepping and attack chains just at a controlled level(Don't make it too OP). Just get rid of the hex spells and enchantment spells and instead give them skills such as things to do with caltrops, poison, gas, etc.

Swanea

I do wonder if GW2 will even have an assassin class.  If you check out the video showing the Necromancer and his death thingy, he seems to gain abilities similar to the assassin.

I wonder if they took most of the abilities from the classes not being added, and put them in with the classes in game.

emikochan

Ninjas don't have magic, Naruto isn't the acid-test for ninjas =p More like.. Shogun Assassin

 

Otherwise, good points, I like the light and dark stealth (AoC had this also) but what about people with weak computers that have to turn lighting off.. Abusing the day/night cycle would be interesting, though could end up being frustrating for non-assassins that want to play after sundown.

 

I think Assassins have slowly gained magical abilities due to rogues in pnp DnD starting with "use magic device" which eventually ended up getting exploited horribly by PCs then blown out of proportion by games devs =p (although ninja "tools" like smoke bombs letting you basically be invisible for the duration, tripwires and caltrops for some control, poisons, disguises I heartily agree with)

 

I'd imagine if you could hit someone with haluccination poison you'd get access to new abilities based on their warped perception of you.. that would be interesting

 

The main important thing, is to make Assassins play differently to every other class. (I doubt this bit would be too hard with half of these ideas..) I think they'll have a lot more combination attacks and attacks that take advantage of conditions than Warriors. (What will their unique mechanic be? Like adrenaline / attunements / soul energy / pets)

 

On elite skills, i'd say something like a Dark Cloak that lets them evade attacks / increase speed / strike back from unexpected angles (imagine it fluttering out and covering the targets entire vision. new "DarkStep" abilities - though may be too close to necromancer form...)

Neve played an assassin in GW1 so I don't know what elites they had to compare =p

I know you don't like magical stuff but Ascalon is pretty magic heavy ^_^;;

Noxulus

You make some good points, but i don't agree with them all. I'm just looking to get some discussion going andmean no disrespect. You can't really formulate a fair opinion of the Assassin class in GW1 from hearsay as the majority of views expressed are going to be from people that have been at the receiving end of a beatdown and don't understand the mechanics of it, or how to counter it. I immense

ly like the pvp in gw1 because of how fair it is, every skill and build can be countered. Now this isn't to say at some point or another Assassins weren't OP due to skill changes but the same can be said of every class.

1. Try to think of it this way, a skill that isn't magical is natural. Now defining the difference between the magical and the natural when it comes to a fantasy MMO should be at the discretion of the developers, in my opinion. In guild wars 1 there was quite a strong link between classes and their patron gods. A snip from the gw wiki:

 

Patronage

Balthazar: Command & Spear Paragons, Fire Elementalists, Scythe Dervishes, Protection & Smiting Monks, and Warriors.

Dwayna: Air Elementalists, Divine Favor & Healing Monks, Leadership & Motivation Paragons, and Wind Dervishes.

Grenth: Assassins, Necromancers, Ritualists, and Water Elementalists.

Melandru: Earth Dervishes, Earth Elementalists, and Rangers.

Lyssa: Assassins, Energy Storage Elementalists, Mysticism Dervishes, and Mesmers.

 

This helps me rationalise how Assassins can have the ability to teleport about the place and such. I know that as a pseudo-melee class whether they SHOULD be able to use the magic skills or not . As for invisibility there was no skill in GW1 that gave anyone invisibility (or stealth) which is a move in the right direction I believe.

 

2. I think this comes comes to personal preference again, and what you expect of each class. This doesn't matter though as it comes down to your skill selection and what you're built to be doing at least in regards to guild wars.

 

-As an observation you seem to switch from talking about how classes were in guild wars/ddo/wow to the classes in general. I think it's best to base your opinions on the GW Assassin as the GW2 Sin will undoubtedly be his successor.-

 

I think guild wars handled critical hits well. basically Assassins had an attribute that increased their chance of gaining critical hits, and rewarded energy for them. Now that's not to say that warriors couldn't also gain critical hits, some skills guaranteed it in fact, but they instead had the unique ability to increase a strength attribute and gain armour penetration, which again makes sense to me.

 

3. Toe to toe only a foolish Assassin would try to win on brute strength as obviously a warrior has him outmatched, however what's to stop him from throwing dirt  into the warriors eyes, darting around him slashing for tendons and disarming the warrior with a deft flick of his dagger. Follow this up with a poison to cripple, or weaken and you can dance around the poor tin giant poking scores upon scores of holes in his nice shiny armour. Okay i'm a bit biased, but i think it comes down to your BUILD again, GW/GW2 are built upon a Trading Card mentality - that is to say you can only have a certain number of skills active in combat at any one time. A warrior with a build that specialises in resisting elemental damage may not have much of a chance against an assassin with a build tailored to take him out specifically, but i'm sure that a warrior can put together a build designed to cleave an Assassin in twain.

 

4. I agree with you when it comes to stealth, i think WoW handled it poorly. I don't think we'll be seeing it in GW2 as it wasn't in GW1 but if we DO see it i'd like for there to be more "spotcheck" scenarios. That is to say at night it should be harder to spot a stealthed Assassin than in the day. I don't think stealth should behave like invisibility and give you a carte blanche to walk around wherever you fancy without fear of anyone becoming any the wiser.  Make it so they have to stick to wooded areas, dark alleys, under a bridge, up a bell tower. I think this would add character to the class, would make it more unique and be a more enjoyable experience for the person playing the Assassin as well as his victim, after all if you wander by yourself down a dark alleyway what can you expect! 

 

5. I'm not sure what to think of armour, i agree that there should be limitations but they should come with class specific benefits, like extra evasion. Or make it so that certain equipment is limited to your armour type. For instance you COULD wear armour that offers more physical protection but it means you have no where to store your throwing knives, smoke bombs, poison vials and such.

 

6. I don't really know about elite skills either, but i found this on the official website:

 

"Elite skills are designed to be infrequently-used, ultra-powerful skills that have a dramatic impact on the game. An elementalist can call upon the power of the wind to shapeshift into a tornado that knocks enemies around and inflicts heavy damage, while a warrior might choose to harness the power of Destruction, to make all of his blows inflict area-of-effect damage."

 

What i'd like to see for the assassin with this in mind would be a skill that gives a short period of extreme evasion, or increased chance to critical hit.  Maybe just a skill where you can run up to your target and unleash a devastating combo of skills that have you rolling around the enemy to stab them in the back, leaping over them and such. I don't know! But i'm sure that there will be a -lot- of variety just as there was in GW1 with a skill to please every player, and build!

 

Hope there's some food for thought there.

OmgZombies

I really hope for a faster, more "honorable" (no ball-taps, eye gouges) pure DPS melee character that isn't an assassin.  They don't have any form of stealth, have low armor, dual-wield, and use speed to stay alive rather than an invisibility skill or other cheap tactics.

You'd have to rely on running speed as a form of stealth in pvp, assuming you can't see enemies on the minimap.  And they would seem a lot more balanced for 1v1s, since they wouldn't be about stun locking.  

Smart use of character's speed seems a lot more fun and rewarding than poisons and stunlocks.

(If anyone's played TF2, I'm basicly referring to the scout in a Scout to some extent)

42352fr3

I played assassin and mesmer (I’m evil) most of the time in GW1. I started with GW Factions because of the sin profession.



First and foremost, sins in GW1 are really a PvP profession. Sins lose some usefulness in PvE. They are put in the middle of the battle, and put out more damage than warriors, but don't have the survivability of rangers.



Sins were OP in PvP for a moment after Nightfall released with Shadow Prison, but that was eventually balanced out, as well as most of the other shadow-step skills. With that said, any player who still complains about sins in GW1 isn't a good player.



In GW1, the sin is all about preparation and execution. Most players nowadays have at least some sort of defense for sins whether it is an interrupt, knockdown, blind, snare, block, etc. If I come upon a player who doesn't have one of those, he's dead, period.



It's a sins job to break through a targets defenses, and execute his attack-chain before the target can rebuild those defenses. As long as this stays the same in GW2 I’ll be happy. I'll be disappointed if it becomes all about stealth and hiding.



I like the fact that sins have magic. A GW1 sin is a jack-of-all-trades. They have attacks, snares, hexes, enchantments, stances, signets, etc.. Sins can adapt to kill almost any target. Although rangers are very versatile, sins are versatile to only one goal, killing a target as fast as possible.



Every class in GW1 can easily snare and kite, sins included, so shadow-steps helped a lot. I don't care if they are removed, but sins still need a way to get close to targets, because they won't beat other professions at range without secondary professions, and don't have the survivability of other classes.



Stealth was never important in GW1. I think sins as more like snipers. They don't necessarily need to be stealthy, they just have to pick the right time to strike. A sniper just needs to find an elementalist casting meteor shower.



I think medium armor is fine, but I don't care either way.



I would like to see speed and condition based elite skills.

Lord.Bachus

My best guess is still that there will not be a true assasin but a more rogueish class in Guildwars 2, which would actually be more of a support class then a full DPS class.

Loke666

I played an Assassin in GW1 but I wouldn't call them OP. There is no regular stealth like in most MMOs even if they have a few other irritating skills, but basically were they pretty ok balanced. My ranger kicked a lot harder than my assassin.

But the GW1 assassin was a ninja and the lore of Tyria is very different from the one in Kantha so I don't think we will see the same type of assassin anyways. We will see some kind of rogue instead I think but until we have more info about it saying that it needs changes is kinda pointless.

Still, get the first GW anyways, it costs very little and will help you learn a lot of the world and about ANET. It also still have the best Arenas PvP out there.

Lord.Bachus

Originally posted by Loke666

I played an Assassin in GW2 but I wouldn't call them OP. 

So its confirmed 

 

 

 

<smiles> Sorry, just had to try and be funny

djazzy

Originally posted by Lord.Bachus

Originally posted by Loke666

I played an Assassin in GW2 but I wouldn't call them OP. 

So its confirmed 

 

 

 

Sorry, just had to try and be funny

hehe

I want the assassin to be like Altair or Ezio.

Well only if we could scale walls and jump from building to building like them too.

 

rbc13183

Originally posted by arenasb

hehe

I want the assassin to be like Altair or Ezio.

Well only if we could scale walls and jump from building to building like them too.

 

 

 

Yeah. We can only dream....

Loke666

Originally posted by Lord.Bachus

Originally posted by Loke666

I played an Assassin in GW2 but I wouldn't call them OP. 

So its confirmed 

Sorry, just had to try and be funny

Doh, I meant GW1, I was tired.

 

Hunterhyena

What is with you people and thiking there will be DPSs Healers and the works. Anet already said that every profession could play any role.

rbc13183

Originally posted by Swanea

I do wonder if GW2 will even have an assassin class.  If you check out the video showing the Necromancer and his death thingy, he seems to gain abilities similar to the assassin.

I wonder if they took most of the abilities from the classes not being added, and put them in with the classes in game.

I know my thread is a little old now, but I just noticed this post. The only way this would work for me is if the warrior or ranger had skills that would lend towards an "assassinish" playstyle. Then I would just dress them up in medium leather armor and use them for that role. I GUESS that would be okay, but I admit that I'd be a little disappointed.

I'd prefer a class that is devoted to this archetype, as it would satisfy alot of people's longings...

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