Game was fine before Cata now they change all the rules and makes it mandatory to CC mobs, i call BS to that. Peoples plays to have fun not to wipe non-stop just because you cant /dance at the right time on a boss fight. Cause Boss fight have becomes that, a complicated dance, you need to get the right moves down at the precise time or you die. Anyway i bought Cata just to check out the new zones and i'm not gonna stay sub more than a month.
I don't get why its the games fault that you can't do a heroic without wiping. I would say that never having a danger factor or deaths would make the game bland and too easy. I have to draw the line here...if you can't do it just say so don't blame Blizzard for your inablility to win. Also I think people should realize as Blizz has that the days of stand battles is over (tank and spank) since alot of the new games are action. If you can't dance the dance get off the floor.
Ok, as now all became as it should: no portals, heroic is heroic, pug = shit, wipe = fun, raids are for elite masters only, guild must rule all & somehow get it's own level, noobs leave game.
All good, all fixed.
Now I can tell: end game of WoW is total bodrum! Nothing to do, boring as hell, annoying to death.
I'm noob & happy to be such, rather then get master status in game by doing same thing over & over, in real life hard boring effort can bring you nice fruit, in game it just boring. I'm noob but I'm not tard or masochist.
Game must be FUN, it nothing but game, only WoW end game can't be fun as you have 100% nothing to do if you are not at master class & love repetitive stuff to grind.
So all who wanted WoW became hard (it not even that hars as it long and annoying) & boring at the end now can be happy: high level noobs will leave & let them play alone.
Reminds me Runescape in 2007, with 5 million subscribers, happiness & then total game change. Ask them now about how they felt when lost customers? Did they got anyone back? And loose is way more easy then get any new or even old back. WoW got 12 million attracted by *bad* game WotLK, as it was easy casual game opened to anyone and at least fun of running HC at the end, Now it very good for exceptional players & guys who ignore what boring means.
Question: how many % out of 12 mil are such players?
Good luck to find sub especially as some new interesting games coming soon. WoW still old game, so I don't believe many will continue to play new content for leave after maximum level. Game is fun for begginers now (find it too easy to level as well) but offers nothing for end level.
try before buy, even if it's a game to avoid bad surprises. Worst surprises for me: Aion, GW2
Answering the original post, so i apologise if anyone has already said this.
A few of the major complaints over the past two expansions and few years have been that dungeons/raids were too easy, dungeon finder had made grouping meaningless and there was no major advantage unless you were hardcore PvP or raiders to being in a guild.
I personally think that Blizzard have addressed all three of those particular complaints very well with this expansion. They have given meaning back to guilds by the experience and perk systems as well as the achievements for guild runs, and by increasing the difficulty of the dungeons/raids have also given some meaning back to grouping with people you know and trust.
I fail to see at the moment how this is a major disadvantage? I have PUG'ed a few dungeon runs and it has been painful, but i have also played a few where it has been fine, but the best ones have been running with my own guild.
I also love the way that dungeons have been created as mini raid environments where you need to learn a few tactics now instead of plain tank and spank as it now gets people ready to face a raiding environment. Add to that the changes that mean you actually need to know yor class to contribute to a group again, i am all for it so far.
It must be Thursday, i never could get the hang of Thursdays.
The increased difficulty is not the huge issue here IMHO. It's merely a temporary annoyance. A couple of raid tiers down the road, people will be LOLAoEing them in no time flat and Mr. Noob in his crap greens and blues will be carried through without a problem, so that he can go cash in and get rewarded with what used to be raid rewards.
Meanwhile, the raiders will be busy grinding the same stuff over and over again for... what... 6 months +/- a couple, only to see their hard earned gear turn into stuff that Mr. Noob will get effortlessly in the heroics whenever the next tier of raiding is released.
I see no indication that Cataclysm is going to be any different than Wrath in the long run. If Blizzard is working on something that will change things in a major way, they better start talking. My sub runs out on the 5th and it will take something major for me to change my mind at this stage. Why should I waste anymore money on fattening Blizzard when Turbine can offer a similar (and in some cases superior) gaming experience (to me at least) with the option to play for free?
I'm a big ol' fluffy carewolf. Be afraid. Be very afraid.
I also love the way that dungeons have been created as mini raid environments where you need to learn a few tactics now instead of plain tank and spank as it now gets people ready to face a raiding environment. Add to that the changes that mean you actually need to know yor class to contribute to a group again, i am all for it so far.
Exactly, and to me this is the real 'casual content', in a good way. I was never a raider type of player in Vanilla, since I didn't want to schedulize my RL because of a computer game. I enjoyed leveling new toons and running dungeons, which were not nerfed to the ground at that time.
The increased difficulty is not the huge issue here IMHO. It's merely a temporary annoyance. A couple of raid tiers down the road, people will be LOLAoEing them in no time flat and Mr. Noob in his crap greens and blues will be carried through without a problem, so that he can go cash in and get rewarded with what used to be raid rewards.
/...
Why should I waste anymore money on fattening Blizzard when Turbine can offer a similar (and in some cases superior) gaming experience (to me at least) with the option to play for free?
I'll reitarate on your reasoning here...
Main Questing line: your end goal must be to destroy the camp of an enemy breed.
First step: you need to assemble a bomb: Can be done in both: you do a collecting quest of several mats.
Second step: you need to do it in a PvP zone with enemy players lurking around you: impossible with Lotro (no extra suspension at all).
Third Step: the final mechanism of the bomb lays on the bottom of a river : impossible to design in Lotro, because no underwater/swimming. (Oh did I forgot to mention the ring WAS found on the bottom of a river in the original story).
Fourth step: once all parts are collected and assembled, you are put on a flying mount to bomb the target from the air on top of that mountain: impossible to do in Lotro - no full designed 3D world, never mind climbing that painted mountain, it can't be done: no flying creatures either (Oh sorry if the original story had flying mounted creatures).
Fifth step : after you bombed the place there is a HUGE crater forever in post Cata questing Changing the zone to a more friendly place for your character... Impossible in Lotro, the place is the same as before, no friendly new place possible.
Sixth step: you are directed to a nearby dungeon to down the big boss of those breed. You call upon a mechanism that supplements for you the needed players IF your guildies and friends are not all on line, searching in auto mode for 2, 3 or more player 24/24 Hrs a day. You randomly meet those adventurers taking all the risks of meeting with strangers (great extra challenge like the old days of RPG's).
So only the first step of a very traditional 6 step MMO questing line can be implemented in Lotro.
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MMO's are on line games with a twist. Blizzard was the first to find that twist.
That's why one game now has 50 times more players than the "free to pay" ones. Stunning financial conclusions.
---
The end game is SIMPLY a game without levels but ALL about challenge and getting to those challenges is a combo of skills, grouping, and further advance the character through gear.
Be that PvP with HUMAN based competiton ranking systems or PVE with the same ranking systems against "impossible" odds for some people.
The builD is being supported through ACHIEVEMENTS with prestigious mounts and titles.
I personally go for prestigious PvP titles , the rest can choose any of those other 1200+ achievements.
Comparing WOW with any other MMO these days is really a thing of the 800lbs Gorilla agaisnt a mouse in both mechanics and content.
Raids are not pugable anymore it requires a dance troop routine style execution in order to complete. This I am ok with let the raiders have their time their glory but for gods sake do not penalise me everywhere else.
RAIDS should never be PUGable!!! They are supposed to be a difficult task to be planned weekly. Not something you can log on and put together in less than an hour. I miss the old Molten Core/BWL days where you had to plan stuff a day or two in advance. People actually were on waiting lists to join good raiding guilds and sat outside of the instance to run a raid with an experienced RAID group.
Epics are given away in this game and it makes me sick. Blizzard decided to give everyone Purple colored items to make them feel better. Sad.
The increased difficulty is not the huge issue here IMHO. It's merely a temporary annoyance. A couple of raid tiers down the road, people will be LOLAoEing them in no time flat and Mr. Noob in his crap greens and blues will be carried through without a problem, so that he can go cash in and get rewarded with what used to be raid rewards.
/...
Why should I waste anymore money on fattening Blizzard when Turbine can offer a similar (and in some cases superior) gaming experience (to me at least) with the option to play for free?
I'll reitarate on your reasoning here...
Main Questing line: your end goal must be to destroy the camp of an enemy breed.
<Questline steps snipped>
So only the first step of a very traditional 6 step MMO questing line can be implemented in Lotro.
-----
MMO's are on line games with a twist. Blizzard was the first to find that twist.
That's why one game now has 50 times more players than the "free to pay" ones. Stunning financial conclusions.
---
The end game is SIMPLY a game without levels but ALL about challenge and getting to those challenges is a combo of skills, grouping, and further advance the character through gear.
Be that PvP with HUMAN based competiton ranking systems or PVE with the same ranking systems against "impossible" odds for some people.
The builD is being supported through ACHIEVEMENTS with prestigious mounts and titles.
I personally go for prestigious PvP titles , the rest can choose any of those other 1200+ achievements.
Comparing WOW with any other MMO these days is really a thing of the 800lbs Gorilla agaisnt a mouse in both mechanics and content.
I've done those nice quests you talk about. They were awesome. I'll give you that. Unfortunately, they're gimmicks in the grand scheme of things. How many times can you replay them before they're about as entertaining as one of those "kill 10 boars" quests in LotRO? Quests changing the world? Yeah, those quests were nice too, but the whole story is so much on rails now, that past the point of doing it once, the sensation of Deja Vu the second time completely ruins the immersion. So although Blizzard managed to take questing to a whole new level in Cataclysm, it strikes me as a lot of effort for very little replay value, which is bad when you rely on people sticking around.
As for your comment about Blizzard being all that. Yeah, they're all that when it comes to marketing and creating a pop culture phenomena. A lot of WoW players don't even know about or have tried other MMOs. Stunning conclusions about the power of marketing. On line game with a twist? I'll give that award to CCP. At least they try to be innovative and have had reasonable success with it.
Finally, regarding your vigorous chest beating. So what? I play GAMES for FUN. At the end of the day, they're just that. I care not about prestigious titles, ranks and achievements. But don't get me wrong. A good challenge can be fun. I've had lots of fun doing hardcore flightsimming for example. Shooting down another player in a WWII fighter plane is a lot more satisfying to me than killing some guy in WoW where half the time, it's my gear vs his or my class vs his that made me win (or lose) rather than skill. Alas, those games don't have fancy titles and achievements, so I don't have anything to show... unfortunately... since it seems to mean so much to you. But by all means, continue stroking your... you know what... while drooling over your fancy titles. Just don't expect the same thing to turn me (or everybody else for that matter) on, if you know what I mean.
I'm a big ol' fluffy carewolf. Be afraid. Be very afraid.
I've done those nice quests you talk about. They were awesome. I'll give you that. Unfortunately, they're gimmicks in the grand scheme of things.
You see dear Faelan, those are not "gimmicks".
The above 6 step questing line sample is based on very expensive development and designer mechanics.
Underwater worlds, true 3D with no longer painted mountains, real time changing world events and other mechanics, they cut very deep into the pockets of game development resources.
While this is apparent in the above questing lines, it is as deep and evolved with the class and end game mechanics of this game which are CONSTANTLY tuned. See the newest patches which arrive even on a daily basis this month.
What people should do is evaluate all other MMO's and their lack of polishment and development resources before spitting out the usual Wow fluff.
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Get over it. If Blizzard does one thing, a thousand haters come in on this site to complain. Too hard, too easy, too grindy, not too grindy, too this too that.
In the end it is not about "gimmicks" it is about resources. And it shows.
I've done those nice quests you talk about. They were awesome. I'll give you that. Unfortunately, they're gimmicks in the grand scheme of things.
You see dear Faelan, those are not "gimmicks".
The above 6 step questing line sample is based on very expensive development and designer mechanics.
Underwater worlds, true 3D with no longer painted mountains, real time changing world events and other mechanics, they cut very deep into the pockets of game development resources.
While this is apparent in the above questing lines, it is as deep and evolved with the class and end game mechanics of this game which are CONSTANTLY tuned. See the newest patches which arrive even on a daily basis this month.
What people should do is evaluate all other MMO's and their lack of polishment and development resources before spitting out the usual Wow fluff.
---
Get over it. If Blizzard does one thing, a thousand haters come in on this site to complain. Too hard, too easy, too grindy, not too grindy, too this too that.
In the end it is not about "gimmicks" it is about resources. And it shows.
Oh, but dear Arnstrong, what if those feel like gimmicks to me? Did you ever stop to read my post or were you too busy reveling in your fanboism? I'm very much aware of how many resources they must have spent on that, which is what makes the whole thing so sad. All that effort and I'm still left with the feeling that it was cool the first time, but the second time they might as well just hand me a "kill 10 boars" quest, because it's going to be about as entertaining. I did the whole level 80-85 thing and the new Worgen/Goblin starter areas, yet I found myself logging back into LotRO once I had done all those nice new shiny quests in WoW. As for the underwater world... hmm... I seem to remember doing that in DAoC, although I never got a chance to explore it much since that was the time I switched to SWG. Making a whole world flyable isn't exactly a new thing either. But yeah, both parts are cool and were fun to explore. It's just not good enough to keep me subscribed past a month.
Don't give me that crap about WoW being deep, evolved and constantly tuned as well. All MMOs, except those on life support, are constantly tuned, for better and for worse. WoW is no better. When it comes to deep and evolved, WoW is not the first MMO that comes to my mind either. That's EVE online. Sorry to burst your bubble mate.
I'll give you one thing though. WoW is polished to the max compared to other MMOs. I don't think it would be a good thing for Blizzard to have all of their playerbase go inspect too many MMOs though. I've met plenty of WoW players who have never tried another MMO, some who even thought WoW was the only MMO. To make matters worse, I've seen quite a few people in LotRO say that they were happy that they decided to try LotRO and that they feel it's so much better than WoW. No, for Blizzard it's better if people live in ignorance.
Finally, I'm not a WoW hater if that's what you think. That would be pretty silly since I'm approaching 100 days played on my main. I've had loads of fun in WoW. I'm just disappointed that besides the fancy new quests and being able to fly around in Azeroth, Cataclysm brings nothing new to the table. Same old end game, which was fun for a while, but no more. So why should I pay for that? Because WoW is oh so popular and polished? Sorry mate, ain't cutting it for me.
Anyway, let's just agree to disagree here and move on.
I'm a big ol' fluffy carewolf. Be afraid. Be very afraid.
Leveling is pretty much casual and fun, while end game is quite hardcore and frustrating.
Sounds like it's just like Vanilla WoW. Well asides from the fact that vanilla WoW took much longer to level and endgame at Vanilla is still harder than Cata's.
Blizzard will start toning down heroics and starter raids as it pushes out more content.
I hate to disappoint the OP, but Rift is not going to satisfy your PvP craving, at least I think according to what you said. Rit has stated that this will be a PvE MMO. PvP events are minor, and they are not concentrating on class balance for PvP either.
Aion was very PvP driven. If you like PvP Aion is a good way to go. I liked the game, but I wanted more PvE. The PvE was just missing something for me. However, I went to the battles and they were pretty fun, quite large, and had multiple objectives. I stopped playing because it was just missing something, something I couldn't put my finger on. But you might like it. I think there's a trial right now.
True Neutral Half-Elf Ranger Mage Follower Of Silvanus
I tried aion and didnt get on with the grind and since everyone of my friends has fled I don't see a reason to return. Am playing rift beta so far so good, I believe pvp will be a ranking system so over time I can login play and make some progress on my character in mass pvp. Also since rift is a full fresh start I will be able to find a good guild and move up the ladder more easily than I can with wow. This is important to me, wow atm to me is a fully group based mmorpg.
Im not online with a group all the time and I want to feel when I am that my efforts to work towards something are worthwhile and I do not want to be limited to gathering professions. Even some serious raiding friends agree with this and only log in to raid.
For the money blizzard recieve I find it mind boggling that they haven't developed more and better options to provide a full encompassing decent gaming experience. Right now cata endgame is so limited in scope it is flabbergasting in correlation to their income/profit. People should not be afraid to ask such questions but some decide to live in the blizzard bubble, well then go nuts with your game maybe someday you will get to understand where I am at.
I am not bashing I feel let down by a company I have invested in. (Online blizzcon tickets and bought some pets for some fun for the mrs and me + to help charity).
I'll just concentrate on the argument that endgame PVE has become too hard, because that's what I mostly do in-game anyways.
If you cannot join a guild and/or make friends to do 5 mans with, it is your own fault. It takes only some initiative and socialising. Even having 1 or 2 friends with you will make PUGging a very viable option.
For you to find this content hard, you must be a pretty bad player. All of the 5 man heroics are pretty forgiving and the concepts are rudimentary: don't stand in the void zone, don't stand infront of the boss when he breaths fire and so on. Are you taking ANY steps to becoming a better player yourself, such as making keybinds, macros and reading up on the correct rotation etc.
Final words:
You are not entitled to anything. You do not get any sympathy for not being capable of the lowest level of organization or play. WOW is a video game, video games get harder towards the end - if you can grasp these concepts, you'll be able to enjoy a much wider variety of games, else stop whining and go play Maple story or whatever game where everyone is equal (in reality we aren't, get in terms with it and don't try to come escape it in an MMO).
When dungeons become harder pugs become a nightmare. The finger pointing always existed even in Everquest it happened but generally bad players in Everquest were quickly weeded out even in pugs but WoW it is much harder what with the Dungeon Finder and all that. So the whole experience becomes really distasteful until you find a good guild or friends who you can party with.
I know how this is as I pugged my way in vanilla WoW. However if you are a good player and others who are also good you may be able to keep a friends list that work. Failing which grit your teeth and pug. I also had to exercise so much self control at being yelled at by people who played badly then blamed the healer but what kept me pugging was the tells from the others in the group who to avoid confrontations told me it was the fault of the guy yelling at me. That helped and often they kicked the guy out and we took another. Patience is what you need in the end and loads of it. I cannot say I enjoyed it but I got to 60 pugging my way to it then joined a raiding guild and quit the game after two weeks as I hated raiding
I'll just concentrate on the argument that endgame PVE has become too hard, because that's what I mostly do in-game anyways.
If you cannot join a guild and/or make friends to do 5 mans with, it is your own fault. It takes only some initiative and socialising. Even having 1 or 2 friends with you will make PUGging a very viable option.
For you to find this content hard, you must be a pretty bad player. All of the 5 man heroics are pretty forgiving and the concepts are rudimentary: don't stand in the void zone, don't stand infront of the boss when he breaths fire and so on. Are you taking ANY steps to becoming a better player yourself, such as making keybinds, macros and reading up on the correct rotation etc.
Final words:
You are not entitled to anything. You do not get any sympathy for not being capable of the lowest level of organization or play. WOW is a video game, video games get harder towards the end - if you can grasp these concepts, you'll be able to enjoy a much wider variety of games, else stop whining and go play Maple story or whatever game where everyone is equal (in reality we aren't, get in terms with it and don't try to come escape it in an MMO).
Regarding your final words: a paying customer is always entitled to something your statement is just simply backwards and for me as a "personal experience" I would like to enjoy my time in the game that I choose to pay to play for. Since I am not I am packing up.
Theres just no point in being in anything but an HC guild anymore, I can HC it like the best of them I have taken twins reverse mode, nefarion in vanilla etc. These days I choose to balance my time in my life instead and the guilds I can choose from with some life schedule cannot cope with the new difficulty.
Going to have to side with the OP on this one. Friends or not, when my sub runs out in 5 months(buy it 6 months at a time) thats it for me. WoW is just done. The games direction is all over the place. PvP has turned into a chore. Hell if you can get into Tol Barad on my server - good frakking luck! The new - there must be equal number of players on both sides crap doesn't work on an unbalanced server where the ratio is 10-1! Blizzard does nothing to fix this. It is not our faults that the Alliance does not wish to participate in PvP. No instead lets punish the Horde players by not allowing them to participate. I have yet to ever see Tol Barad PvP because I can never get in.
Then OMG...forget it..I have a huge blog post that I'll be posting this weekend. It covers Cataclsym and some of the last minute changes that Blizzard implemented before it went live like the stupid battleground rule and tons more. Cataclsym is fitting name for this expansion...sure there is a couple of shining good things...but not enough to offset the all the bad and there is tons of bad! Cataclysm is the worst expansion to hit WoW. Wish I had gotten into beta earlier so I could have seen just how bad this all was - unfortunately I got my invite late in the game. Damn.
For you to find this content hard, you must be a pretty bad player. All of the 5 man heroics are pretty forgiving and the concepts are rudimentary: don't stand in the void zone, don't stand infront of the boss when he breaths fire and so on. Are you taking ANY steps to becoming a better player yourself, such as making keybinds, macros and reading up on the correct rotation etc.
Have you actually done any heroics? Have you done Stonecore on Heroic level? What about any of the raids yet? It is not as cut and dry as you make it seem. There is no room for error now in a heroic...if one person misses a cc or a healer misses a heal it will most likely be a wipe. That means you just wasted 40 minutes to queue - (if it is not a guild run) and then maybe an hour getting to the last boss. It should not take 2+ hours to run a random. The game has gone from being casual friendly to being tuned for players that all they do is play WoW 24/7. It's not that the game is hard...it is mind numbingly easy. It is that Blizzard made it so mobs hit 3 times harder and nerfed the crap out of healers. I have seen good healers with 350+ gear ilevel go OOM on trash pulls! Has nothing to do with mechanics, or not standing in fires or whatever...it has to do with badly tuned and implemented game mechnics - period.
I agree because video games are serious business, and only a small portion of the player base (ie those that don't suck) should be able to see the better half of the endgame content.
This is the problem with WoW in the first place. That only a small portion of the player base doesn't suck. And some of that is thanks to wotlk, which was ridicoulusly easy for everyone except the ultra hardcore. Even casual players like myself need to be challenged.
I agree because video games are serious business, and only a small portion of the player base (ie those that don't suck) should be able to see the better half of the endgame content.
This is the problem with WoW in the first place. That only a small portion of the player base doesn't suck. And some of that is thanks to wotlk, which was ridicoulusly easy for everyone except the ultra hardcore. Even casual players like myself need to be challenged.
Where was this mass post-WoTLK exodus that I'm missing? Usually, if there's a big enough problem, gamers vote with their wallet and simply end their subscription. It happened in WAR, Aion, EQ2, STO, Auto Assault, Tabula Rasa, FFXIV, and tons of other games which have been afflicted with serious issues at one time or another, yet WoW's subscriptions have remained relatively stable, which leads me to believe that the people who actually enjoyed WoTLK outnumbered its vocal detractors.
I'm feeling pretty burned as well. Cataclysm sounded so much better on paper to me then how it actually played out. I was really excited for this expansion and it was nice while leveling 80-85. I love how they have cut scenes and better story telling but the newnesst wore off so quickly. I was right back into my boring routine. It feels like I have already been playing this expansion for a year.
I think it is great they re did the 1-60 experience but I don't level alts. That really didn't benefit me at all and I wonder if it was really worth it. Does this game really have that much new blood coming into it? Maybe it does. I just felt like there could have been just that much more higher end content since that is where players spend most of the time.
And speaking of high end content once it feels exactly same as WoTLK just harder. BC we got heroics and WoTLK expanded and improved on the heroics and revamped raid systems but Cataclysm I don't really feel like anything new was brought to the table. How many expansion we can do the same exact same thing. It is the same blue print over and over.
My average WoW day is consists of logging in, doing my dailies and attempting the daily heroic. Then I log out bored with nothing to do. I say attempt the daily heroic because pugs fail so hard I refuse to use the LFD tool. LFD=Looking for Disappointment. Heroics are actually quite fun and refreshing in a guild group but a lot of times that isn't possible.
I'm not huge into pvp, I do enjoy battlegrounds casually but WoWs Pvp has always been a break from PvE for me. That makes me sad because I really could get into PvP if it had a focus on world RvR type instead of instanced battles. Like warhammer but done right. Wintergasp and Tol Barad are just epic failures at this. I can't consider them world/rvr pvp if battles have timers on them like they do and are not player instigated. They might as well be instanced as far as I'm concerned. They probably would be if they didn't tag a loot pinata raid to it.
The one thing I did like a lot was the new guild systems. Guild Leveling and achievements I think are awesome. For someone just getting into WoW, it is a better time then ever before. But for someone who has been playing for years I just don't think it brings enough to the table.
Remember these are just my opinions and may not be a reflection on how the over all player base feels, so there is no need to argue over it. Don't want to start a fanboy/hater bickering contest. Threads die hard and fast when that happens.
I've highlighted that in red because I couldn't agree more with your point.
I must admit this was the first WoW expansion I wasn't too keen on. Compared to BC and Wrath, Cataclysm just sounded halfarsed to me, basically like they wanted some revamp for the old world and a few extras tacked on the end which you were really paying for. It seemed to me it was more a 'Guitar Heroes: Extra band', expansion rather then a WoW expansion.
I thought I'd give it a go anyway and like the OP I was impressed with the new quests, but I'm done with that on my main in three days. So what now, normal dungeons? Done them in 2 days. Heroics? ah now I'm gated. Are the heroics 'that hard'? Some are more difficult then others, but when you have a LFD tool which takes up to 50 minutes to find a group and then fails on the first two trash pulls and quits, what's the point?
I honestly get the feeling that the 'diificulty' has only been ramped up so people don't blast through the content too quickly, thus Blizzard can keep people stringing along for another month or two. Blizzard must have looked at the forum repsonses they get, the people who attend Blizzcon and said, 'We can feed these guys whatever crap, they'll be back for more, there hopelessly addicted'.
Finally to link in the red text above I do believe Blizzards plan was for people to level up yet another alt, thus they wouldn't be complaining so much about endgame because there having a superfun time on a new character leveling. I think that was overly optimistic idea and ties in with them thinking everyone is addicted. Many people I know and including myself have 4-5 lv80's already, why would any of us want to level up yet another character? It's just another toon to run around SW/Org with.
Like the OP I've quit and I think thats definately the end for me.
For you to find this content hard, you must be a pretty bad player. All of the 5 man heroics are pretty forgiving and the concepts are rudimentary: don't stand in the void zone, don't stand infront of the boss when he breaths fire and so on. Are you taking ANY steps to becoming a better player yourself, such as making keybinds, macros and reading up on the correct rotation etc.
That means you just wasted 40 minutes to queue - (if it is not a guild run) and then maybe an hour getting to the last boss. It should not take 2+ hours to run a random.
an hour to get though a dungeon? Good lord what have they done? seriously if you think that running a dungeon in one hour is long then you need to go play a non mmo type game. Its been a while but if i remember in LOTRO it takes about 2 hours to do some of the early instances. Most MMO's out there need time dedicated to running dungeons/instances. IMO one of reason's I left WOW was because running a heroics in 15-20 min was just dumb and made no sense. MMO's are not designed for casual play and there is enough gaming genres in the market for casuals to play.
For you to find this content hard, you must be a pretty bad player. All of the 5 man heroics are pretty forgiving and the concepts are rudimentary: don't stand in the void zone, don't stand infront of the boss when he breaths fire and so on. Are you taking ANY steps to becoming a better player yourself, such as making keybinds, macros and reading up on the correct rotation etc.
Have you actually done any heroics? Have you done Stonecore on Heroic level? What about any of the raids yet? It is not as cut and dry as you make it seem. There is no room for error now in a heroic...if one person misses a cc or a healer misses a heal it will most likely be a wipe. That means you just wasted 40 minutes to queue - (if it is not a guild run) and then maybe an hour getting to the last boss. It should not take 2+ hours to run a random. The game has gone from being casual friendly to being tuned for players that all they do is play WoW 24/7. It's not that the game is hard...it is mind numbingly easy. It is that Blizzard made it so mobs hit 3 times harder and nerfed the crap out of healers. I have seen good healers with 350+ gear ilevel go OOM on trash pulls! Has nothing to do with mechanics, or not standing in fires or whatever...it has to do with badly tuned and implemented game mechnics - period.
Yes Teala, I have completed most of the heroic 5 mans. And yes, there is a lot of room for errors in spell rotations, using the wrong spells etc. What there is no room for, are monumental errors such as standing next to the boss when he aoes. So in other words you only have to master the very basics that have been in the game since its launch.
The game is still casual friendly, but isn't as welcoming to idiots or people with arthritis. If you cannot step out of a big pool of lava in 2 seconds, I hope they don't let you alone in the traffic.
Finally, no good healer with 350+ gear will go OOM on the trash without using incredibly dumb spells. I am a restoration druid at iLVL 346 and I can comfortably walk out of any trash pack with 60-95% mana (without an innervate). If I just spammed regrowth then I would go OOM pretty quickly, but I know better than that.
Why do you even WANT to be able to complete heroic dungeons. If I sucked so much I couldn't, I wouldn't care. What would you use the gear for? You'll anyway see the raids when they are nerfed later on. You see the dungeons in their normal form - you don't need to see them through on heroic mode again.
Final words (again):
There are many good players that play 10 hours a week and can do heroic dungeons. Add 2-5 hours to that and you can easily raid 2 nights per week and be very succesfull if you have the necessary skills.
... In before "I play 3 hours per week but I still think I'm entitled to epixx so I don't feel inferior to the raider in Stormwind (("
Comments
I don't get why its the games fault that you can't do a heroic without wiping. I would say that never having a danger factor or deaths would make the game bland and too easy. I have to draw the line here...if you can't do it just say so don't blame Blizzard for your inablility to win. Also I think people should realize as Blizz has that the days of stand battles is over (tank and spank) since alot of the new games are action. If you can't dance the dance get off the floor.
Ok, as now all became as it should: no portals, heroic is heroic, pug = shit, wipe = fun, raids are for elite masters only, guild must rule all & somehow get it's own level, noobs leave game.
All good, all fixed.
Now I can tell: end game of WoW is total bodrum! Nothing to do, boring as hell, annoying to death.
I'm noob & happy to be such, rather then get master status in game by doing same thing over & over, in real life hard boring effort can bring you nice fruit, in game it just boring. I'm noob but I'm not tard or masochist.
Game must be FUN, it nothing but game, only WoW end game can't be fun as you have 100% nothing to do if you are not at master class & love repetitive stuff to grind.
So all who wanted WoW became hard (it not even that hars as it long and annoying) & boring at the end now can be happy: high level noobs will leave & let them play alone.
Reminds me Runescape in 2007, with 5 million subscribers, happiness & then total game change. Ask them now about how they felt when lost customers? Did they got anyone back? And loose is way more easy then get any new or even old back. WoW got 12 million attracted by *bad* game WotLK, as it was easy casual game opened to anyone and at least fun of running HC at the end, Now it very good for exceptional players & guys who ignore what boring means.
Question: how many % out of 12 mil are such players?
Good luck to find sub especially as some new interesting games coming soon. WoW still old game, so I don't believe many will continue to play new content for leave after maximum level. Game is fun for begginers now (find it too easy to level as well) but offers nothing for end level.
try before buy, even if it's a game to avoid bad surprises.
Worst surprises for me: Aion, GW2
Answering the original post, so i apologise if anyone has already said this.
A few of the major complaints over the past two expansions and few years have been that dungeons/raids were too easy, dungeon finder had made grouping meaningless and there was no major advantage unless you were hardcore PvP or raiders to being in a guild.
I personally think that Blizzard have addressed all three of those particular complaints very well with this expansion. They have given meaning back to guilds by the experience and perk systems as well as the achievements for guild runs, and by increasing the difficulty of the dungeons/raids have also given some meaning back to grouping with people you know and trust.
I fail to see at the moment how this is a major disadvantage? I have PUG'ed a few dungeon runs and it has been painful, but i have also played a few where it has been fine, but the best ones have been running with my own guild.
I also love the way that dungeons have been created as mini raid environments where you need to learn a few tactics now instead of plain tank and spank as it now gets people ready to face a raiding environment. Add to that the changes that mean you actually need to know yor class to contribute to a group again, i am all for it so far.
It must be Thursday, i never could get the hang of Thursdays.
Let me reiterate here.
The increased difficulty is not the huge issue here IMHO. It's merely a temporary annoyance. A couple of raid tiers down the road, people will be LOLAoEing them in no time flat and Mr. Noob in his crap greens and blues will be carried through without a problem, so that he can go cash in and get rewarded with what used to be raid rewards.
Meanwhile, the raiders will be busy grinding the same stuff over and over again for... what... 6 months +/- a couple, only to see their hard earned gear turn into stuff that Mr. Noob will get effortlessly in the heroics whenever the next tier of raiding is released.
I see no indication that Cataclysm is going to be any different than Wrath in the long run. If Blizzard is working on something that will change things in a major way, they better start talking. My sub runs out on the 5th and it will take something major for me to change my mind at this stage. Why should I waste anymore money on fattening Blizzard when Turbine can offer a similar (and in some cases superior) gaming experience (to me at least) with the option to play for free?
I'm a big ol' fluffy carewolf. Be afraid. Be very afraid.
Exactly, and to me this is the real 'casual content', in a good way. I was never a raider type of player in Vanilla, since I didn't want to schedulize my RL because of a computer game. I enjoyed leveling new toons and running dungeons, which were not nerfed to the ground at that time.
Cannot believe you had to buy it to find out. See my post on coming back to wow http://www.mmorpg.com/discussion2.cfm/post/3979667/What-would-bring-me-back-to-WoW-.html#3979667 they just milking it for all they can.
Asbo
I'll reitarate on your reasoning here...
Main Questing line: your end goal must be to destroy the camp of an enemy breed.
First step: you need to assemble a bomb: Can be done in both: you do a collecting quest of several mats.
Second step: you need to do it in a PvP zone with enemy players lurking around you: impossible with Lotro (no extra suspension at all).
Third Step: the final mechanism of the bomb lays on the bottom of a river : impossible to design in Lotro, because no underwater/swimming. (Oh did I forgot to mention the ring WAS found on the bottom of a river in the original story).
Fourth step: once all parts are collected and assembled, you are put on a flying mount to bomb the target from the air on top of that mountain: impossible to do in Lotro - no full designed 3D world, never mind climbing that painted mountain, it can't be done: no flying creatures either (Oh sorry if the original story had flying mounted creatures).
Fifth step : after you bombed the place there is a HUGE crater forever in post Cata questing Changing the zone to a more friendly place for your character... Impossible in Lotro, the place is the same as before, no friendly new place possible.
Sixth step: you are directed to a nearby dungeon to down the big boss of those breed. You call upon a mechanism that supplements for you the needed players IF your guildies and friends are not all on line, searching in auto mode for 2, 3 or more player 24/24 Hrs a day. You randomly meet those adventurers taking all the risks of meeting with strangers (great extra challenge like the old days of RPG's).
So only the first step of a very traditional 6 step MMO questing line can be implemented in Lotro.
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MMO's are on line games with a twist. Blizzard was the first to find that twist.
That's why one game now has 50 times more players than the "free to pay" ones. Stunning financial conclusions.
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The end game is SIMPLY a game without levels but ALL about challenge and getting to those challenges is a combo of skills, grouping, and further advance the character through gear.
Be that PvP with HUMAN based competiton ranking systems or PVE with the same ranking systems against "impossible" odds for some people.
The builD is being supported through ACHIEVEMENTS with prestigious mounts and titles.
I personally go for prestigious PvP titles , the rest can choose any of those other 1200+ achievements.
Comparing WOW with any other MMO these days is really a thing of the 800lbs Gorilla agaisnt a mouse in both mechanics and content.
Threads like this make me want to go back to WoW.
RAIDS should never be PUGable!!! They are supposed to be a difficult task to be planned weekly. Not something you can log on and put together in less than an hour. I miss the old Molten Core/BWL days where you had to plan stuff a day or two in advance. People actually were on waiting lists to join good raiding guilds and sat outside of the instance to run a raid with an experienced RAID group.
Epics are given away in this game and it makes me sick. Blizzard decided to give everyone Purple colored items to make them feel better. Sad.
I've done those nice quests you talk about. They were awesome. I'll give you that. Unfortunately, they're gimmicks in the grand scheme of things. How many times can you replay them before they're about as entertaining as one of those "kill 10 boars" quests in LotRO? Quests changing the world? Yeah, those quests were nice too, but the whole story is so much on rails now, that past the point of doing it once, the sensation of Deja Vu the second time completely ruins the immersion. So although Blizzard managed to take questing to a whole new level in Cataclysm, it strikes me as a lot of effort for very little replay value, which is bad when you rely on people sticking around.
As for your comment about Blizzard being all that. Yeah, they're all that when it comes to marketing and creating a pop culture phenomena. A lot of WoW players don't even know about or have tried other MMOs. Stunning conclusions about the power of marketing. On line game with a twist? I'll give that award to CCP. At least they try to be innovative and have had reasonable success with it.
Finally, regarding your vigorous chest beating. So what? I play GAMES for FUN. At the end of the day, they're just that. I care not about prestigious titles, ranks and achievements. But don't get me wrong. A good challenge can be fun. I've had lots of fun doing hardcore flightsimming for example. Shooting down another player in a WWII fighter plane is a lot more satisfying to me than killing some guy in WoW where half the time, it's my gear vs his or my class vs his that made me win (or lose) rather than skill. Alas, those games don't have fancy titles and achievements, so I don't have anything to show... unfortunately... since it seems to mean so much to you. But by all means, continue stroking your... you know what... while drooling over your fancy titles. Just don't expect the same thing to turn me (or everybody else for that matter) on, if you know what I mean.
I'm a big ol' fluffy carewolf. Be afraid. Be very afraid.
You see dear Faelan, those are not "gimmicks".
The above 6 step questing line sample is based on very expensive development and designer mechanics.
Underwater worlds, true 3D with no longer painted mountains, real time changing world events and other mechanics, they cut very deep into the pockets of game development resources.
While this is apparent in the above questing lines, it is as deep and evolved with the class and end game mechanics of this game which are CONSTANTLY tuned. See the newest patches which arrive even on a daily basis this month.
What people should do is evaluate all other MMO's and their lack of polishment and development resources before spitting out the usual Wow fluff.
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Get over it. If Blizzard does one thing, a thousand haters come in on this site to complain. Too hard, too easy, too grindy, not too grindy, too this too that.
In the end it is not about "gimmicks" it is about resources. And it shows.
Oh, but dear Arnstrong, what if those feel like gimmicks to me? Did you ever stop to read my post or were you too busy reveling in your fanboism? I'm very much aware of how many resources they must have spent on that, which is what makes the whole thing so sad. All that effort and I'm still left with the feeling that it was cool the first time, but the second time they might as well just hand me a "kill 10 boars" quest, because it's going to be about as entertaining. I did the whole level 80-85 thing and the new Worgen/Goblin starter areas, yet I found myself logging back into LotRO once I had done all those nice new shiny quests in WoW. As for the underwater world... hmm... I seem to remember doing that in DAoC, although I never got a chance to explore it much since that was the time I switched to SWG. Making a whole world flyable isn't exactly a new thing either. But yeah, both parts are cool and were fun to explore. It's just not good enough to keep me subscribed past a month.
Don't give me that crap about WoW being deep, evolved and constantly tuned as well. All MMOs, except those on life support, are constantly tuned, for better and for worse. WoW is no better. When it comes to deep and evolved, WoW is not the first MMO that comes to my mind either. That's EVE online. Sorry to burst your bubble mate.
I'll give you one thing though. WoW is polished to the max compared to other MMOs. I don't think it would be a good thing for Blizzard to have all of their playerbase go inspect too many MMOs though. I've met plenty of WoW players who have never tried another MMO, some who even thought WoW was the only MMO. To make matters worse, I've seen quite a few people in LotRO say that they were happy that they decided to try LotRO and that they feel it's so much better than WoW. No, for Blizzard it's better if people live in ignorance.
Finally, I'm not a WoW hater if that's what you think. That would be pretty silly since I'm approaching 100 days played on my main. I've had loads of fun in WoW. I'm just disappointed that besides the fancy new quests and being able to fly around in Azeroth, Cataclysm brings nothing new to the table. Same old end game, which was fun for a while, but no more. So why should I pay for that? Because WoW is oh so popular and polished? Sorry mate, ain't cutting it for me.
Anyway, let's just agree to disagree here and move on.
I'm a big ol' fluffy carewolf. Be afraid. Be very afraid.
Sounds like it's just like Vanilla WoW. Well asides from the fact that vanilla WoW took much longer to level and endgame at Vanilla is still harder than Cata's.
Blizzard will start toning down heroics and starter raids as it pushes out more content.
Playing: EvE, Warhammer free unlimited trial, Allods Online
Played: Anarchy Online, WoW, Warhammer, AoC, Ryzom. Aion
Strongly Recommend: Ryzom, EvE, Allods Online
I hate to disappoint the OP, but Rift is not going to satisfy your PvP craving, at least I think according to what you said. Rit has stated that this will be a PvE MMO. PvP events are minor, and they are not concentrating on class balance for PvP either.
Aion was very PvP driven. If you like PvP Aion is a good way to go. I liked the game, but I wanted more PvE. The PvE was just missing something for me. However, I went to the battles and they were pretty fun, quite large, and had multiple objectives. I stopped playing because it was just missing something, something I couldn't put my finger on. But you might like it. I think there's a trial right now.
True Neutral Half-Elf Ranger Mage
Follower Of Silvanus
Kings of Chaos! Free to play! Great PvP!
I tried aion and didnt get on with the grind and since everyone of my friends has fled I don't see a reason to return. Am playing rift beta so far so good, I believe pvp will be a ranking system so over time I can login play and make some progress on my character in mass pvp. Also since rift is a full fresh start I will be able to find a good guild and move up the ladder more easily than I can with wow. This is important to me, wow atm to me is a fully group based mmorpg.
Im not online with a group all the time and I want to feel when I am that my efforts to work towards something are worthwhile and I do not want to be limited to gathering professions. Even some serious raiding friends agree with this and only log in to raid.
For the money blizzard recieve I find it mind boggling that they haven't developed more and better options to provide a full encompassing decent gaming experience. Right now cata endgame is so limited in scope it is flabbergasting in correlation to their income/profit. People should not be afraid to ask such questions but some decide to live in the blizzard bubble, well then go nuts with your game maybe someday you will get to understand where I am at.
I am not bashing I feel let down by a company I have invested in. (Online blizzcon tickets and bought some pets for some fun for the mrs and me + to help charity).
I'll just concentrate on the argument that endgame PVE has become too hard, because that's what I mostly do in-game anyways.
If you cannot join a guild and/or make friends to do 5 mans with, it is your own fault. It takes only some initiative and socialising. Even having 1 or 2 friends with you will make PUGging a very viable option.
For you to find this content hard, you must be a pretty bad player. All of the 5 man heroics are pretty forgiving and the concepts are rudimentary: don't stand in the void zone, don't stand infront of the boss when he breaths fire and so on. Are you taking ANY steps to becoming a better player yourself, such as making keybinds, macros and reading up on the correct rotation etc.
Final words:
You are not entitled to anything. You do not get any sympathy for not being capable of the lowest level of organization or play. WOW is a video game, video games get harder towards the end - if you can grasp these concepts, you'll be able to enjoy a much wider variety of games, else stop whining and go play Maple story or whatever game where everyone is equal (in reality we aren't, get in terms with it and don't try to come escape it in an MMO).
When dungeons become harder pugs become a nightmare. The finger pointing always existed even in Everquest it happened but generally bad players in Everquest were quickly weeded out even in pugs but WoW it is much harder what with the Dungeon Finder and all that. So the whole experience becomes really distasteful until you find a good guild or friends who you can party with.
I know how this is as I pugged my way in vanilla WoW. However if you are a good player and others who are also good you may be able to keep a friends list that work. Failing which grit your teeth and pug. I also had to exercise so much self control at being yelled at by people who played badly then blamed the healer but what kept me pugging was the tells from the others in the group who to avoid confrontations told me it was the fault of the guy yelling at me. That helped and often they kicked the guy out and we took another. Patience is what you need in the end and loads of it. I cannot say I enjoyed it but I got to 60 pugging my way to it then joined a raiding guild and quit the game after two weeks as I hated raiding
Regarding your final words: a paying customer is always entitled to something your statement is just simply backwards and for me as a "personal experience" I would like to enjoy my time in the game that I choose to pay to play for. Since I am not I am packing up.
Theres just no point in being in anything but an HC guild anymore, I can HC it like the best of them I have taken twins reverse mode, nefarion in vanilla etc. These days I choose to balance my time in my life instead and the guilds I can choose from with some life schedule cannot cope with the new difficulty.
Maybe this game isnt for casuals and fun anymore.
Going to have to side with the OP on this one. Friends or not, when my sub runs out in 5 months(buy it 6 months at a time) thats it for me. WoW is just done. The games direction is all over the place. PvP has turned into a chore. Hell if you can get into Tol Barad on my server - good frakking luck! The new - there must be equal number of players on both sides crap doesn't work on an unbalanced server where the ratio is 10-1! Blizzard does nothing to fix this. It is not our faults that the Alliance does not wish to participate in PvP. No instead lets punish the Horde players by not allowing them to participate. I have yet to ever see Tol Barad PvP because I can never get in.
Then OMG...forget it..I have a huge blog post that I'll be posting this weekend. It covers Cataclsym and some of the last minute changes that Blizzard implemented before it went live like the stupid battleground rule and tons more. Cataclsym is fitting name for this expansion...sure there is a couple of shining good things...but not enough to offset the all the bad and there is tons of bad! Cataclysm is the worst expansion to hit WoW. Wish I had gotten into beta earlier so I could have seen just how bad this all was - unfortunately I got my invite late in the game. Damn.
Have you actually done any heroics? Have you done Stonecore on Heroic level? What about any of the raids yet? It is not as cut and dry as you make it seem. There is no room for error now in a heroic...if one person misses a cc or a healer misses a heal it will most likely be a wipe. That means you just wasted 40 minutes to queue - (if it is not a guild run) and then maybe an hour getting to the last boss. It should not take 2+ hours to run a random. The game has gone from being casual friendly to being tuned for players that all they do is play WoW 24/7. It's not that the game is hard...it is mind numbingly easy. It is that Blizzard made it so mobs hit 3 times harder and nerfed the crap out of healers. I have seen good healers with 350+ gear ilevel go OOM on trash pulls! Has nothing to do with mechanics, or not standing in fires or whatever...it has to do with badly tuned and implemented game mechnics - period.
This is the problem with WoW in the first place. That only a small portion of the player base doesn't suck. And some of that is thanks to wotlk, which was ridicoulusly easy for everyone except the ultra hardcore. Even casual players like myself need to be challenged.
Where was this mass post-WoTLK exodus that I'm missing? Usually, if there's a big enough problem, gamers vote with their wallet and simply end their subscription. It happened in WAR, Aion, EQ2, STO, Auto Assault, Tabula Rasa, FFXIV, and tons of other games which have been afflicted with serious issues at one time or another, yet WoW's subscriptions have remained relatively stable, which leads me to believe that the people who actually enjoyed WoTLK outnumbered its vocal detractors.
I've highlighted that in red because I couldn't agree more with your point.
I must admit this was the first WoW expansion I wasn't too keen on. Compared to BC and Wrath, Cataclysm just sounded halfarsed to me, basically like they wanted some revamp for the old world and a few extras tacked on the end which you were really paying for. It seemed to me it was more a 'Guitar Heroes: Extra band', expansion rather then a WoW expansion.
I thought I'd give it a go anyway and like the OP I was impressed with the new quests, but I'm done with that on my main in three days. So what now, normal dungeons? Done them in 2 days. Heroics? ah now I'm gated. Are the heroics 'that hard'? Some are more difficult then others, but when you have a LFD tool which takes up to 50 minutes to find a group and then fails on the first two trash pulls and quits, what's the point?
I honestly get the feeling that the 'diificulty' has only been ramped up so people don't blast through the content too quickly, thus Blizzard can keep people stringing along for another month or two. Blizzard must have looked at the forum repsonses they get, the people who attend Blizzcon and said, 'We can feed these guys whatever crap, they'll be back for more, there hopelessly addicted'.
Finally to link in the red text above I do believe Blizzards plan was for people to level up yet another alt, thus they wouldn't be complaining so much about endgame because there having a superfun time on a new character leveling. I think that was overly optimistic idea and ties in with them thinking everyone is addicted. Many people I know and including myself have 4-5 lv80's already, why would any of us want to level up yet another character? It's just another toon to run around SW/Org with.
Like the OP I've quit and I think thats definately the end for me.
an hour to get though a dungeon? Good lord what have they done? seriously if you think that running a dungeon in one hour is long then you need to go play a non mmo type game. Its been a while but if i remember in LOTRO it takes about 2 hours to do some of the early instances. Most MMO's out there need time dedicated to running dungeons/instances. IMO one of reason's I left WOW was because running a heroics in 15-20 min was just dumb and made no sense. MMO's are not designed for casual play and there is enough gaming genres in the market for casuals to play.
Yes Teala, I have completed most of the heroic 5 mans. And yes, there is a lot of room for errors in spell rotations, using the wrong spells etc. What there is no room for, are monumental errors such as standing next to the boss when he aoes. So in other words you only have to master the very basics that have been in the game since its launch.
The game is still casual friendly, but isn't as welcoming to idiots or people with arthritis. If you cannot step out of a big pool of lava in 2 seconds, I hope they don't let you alone in the traffic.
Finally, no good healer with 350+ gear will go OOM on the trash without using incredibly dumb spells. I am a restoration druid at iLVL 346 and I can comfortably walk out of any trash pack with 60-95% mana (without an innervate). If I just spammed regrowth then I would go OOM pretty quickly, but I know better than that.
Why do you even WANT to be able to complete heroic dungeons. If I sucked so much I couldn't, I wouldn't care. What would you use the gear for? You'll anyway see the raids when they are nerfed later on. You see the dungeons in their normal form - you don't need to see them through on heroic mode again.
Final words (again):
There are many good players that play 10 hours a week and can do heroic dungeons. Add 2-5 hours to that and you can easily raid 2 nights per week and be very succesfull if you have the necessary skills.
... In before "I play 3 hours per week but I still think I'm entitled to epixx so I don't feel inferior to the raider in Stormwind
(("