RPG? Not really when player skill replaces the character skill.
Going out of subject here but since when has RPG=Character skills? That's just bullshit.
Hell, a lot of the older MMORPGs required much more player-skill than just character skills. Most single player RPGs also involves a lot more player skills than just character skills. It's the mass-market industry that has dumbed down the RPG genre with unimaginative titles that copies one another for the sake of stealing a few subs from the WoW juggernaut.
RPG? Not really when player skill replaces the character skill.
Since when does player skill disqualify a game from being an rpg? This statement makes no sense at all. (Vindictus does indeed have learned character skills btw.)
A good RPG takes a mix of coded skills, gear, and player skill. If it lacks one fraction of any of these it is no longer an RPG but falls under a different genre. If it's missing skills, obviously you don't level to gain anything (leveling can include gaining skill points to spend). If you're lacking gear, there is nothing to run, no enemies to kill, no tokens to gain, no players to kill in which to get this (though crafting is a viable alternative but then the game is about crafting.) Then there's player skill, if the player does not need skill to realize which coded skills to use at what time, and which sets of gear to wear for specific circumstances. You get the idea. A gearless, statless system breaks the tradition of RPG set by the RPG grand-daddy, DnD classic. RPGs can of course evolve so you have to wonder, is this where they will evolve too? If you ask me no, this is more akin to a bastardized version of Guildwars good fun for a quick romp. But for a mainstay game with a high playerbase retained, we'll just have to see after this patch is applied on our beta servers.
RPG? Not really when player skill replaces the character skill.
Going out of subject here but since when has RPG=Character skills? That's just bullshit.
Hell, a lot of the older MMORPGs required much more player-skill than just character skills. Most single player RPGs also involves a lot more player skills than just character skills. It's the mass-market industry that has dumbed down the RPG genre with unimaginative titles that copies one another for the sake of stealing a few subs from the WoW juggernaut.
Sigh. The role playing experience has always been character centric. It is not YOU but the Character YOU play. It is also why stats, experience points, gear and every other major component mesh with resource management to create the GENRE which we call RPG.
This is not to say player skill is void from the mode of play, but rather, is limited to the core of the character skill, not the other way around.
Example: In Fallout 2 if you fired a weapon at an enemy, no matter what you cannot get around the characters skill check vs the enemies skill check. Meaning you the player were limited by how good the character was at aiming also in regards to the enemies stats such as agility or defense.
In fallout 3 on the other hand, the player can aim and shoot "head shots" in real time, the entire component of the character is gone and replaced by the player. The player is not limited by the character skill.
ALL major RPGs of the past, those that have defined the role playing game as a GENRE, HAVE in part followed this rule.
Remember, GENRES are categories that are defined by having certain types of challenges. Challenges are created from rule sets which create limitations. Genre in regards to gameplay components would cease to exist if the consistency and meaning behind what the genres are defined as go missing.
Sigh. The role playing experience has always been character centric. It is not YOU but the Character YOU play. It is also why stats, experience points, gear and every other major component mesh with resource management to create the GENRE which we call RPG.
This is not to say player skill is void from the mode of play, but rather, is limited to the core of the character skill, not the other way around.
The part in red is merely an opinion, not a fact. Wether or not the game requires player skills does not determine wether it is an RPG or not. It's complete rubbish.
Look at TES:Morrowind/Oblivion, Demon Soul, Monster Hunter, etc. These are (A-)RPGs, yet they offer a different gameplay experience that does not rely on a simple Dice Roll. They require more involvement from the player throughout the experience, but remain limited by the boundaries set by the Character's abilities, skills and levels. They are simply more action oriented RPGs, and the same applies to Vindictus.
And if you haven't played Vindictus yet, and I believe you haven't given what you wrote, Vindictus features Stats, Experience Points, Gear, and many other "major component mesh with ressource management" as you call them. The only difference lies in the gameplay experience which is more action-oriented and skill-based compared to your typical MMORPG. (Although Vindictus is more of an MORPG than an MMORPG), but then again, look at DarkFall or Mortal Online, both real MMORPG where player skills determines the outcome of a battle.
Sigh. The role playing experience has always been character centric. It is not YOU but the Character YOU play. It is also why stats, experience points, gear and every other major component mesh with resource management to create the GENRE which we call RPG.
This is not to say player skill is void from the mode of play, but rather, is limited to the core of the character skill, not the other way around.
The part in red is merely an opinion, not a fact. Wether or not the game requires player skills does not determine wether it is an RPG or not. It's complete rubbish.
Look at TES:Morrowind/Oblivion, Demon Soul, Monster Hunter, etc. These are (A-)RPGs, yet they offer a different gameplay experience that does not rely on a simple Dice Roll. They require more involvement from the player throughout the experience, but remain limited by the boundaries set by the Character's abilities, skills and levels. They are simply more action oriented RPGs, and the same applies to Vindictus.
And if you haven't played Vindictus yet, and I believe you haven't given what you wrote, Vindictus features Stats, Experience Points, Gear, and many other "major component mesh with ressource management" as you call them. The only difference lies in the gameplay experience which is more action-oriented and skill-based compared to your typical MMORPG. (Although Vindictus is more of an MORPG than an MMORPG), but then again, look at DarkFall or Mortal Online, both real MMORPG where player skills determines the outcome of a battle.
Rubbish? I think not.
The claim for subjective arguments can be made often, but instead of just say "you are wrong", let me elaborate. First, ask yourself these three questions. What is the most important element, rather, requirement for a video game to exist as a video game? Second, ask yourself what the difference is between a RPG and an Action game in regards to Genres? Finally, define what a genre is, and why they are given to certain games (in addition, their origin)?
The answer to the first question is... Interactivity. You cannot have a video game without it. It is interactive entertainment, this means there has to be (HAS TO BE) player feedback, both for initiation and continuation. This means, that no matter what, there will be some level of player skill and or feedback (luck) present in a video game (varying degrees). This is a common factor in all games. So, if this is true...how are genres defining and separating the differences in this common factor?
What defines genres? Challenges. Challenges are many fold, from resource management to sense based (reaction) challenges... They are created by rule sets and the limitations from those rule sets. This isnt opinion, this is more or less factual. So in order to separate games by genres, the challenges and elements (mods of play) have to be categorized.
For RPGs, the primary focus on character skill (playing role of said PC) restricts, limits, and essentially creates the challenge found in RPGS, the player whose skill is limited to the character. Player feedback, the level of skill will always be part of the game (requirement), but the challenge created for a RPG to truly exist is mostly reliant on how limited the player skill is when it comes to the character.
You mention Dice Rolls. Lets really call it for what it is. Random Number Generator. Fact: most computer games will make use of that function at one point or another. You might think the dice rolling from the pen and paper days was dumb. but it is an important aspect of video game programming (the purpose it served). Just some food for thought.
As for Vindictus, the only time I played it was at E3. From the perspective of Game Design, I cannot completely call it a RPG. Its more of an action game with rpg elements. The legend of Zelda is no different.
You mention Morrowind and Oblivion. They are completely different. Morrowind WAS a RPG. Why? You could swing at an enemy, and it doesnt actually mean you would "hit it". You could stand there swinging at an enemy all day long, even if they were right in front of you, and still miss. This is important. IN Oblivion, they did the opposite. Its hit box based, you swing, if the weapon hits them, regardless of your characters skill with that weapon, the enemy would be hit. Oblivion became an ACTION game with RPG elements.
I am not suggesting its so black and white, there can be shades of grey when it comes to minor design choices, but when it becomes major, then the challenges change and thus the genre changes. I am not here bashing Vindictus, but rather making a few neutral observations for the product (emphasis on product) aimed primarily at the asian PC Cafe audience. This is important.
Comments
Going out of subject here but since when has RPG=Character skills? That's just bullshit.
Hell, a lot of the older MMORPGs required much more player-skill than just character skills. Most single player RPGs also involves a lot more player skills than just character skills. It's the mass-market industry that has dumbed down the RPG genre with unimaginative titles that copies one another for the sake of stealing a few subs from the WoW juggernaut.
Since when does player skill disqualify a game from being an rpg? This statement makes no sense at all. (Vindictus does indeed have learned character skills btw.)
A good RPG takes a mix of coded skills, gear, and player skill. If it lacks one fraction of any of these it is no longer an RPG but falls under a different genre. If it's missing skills, obviously you don't level to gain anything (leveling can include gaining skill points to spend). If you're lacking gear, there is nothing to run, no enemies to kill, no tokens to gain, no players to kill in which to get this (though crafting is a viable alternative but then the game is about crafting.) Then there's player skill, if the player does not need skill to realize which coded skills to use at what time, and which sets of gear to wear for specific circumstances. You get the idea. A gearless, statless system breaks the tradition of RPG set by the RPG grand-daddy, DnD classic. RPGs can of course evolve so you have to wonder, is this where they will evolve too? If you ask me no, this is more akin to a bastardized version of Guildwars good fun for a quick romp. But for a mainstay game with a high playerbase retained, we'll just have to see after this patch is applied on our beta servers.
Sigh. The role playing experience has always been character centric. It is not YOU but the Character YOU play. It is also why stats, experience points, gear and every other major component mesh with resource management to create the GENRE which we call RPG.
This is not to say player skill is void from the mode of play, but rather, is limited to the core of the character skill, not the other way around.
Example: In Fallout 2 if you fired a weapon at an enemy, no matter what you cannot get around the characters skill check vs the enemies skill check. Meaning you the player were limited by how good the character was at aiming also in regards to the enemies stats such as agility or defense.
In fallout 3 on the other hand, the player can aim and shoot "head shots" in real time, the entire component of the character is gone and replaced by the player. The player is not limited by the character skill.
ALL major RPGs of the past, those that have defined the role playing game as a GENRE, HAVE in part followed this rule.
Remember, GENRES are categories that are defined by having certain types of challenges. Challenges are created from rule sets which create limitations. Genre in regards to gameplay components would cease to exist if the consistency and meaning behind what the genres are defined as go missing.
The part in red is merely an opinion, not a fact. Wether or not the game requires player skills does not determine wether it is an RPG or not. It's complete rubbish.
Look at TES:Morrowind/Oblivion, Demon Soul, Monster Hunter, etc. These are (A-)RPGs, yet they offer a different gameplay experience that does not rely on a simple Dice Roll. They require more involvement from the player throughout the experience, but remain limited by the boundaries set by the Character's abilities, skills and levels. They are simply more action oriented RPGs, and the same applies to Vindictus.
And if you haven't played Vindictus yet, and I believe you haven't given what you wrote, Vindictus features Stats, Experience Points, Gear, and many other "major component mesh with ressource management" as you call them. The only difference lies in the gameplay experience which is more action-oriented and skill-based compared to your typical MMORPG. (Although Vindictus is more of an MORPG than an MMORPG), but then again, look at DarkFall or Mortal Online, both real MMORPG where player skills determines the outcome of a battle.
Rubbish? I think not.
The claim for subjective arguments can be made often, but instead of just say "you are wrong", let me elaborate. First, ask yourself these three questions. What is the most important element, rather, requirement for a video game to exist as a video game? Second, ask yourself what the difference is between a RPG and an Action game in regards to Genres? Finally, define what a genre is, and why they are given to certain games (in addition, their origin)?
The answer to the first question is... Interactivity. You cannot have a video game without it. It is interactive entertainment, this means there has to be (HAS TO BE) player feedback, both for initiation and continuation. This means, that no matter what, there will be some level of player skill and or feedback (luck) present in a video game (varying degrees). This is a common factor in all games. So, if this is true...how are genres defining and separating the differences in this common factor?
What defines genres? Challenges. Challenges are many fold, from resource management to sense based (reaction) challenges... They are created by rule sets and the limitations from those rule sets. This isnt opinion, this is more or less factual. So in order to separate games by genres, the challenges and elements (mods of play) have to be categorized.
For RPGs, the primary focus on character skill (playing role of said PC) restricts, limits, and essentially creates the challenge found in RPGS, the player whose skill is limited to the character. Player feedback, the level of skill will always be part of the game (requirement), but the challenge created for a RPG to truly exist is mostly reliant on how limited the player skill is when it comes to the character.
You mention Dice Rolls. Lets really call it for what it is. Random Number Generator. Fact: most computer games will make use of that function at one point or another. You might think the dice rolling from the pen and paper days was dumb. but it is an important aspect of video game programming (the purpose it served). Just some food for thought.
As for Vindictus, the only time I played it was at E3. From the perspective of Game Design, I cannot completely call it a RPG. Its more of an action game with rpg elements. The legend of Zelda is no different.
You mention Morrowind and Oblivion. They are completely different. Morrowind WAS a RPG. Why? You could swing at an enemy, and it doesnt actually mean you would "hit it". You could stand there swinging at an enemy all day long, even if they were right in front of you, and still miss. This is important. IN Oblivion, they did the opposite. Its hit box based, you swing, if the weapon hits them, regardless of your characters skill with that weapon, the enemy would be hit. Oblivion became an ACTION game with RPG elements.
I am not suggesting its so black and white, there can be shades of grey when it comes to minor design choices, but when it becomes major, then the challenges change and thus the genre changes. I am not here bashing Vindictus, but rather making a few neutral observations for the product (emphasis on product) aimed primarily at the asian PC Cafe audience. This is important.