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Should solo players have an endgame?

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  • artemisentr4artemisentr4 Member UncommonPosts: 1,431
    Originally posted by Shadus

    Originally posted by SwampRob
    There's nothing wrong with having both group and solo content in a game.    That is not the source of the problem.   Let's forget debates about comparative dificulties, whether soloing should be as rewarding as grouping etc.   It comes down to this:
    When groupers get to the end game, they are offered a series of progressively more difficult content, providing progressively better rewards.
    Soloers are not offered anything similar.    That is the problem.

    ^ That. QFT. Cept I'd say it only really applies to raiders, not even groupers in most games. Raiders, Groupers, and Soloers should have that option as well.

    Double QFT. It changes nothing for the raiders but can enhance the end game for so
    many others. 

    “How many people long for that "past, simpler, and better world," I wonder, without ever recognizing the truth that perhaps it was they who were simpler and better, and not the world about them?”
    R.A.Salvatore

  • Aison2Aison2 Member CommonPosts: 624

    Originally posted by Shadus

     




    Originally posted by SwampRob

    There's nothing wrong with having both group and solo content in a game.    That is not the source of the problem.   Let's forget debates about comparative dificulties, whether soloing should be as rewarding as grouping etc.   It comes down to this:

    When groupers get to the end game, they are offered a series of progressively more difficult content, providing progressively better rewards.

    Soloers are not offered anything similar.    That is the problem.








    ^ That. QFT. Cept I'd say it only really applies to raiders, not even groupers in most games. Raiders, Groupers, and Soloers should have that option as well.

     Good players will breeze trough and ask for more content, bad players will fail hard and without getting dragged along (grouping needed) will just  /quit .  Raiding works for all people because you dont need 25 competent people, you need 4 competent, 16 who can follow comand, and 5 other to fill the raid.

    Pi*1337/100 = 42

  • SovrathSovrath Member LegendaryPosts: 32,780

    Originally posted by Shadus

     




    Originally posted by SwampRob

    There's nothing wrong with having both group and solo content in a game.    That is not the source of the problem.   Let's forget debates about comparative dificulties, whether soloing should be as rewarding as grouping etc.   It comes down to this:

    When groupers get to the end game, they are offered a series of progressively more difficult content, providing progressively better rewards.

    Soloers are not offered anything similar.    That is the problem.








    ^ That. QFT. Cept I'd say it only really applies to raiders, not even groupers in most games. Raiders, Groupers, and Soloers should have that option as well.

    You bring up a very good point. A good amount of “end game” content seems to be for raiders. Not everyone who groups is really into raiding.



    So what is a grouping player to do? What type of meaningful content is there for a grouped player other than raiding.



    Which I think begs the response that short of players creating their own content or reasons to be in game, maybe end game is just that “the end of the game”.



    Time to find something else to do until the game updates.

     

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  • laokokolaokoko Member UncommonPosts: 2,004

    I think they already do.

    Crafting and making money and rolling another alt.  Back in the days I spend a few hours just crafting/disenchanting/minning in wow every day.

  • dreamscaperdreamscaper Member UncommonPosts: 1,592

    It boggles my mind that people insist on soloing through a genre that by its very nature is muliplayer cooperative. Honestly, if you're just going to solo, why not play something like Oblivion? It'll give you a far better solo experience than a MMORPG can ever hope to achieve.

    <3

  • AsheramAsheram Member EpicPosts: 5,074

    Originally posted by dreamscaper

    It boggles my mind that people insist on soloing through a genre that by its very nature is muliplayer cooperative. Honestly, if you're just going to solo, why not play something like Oblivion? It'll give you a far better solo experience than a MMORPG can ever hope to achieve.

     It boggles my mind that people that play multiplayer games insist on not knowing the nature of people that everyone will not have the same opinions,tastes,motivations or playstyles as their own.

  • BeansnBreadBeansnBread Member EpicPosts: 7,254

    Asheram, your sig. It's big.

  • jaxsundanejaxsundane Member Posts: 2,776

    Originally posted by Rockgod99

    Should they have a endgame like the groupers do? Or should solo players just hit cap, finish out their quests and re-roll?

     Why not?  In the end it only helps the game retain subs, even with that though I wouldn't say I have a problem with the way most games handle endgame it's just a part of the game I don't get to see.

    but yeah, to call this game Fantastic is like calling Twilight the Godfather of vampire movies....

  • MimiEZMimiEZ Member Posts: 225

    Originally posted by dreamscaper

    It boggles my mind that people insist on soloing through a genre that by its very nature is muliplayer cooperative. Honestly, if you're just going to solo, why not play something like Oblivion? It'll give you a far better solo experience than a MMORPG can ever hope to achieve.

     

    MMO doesn't equal cooperation, in just equals other people around. Some people, like me, like to work in groups, work alone, or just join a crowd listening to what is going on, then jumping in when something interesting is going on.

    People seem to think solo means not socializing, no it just means being able to be done on its own.

    I think MMO's need more soloable endgame, however, they shouldn't be solo dungeons. Adding some soloable content shouldn't equal not being able to workin groups. Some things they could do:

    -More intricate crafting, crafting has always been a social solo thing.

    -Add more bosses in the world that can be soloable.

    -Add more minigames. Racing, hunting, etc...Allows people still compete with eachother, yet not requiring a group. These minigames can be timed events (like  Stranglethorn fishing extraveganza in wow) or  a do whenever you want thing (like an early "quest" in Lego Universe has you race, it then ranks you with others who do that, you can then do it again whenever you want).

    -Further customization options at top levels. One thing people were super excited about in wow was Path of the Titans, which would allow someone at top level to further be able to custimize your character outside of gear choice.

    The only problem I see with adding more solo content for a companies perspective is: Is it worth it? I guess many companies don't think it is at this point.

    image
    -I want a Platformer MMO

  • dreamscaperdreamscaper Member UncommonPosts: 1,592

    Originally posted by Asheram

    Originally posted by dreamscaper

    It boggles my mind that people insist on soloing through a genre that by its very nature is muliplayer cooperative. Honestly, if you're just going to solo, why not play something like Oblivion? It'll give you a far better solo experience than a MMORPG can ever hope to achieve.

     It boggles my mind that people that play multiplayer games insist on not knowing the nature of people that everyone will not have the same opinions,tastes,motivations or playstyles as their own.

     

    It has nothing to do at all with any of that. Do you also play puzzle games for their immersive story?

    <3

  • Nightbringe1Nightbringe1 Member UncommonPosts: 1,335

    Originally posted by donkeys

    Imo, solo players should be able to get endgame too. There are henchmen and other mechanics to give them a fun endgame too. Everyone should reach endgame on their own way. I'm sick of it being exclusive to no-life raiders, like me LOL.

    Everyone has an end-game.

    The only question is at what point do you reach it.

    Any fool can criticize, condemn and complain and most fools do.
    Benjamin Franklin

  • DrachasorDrachasor Member Posts: 2,678

    I find it a bit silly that people think MMO gamers lump easily into discrete groups of "soloer", "grouper", "pvper" and perhaps "raider".  In reality, many players enjoy more than one of these groups and some enjoy all of them.

    I think a good game allows players to have fun things to do solo, in a group, pvping, and perhaps raiding (raiding is a bit questionable to me, only because it isn't actually that popular in games), without requiring that they devote their life to the game.  This means having content that is solo-friendly, group-friendly, and pvp-friendly.  Some overlap between these can exist of course (GW2 has a group-friendly and solo-friendly overlap, for instance).  This also means that either gear shouldn't be hard to get at all, or there shouldn't be a lot of different kinds of gear for each activity (pvp and pve gear in WoW makes doing both have way too much grindy hassle).

    The vast majority of people that like to do things solo also enjoy doing things in groups.  People should remember that.  Having solo-friendly stuff just means you don't HAVE to get a group to have fun, which is good because preparing to have fun is not fun.

  • Marcus-Marcus- Member UncommonPosts: 1,010

    Originally posted by dreamscaper

    It boggles my mind that people insist on soloing through a genre that by its very nature is muliplayer cooperative. Honestly, if you're just going to solo, why not play something like Oblivion? It'll give you a far better solo experience than a MMORPG can ever hope to achieve.

     Really?

     

    Because I played an MMO in 1994 called Neverwinter Nights on AOL that was hardly multiplayer cooperative. That being, the greatest amount of content was certainly soloable.

    I played another in 1997 called Ultima Online, and I hardly remember standing at the Brit Bank hollering out "LFG Destard! Need healer and tank!!!"

    I didnt play Meridian 59 long enough to get to end game, but i don't recall it being multiplayer cooperative (though i could be wrong with this).

    If memory serves, these are considered the first three graphical MMOs..

    Can these games have group oriented content? of course, but they hardly demand it by their very nature.

     

    /shrug

  • AxehiltAxehilt Member RarePosts: 10,504

    Originally posted by Gutlard

    Originally posted by unbound55

    ... 

    Out of curiosity, would you also ask that Tie Fighter include a ground game?  The game was clearly made with the intention of space combat flight simulator.  Asking the game company to overhaul the game just because you want to play it very differently than they intended seems rather silly.  Just go out and find another game that suits you better and what you want to do.

     Yes, I would expect Tie Fighter to have a ground game at endgame if they've had it through out the game. I'm not asking the game company to reinvent their wheel. I'm asking them to continue to support all the playstyles they've made content for thru the entirety of their game. It doesn't make sense for a game that's had both solo and multi play through 80 levels to then turn into just a multi game or vice versa.

     

    Should there be strictly solo games? Yes. Should there be strictly group games? Yes. Should there be games with options for both? Yes. Should game companies stay loyal to their player base for the entire game? Yes.

     

    Gutlard Out!

    Yeah, exactly.

    It's not asking the company to reinvent their wheel -- it's asking them to avoid cutting their wheel in half after players have sunk 200 hours into the game.

    "What is truly revealing is his implication that believing something to be true is the same as it being true. [continue]" -John Oliver

  • artemisentr4artemisentr4 Member UncommonPosts: 1,431
    Originally posted by dreamscaper

    It boggles my mind that people insist on soloing through a genre that by its very nature is muliplayer cooperative. Honestly, if you're just going to solo, why not play something like Oblivion? It'll give you a far better solo experience than a MMORPG can ever hope to achieve.

     What boggles my mind is that you actually think that a MMO should force evey player to play in a group at all times. That there should be no content for solo play at all. Or the fact that there is a big difference in game design from Oblivion and a MMO.

    To me the issue is content options. Not all group or all solo. There should be a large amount of content for both play styles. Many MMO's today have a large amount of solo while leveling. Some grouping while leveling. But all group at end game for dev created content. Personally I don't care about the raid gear while soloing. If I want the gear I will raid. But I understand that there are thousands if not millions that don't have the RL time to run raids. These players are social. The do join guilds and run group quests. But they also would like a solo option for progression. Just content to do when you want for rewards that are better than basic level cap gear, but no where near the raid gear. Some kind of carrot for other than raid content. So I would like to see raids, groups, small groups and solo content for end game. Not all one way or the other.

    “How many people long for that "past, simpler, and better world," I wonder, without ever recognizing the truth that perhaps it was they who were simpler and better, and not the world about them?”
    R.A.Salvatore

  • AsheramAsheram Member EpicPosts: 5,074

    Originally posted by dreamscaper

    Originally posted by Asheram

    Originally posted by dreamscaper

    It boggles my mind that people insist on soloing through a genre that by its very nature is muliplayer cooperative. Honestly, if you're just going to solo, why not play something like Oblivion? It'll give you a far better solo experience than a MMORPG can ever hope to achieve.

     It boggles my mind that people that play multiplayer games insist on not knowing the nature of people that everyone will not have the same opinions,tastes,motivations or playstyles as their own.

     

    It has nothing to do at all with any of that. Do you also play puzzle games for their immersive story?

     It has everything to do with that otherwise you wouldnt care why other people play the game the way they do and what if I do play puzzle games for their immersive story why does it matter to you so much that it leaves your mind boggled?

    MMORPG's have both solo and group content so by its very nature it is multiplayer with co-operative opportunities.

  • cheyanecheyane Member LegendaryPosts: 9,386

    Tough question. Problem if you do allow it there will be a lot of complaints from those who raid.They are not just  satisfied that they can raid and have a chance at the good loot but that others should not get it any other way. They will make a lot of noise. I group a lot am an old EQer but I solo too these days so I can see it from both sides of the spectrum.

    Garrus Signature
  • BizkitNLBizkitNL Member RarePosts: 2,546

    In a roleplaying game (You know, the "RPG" part of MMORPG), I'd like to have choices. Grouping and solo'ing. I want both.

    I mean, come on. It's not like we walk around in groups all day in real life. Just to give an example.

    I'm time-stressed a lot of times, just wanting to log in and do stuff, rather than waste time finding a group for a certain task (And possibly to see that group fail due to drama). Other times I embrace it.

    Now, loot-wise, I don't see how the both should be on-par with one another. Well, other than any solo'ing for gear should take considerably longer than, say, raiding for it? I don't know.

     

    Lastly, anyone seeing how an MMO should only be about grouping is just silly. It's the social interaction that really counts, and in all MMO's that can be done without forming a group.

    10
  • SuperXero89SuperXero89 Member UncommonPosts: 2,551

    Endgame soloers should have an endgame and at least in WoW, they do have an endgame. It's called daily quests.

    Do I think that soloers should have some sort of an alternate path to gear like the kind that players get from 5-mans and raids?  No chance.

     

    Outside of that, MMORPGs aren't really games I believe are meant to be played entirely solo, and as a result, a solo endgame is usually what the players make of it.  Depending on the game, there are various reasons for a soloer to keep playing his or her max level toon given anything from obtaining all master level spells in EQ2 to making money with WoW dailies to decorating a house in UO or SWG.

  • RivalenRivalen Member Posts: 503

    I actually believe ArenaNet is working on it and doing it well.

    The Mists - End game RvRvR (solo friendly)

    Group based Arenas - Group based PvP End Game 

    Raids - Group based PVE End Game

    Personal Story - Solo Based PVE End Game

    The more solo content the better, after all people might want to play alone from time to time.

  • DrachasorDrachasor Member Posts: 2,678

    Originally posted by Rivalen

    I actually believe ArenaNet is working on it and doing it well.

    The Mists - End game RvRvR (solo friendly)

    Group based Arenas - Group based PvP End Game 

    Raids - Group based PVE End Game

    Personal Story - Solo Based PVE End Game

    The more solo content the better, after all people might want to play alone from time to time.

    From everything I've read, they have zero raids.  There will be group-based dungeons, and there will be solo/group PvE opne world dynamic events.  No raiding in the traditional sense, and frankly good riddance -- it's a ridiculously time-consuming content to make and only services a small percentage of the population.

  • DaxPierceDaxPierce Member Posts: 172

    Originally posted by Rockgod99

    Should they have a endgame like the groupers do? Or should solo players just hit cap, finish out their quests and re-roll?

     Solo players should have their own endgame. People who want to work with others, min/max their gear and damage, and take the time too strategize should have their own endgame. Of course, there will always be people who want everything handed to them with little to know idea how they even are supposed to play their class, or know their role.

    I often wonder if it would be a nice idea to make endgame content a purchaseable kit (like content on LOTRO) so that at least people who take things a bit less casually can have their own endgame. That way that shitty excuse for paying the same sub a month doesn't make them feel entitled to get handed everything.

  • RivalenRivalen Member Posts: 503

    Originally posted by Drachasor

    Originally posted by Rivalen

    I actually believe ArenaNet is working on it and doing it well.

    The Mists - End game RvRvR (solo friendly)

    Group based Arenas - Group based PvP End Game 

    Raids - Group based PVE End Game

    Personal Story - Solo Based PVE End Game

    The more solo content the better, after all people might want to play alone from time to time.

    From everything I've read, they have zero raids.  There will be group-based dungeons, and there will be solo/group PvE opne world dynamic events.  No raiding in the traditional sense, and frankly good riddance -- it's a ridiculously time-consuming content to make and only services a small percentage of the population.

     I guess i should have been more precise.

    GW2 Group Based PVE End Game:

    - Group based instanced dungeons

    - Open World Public Boss Fights

     

    I actually read that there might be other group content tied to the personal stories but let's wait and see.

    Some kind of Guild Instanced Story would be preety nice.

  • DrachasorDrachasor Member Posts: 2,678


    Originally posted by SuperXero89
    Endgame soloers should have an endgame and at least in WoW, they do have an endgame. It's called daily quests.

    If daily quests are remotely good end-game content, then we need end-game content like we need a hole in the head. Daily quests are an extremely stupid grind, barely more interesting than just grinding mobs.

    Honestly, WoW's endgame leaves a lot to be desired. The game dissolves into a very repetitive grind in general, but Daily Quests are definitely the worst "end-game" grind in the game.


    Originally posted by SuperXero89
    Do I think that soloers should have some sort of an alternate path to gear like the kind that players get from 5-mans and raids?  No chance.

    Why not? There's really no good reason not to provide for this, and have appropriately challenging content if you happen to be soloing (though going with GW2's system of dynamically scaling content is probably the way to go).


    Originally posted by SuperXero89
    Outside of that, MMORPGs aren't really games I believe are meant to be played entirely solo, and as a result, a solo endgame is usually what the players make of it.  Depending on the game, there are various reasons for a soloer to keep playing his or her max level toon given anything from obtaining all master level spells in EQ2 to making money with WoW dailies to decorating a house in UO or SWG.

    You could say the same basic thing about group content. There's no particularly reason why someone who is having trouble finding a group should be punished in the game. Frankly, it is a BAD system. Holy Trinity combat makes the whole grouping problem much worse, since it requires that groups have particular compositions (which would lead to grouping problems even if the population played in the exact right ratio...which it doesn't).

    Forcing grouping for fun/meaningful content is a terrible thing to do, especially when you have systems that make grouping difficult in one form or another. Amusing, WoW attempts to solve this with the Group Finder, and ends up making grouping a terrible experience and hence have yet another mechanic that hurts the community.

  • DrachasorDrachasor Member Posts: 2,678

    Originally posted by Rivalen

    Originally posted by Drachasor


    Originally posted by Rivalen

    I actually believe ArenaNet is working on it and doing it well.

    The Mists - End game RvRvR (solo friendly)

    Group based Arenas - Group based PvP End Game 

    Raids - Group based PVE End Game

    Personal Story - Solo Based PVE End Game

    The more solo content the better, after all people might want to play alone from time to time.

    From everything I've read, they have zero raids.  There will be group-based dungeons, and there will be solo/group PvE opne world dynamic events.  No raiding in the traditional sense, and frankly good riddance -- it's a ridiculously time-consuming content to make and only services a small percentage of the population.

     I guess i should have been more precise.

    GW2 Group Based PVE End Game:

    - Group based instanced dungeons

    - Open World Public Boss Fights

     

    I actually read that there might be other group content tied to the personal stories but let's wait and see.

    Some kind of Guild Instanced Story would be preety nice.

    Personal stories have a dungeon about every 10 levels.  You do the personal story and the dungeon opens up for group-based play (or something like that, I imagine the precise implementation of it is something that is being worked on).  The solo-story provides the cut-scenes and the major Lore elements, so that when you do stuff as a group you won't have some people wanting to watch everything and others wanting to skip everything.  Anyhow, once you unlock the dungeon there are many paths and possibilities when you go through the dungeon in a group (making it pretty repeatable).

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