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GWs 2 WvWvW an evolution of DAoC ? What should an evolution look like?
deviliscious
Member UncommonPosts: 4,359
So when Arena net describes their WvWvW pvp combat like this:
I think Dynamic Events is the thing that will do that. That is the glue in the bond that brings the players together. I think that will give you recognition when you start to build that sense of community. The other thing that I think is important and this is not a direct answer, but we have World vs. World PvP in Guild Wars 2. I think that will impact PvE as well. Which is your server shard matched up against two other servers in open world PvP. If you like Dark Age of Camelot, this is, in our minds the next evolution of that. It is something that really drove community and you care about what you are doing on a PVE and PvP side. You care about the people on the server. We think we will have those bonds because your server is matched up against two other servers. So it is just that much more important that you become friends and you bond with the players on your server. So the friends you make through PvE and Dynamic Events, those friends will carry over into World vs. World PvP. You may get out of World vs. World PvP and go back to early zones to do events with new people and help encourage them to join you in the fight for your server to take part in battles and beat the other two. We expect large strong communities on each server and I think PvP will end up affecting PvE because people will work together
What exactly should that mean in terms of " an evolution"? What would you consider to be the evolvolution of DAoC combat? What would expectations be for this to be considered " evolved"?
Comments
I like it, brings back the server pride that was long lost since WoW implemented cross-server BG's. Now maybe people would stop bickering over stupid things on the same server, and start trash talking other servers. Wishful thinking, but who knows we'll see how it works out. I do like the concept.
EQ1-AC1-DAOC-FFXI-L2-EQ2-WoW-DDO-GW-LoTR-VG-WAR-GW2-ESO
Hard to tell exactly what he's getting at in terms of 'evolution', but at it's most basic level changing from RvRvR on one server to SvSvS is something of an evolution in mechanical terms at least.
Traditionally you would have realm pride contained on a server and at the same time 'get to know' prominent people/guilds from other realms building up a picture of the server community as a whole. With GW2 it looks that whilst this will obviously occur, throwing in the extra dimension of server v server conflicts will see an evolution in how individual servers communities interact in order to compete cross server so to speak.
The dymamic events system should in theory further push how a community works together (or doesn't) in that actions ig will have ig consequences, unlike in traditional 'rinse and repeat' quest line based mmos.
"Come and have a look at what you could have won."
An evolution it is, a superior one .... we shall see.
"Society in every state is a blessing, but government even in its best state is but a necessary evil; in its worst state an intolerable one ..." - Thomas Paine
What I really want to know is what about DAoC combat that people enjoyed and what did they dislike that would need improvement? I would expect an " evolution" to mean to take the good from the game and change the bad to make it better to create an "evolved game." So what are the pros' cons to DAoC combat? And how could it be improved to become an " evolved" system?
Go here http://www.gdcvault.com/play/1013691/Designing-Guild-Wars-2-Dynamic
You can skip to the Q&A section if you want or you can watch the whole thing (I warn you its both very elightning/ interesting and long) but it is in the Q&A section that you find a tid bit where Eric talks about W v W and how they have sort of integrated events into that making objectives for not just the 10-man mob but the one man army as well.
He doesn't go into intricate detail but it gives you an idea of this "evolution" Colin is talking about.
This is not a game.
That is what Arena Net is telling us it is, What I want to know is from DAoC fans what our expectations should be from an " evolved DAoC " LOL. Thanks for the vid though. Good stuff!
Is why I am posting this in the Pub, instead of just asking Guild wars fans. I want to hear from DAoC fans!
Tbh, it seemed like he was mentioning DAoC as a general example of what they are looking to achieve, not so much as proffering it as an exact approximation that they would be building upon. They will be taking the idea of realm pride and extending that to server pride.
"Come and have a look at what you could have won."
I understand all that, I would like to have players tell me what they enjoyed/ disliked about DAoC's system to have a better gage of how this should work as an evolved system. What the DAoC fans would expect to see from an evolved systm.. Not what guild wars interpretation of that may be..
* is doing further investigation* LOL
Well daoc make maasive fight viable via massive CC , its needed simple as that. (Allows a smaller group to defeat a larger group).
Tower / keep fights. (ladders good/ ramps bad) Keeps are good when there are places on them to attack the incoming enemies (and easily move 3 feet to be more or less safe from attack). With this if like daoc ramps up to these places make range useless and doesn't provide protection to those on top if it has destructable walls. (So choak/defencable points are good).
I really think what made New fronteirs so weak vs old, was not its towers etc. IT was simply the fact that the area was TOO LARGE. You need your pvp open area the right size to allow some roam but be more zerg in mind and purpose. Whent he are is small one 8 man group will just get dominated (smaller area = higher chances to run into / get caught by the zerg). So small areas > large areas.
Another thing that made daoc pvp so good what casters/ range are weak to melee , melee is weak to caster (range based) and healers are weak to everything but very strong in groups. While some poeple may agree i feel realm vs realm class blaance was very solid. (hib has so many stuns. alb just a ton of op classes, mid tons of hard hitters and best main healer).
Overall, what made wit work was 3 sides. alb was most often high pop (oddly becuase they easily had the worst pve experince imho). But in pvp if you had one side with higher pop, this means they get attacked most (just by random chance more group = more chance to encounter enemies). Also the two sides may group up aginst the larger side, (kinda like a unsaid we gonna take them out, deal). Or sometimes the two small side fight each other and avoid the large side (large side gets board after not fighting anyone for a few days and roles toons on other realms to have more fights [get more kills]). This is the basis for daoc success, with one last thing; pvp and pve was seperate in most cases so you didn't have to be ganked 24/7 trying to level.
"Society in every state is a blessing, but government even in its best state is but a necessary evil; in its worst state an intolerable one ..." - Thomas Paine
DAOC was about realm pride, one realm vs another realm vs another realm. What GW2 is going to do is to expand on that idea, but make it one server vs another server vs another server. Their reasoning is for that a whole server can bond together the way realms did in DAOC. And because a whole server would bond together for PvP, they may do so for PvE as well because the endgame goal is for your server to compete well against others.
In DAOC's sense, it was to make one realm compete well against aother realm. People worked hard in PvE to level up so we could put more lvl 50's out onto the RvR field back in the days. GW2 is trying to capture that same idea, same feeling, but expand it for the whole server instead of separate realms.
EQ1-AC1-DAOC-FFXI-L2-EQ2-WoW-DDO-GW-LoTR-VG-WAR-GW2-ESO
So basically the guilds on one server would unite to fight the other servers. I can see this being a good thing, In my expiernces with pvp on a massive scale, we often had the issue of our guild being much larger than other guilds, so we couldn;t really make it a fair fight unless we made our members " sit out". Otherwise we just crushed everyone.
I can see that allowing all the guilds to fight together against the other servers guilds would really help even that out, and also allow most all to be able to join the fight, even if they were not associated with a guild. It would allow the smaller groups and individual players to have access to all content, rather than just having the " exclusive guilds" take all for themselves. Looks like it is going to be fun.
Having been in a guild that " ruled all" and being hated by many for it, it will be a nice change not have to deal with that aspect of large scale pvp. there was no challenge in being in that large of a guild.. I actually would make alts and not associate my other accs with them and play on them just to be challenged. LOL
True to an extent perhaps. Many people don't like to be on the receiving end of a gank, and large guilds (that are well organised) will always monopolise ther server they are on. However as someone who has lead small, invite only pvp guilds that have never had more then 20 members, I can attest that there are indeed guilds out there who have no qualms about being on the same server as much larger guilds.
It's horses for courses really, but as you say, the GW2 system (seems to be) set up to make this far less of an issue for those that are overly concerned about it.
"Come and have a look at what you could have won."
Yea, being one of those 600 member guilds that controlled everything, I also see how the game loses it's challenge when it becomes too easy because of it. Sure the player hate was bad enough, but the overall gameplay lost it's challenge. You no longer have to do anything for yourself, you have players that do that for you. There is no challenge in combat, because even if you do get killed , your guild gets your stuff and returns it to you.. even if you die, they still kill whoever killed you.. There was no risk, no challenge left in the game.
In any popular well populated game where you have the ability to have large scale combat, it should be an issue, otherwise large guilds will just dominate everyone else. Yea the path to domination is fun, I will not deny that, but once you get there.. it is really kind of boring LOL
If it favors a system like daoc 8man gank guilds, than I am happy.
East Carolina University, Computer Science BS, 2011
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Current game: DAOC
Games played and quit: L2, PlanetSide, RF Online, GuildWars, SWG, COH/COV, Vanguard, LOTRO, WoW, WW2 Online, FFXI, Auto-Assault, EVE Online, ShadowBane, RYL, Rappelz, Last Chaos, Myst Online, POTBS, EQ2, Warhammer Online, AoC, Aion, Champions Online, Star Trek Online, Allods, Darkfall.
Waiting on: Earthrise
Names: Citio, Goldie, Sportacus
Some really good responses in this thread, especially explaining DAoC.
When I played DAoC, I was in an extremely small guild, but part of the largest alliance on the Hib side of our server. During nights out in Emain, especially during Relic attempts, our guild was sent out as flankers while the main force moved en masse.
Basically, since we ran an 8 man gank group and were mobile and free of the main force, we were able to harrass enemies as they either moved to support a keep take or moved to support those running with a relic. While, we didn't always win, we did succeed in slowing down enemy forces so that either the main force could catch them or so that they would arrive late to a keep take.
It was really neat, especially as a Nightshade (rogue). We used the environment to hide our movements, then our stealth would move out to scout around. We'd find a group and the rest would come in on bard speed and whatever happened happened.
Realm pride was also very much present. PvE was more cooperative since we were all moving towards the same end, RvR, thus you'd have higher levels helping lower levels on their "epic" quest chains so they could get their epic gear (pre-enchanting). Often times finding groups was easy because there was always someone running something. If you were leveling in the frontier and got ganked, you could almost always count on one of your patrolling gank squads to make passes around you more often to try and protect you as well.
This is all from pre-ToA experiences. I left DAoC before new frontiers, so I am unsure how things changed. However, classic DAoC was a blast. I'm hoping for a similar experience with GW, except with Server Pride.
All I can say is...it's about damn time someone took the best PvP experience and expanded on it. You would have thought Mythic would have made Warhammer Online be DAoC2 with a Warhammer Skin...Thats what all of us DAoC vets thought they would do anyway. 3 or more factions, in the case of GW2 servers, make for less predictable PvP play. You really dont know when or where something will pop off, or if the other 2 factions are tired of getting thrashed by you and decide to team up to take you down.
What I want to see repeated from DAoC is:
- Massive battles
- massive battles over objectives with purpose
- Keeps fights
- Realm Pride, in this case server pride, where guilds band together in PvE, and PvP to rise above all opposition.
- bonuses for taking objectives (relics in DAoC)
- Realm Ranks, of some sort distinguishing you from others on the battlefield.
- guild/server guards and lords to help protect overtaken keeps.
- opposing factions lose status, bonuses, or access to certain places in PvE and PvP for losing, territory, keeps, towers, etc
What I would like to see evolved:
- Realm sense of responsibility; meaning that keep the economy under control, if you turn a profit for what you craft or loot, then great, but don't rob your fellow server mate who is trying to improve themself, to help your server in besting the others, don't be so greedy.
- keep the economics under control
- Assist lower level players with quests, questions, and anything else you can spare, you never know when the favor will be returned by way of your butt being saved
or if you will be the one that makes the difference in that persons decision to stick with GW2 and be the best they can be.
- Keep fights, completely destructuble and rebuildable keeps, having to farm and get resources to craft or refine into materials to rebuild keeps, towers, walls (mid field border gates) this will also bring the community together.
- heraldry not just for the guild but preset for the server, so that when an objective is taken, in the collaborated server area (where all 3 servers meet for SvSvS) it is raised to gain that sense fo server pride as a visual que of accomplishment.
- More than just a few keeps to be taken over or fought for, add towers, midfield gates, stratgic points of interest, destrucable/rebuildable buildings that can be raised anywhere we see fit in the realm, once something is destroyed, we can rebuild it elsewhere, to maybe make its defense stronger up agaisnt a mountain side or surrounded by water etc...and don't say it can't be done, because it can
- No difference between PvE gear and PvP gear, wear the same stuff....seriously, this takes away the focus from the grind, and puts it back on the goal of kicking the other teams face in and having fun while doing it. Im not saying dont have PvP rewards, what Im saying is dont balance them any different than PvE gear or rewards.
- in the above, make the PvP and PvE more seemless, integrate PvE into PvP and vice versa, i.e. DARKNESS FALLS expac
do this for more of the game, throughout the world, and not just high level, lower level as well.
- more focus on lower level PvP, ways for the beginners to truly help out and make a difference while leveling up and contributing to thier server.
- I beleive in going Server vs Server vs Server, the PvP will be more balanced, as you will have all the same classes and races available to all the sides, therefore it will be more managable.
- less focus on CC, more focus on actually fighting, extending fights to make them more meaningful.
- real seige weapons, rams, catapults, ballistas etc like in Warhammer Online, only not stationary pads for placement, let us place them where we want, for more meaningful and realistic battles.
- all siege materials craftable, bringing the dedicated crafters purpose more so then just that of being an armory.
- truly upgradeable keeps, adding ballistas, and catapults etc..to towers and keeps, as the keeps go through upgrades based on materials, time defended (held by one server), etc...
- opposing factions lose status or bonuses for losing, territory, keeps, towers, etc
- Fight for resources, think in terms of RTS and having to get tin, copper, gold, ore, wood, etc, but some of these nodes would only be found on RvR, and some of these materials made form these nodes are used to upgrade/rebuild keeps, towers, siege weapons.
Now I know 99% of this will never get into GW2 or any other game besides Legacy:Quest for the Throne, but its this complication that will bring true team work and that sense of pride to a server when you stand back and look at the field and see your guilds banner waved over the keep you just built after fight for 3 hours to take it and all of its surrounding resources, towers, and midfield objectives. When you open up your map, you should always see the territory boundries change like a game of RISK...
GW2s combat comes from GW1
How does GW2 WvWvW improve DAoC's RvR.
- New server pairings every or every 2 weeks. which makes short time goals easier to archeive.
- Next to castles they also added resource nodes little towns and caravans that are important for the tactical advancement.
- managing your lands in in WvWvW will be like playing a RTS but without one man at the reigns, but where all the individual actions count, this requires even more server cooperation then in DAoC and will add a lot to the community.
-There will be small large and huge tasks for effective PvP, you could even solo an ennemy caravan if there is only NPC protection.
-There should be an awesome seige enigne system which will make crafters feel usefull.
-There will be a lot of crowd controll in PvP and that without specific crowd controll classes. Crowd controll rules the flow of combat and adss a lot of tactics to the game
Tough in DAoC there where also flaws at release like ballance and no personal goals.
Adding personal goals was very important to me, it gave me the feeling of advancement through PvP, DAoC added realmpoints to sattisfy me. It was a great system.... and it was very important for many people that gave them a feeling of still being able to advance their characters at max level was awesome and worked much better then the WoW system where one could only advance thorugh gear at max level.
Since in GW2 PvE and PvP are both important they should add ann AA system that can be advanced in both PvE and PvP. And becausefrom all stuff we allready know we have seen that Arena net must have noticed the imprtance of such a system too, so i am allmost sure they will add an AA system after release. (no need of investing time before release as this becomes only rel;evant at max level)
I am also sure
Best MMO experiences : EQ(PvE), DAoC(PvP), WoW(total package) LOTRO (worldfeel) GW2 (Artstyle and animations and worlddesign) SWTOR (Story immersion) TSW (story) ESO (character advancement)
Good question.
Short Answer: They are pointing out that they are creating a system that uses DAOC as a legacy that players have wanted from MMOs but few have delivered (Why is a complete mystery!). That itself is an evolution, imo.
eg 3-Factions => Evolution
1. Matching changes every 1/2 weeks. Goals, enemy, balance of war can be reshuffled and re-timed again.
2. 3-servers should strengthen helping lower lvl players in PvE in DEs to be useful in WvWvW PvP.
3. Also 8 professions spread over 3 factions should allow better balancing I'd expect.
eg RvR Battle-grounds => Evolution
1. Battles are in the Mists => Should allow players flexibility with server options
2. Should allow same persistent technology to support '00's of players in area with reduced lag/higher performance and population cap is not expected to be reached; similar to Dynamic events large numbers are "envouraged"
3. BO's are divided into Large/Medium/Small for armies, groups and solo's so there is diversity and always options for players. RTS elements are included on the map and maybe even mass underwater combat is possible, maybe? xD Full inclusion of sieging of keeps.
eg RvR Realm Pride => Evolution
1. Guilds should have server-wide fame for their contribution to the server.
2. All guilds will be "pulling together" on the same server.
3. WvWvW will be a blooding ground for casual PvPers to move closer to Structured PvP competitions.
A few ideas why/how I see Guild Wars 2: WvWvW being a really good system. It's not a big leap, especially as few MMOs seem to have wanted to take the RvRvR torch from DAOC!?
http://www.gdcvault.com/play/1014633/Classic-Game-Postmortem
Reading Ragnaur23's very nice post, and especially the part where he talks about Server Responsibility, I started thinking about the easy way to transfer Servers might ruin that. Healping other people is nice, but a lot of people might think, "Why should i help that guy? He'll probably just transfer to another server, so i'dd be helping the other server".
What do you guys think? I really love the concept of DAoCish PvP, but im worried that the way server transfers work, will Prevent this sense of Camaraderie. Of course we dont know the details of the server transfer system, and this might just be random ramblings from an idiot who thinks things through too much, but Server Hopping is a fact in a lot of MMO's...
SteamID: Sertii
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No-one's too sure about the details of Server Transfers, until they reveal it (as per their schedule).
I think as you point out, some players will want to play WvWvW especially to play with your friends on different servers.
For WvWvW PvP (World PvP), I think you can still transfer and play for the other servers, but your account is still tied to your original server and your contribution or some system may limit your influence when playing for another server and only contribute when you re-join your orginal server, so you only harvest your own server's success in PvP or not. I think this may be how it works, though <50% sure on that ; )
Edit: Confirmed time-limit on subsequent transfers being made after a transfer.
http://www.gdcvault.com/play/1014633/Classic-Game-Postmortem
Yeah someone else mentioned the Base Realms system, but afaik, that is just speculation, as i have searched for all of the different Dev Anouncements and found nothing official on that. I am aware that transfering will only be available at a certain time, but we do not know how often that will be, and i also dont know if there will be a specific time limit between transfering, so depending on that.... meh, we'll see.
Anyway, I was just pointing out my one and only worry concerning the succes of this incredibly looking game, and i wanted to know what you guys thought.
Peace
SteamID: Sertii
Help spread PC gaming dominance, sign up on Steam!
Realm Pride...
In DAoC there was a mechanic, where you couldn´t make a toon in Faction B, if you already had a character in Faction A on the same server. So you couln´t change sides like in WoW. It helped to generate realm pride.
The biggest killer of Realm Pride was still working in DAoC: Guilds
You're right, think that is some speculation, I came across. The timing-limit is concrete, but guess they are still working out the details for this. Definitely flexibility for players is ArenaNet's core design ideal, so the "door is open", and wonder how they will regulate it? A bouncer?! ; )
Interestingly, the OP quote is from Game Designer Colin Johanson, who used to work at Mythic pre-DAOC...
http://www.gdcvault.com/play/1014633/Classic-Game-Postmortem
Damn this thread makes me so hyped up!!!
I just cant wait to enter W v W v W (seriously create some better name, this is so slow to type down:D ), draw my axe and shield and cry out loud "for KRYTAAA!!!!" [possible server name], charging on the enemy army while being covered by riflemans and siege weapons...damn I want that! NOW! :'(
I so want to sneak at night hours and recapture that mine with my fellas so next day the other side yells "who the hell forgot to patrol there!!!"
I want to defend our hold with with the other last standing shouting for help
I want to celebrate the victory with my comrades, doing crazy emotes and throwing confety in the air!!!
I want to have troll and flame wars on official forum about the best shard and noobs in the other ones:D
Maan I got myself even more hyped!:D
I think I actually spent way more time reading and theorycrafting about MMOs than playing them