It's not about elitism....its about a fundamental change of a genere that was once something unique to what you could experience in other game generes.
You have to remember.....traditional MMORPG gaming came from MUDs and Table Top DnD type games. Like how DnD was far more complex, immersive, and required more attention and time than say Monopoly........traditional MMORPGs were more complex, immersive, and required more attention and time than Super Mario Bros., or even Doom.
Because traditional MMORPGs had a high level of depth, breathe, detail, difficulty, and time required.....you can think of it as more of a Hobby than just a quick fix game experience. And like most other things you'd consider a Hobby.....people people particpating are VERY passionate about all topics in that realm.
It's not a bunch of old school / hardcore elitiests yelling at the new kids to get off their lawn......its a community of passionate hobbiests that are a little miffed that thier hobby has been main streamed and diluted to fit less committed and passionate types.
I personally don't have a problem with gamers that don't appreciate the types of things in games that I appreciate. Different strokes for different folks, and certianly there are enough types of game generes out there to satisfy all of the wants and desires that casual gamers are looking for. I just take issue with the need to "progress" one of the few game venues that offered something different into nothing more than a glorified RPG game with an internet connection.
IMO, PnP games are an entirely different genre, due to many points that you mention. The social element is an entirely different one.
When if comes to death, PnP is also drastically different. Survivability is much better in PnP games. When every move you make can be a decision made after several minutes of consideration, you're in much better shape to be able to respond in a self preserving fashion.
And you tend to have more options. Most PnP games have a better system for breaking away from combat, fighting defensively, or running for cover. While often, good MMO's have skills which emulate these things to an extent, you also have to respond much more quickly.
In short, situational awareness is greatly heightened for a PnP party than it is your average MMO group. Health bars and status icons to make a split second decision are no match for minutes of deliberation betwixt a DM and their brave party of stalwart die tossers.
Even with that in mind, death in most PnP games isn't permanent, either. Painful, yes. And even when it is permanent, most DM's aren't fool enough to make someone roll a new 1st level character to fight beside their 10th level pals fighting CR 10 encounters.
Heavy DP's work in games like Eve, DFO, and MO because the games were designed that way; sacrifice is mitigated either by insurance mechanics, or simply by gear not being terribly sacred. Other games, like, say, CoX would be silly with heavy DP's. Flat out silly. While CoX kept the system the OP describes, they not only toned it down, but also put in bonus XP advancement with careers. XP penalties now apply to those bonuses now, which effectively removes the DP's altogether, unless you play constantly.
DP's don't make anything more difficult. A 6 foot leap over a sandbox is no less difficult than a 6 foot leap over a spiked pit. All harsh DP's do is discourage developers from making it a 6 foot leap; they'll make it a 2 foot leap, instead.
Good points, but my comparison to PnP games was only to highlight that traditional MMORPG gaming was more of a hobby than "just a game".....and that the issue many traditional MMORPG types have with modern MMOs is that they are turning a deep and rich hobby into "just a game".
I also agree with you in that heavy (or even mild) death penalties don't work in all types of games. If your penalizing players by risking their gear in a gear centric game, then yes....you have a problem. If your playing a PvP Korean Grinder that takes 8 hours to get 2% of a level and you loose 2% per death.....you have a problem. If items are common place, then full loot on death is less of an issue....etc.
And one last thing, a 6ft leap over a sandbox is no less difficult than a 6 foot leap over a spiked pit.......BUT the consequences are COMPLETELY different. It makes you think before you do something; it makes you aware of your environment and surroundings, the risk you take adds a little more to succeeding. It's those adrenaline rushes that I miss the most.
It's not about elitism....its about a fundamental change of a genere that was once something unique to what you could experience in other game generes.
You have to remember.....traditional MMORPG gaming came from MUDs and Table Top DnD type games. Like how DnD was far more complex, immersive, and required more attention and time than say Monopoly........traditional MMORPGs were more complex, immersive, and required more attention and time than Super Mario Bros., or even Doom.
Because traditional MMORPGs had a high level of depth, breathe, detail, difficulty, and time required.....you can think of it as more of a Hobby than just a quick fix game experience. And like most other things you'd consider a Hobby.....people people particpating are VERY passionate about all topics in that realm.
It's not a bunch of old school / hardcore elitiests yelling at the new kids to get off their lawn......its a community of passionate hobbiests that are a little miffed that thier hobby has been main streamed and diluted to fit less committed and passionate types.
I personally don't have a problem with gamers that don't appreciate the types of things in games that I appreciate. Different strokes for different folks, and certianly there are enough types of game generes out there to satisfy all of the wants and desires that casual gamers are looking for. I just take issue with the need to "progress" one of the few game venues that offered something different into nothing more than a glorified RPG game with an internet connection.
There are some games where the death penalty forces you to group more than solo... Those that would rather have not just a challenge in a fight, but a meaning in death other than just respawning back at home will like this more regardless if they are a pure solo-er or an avid partier.
Some games don't have a death penalty at all (respawning back is a time penalty on your real life and not really something that hurts your character). These games can often feel stale and more like a game than an alternate world... a quick piece of fun.
There are reasons for both styles and reasons for many ranges of death penalties and one should find those games for themselves. Let the game developers decide on what they want to cater towards.
If you want to solo and there's a large death penalty, best prepare yourself or play a less penalizing game. It's not the game's fault that it doesn't want to spread its wings to everyone and anyone. And it shouldn't need to want to.
I liked the death penalties in Everquest. Made going into a dungeon or somewhere deep exhiliarating for the sheer fact that if you died, you not only lost experience you had to retrieve your corpse or you lost everything.
I will say this -- actually losing your corpse in everquest -- and it did happen to some people -- was not a pleasant affair. Consider going from very good gear to plain crafted and the sheer amount of time lost.
Thing is there were entire guilds that broke up // people left the game from the guild failing a raid in fear and PRACTICALLY EVERYONE IN THE GUILD losing all of their items.
Ok, I was thinking if I should discuss this article, but the urge is just stronger than me. This is like the worse article about MMOs I have ever seen. So now an article is considered pure bitching about "boohoo, they killed me and I dont feel like a superhero anymore"... jesus... and what the hell was that real world scenario? you really think GM will care that some friend of yours fiddled with your computer? its your stupidity, not fault of the game for christs sake... I will not even comment on your ideas to change death penalty, since its jsut your opinion.... one final objection I have against the article is: why the hell you talk in plural? "nothing we can do ... our suffering"
I will say this -- actually losing your corpse in everquest -- and it did happen to some people -- was not a pleasant affair. Consider going from very good gear to plain crafted and the sheer amount of time lost.
Thing is there were entire guilds that broke up // people left the game from the guild failing a raid in fear and PRACTICALLY EVERYONE IN THE GUILD losing all of their items.
Duely noted, but most people learn (and learn quick) when they fall on their faces like that. There is no doubt in my mind that MMORPG games lose players to tough losses like that.....but maybe MMORPG gameing wasn't their cup of tea in the first place?
The people who are truely interested in the Genere typically learn from those scenarios, and ultimately turn out to be better players in the long run. Good players are 10x more enjoyable to play with than bad ones.....which leads to a better community and a better overall game experience.
Also, that plain crafted gear your forced to wear all of the sudden becomes a lot more valueable to you once you realize your not 10ft tall and bullet proof.
There are some games where the death penalty forces you to group more than solo... Those that would rather have not just a challenge in a fight, but a meaning in death other than just respawning back at home will like this more regardless if they are a pure solo-er or an avid partier.
Some games don't have a death penalty at all (respawning back is a time penalty on your real life and not really something that hurts your character). These games can often feel stale and more like a game than an alternate world... a quick piece of fun.
There are reasons for both styles and reasons for many ranges of death penalties and one should find those games for themselves. Let the game developers decide on what they want to cater towards.
If you want to solo and there's a large death penalty, best prepare yourself or play a less penalizing game. It's not the game's fault that it doesn't want to spread its wings to everyone and anyone. And it shouldn't need to want to.
I get what your trying to say, but thats not the reality of our current MMO situation
*Takes off MMORPG Ideolog Hat* *Puts on Business Hat*
The Game Developers have found that there are more "Other" types of gamers than "traditional MMORPG" gamers. They want to bring those "other" games into the genere because they can charge monthly subscriptions (or cash shops) with online games.
So, to appeal to more casual gamers.....they mold a MMORPG into something more similar to casual games. They remove many of the barriers to entry for them and ultimately turn the game into more of a hack n' slash action focused game than a hard knocks, virtual life simulation that focuses more on adventuring and socializing.
WOW hits the scenes and knocks it out the park. It pulled in probably close to 9-10 million new gamers into the MMO industry and now, the only way a AAA game publisher will touch a MMO is if it can appeal to this new modern MMO market (which seems to be more focused on action based combat moreso than socializing & exploration)
Which is why games like Darkfall & Mortal Online (traditional type hard knocks MMORPGs) dangle in the wind for years and years without a production company to pick their game and put in the resources needed to polish it up and get it ready for launch.
Because games like DF & MO didn't have the bank roll to produce a game on par with some of the other big titles, they release with 4-5 year old technology, full of bugs, half of the features promised implemented, and a full of lag and crashes because they don't have the money invested in the hardware & infrastructure.....making the game unplayable even for the old school MMORPG types.
Launch is a failure and everyone points at the failed experiement and says SEE.....Traditional Sandbox MMOs are terrible!
For me (former Ultima Online player) Mortal Online on paper was the second coming of UO...finally a place to call home. (Literally....i was excited about player housing) Yet I log in and the game is half finished with graphics on par with EQ1 and is generally unplayable. Had MO had the dollars to put in production, software, hardware, etc.....it could have been a contender. Nothing like WOW....but something on par with what EVE has been able to do.
So, to appeal to more casual gamers.....they mold a MMORPG into something more similar to casual games. They remove many of the barriers to entry for them and ultimately turn the game into more of a hack n' slash action focused game than a hard knocks, virtual life simulation that focuses more on adventuring and socializing.
WOW hits the scenes and knocks it out the park. It pulled in probably close to 9-10 million new gamers into the MMO industry and now, the only way a AAA game publisher will touch a MMO is if it can appeal to this new modern MMO market (which seems to be more focused on action based combat moreso than socializing & exploration)
Which is why games like Darkfall & Mortal Online (traditional type hard knocks MMORPGs) dangle in the wind for years and years without a production company to pick their game and put in the resources needed to polish it up and get it ready for launch.
Because games like DF & MO didn't have the bank roll to produce a game on par with some of the other big titles, they release with 4-5 year old technology, full of bugs, half of the features promised implemented, and a full of lag and crashes because they don't have the money invested in the hardware & infrastructure.....making the game unplayable even for the old school MMORPG types.
Launch is a failure and everyone points at the failed experiement and says SEE.....Traditional Sandbox MMOs are terrible!
For me (former Ultima Online player) Mortal Online on paper was the second coming of UO...finally a place to call home. (Literally....i was excited about player housing) Yet I log in and the game is half finished with graphics on par with EQ1 and is generally unplayable. Had MO had the dollars to put in production, software, hardware, etc.....it could have been a contender. Nothing like WOW....but something on par with what EVE has been able to do.
Well, All I can say is that MMO gaming IS a business. There is very little demand for the type game you want. I guess you could still play the paper and pencil game???
And to say WoW did it all to you is silly. Wow did not invent the "theme park" MMO. It perfected it. The reason it has 12,000,000 subs is not just because it is easy to play (Some of the content is damned hard) They got those subs because WoW is a great game and lots of fun to play. Ok so it is accessable to almost anyone. Isn't that what you would want in a game you made? Wouldn't you want as many people as possible playing it and paying you? I would.
Trying to shine up an old model T and put it on the market is only going to attract Collectors and those who suffer from nostalga magliosa.
Go on be honest you played WOW for quite a long time didn't you.
PS I quit EvE after 2.5 years leaving 50+ ships and 2 billion isk, not because it was too hard .... but because it was too boring. waiting and waiting for someone to come .. and then going and working with spreadsheets to make more isk. I have to ad mit tho that it was beautiful to behold. I found too that to get into the fun part of the endgame (which also entailed hoursof waiting) you had to just about devote your life to the game so you could be there when something happened.
I cancelled my Eve sub after 1 day of WOW trial. WoW is the best mmo I have seen so far. The rest I have tried ended up like you said.
"Because games like DF & MO (add by me .... and many many more) didn't have the bank roll to produce a game on par with some of the other big titles, they release with 4-5 year old technology, full of bugs, half of the features promised implemented, and a full of lag and crashes because they don't have the money invested in the hardware & infrastructure.....making the game unplayable even for the old school MMORPG types.' added by wahala99 --->Not to mention clunky annimation.
Sorry I don't mean to put your desire for the good old days down, I just don't want to bring them back.
I will say this -- actually losing your corpse in everquest -- and it did happen to some people -- was not a pleasant affair. Consider going from very good gear to plain crafted and the sheer amount of time lost.
Thing is there were entire guilds that broke up // people left the game from the guild failing a raid in fear and PRACTICALLY EVERYONE IN THE GUILD losing all of their items.
Seems like I read about a really elite player in EQ at "the highest level" (or something like that many many hours of play to get there anyway), who committed suicide after losing the char to permadeath. Those were serious gamers.
Was this guy
EQ is very time-consuming for many people, and there has been one well-publicized suicide of an EverQuest user named Shawn that resulted in his mother, Liz, founding Online Gamers Anonymous
I took his last name out of the cut and paste ... well just because it seemed like the right thing to do.
OK SORRY Wrong info ... he did not lose char ... it was something else while he was playing ... no one really knows why. He was disturbed and had other problems too .. so disregard this post. The rumor I heard was wrong.
I will say this -- actually losing your corpse in everquest -- and it did happen to some people -- was not a pleasant affair. Consider going from very good gear to plain crafted and the sheer amount of time lost.
Thing is there were entire guilds that broke up // people left the game from the guild failing a raid in fear and PRACTICALLY EVERYONE IN THE GUILD losing all of their items.
Duely noted, but most people learn (and learn quick) when they fall on their faces like that. There is no doubt in my mind that MMORPG games lose players to tough losses like that.....but maybe MMORPG gameing wasn't their cup of tea in the first place?
The people who are truely interested in the Genere typically learn from those scenarios, and ultimately turn out to be better players in the long run. Good players are 10x more enjoyable to play with than bad ones.....which leads to a better community and a better overall game experience.
Also, that plain crafted gear your forced to wear all of the sudden becomes a lot more valueable to you once you realize your not 10ft tall and bullet proof.
Vanguard in mid-beta actually came up with a decent method of fixing this situation.
If you died and you were unable to retrieve your corpse, there was an NPC in the game that after a FULL WEEK you could BUY your items back from (it wasn't exactly cheap either but not so expensive that you would not buy something back that you didnt replace with better in the meantime).
So death at the max was losing all of your items for a week then having to do the equivalent of buying a mount to get all your stuff back (getting just key equipment back was much cheaper of course -- it was ala carte).
----
But no -- in early everquest, losing your entire progression and having to start from the beginning was just malevolent. I will put it this way -- if that death penalty were in-force today -- if you lost your corpse over the weekend in wow and had crafted equipment -- would your raid guild that you lost a years worth of progress in keep you or dump you? They are in 8, you are now at 0.
So, to appeal to more casual gamers.....they mold a MMORPG into something more similar to casual games. They remove many of the barriers to entry for them and ultimately turn the game into more of a hack n' slash action focused game than a hard knocks, virtual life simulation that focuses more on adventuring and socializing.
WOW hits the scenes and knocks it out the park. It pulled in probably close to 9-10 million new gamers into the MMO industry and now, the only way a AAA game publisher will touch a MMO is if it can appeal to this new modern MMO market (which seems to be more focused on action based combat moreso than socializing & exploration)
Which is why games like Darkfall & Mortal Online (traditional type hard knocks MMORPGs) dangle in the wind for years and years without a production company to pick their game and put in the resources needed to polish it up and get it ready for launch.
Because games like DF & MO didn't have the bank roll to produce a game on par with some of the other big titles, they release with 4-5 year old technology, full of bugs, half of the features promised implemented, and a full of lag and crashes because they don't have the money invested in the hardware & infrastructure.....making the game unplayable even for the old school MMORPG types.
Launch is a failure and everyone points at the failed experiement and says SEE.....Traditional Sandbox MMOs are terrible!
For me (former Ultima Online player) Mortal Online on paper was the second coming of UO...finally a place to call home. (Literally....i was excited about player housing) Yet I log in and the game is half finished with graphics on par with EQ1 and is generally unplayable. Had MO had the dollars to put in production, software, hardware, etc.....it could have been a contender. Nothing like WOW....but something on par with what EVE has been able to do.
Well, All I can say is that MMO gaming IS a business. There is very little demand for the type game you want. I guess you could still play the paper and pencil game???
And to say WoW did it all to you is silly. Wow did not invent the "theme park" MMO. It perfected it. The reason it has 12,000,000 subs is not just because it is easy to play (Some of the content is damned hard) They got those subs because WoW is a great game and lots of fun to play. Ok so it is accessable to almost anyone. Isn't that what you would want in a game you made? Wouldn't you want as many people as possible playing it and paying you? I would.
Trying to shine up an old model T and put it on the market is only going to attract Collectors and those who suffer from nostalga magliosa.
Go on be honest you played WOW for quite a long time didn't you.
PS I quit EvE after 2.5 years leaving 50+ ships and 2 billion isk, not because it was too hard .... but because it was too boring. waiting and waiting for someone to come .. and then going and working with spreadsheets to make more isk. I have to ad mit tho that it was beautiful to behold. I found too that to get into the fun part of the endgame (which also entailed hoursof waiting) you had to just about devote your life to the game so you could be there when something happened.
I cancelled my Eve sub after 1 day of WOW trial. WoW is the best mmo I have seen so far. The rest I have tried ended up like you said.
"Because games like DF & MO (add by me .... and many many more) didn't have the bank roll to produce a game on par with some of the other big titles, they release with 4-5 year old technology, full of bugs, half of the features promised implemented, and a full of lag and crashes because they don't have the money invested in the hardware & infrastructure.....making the game unplayable even for the old school MMORPG types.' added by wahala99 --->Not to mention clunky annimation.
Sorry I don't mean to put your desire for the good old days down, I just don't want to bring them back.
The counter-point here comes down to 2 words.... market saturation. You'll note that a very large number of the games that came after WOW which tried to appeal to the same sort of crowd aren't doing particulary well.
The reason is not neccesarly that they all suck as games, it's that they have too little to differentiate themselves from many similar products out there. Even if the market segment that you are going after is the largest one around by far, it's still going to have a finite number of customers and if you have to share those customers with alot of other competitors then your chances of doing well are not good. On the other hand, even if the market segment that you are going after is quite small by comparision but you are the only one serving that market segment you can be quite profitable. That's why games like EVE, even though they serve a smaller market, can do quite well for themselves.
Honestly, also I think you sell "casual gamers" a bit short. I don't think thier problem is so much with complexity, or suffering penalties for failure/death as it is with time sinks/grind.
I don't think most would mind being penalized rather harshley for 10-15 minutes after death (in whatever form that might take) if death occurs with any frequency....or being penalized very harshly for death/failure if it occurs rarely. The problem sets in when you make them do 4-6 hours worth of work/grind to recover from something that occurs frequently. It's the fact that in many games....simply PLAYING the game to achieve items/exp is more often work/grind then fun.
Note also that I think you are misjudging potential audiances a bit. The typical "casual" MMO today, targets the solo/achiever type of personalty with gear/advancment/title type rewards for grinding. That market certainly is pretty decent sized..... but if you look at the broader spectrum of online activity...the VAST majority audience is actualy the Social personalty type (facebook, linked-in, etc), they actualy dwarf they typical "gamer" audiance in numbers. Now generaly they aren't drawn much to games....but an MMO that could tap into a portion of that audience could do extremely well for itself.
So, to appeal to more casual gamers.....they mold a MMORPG into something more similar to casual games. They remove many of the barriers to entry for them and ultimately turn the game into more of a hack n' slash action focused game than a hard knocks, virtual life simulation that focuses more on adventuring and socializing.
WOW hits the scenes and knocks it out the park. It pulled in probably close to 9-10 million new gamers into the MMO industry and now, the only way a AAA game publisher will touch a MMO is if it can appeal to this new modern MMO market (which seems to be more focused on action based combat moreso than socializing & exploration)
Which is why games like Darkfall & Mortal Online (traditional type hard knocks MMORPGs) dangle in the wind for years and years without a production company to pick their game and put in the resources needed to polish it up and get it ready for launch.
Because games like DF & MO didn't have the bank roll to produce a game on par with some of the other big titles, they release with 4-5 year old technology, full of bugs, half of the features promised implemented, and a full of lag and crashes because they don't have the money invested in the hardware & infrastructure.....making the game unplayable even for the old school MMORPG types.
Launch is a failure and everyone points at the failed experiement and says SEE.....Traditional Sandbox MMOs are terrible!
For me (former Ultima Online player) Mortal Online on paper was the second coming of UO...finally a place to call home. (Literally....i was excited about player housing) Yet I log in and the game is half finished with graphics on par with EQ1 and is generally unplayable. Had MO had the dollars to put in production, software, hardware, etc.....it could have been a contender. Nothing like WOW....but something on par with what EVE has been able to do.
Well, All I can say is that MMO gaming IS a business. There is very little demand for the type game you want. I guess you could still play the paper and pencil game???
Your right, it is a business....and thats why I presented my argument in the way I did. There is absolutely a conflict of interest from a fan of the genere's perspective and an AAA Game Publisher CEO's perspective.
Also, there was very little demand for the type MMORPGs back when those types of games were about exploring, adventuring and socializing. Only the most serious of gamers had or could afford PCs, and If I'm not mistaken....Madden '98 was probably outselling copies of Ultima Online...and even EQ. Thats why I liken traditional MMORPG gaming to more of a hobby for serious enthusiasts than it was just some game to pass the time. There were a ton of barriers to entry into the genere.
Again I don't mean to be a protectionist of the genere, but it made playing a challenging game that depends on socializing much more enjoyable when the general community was like minded individuals. Now that the general modern MMO community is a mixed bag of casual to hardcore types....its harder for developers to deliver a product that truely satifies either party.
And to say WoW did it all to you is silly. Wow did not invent the "theme park" MMO. It perfected it. The reason it has 12,000,000 subs is not just because it is easy to play (Some of the content is damned hard) They got those subs because WoW is a great game and lots of fun to play. Ok so it is accessable to almost anyone. Isn't that what you would want in a game you made? Wouldn't you want as many people as possible playing it and paying you? I would.
No doubt that Blizzard's ability to garner and retain the kind of subs it has is because its a top rated product. I haven't seen any other game that has the polish and user friendliness that WOW has brought to the table. However, I feel the majority of the subs it brought to the MMORPG genere is DIRECTLY as a result of the lowering of barriers (or bar) for more casual types. I don't know exactly where it is, but I remember reading on the WOW site a Q&A from the original dev team that one of their MAIN goals in developing WOW was that they wanted to drop those barriers that kept the "average" gamer out of MMORPGs.
From a CEO's perspective, yes......I want as many subs as I can get. My responsibility is to my shareholders, not the gamers. From a MMORPG gaming enthusiast's point of view....NO. I want to play with players who are intelligent, mature, can critically think and learn from mistakes. I don't want to play with folks who are appathetic and demand the development team fix all that ales them. There are a ton of unintended consequences that negatively impact the community when you start doing things in the name of "fun" or convienence like auto group matching, auto porting to dungeons & battlegrounds, instancing, and yes....cheap death penalties.
Trying to shine up an old model T and put it on the market is only going to attract Collectors and those who suffer from nostalga magliosa.
Go on be honest you played WOW for quite a long time didn't you.
I have....about 4-5 years to be exact. However, the last 2-3 years have been more because there just is absolutely nothing else out there than me being really stoked on the game play. Like you, I really bought in to WOW when I first played it....only that I generally lost interest after a few years playing. Experiences became cheap and as the game became more convienent and easy. Almost none of the endgame content is player generated and you end up waiting on the dev team to put out the next dungeon, next quest, next set of gear to chase.
WOW's model is an interesting one.....but one that burns out fast. (relatively speaking)
PS I quit EvE after 2.5 years leaving 50+ ships and 2 billion isk, not because it was too hard .... but because it was too boring. waiting and waiting for someone to come .. and then going and working with spreadsheets to make more isk. I have to ad mit tho that it was beautiful to behold. I found too that to get into the fun part of the endgame (which also entailed hoursof waiting) you had to just about devote your life to the game so you could be there when something happened.
I cancelled my Eve sub after 1 day of WOW trial. WoW is the best mmo I have seen so far. The rest I have tried ended up like you said.
"Because games like DF & MO (add by me .... and many many more) didn't have the bank roll to produce a game on par with some of the other big titles, they release with 4-5 year old technology, full of bugs, half of the features promised implemented, and a full of lag and crashes because they don't have the money invested in the hardware & infrastructure.....making the game unplayable even for the old school MMORPG types.' added by wahala99 --->Not to mention clunky annimation.
Sorry I don't mean to put your desire for the good old days down, I just don't want to bring them back.
Darkfall was released on 5 year old tech, crashed, is buggy and laggy? Are we playing the same game?
Darkfall is lightyears ahead of most MMOs in terms of tech. Can other games support 500 man battles with real time FPS combat, no instances and no zones? Didn't think so.
I have only skimmed over the replies so I may be repeating what someone else has already said.
There are several reasons to play solo. I only have a little time (<2 hours, depending on game) but want to get in a little game play. I am really tired of all the “politics” of guild/faction/team play and just want a little fun. I am in a really bad mood and know that I would be an A** to anyone who joined up with me, just let me kill and calm down some.
None of these invalidates my enjoyment of running in a group. However, if the penalty for dying solo (we know there is no way to do it all) is the same as dying in a group (presumably well balanced) then there is less and less reason to play solo. If the only time I can play a given game, without tons of penalties, is when I have a ton of spare time, while in a good and social mood, it may not be worth the $15 a month to keep an account.
On the other hand, if the death penalty were scaled to how large a group I am in it would be much more balanced. Even the “pick your penalty” option is a good idea. If solo it may not bother me to be raised back in town for a minor cost. In a group they may need me back sooner so I pay a higher price and get raised in the area. Or in a really critical need I can pay an even larger cost and get raised right next to the group leader.
Now, I can understand that having servers query every person that dies could be a serious drain on resources. At a guess that is the biggest reason for death being handled the way it is. So instead just base the death tax on how large a group you are in at the time of death. Sure, you may get those people who drop from a group just before dying. But if they are spending that much time watching when to jump ship they are not really assisting the group so may find themselves black listed.
Either of these ideas (selected cost or scaled cost) could increase the enjoyment of solo play. More enjoyment equals more players. More players equals more revenue. That is a point that is hard to argue with.
Darkfall was released on 5 year old tech, crashed, is buggy and laggy? Are we playing the same game?
Darkfall is lightyears ahead of most MMOs in terms of tech. Can other games support 500 man battles with real time FPS combat, no instances and no zones? Didn't think so.
I was speaking more of Mortal Online, which uses the Unreal Engine. Lineage 2 was the first game to use the Unreal Engine in a MMORPG setting and it was put out by NCSoft in 2004.
My main point was that these games suffer from the wake of WOW because its so hard for indie companies (Like Adventurine) to get a publisher to bank roll things like polish, marketing, infrastructure, hardware, etc. Adventurine announced Darkfall in 2001 and didn't get to launch until 2009 because they had such a hard time finding a publisher.
By the way......Lineage 2 (2004) used to field 500 man battles for castle sieges in an open seamless world with no instances or zones....much harder to do when you have 3rd person view and all the possible camera angles to deal with than just a FPV.
So, to appeal to more casual gamers.....they mold a MMORPG into something more similar to casual games. They remove many of the barriers to entry for them and ultimately turn the game into more of a hack n' slash action focused game than a hard knocks, virtual life simulation that focuses more on adventuring and socializing.
WOW hits the scenes and knocks it out the park. It pulled in probably close to 9-10 million new gamers into the MMO industry and now, the only way a AAA game publisher will touch a MMO is if it can appeal to this new modern MMO market (which seems to be more focused on action based combat moreso than socializing & exploration)
Which is why games like Darkfall & Mortal Online (traditional type hard knocks MMORPGs) dangle in the wind for years and years without a production company to pick their game and put in the resources needed to polish it up and get it ready for launch.
Because games like DF & MO didn't have the bank roll to produce a game on par with some of the other big titles, they release with 4-5 year old technology, full of bugs, half of the features promised implemented, and a full of lag and crashes because they don't have the money invested in the hardware & infrastructure.....making the game unplayable even for the old school MMORPG types.
Launch is a failure and everyone points at the failed experiement and says SEE.....Traditional Sandbox MMOs are terrible!
For me (former Ultima Online player) Mortal Online on paper was the second coming of UO...finally a place to call home. (Literally....i was excited about player housing) Yet I log in and the game is half finished with graphics on par with EQ1 and is generally unplayable. Had MO had the dollars to put in production, software, hardware, etc.....it could have been a contender. Nothing like WOW....but something on par with what EVE has been able to do.
Well, All I can say is that MMO gaming IS a business. There is very little demand for the type game you want. I guess you could still play the paper and pencil game???
And to say WoW did it all to you is silly. Wow did not invent the "theme park" MMO. It perfected it. The reason it has 12,000,000 subs is not just because it is easy to play (Some of the content is damned hard) They got those subs because WoW is a great game and lots of fun to play. Ok so it is accessable to almost anyone. Isn't that what you would want in a game you made? Wouldn't you want as many people as possible playing it and paying you? I would.
Trying to shine up an old model T and put it on the market is only going to attract Collectors and those who suffer from nostalga magliosa.
Go on be honest you played WOW for quite a long time didn't you.
PS I quit EvE after 2.5 years leaving 50+ ships and 2 billion isk, not because it was too hard .... but because it was too boring. waiting and waiting for someone to come .. and then going and working with spreadsheets to make more isk. I have to ad mit tho that it was beautiful to behold. I found too that to get into the fun part of the endgame (which also entailed hoursof waiting) you had to just about devote your life to the game so you could be there when something happened.
I cancelled my Eve sub after 1 day of WOW trial. WoW is the best mmo I have seen so far. The rest I have tried ended up like you said.
"Because games like DF & MO (add by me .... and many many more) didn't have the bank roll to produce a game on par with some of the other big titles, they release with 4-5 year old technology, full of bugs, half of the features promised implemented, and a full of lag and crashes because they don't have the money invested in the hardware & infrastructure.....making the game unplayable even for the old school MMORPG types.' added by wahala99 --->Not to mention clunky annimation.
Sorry I don't mean to put your desire for the good old days down, I just don't want to bring them back.
The counter-point here comes down to 2 words.... market saturation. You'll note that a very large number of the games that came after WOW which tried to appeal to the same sort of crowd aren't doing particulary well.
You're right, they aren't. I tried them all and my stance on those games after playing through the first 20 or so levels is that......I can do all of this in WOW already and I already have a history and established characters in that game. Why should I kill 20,000 more quest monsters to get to level cap so I can start enjoying endgame when I can just log back into WOW, where I have my custom mods, interface and network of friends? Aion, Warhammer.....its the same trick pony. (aside from wings and public quests)
The reason is not neccesarly that they all suck as games, it's that they have too little to differentiate themselves from many similar products out there. Even if the market segment that you are going after is the largest one around by far, it's still going to have a finite number of customers and if you have to share those customers with alot of other competitors then your chances of doing well are not good. On the other hand, even if the market segment that you are going after is quite small by comparision but you are the only one serving that market segment you can be quite profitable. That's why games like EVE, even though they serve a smaller market, can do quite well for themselves.
Honestly, also I think you sell "casual gamers" a bit short. I don't think thier problem is so much with complexity, or suffering penalties for failure/death as it is with time sinks/grind.
I don't think most would mind being penalized rather harshley for 10-15 minutes after death (in whatever form that might take) if death occurs with any frequency....or being penalized very harshly for death/failure if it occurs rarely. The problem sets in when you make them do 4-6 hours worth of work/grind to recover from something that occurs frequently. It's the fact that in many games....simply PLAYING the game to achieve items/exp is more often work/grind then fun.
Agreed.....and I can only think of one game that really stuck it to you like that and it was Lineage 2 (Korean Grinder...suprise suprise) You have to strike the right balance....but just as too stiff of a death penalty is bad for overall game play, so is too light of a death penalty. It's fustrating to play a team based game when your team is filled with a bunch of solo artists that do things with wreckless abandon.
Note also that I think you are misjudging potential audiances a bit. The typical "casual" MMO today, targets the solo/achiever type of personalty with gear/advancment/title type rewards for grinding. That market certainly is pretty decent sized..... but if you look at the broader spectrum of online activity...the VAST majority audience is actualy the Social personalty type (facebook, linked-in, etc), they actualy dwarf they typical "gamer" audiance in numbers. Now generaly they aren't drawn much to games....but an MMO that could tap into a portion of that audience could do extremely well for itself.
Good points, but I still believe that those non-gamer social types that do all the farmville facebook crap would not be good customers in a MMO setting. (generally speaking) There is enough competition in MMORPG gaming these days. The last thing I would want to worry about as a CEO of a MMORPG game is having to compete with the likes of Mafia Wars and Angry Brids because I've catered my game to the ultra casual gamer type in the name of subscriptions.
(By the way.....there are more farmville users than registered twitter accounts. You don't think those big publishers aren't licking their chops to get at that market base. How fun will MMO gaming be when its degenerated into a bunch of Hello Kitty clones?)
I think I'm more of a fan of having games incorporate the death penalty into the game play experience so it provides a somewhat interesting experience even after death and doesn't put off hardcore nor casual players alike. Maybe the spirit world could be a separate world where dying is required to complete some quests. It happens a lot in various fantasy stories, so why not MMORPG's? I don't think death necessarily has to be a punishment, it can become just as much of the game as anything else rather than "run to your corpse" or some other cheap unthoughtful mechanic.
In a new column here at MMORPG.com, writer Adam Janovyak pens his inaugural article, The Rant: Death Penalties Suck. While Adam understands that some feel death penalties add 'challenge' and teamwork to the game, he opines that he doesn't like people in his virtual worlds any better than he does in real life, hence he likes to solo. Death penalties for dying while soloing, well, suck. Read it and check in with your thoughts on our forum.
Making the price for death too high will discourage the casual gamer or in my case, the gamer who just wants to solo a lot because even in a pretend world he still doesn’t like people. If I die tying to finish a quest and get hit with experience debt or negative experience until I level down, I’m just going to get frustrated to the point where I don’t even want to play anymore.
There's a simple solution for those whiners who cry, moan, complain, and throw temper tantrums over games with death penalities among other hardcore challenging game mechanics,, DON'T PLAY THEM!!! Nice and simply put..
This is one reason why MMO's today don't even compare to MMO's of old.. Today, most MMO's spoon feed the player and take their little hand and guide them through the entire game at a easy quick rollercoaster pace.. Most MMO's today are actually created for a larger casual audience as opposed to the actual hardcore powergamer audience.. Which I personally despise.. We need more hardcore, "yes I will use the term hardcore" MMO's for hardcore powergamers that are actual true diehard fans of the genre, whether it's Sci Fi or fantasy...
Hardcore MMO's like the original EQ and Ultima Online were legendary in their own ways, and there really hasn't been a legendary MMO similar to what made those two truly legendary.. Dark Age of Camelot is the closest thing in my mind, along with Vanguard, Shadowbane, and maybe even EQ2.. But those MMO's shared similar styles with Everquest and UO, Shadowbane being more of a mixture of the two, with Vanguard being more of a EQ clone.. And DAOC combined EQ, UO, and implemented a awesome RVR PVP experience.. But it just wasn't hardcore enough in my mind. For example, I didn't like how there was a trail to the quest givers, the area needed to go to complete the quest, etc. It was to easy, and seemed to be for moron's or newbs to MMO's.. This is what I mean.. Same with the travel system. U got to ride on a taxi horse to each town you needed to travel to.. I'd rather see a teleport system implemented for mages and run buffs for classes like druids, rangers, etc. Or If you reach a certain level, you can purchase your own mount..
For example, in Everquest, If you happened to be a class that didn't have a run buff, teleport, mana replenish spell, invisibility, etc, you could ask in ooc for these things and that your willing to pay for the service.. This is one way people made money.. My main was a Druid.. If I didn't feel like grinding that day, I'd sit in EC or port to certain areas and shout OOC, "Druid looking for work, willing to port and SOW for 10-20 plat" or whatever.. I'd do this for a few hours and make some nice money.. Wizards would do the same, and Chanters would sell Clarity, or KEI and go to places like Seb, Karnors castle, etc and make a killing... It was a great way to make money with classes that could do things others couldn't. And the only way you could get these services, was If a class that had this particular ability helped you out.. This is one thing that made EQ so great. The classes were well diversed and every classes was needed for something..
Basically, what I'm saying is these MMO's today are so cheap and ridiculous. Almost every class in certain games are jack of all trade classes, meaning they all can do a little of everything. THAT'S DUMB! If there's something they cant do, well they can buy a potion or scroll with whatever ability they require.. That's ok I guess, but giving every class similar abilities just isn't diversified enough..
People and devs have to remember that MMORPG'S are NOT FPS games! This is one reason why most MMO's today suck horribly.. Devs want to combine the best FPS elements and best MMORPG elements into one game hoping to attract many millions of fans of both genres for maximum profits.. Well, it just hasn't worked out to well for any of them. Every game that has tried this has failed miserably.. The only exception is probably WoW.. But that is more of a EQ clone in EZ mode than a combination of fps and mmo elements...
Now back to my point.. If you are a casual gamer, or happen to be new to MMORPG's, If your a child with ADHD, or If you are one of those lazy fools that want their gaming experience to be spoon fed like a little baby, then I'd recommend not to play a hardcore MMORPG like Everquest that has death penalties and takes a long time to level.. Just don't play the game!! Go play a MMO that fits your style and preference.. But those of you who try to make a case by stating every mmorpg with a death penality is stupid, dumb, frustrating, or whatever other complaint and rant you'd like to make regarding this issue,,, I say to you, "STOP TRYING TO CHANGE AND MOLD EVERY MMORPG TO YOUR PITIFUL FPS STYLE PREFERENCE" Most of you people are FPS fans that have migrated over to MMORPG's, expecting every MMO to be a fast paced easy rollercoaster ride to the top.. Now, there are plenty of these types of horrible MMO/FPS RPG's for you to enjoy until your fingers bleed, but stop trying to change true hardcore sandbox MMORPG's for the true fans of this once great genre!
Rallithon Oakthornn (Retired Heirophant of the 60th season)
The death penalty (if any) in a game fulfills more than one function.
In a game where antisocial people perversely congregate to play despite the fact that others are playing alongside them, one of those functions may be to keep those APs from being able to use their deaths (or actions leading frequently or inevitably to their deaths) to annoy anyone or everyone else.
This is, of course, necessarily harsh to those APs (Antisocial Persons) who do not seek to annoy others in that manner. The alternative for those who cannot stand that harshness (cannot tolerate it for the sake of others) is to seek out truly single-player games.
If you play a multi-player game by yourself, you are still not alone in the world, and the very design of the game world inevitably reflects that; this is an ineluctable fact.
Casilda Tametomo, Priestess of Soldeus | AKA Lepida Aegis-Imperium.com
«Si oblitus fuero usque ad finem omnia opera eorum»
Comments
Good points, but my comparison to PnP games was only to highlight that traditional MMORPG gaming was more of a hobby than "just a game".....and that the issue many traditional MMORPG types have with modern MMOs is that they are turning a deep and rich hobby into "just a game".
I also agree with you in that heavy (or even mild) death penalties don't work in all types of games. If your penalizing players by risking their gear in a gear centric game, then yes....you have a problem. If your playing a PvP Korean Grinder that takes 8 hours to get 2% of a level and you loose 2% per death.....you have a problem. If items are common place, then full loot on death is less of an issue....etc.
And one last thing, a 6ft leap over a sandbox is no less difficult than a 6 foot leap over a spiked pit.......BUT the consequences are COMPLETELY different. It makes you think before you do something; it makes you aware of your environment and surroundings, the risk you take adds a little more to succeeding. It's those adrenaline rushes that I miss the most.
This is a great comment on the issue! Well put!
^
It's simple...
There are some games where the death penalty forces you to group more than solo... Those that would rather have not just a challenge in a fight, but a meaning in death other than just respawning back at home will like this more regardless if they are a pure solo-er or an avid partier.
Some games don't have a death penalty at all (respawning back is a time penalty on your real life and not really something that hurts your character). These games can often feel stale and more like a game than an alternate world... a quick piece of fun.
There are reasons for both styles and reasons for many ranges of death penalties and one should find those games for themselves. Let the game developers decide on what they want to cater towards.
If you want to solo and there's a large death penalty, best prepare yourself or play a less penalizing game. It's not the game's fault that it doesn't want to spread its wings to everyone and anyone. And it shouldn't need to want to.
I liked the death penalties in Everquest. Made going into a dungeon or somewhere deep exhiliarating for the sheer fact that if you died, you not only lost experience you had to retrieve your corpse or you lost everything.
He who keeps his cool best wins.
I will say this -- actually losing your corpse in everquest -- and it did happen to some people -- was not a pleasant affair. Consider going from very good gear to plain crafted and the sheer amount of time lost.
Thing is there were entire guilds that broke up // people left the game from the guild failing a raid in fear and PRACTICALLY EVERYONE IN THE GUILD losing all of their items.
Ok, I was thinking if I should discuss this article, but the urge is just stronger than me. This is like the worse article about MMOs I have ever seen. So now an article is considered pure bitching about "boohoo, they killed me and I dont feel like a superhero anymore"... jesus... and what the hell was that real world scenario? you really think GM will care that some friend of yours fiddled with your computer? its your stupidity, not fault of the game for christs sake... I will not even comment on your ideas to change death penalty, since its jsut your opinion.... one final objection I have against the article is: why the hell you talk in plural? "nothing we can do ... our suffering"
Duely noted, but most people learn (and learn quick) when they fall on their faces like that. There is no doubt in my mind that MMORPG games lose players to tough losses like that.....but maybe MMORPG gameing wasn't their cup of tea in the first place?
The people who are truely interested in the Genere typically learn from those scenarios, and ultimately turn out to be better players in the long run. Good players are 10x more enjoyable to play with than bad ones.....which leads to a better community and a better overall game experience.
Also, that plain crafted gear your forced to wear all of the sudden becomes a lot more valueable to you once you realize your not 10ft tall and bullet proof.
I get what your trying to say, but thats not the reality of our current MMO situation
*Takes off MMORPG Ideolog Hat* *Puts on Business Hat*
The Game Developers have found that there are more "Other" types of gamers than "traditional MMORPG" gamers. They want to bring those "other" games into the genere because they can charge monthly subscriptions (or cash shops) with online games.
So, to appeal to more casual gamers.....they mold a MMORPG into something more similar to casual games. They remove many of the barriers to entry for them and ultimately turn the game into more of a hack n' slash action focused game than a hard knocks, virtual life simulation that focuses more on adventuring and socializing.
WOW hits the scenes and knocks it out the park. It pulled in probably close to 9-10 million new gamers into the MMO industry and now, the only way a AAA game publisher will touch a MMO is if it can appeal to this new modern MMO market (which seems to be more focused on action based combat moreso than socializing & exploration)
Which is why games like Darkfall & Mortal Online (traditional type hard knocks MMORPGs) dangle in the wind for years and years without a production company to pick their game and put in the resources needed to polish it up and get it ready for launch.
Because games like DF & MO didn't have the bank roll to produce a game on par with some of the other big titles, they release with 4-5 year old technology, full of bugs, half of the features promised implemented, and a full of lag and crashes because they don't have the money invested in the hardware & infrastructure.....making the game unplayable even for the old school MMORPG types.
Launch is a failure and everyone points at the failed experiement and says SEE.....Traditional Sandbox MMOs are terrible!
For me (former Ultima Online player) Mortal Online on paper was the second coming of UO...finally a place to call home. (Literally....i was excited about player housing) Yet I log in and the game is half finished with graphics on par with EQ1 and is generally unplayable. Had MO had the dollars to put in production, software, hardware, etc.....it could have been a contender. Nothing like WOW....but something on par with what EVE has been able to do.
Well, All I can say is that MMO gaming IS a business. There is very little demand for the type game you want. I guess you could still play the paper and pencil game???
And to say WoW did it all to you is silly. Wow did not invent the "theme park" MMO. It perfected it. The reason it has 12,000,000 subs is not just because it is easy to play (Some of the content is damned hard) They got those subs because WoW is a great game and lots of fun to play. Ok so it is accessable to almost anyone. Isn't that what you would want in a game you made? Wouldn't you want as many people as possible playing it and paying you? I would.
Trying to shine up an old model T and put it on the market is only going to attract Collectors and those who suffer from nostalga magliosa.
Go on be honest you played WOW for quite a long time didn't you.
PS I quit EvE after 2.5 years leaving 50+ ships and 2 billion isk, not because it was too hard .... but because it was too boring. waiting and waiting for someone to come .. and then going and working with spreadsheets to make more isk. I have to ad mit tho that it was beautiful to behold. I found too that to get into the fun part of the endgame (which also entailed hoursof waiting) you had to just about devote your life to the game so you could be there when something happened.
I cancelled my Eve sub after 1 day of WOW trial. WoW is the best mmo I have seen so far. The rest I have tried ended up like you said.
"Because games like DF & MO (add by me .... and many many more) didn't have the bank roll to produce a game on par with some of the other big titles, they release with 4-5 year old technology, full of bugs, half of the features promised implemented, and a full of lag and crashes because they don't have the money invested in the hardware & infrastructure.....making the game unplayable even for the old school MMORPG types.' added by wahala99 --->Not to mention clunky annimation.
Sorry I don't mean to put your desire for the good old days down, I just don't want to bring them back.
If Ya Ain't Dyin, Ya Ain't Tryin
Seems like I read about a really elite player in EQ at "the highest level" (or something like that many many hours of play to get there anyway), who committed suicide after losing the char to permadeath. Those were serious gamers.
Was this guy
EQ is very time-consuming for many people, and there has been one well-publicized suicide of an EverQuest user named Shawn that resulted in his mother, Liz, founding Online Gamers Anonymous
I took his last name out of the cut and paste ... well just because it seemed like the right thing to do.
OK SORRY Wrong info ... he did not lose char ... it was something else while he was playing ... no one really knows why. He was disturbed and had other problems too .. so disregard this post. The rumor I heard was wrong.
SORRY
If Ya Ain't Dyin, Ya Ain't Tryin
Vanguard in mid-beta actually came up with a decent method of fixing this situation.
If you died and you were unable to retrieve your corpse, there was an NPC in the game that after a FULL WEEK you could BUY your items back from (it wasn't exactly cheap either but not so expensive that you would not buy something back that you didnt replace with better in the meantime).
So death at the max was losing all of your items for a week then having to do the equivalent of buying a mount to get all your stuff back (getting just key equipment back was much cheaper of course -- it was ala carte).
----
But no -- in early everquest, losing your entire progression and having to start from the beginning was just malevolent. I will put it this way -- if that death penalty were in-force today -- if you lost your corpse over the weekend in wow and had crafted equipment -- would your raid guild that you lost a years worth of progress in keep you or dump you? They are in 8, you are now at 0.
The counter-point here comes down to 2 words.... market saturation. You'll note that a very large number of the games that came after WOW which tried to appeal to the same sort of crowd aren't doing particulary well.
The reason is not neccesarly that they all suck as games, it's that they have too little to differentiate themselves from many similar products out there. Even if the market segment that you are going after is the largest one around by far, it's still going to have a finite number of customers and if you have to share those customers with alot of other competitors then your chances of doing well are not good. On the other hand, even if the market segment that you are going after is quite small by comparision but you are the only one serving that market segment you can be quite profitable. That's why games like EVE, even though they serve a smaller market, can do quite well for themselves.
Honestly, also I think you sell "casual gamers" a bit short. I don't think thier problem is so much with complexity, or suffering penalties for failure/death as it is with time sinks/grind.
I don't think most would mind being penalized rather harshley for 10-15 minutes after death (in whatever form that might take) if death occurs with any frequency....or being penalized very harshly for death/failure if it occurs rarely. The problem sets in when you make them do 4-6 hours worth of work/grind to recover from something that occurs frequently. It's the fact that in many games....simply PLAYING the game to achieve items/exp is more often work/grind then fun.
Note also that I think you are misjudging potential audiances a bit. The typical "casual" MMO today, targets the solo/achiever type of personalty with gear/advancment/title type rewards for grinding. That market certainly is pretty decent sized..... but if you look at the broader spectrum of online activity...the VAST majority audience is actualy the Social personalty type (facebook, linked-in, etc), they actualy dwarf they typical "gamer" audiance in numbers. Now generaly they aren't drawn much to games....but an MMO that could tap into a portion of that audience could do extremely well for itself.
Darkfall was released on 5 year old tech, crashed, is buggy and laggy? Are we playing the same game?
Darkfall is lightyears ahead of most MMOs in terms of tech. Can other games support 500 man battles with real time FPS combat, no instances and no zones? Didn't think so.
I have only skimmed over the replies so I may be repeating what someone else has already said.
There are several reasons to play solo. I only have a little time (<2 hours, depending on game) but want to get in a little game play. I am really tired of all the “politics” of guild/faction/team play and just want a little fun. I am in a really bad mood and know that I would be an A** to anyone who joined up with me, just let me kill and calm down some.
None of these invalidates my enjoyment of running in a group. However, if the penalty for dying solo (we know there is no way to do it all) is the same as dying in a group (presumably well balanced) then there is less and less reason to play solo. If the only time I can play a given game, without tons of penalties, is when I have a ton of spare time, while in a good and social mood, it may not be worth the $15 a month to keep an account.
On the other hand, if the death penalty were scaled to how large a group I am in it would be much more balanced. Even the “pick your penalty” option is a good idea. If solo it may not bother me to be raised back in town for a minor cost. In a group they may need me back sooner so I pay a higher price and get raised in the area. Or in a really critical need I can pay an even larger cost and get raised right next to the group leader.
Now, I can understand that having servers query every person that dies could be a serious drain on resources. At a guess that is the biggest reason for death being handled the way it is. So instead just base the death tax on how large a group you are in at the time of death. Sure, you may get those people who drop from a group just before dying. But if they are spending that much time watching when to jump ship they are not really assisting the group so may find themselves black listed.
Either of these ideas (selected cost or scaled cost) could increase the enjoyment of solo play. More enjoyment equals more players. More players equals more revenue. That is a point that is hard to argue with.
I was speaking more of Mortal Online, which uses the Unreal Engine. Lineage 2 was the first game to use the Unreal Engine in a MMORPG setting and it was put out by NCSoft in 2004.
My main point was that these games suffer from the wake of WOW because its so hard for indie companies (Like Adventurine) to get a publisher to bank roll things like polish, marketing, infrastructure, hardware, etc. Adventurine announced Darkfall in 2001 and didn't get to launch until 2009 because they had such a hard time finding a publisher.
By the way......Lineage 2 (2004) used to field 500 man battles for castle sieges in an open seamless world with no instances or zones....much harder to do when you have 3rd person view and all the possible camera angles to deal with than just a FPV.
I think I'm more of a fan of having games incorporate the death penalty into the game play experience so it provides a somewhat interesting experience even after death and doesn't put off hardcore nor casual players alike. Maybe the spirit world could be a separate world where dying is required to complete some quests. It happens a lot in various fantasy stories, so why not MMORPG's? I don't think death necessarily has to be a punishment, it can become just as much of the game as anything else rather than "run to your corpse" or some other cheap unthoughtful mechanic.
There's a simple solution for those whiners who cry, moan, complain, and throw temper tantrums over games with death penalities among other hardcore challenging game mechanics,, DON'T PLAY THEM!!! Nice and simply put..
This is one reason why MMO's today don't even compare to MMO's of old.. Today, most MMO's spoon feed the player and take their little hand and guide them through the entire game at a easy quick rollercoaster pace.. Most MMO's today are actually created for a larger casual audience as opposed to the actual hardcore powergamer audience.. Which I personally despise.. We need more hardcore, "yes I will use the term hardcore" MMO's for hardcore powergamers that are actual true diehard fans of the genre, whether it's Sci Fi or fantasy...
Hardcore MMO's like the original EQ and Ultima Online were legendary in their own ways, and there really hasn't been a legendary MMO similar to what made those two truly legendary.. Dark Age of Camelot is the closest thing in my mind, along with Vanguard, Shadowbane, and maybe even EQ2.. But those MMO's shared similar styles with Everquest and UO, Shadowbane being more of a mixture of the two, with Vanguard being more of a EQ clone.. And DAOC combined EQ, UO, and implemented a awesome RVR PVP experience.. But it just wasn't hardcore enough in my mind. For example, I didn't like how there was a trail to the quest givers, the area needed to go to complete the quest, etc. It was to easy, and seemed to be for moron's or newbs to MMO's.. This is what I mean.. Same with the travel system. U got to ride on a taxi horse to each town you needed to travel to.. I'd rather see a teleport system implemented for mages and run buffs for classes like druids, rangers, etc. Or If you reach a certain level, you can purchase your own mount..
For example, in Everquest, If you happened to be a class that didn't have a run buff, teleport, mana replenish spell, invisibility, etc, you could ask in ooc for these things and that your willing to pay for the service.. This is one way people made money.. My main was a Druid.. If I didn't feel like grinding that day, I'd sit in EC or port to certain areas and shout OOC, "Druid looking for work, willing to port and SOW for 10-20 plat" or whatever.. I'd do this for a few hours and make some nice money.. Wizards would do the same, and Chanters would sell Clarity, or KEI and go to places like Seb, Karnors castle, etc and make a killing... It was a great way to make money with classes that could do things others couldn't. And the only way you could get these services, was If a class that had this particular ability helped you out.. This is one thing that made EQ so great. The classes were well diversed and every classes was needed for something..
Basically, what I'm saying is these MMO's today are so cheap and ridiculous. Almost every class in certain games are jack of all trade classes, meaning they all can do a little of everything. THAT'S DUMB! If there's something they cant do, well they can buy a potion or scroll with whatever ability they require.. That's ok I guess, but giving every class similar abilities just isn't diversified enough..
People and devs have to remember that MMORPG'S are NOT FPS games! This is one reason why most MMO's today suck horribly.. Devs want to combine the best FPS elements and best MMORPG elements into one game hoping to attract many millions of fans of both genres for maximum profits.. Well, it just hasn't worked out to well for any of them. Every game that has tried this has failed miserably.. The only exception is probably WoW.. But that is more of a EQ clone in EZ mode than a combination of fps and mmo elements...
Now back to my point.. If you are a casual gamer, or happen to be new to MMORPG's, If your a child with ADHD, or If you are one of those lazy fools that want their gaming experience to be spoon fed like a little baby, then I'd recommend not to play a hardcore MMORPG like Everquest that has death penalties and takes a long time to level.. Just don't play the game!! Go play a MMO that fits your style and preference.. But those of you who try to make a case by stating every mmorpg with a death penality is stupid, dumb, frustrating, or whatever other complaint and rant you'd like to make regarding this issue,,, I say to you, "STOP TRYING TO CHANGE AND MOLD EVERY MMORPG TO YOUR PITIFUL FPS STYLE PREFERENCE" Most of you people are FPS fans that have migrated over to MMORPG's, expecting every MMO to be a fast paced easy rollercoaster ride to the top.. Now, there are plenty of these types of horrible MMO/FPS RPG's for you to enjoy until your fingers bleed, but stop trying to change true hardcore sandbox MMORPG's for the true fans of this once great genre!
Rallithon Oakthornn
(Retired Heirophant of the 60th season)
The death penalty (if any) in a game fulfills more than one function.
In a game where antisocial people perversely congregate to play despite the fact that others are playing alongside them, one of those functions may be to keep those APs from being able to use their deaths (or actions leading frequently or inevitably to their deaths) to annoy anyone or everyone else.
This is, of course, necessarily harsh to those APs (Antisocial Persons) who do not seek to annoy others in that manner. The alternative for those who cannot stand that harshness (cannot tolerate it for the sake of others) is to seek out truly single-player games.
If you play a multi-player game by yourself, you are still not alone in the world, and the very design of the game world inevitably reflects that; this is an ineluctable fact.
«Si oblitus fuero usque ad finem omnia opera eorum»