I give a damn. The ip alone will have me at the very least attempting a trial once one is released. As for the lack of three faction? I couldn't care less, I could play DAoC for that.
Any PvP game without a third faction is doomed to be heavily flawed.
Why? Other than DAoC what game used a three way faction pvp mechanic and succeeded? Also what game failed due to only having two? Before you say WAR that game was a failure out of the gate due to stability issues and then even more doomed once we realized the endgame was borked.
I give a damn. The ip alone will have me at the very least attempting a trial once one is released. As for the lack of three faction? I couldn't care less, I could play DAoC for that.
Any PvP game without a third faction is doomed to be heavily flawed.
Why? Other than DAoC what game used a three way faction pvp mechanic and succeeded? Also what game failed due to only having two? Before you say WAR that game was a failure out of the gate due to stability issues and then even more doomed once we realized the endgame was borked.
The major plus side to having 3 factions is when one side completely dominates, the other 2 sides can gang up on the third and beat them down. They will fight each other as well, but when the third comes out in force you can equalize the playing field. I know this doesn't answer any of those questions, except for the first, but it seemed the best post to respond to with this.
I expect it is going to be yet another grab for money by using a well known game world. It might be that WoW set some standards, but you won't win anything on this market by playing to WoW's rules.
I can't get it why they can't do something innovative, yet few days ago an Activision guy claimed that's us grumpy players who destroy innovation and creativity in games. Load of bollocks.
I expect it is going to be yet another grab for money by using a well known game world. It might be that WoW set some standards, but you won't win anything on this market by playing to WoW's rules. I can't get it why they can't do something innovative, yet few days ago an Activision guy claimed that's us grumpy players who destroy innovation and creativity in games. Load of bollocks.
He's right. People are way to picky. When a game comes around that does do something innovative we always find something else and bitch. These games fail because of that and then the next dev team sees that and makes another wow clone.
The major plus side to having 3 factions is when one side completely dominates, the other 2 sides can gang up on the third and beat them down.
That reminds me of Matrix Online which lasted a while but numbers dropped dramatically after the first year but i blame SOE for that,,, the assholes, but yeah 3 or more factions would be nice but 2 faction games can work and is probably a little less risky for them, i mean there could be an expansion or something that changes who is sided with who, we just have to sit back and relax lol. im sure that they said that there willn be new info released in jan, im just waiting on that
I expect it is going to be yet another grab for money by using a well known game world. It might be that WoW set some standards, but you won't win anything on this market by playing to WoW's rules.
I can't get it why they can't do something innovative, yet few days ago an Activision guy claimed that's us grumpy players who destroy innovation and creativity in games. Load of bollocks.
He's right. People are way to picky. When a game comes around that does do something innovative we always find something else and bitch. These games fail because of that and then the next dev team sees that and makes another wow clone.
Really ? Care to support that with any examples ? From my point of view most games which failed lately are blunt clones of the standard grown from times even pre-WoW: levels, grind, pointless boring quests which don't leave a mark on the game world, lack of game mechanics which are actually FUN to play.
Fast example I find reapeting 10 maps in a multiplayer shooter more exciting and fun then any content in MMO games. Why ? Because it is an action packed skill based sandbox where things always go differently and you play with and against players. Furthermore in most MMOs you actions and deeds matter as much as in a multiplayer shooter where they are gone as fast as a new map loads after the scoreboard.
Ok, so yeah I don't trust THQ any further than I could throw a Mac truck... But I don't care if some jerk off says they want to pull 1 million WoW subs to their game. WoW isn't the be all, and end all. Still it did allot of things right for a long time. So its only natural for some "management type" to use WoW as target to emulate. They don't understand the reality of how players feel. And if you want to change that they you have to attempt to communicate.
Just coming on a forum like this and QQing about how they are messing things up does no good at all. Well I guess it might make you feel better... However, if you really love the Warhammer 40k IP then you owe it to yourself to try and communicate with the Devs and let them know what you think is important. Plus it seems to me that this one is far enough out that lots of things are going to be open to change.
omg im soooo tired of this board, everything is just trying to copy wow, or a wow clone, or this or that wow related....its getting to a point I dont want to even visit these forums anymore, mods can there be a moratorium on "wow clone" talk please???
"Well let me just quote the late-great Colonel Sanders, who said…’I’m too drunk to taste this chicken." - Ricky Bobby
Ok, so yeah I don't trust THQ any further than I could throw a Mac truck... But I don't care if some jerk off says they want to pull 1 million WoW subs to their game. WoW isn't the be all, and end all. Still it did allot of things right for a long time. So its only natural for some "management type" to use WoW as target to emulate. They don't understand the reality of how players feel. And if you want to change that they you have to attempt to communicate.
Just coming on a forum like this and QQing about how they are messing things up does no good at all. Well I guess it might make you feel better... However, if you really love the Warhammer 40k IP then you owe it to yourself to try and communicate with the Devs and let them know what you think is important. Plus it seems to me that this one is far enough out that lots of things are going to be open to change.
Any ideas on how to talk to them since there are no official forums for the game?
I give a damn. The ip alone will have me at the very least attempting a trial once one is released. As for the lack of three faction? I couldn't care less, I could play DAoC for that.
Any PvP game without a third faction is doomed to be heavily flawed.
Why? Other than DAoC what game used a three way faction pvp mechanic and succeeded? Also what game failed due to only having two? Before you say WAR that game was a failure out of the gate due to stability issues and then even more doomed once we realized the endgame was borked.
The major plus side to having 3 factions is when one side completely dominates, the other 2 sides can gang up on the third and beat them down. They will fight each other as well, but when the third comes out in force you can equalize the playing field. I know this doesn't answer any of those questions, except for the first, but it seemed the best post to respond to with this.
From a gameplay point of view, there's absolutely no guarantee that a 3rd faction will be an equalizer. In fact, if the game should reward players for successful conquest, what's there to stop a 3rd faction from riding the bandwagon with the strongest faction to get easy loot? And if the game is designed such that there is incentive to preventing your enemies from progressing, it will be a never-ending stalemate and players will complain about how slow the game moves.
Just take a look at WAR when it first released. Zone locks from victory points might have happened once a week, if that. Players cried in outrage over it and they got the domination system. Players want action and progress with their campaigns. They don't want content to come along once a month only to get missed because it happened during an alarm clock raid by some elitist guild.
So if a 3rd faction works as intended, the game is a stalemate and players get bored. If it DOESN'T work as intended, the two stronger sides gang up on a weaker one for free loot.
And then from a lore standpoint, the game just wouldn't make any sense. Let's pretend for the sake of argument that the 3 factions are Imperium, Chaos and Orks. This vaunted "balance of power" would imply that it could be possible for the imperium to team up with either Orks or Chaos to fight the other two. Lore rape if I ever saw it. With 2 factions, the sides are locked into a credible truce/agreement. Chaos can stand manipulating Orks, and Orks love fighting the Imperium. Eldar view Chaos as the great enemy and the Imperium as a clumsy annoyance that they can at least tollerate if it means killing chaos, and the Imperium hates the Eldar but they're smart enough to focus their hate on Chaos and Orks if the Eldar aren't backstabbing them.
I expect it is going to be yet another grab for money by using a well known game world. It might be that WoW set some standards, but you won't win anything on this market by playing to WoW's rules.
I can't get it why they can't do something innovative, yet few days ago an Activision guy claimed that's us grumpy players who destroy innovation and creativity in games. Load of bollocks.
So wait, 3rd person, non targetable combat with minimal UI and a focus on guns and vehicles is just run of the mill for an MMO?
There was an interview published by PC Gamer with one of the DMO crew. In it, they said that somewhere in the first 3 years of this games development (it's been in the works since 2007) they made essentially a 40k skinned WoW and that it was terrible. So they scrapped it and went about finding ways to do the IP justice.
There may not be much available to us in the way of details about this game, but if we can judge the company by their actions, then that alone shows they are willing to do whatever it takes to make DMO a game for the ages.
I give a damn. The ip alone will have me at the very least attempting a trial once one is released. As for the lack of three faction? I couldn't care less, I could play DAoC for that.
Any PvP game without a third faction is doomed to be heavily flawed.
Why? Other than DAoC what game used a three way faction pvp mechanic and succeeded? Also what game failed due to only having two? Before you say WAR that game was a failure out of the gate due to stability issues and then even more doomed once we realized the endgame was borked.
The major plus side to having 3 factions is when one side completely dominates, the other 2 sides can gang up on the third and beat them down. They will fight each other as well, but when the third comes out in force you can equalize the playing field. I know this doesn't answer any of those questions, except for the first, but it seemed the best post to respond to with this.
This is complete theory and myth and playing years upon years of DAoC on 2 different servers I never saw it happen once. the reality is one of the 2 weaker factions was always Hibernia. Albion and Midgard used Hibernia as thier playground and just fought eachother over hybernian keeps.
This is a myth that is constantly propogated on pure theory alone, it just never happened on my servers or any servers I had even heard of.
I give a damn. The ip alone will have me at the very least attempting a trial once one is released. As for the lack of three faction? I couldn't care less, I could play DAoC for that.
Any PvP game without a third faction is doomed to be heavily flawed.
Why? Other than DAoC what game used a three way faction pvp mechanic and succeeded? Also what game failed due to only having two? WoW's PvP failed because it only had two.
WAR, WoW, LotRO, all fail in PvP because they only have two sides.
You either need guild/FFA based PvP, or you need three sides to balance power, or it just flat out doesn't work and you shouldn't bother.
There's a reason DAoC is considered the best PvP MMO to date.
From 9 years of playing DAoC I've seen realms team up with eachother to beat back the dominant realm MANY times. Not only that, but it makes each encounter more dynamic and exciting having to deal with more than one enemy.
If you never heard the term Xrealming, or cross realming, than I doubt you ever actually played DAoC.
Cant answer to LoTRO becuase i never bothered with it but again to reiterate, the failure of those systems has very little to do with the fact that its 2 sides and much more to do that they were poorly designed and or under developed. WoWs pvp is a poorly designed afterthought that doesnt belong in a pvp conversation. all of the regulatory measures WARs pvp was supposed to have to even the sides were cut in development (dogs of war and power balancing)
I have never seen 3 faction pvp in DAoC work the way you are suggesting. it just never happened on tristain server once in 3 years. As far as I am concerned it's a myth as I have never seen or heard of this happening in DAoC in many years of play. But since they introduced the battlegrounds in DAoC, the game started on a downhill spiral IMO.
Man I rmember the VN message boards were filled with spite and poison about how poorly DAoCs pvp system was designed. Its the exact same BS thats going on here for a game that 1. hasnt even been released and 2. we know damn near next to nothing about.
In fact, if the game should reward players for successful conquest, what's there to stop a 3rd faction from riding the bandwagon with the strongest faction to get easy loot?
This is pretty much exactly what happened on each DAoC server I had played on or even heard of. It was always a contest between Midgard and Albion with Hibernia being the pertpetual bitch of every server, unable to do anything except have thier frontier be the stomping ground of the other 2 realms. so what happned? you guessed it, the hibernian lands took a population dive cuase they could never win. Sound familiar? thats becuase it is.
Please understand here that I am talking about my favorite MMO to date: DAoC. It was great and fun PvP and I prefer a 3 faction system, but I think a 2 faction sytem will work better for DMO provided they really put the time in.
regardless, the arguement that 2 factions can never work is extremely short sighted regardless of wether the autobalancing of three factions is a myth or not.
Not a single game has put in any regulatory systems into thier pvp design from the get go. They were usually added to try and bandaid a bad situation (such as exp bonuses for players on a weaker pop side) And I really beleive it will be different with DMO for one reason. They have a built-in balance problem: Space Marines and if they are smart they know it. The fan draw of the Space Marines will most likely knock any or most servers out of balance. Therefore if they have the forthought to add some thematic and fun regulatory systems, thier game will be fine. I look forward to seeing how they deal with this issue.
There are several suggested solutions in this thread and others as to how you could better implement a 2 faction system with good checks and balances.
if they are not going to follow the LORE and make it a free for all then it is a pile of crap. plus everyone it is working on the game should be executed for this blasphemy of destory the warhammer 40k IP
if they are not going to follow the LORE and make it a free for all then it is a pile of crap. plus everyone it is working on the game should be executed for this blasphemy of destory the warhammer 40k IP
If you'd be willing to completely abandon this game and throw a temper tantrum simply because games workshop has decided to make inter-faction relationships more complex than "kill everyone who isn't me", then I'm glad you won't be sticking around to soil this game with your short-sightedness and immaturity.
Killing every alien is the sacred duty of all servants of the Emperor, "Suffer not the unclean to live" is how the Black Templars describe it "Let a wave of repugnance for the enemy wash over you. Let hatred fill you. Hate is good, for our goal is a Human galaxy. We are called by the Emperor with a sacred duty to conquer it in His name" is how an Astarte Chaplain sees it.
The Imperial guard sees it the same way and the guardsmen primer has many prayers and chants urging the men to destroy anything that's not a pure human, and that includes people who are unfortunate to suffer mutations on polluted worlds and they are treated as a vile inconvenience and have no civil rights and have to live in ghettos.
So yeah its very feasible in the lore for the forces of the Imperium to kill everything on sight.
Currently playing:
EVE online (Ruining low sec one hotdrop at a time)
Gravity Rush, Dishonoured: The Knife of Dunwall.
(Waiting for) Metro: Last Light, Company of Heroes II.
if they are not going to follow the LORE and make it a free for all then it is a pile of crap. plus everyone it is working on the game should be executed for this blasphemy of destory the warhammer 40k IP
If you'd be willing to completely abandon this game and throw a temper tantrum simply because games workshop has decided to make inter-faction relationships more complex than "kill everyone who isn't me", then I'm glad you won't be sticking around to soil this game with your short-sightedness and immaturity.
Killing every alien is the sacred duty of all servants of the Emperor, "Suffer not the unclean to live" is how the Black Templars describe it "Let a wave of repugnance for the enemy wash over you. Let hatred fill you. Hate is good, for our goal is a Human galaxy. We are called by the Emperor with a sacred duty to conquer it in His name" is how an Astarte Chaplain sees it.
The Imperial guard sees it the same way and the guardsmen primer has many prayers and chants urging the men to destroy anything that's not a pure human, and that includes people who are unfortunate to suffer mutations on polluted worlds and they are treated as a vile inconvenience and have no civil rights and have to live in ghettos.
So yeah its very feasible in the lore for the forces of the Imperium to kill everything on sight.
Yeah, its also feasible for the LORE to be exactly like the LORE and the game has ALWAYS been open and allowed for allainces between SPECIFIC races. Its so painfully obvious how little 40k fans know about the lore and the 25+year history of the game when they say dumb sh*t like "OMG THEY CANT EVAR ALLIGN EVAR EVAR WAHHHHHHHHHHH." its pretty impressive to hear the complete lack of contectual understanding that the average 40K whiner has about the lore. go back and do your 40k franchise history homework and you will learn you are barking up the wrong tree... I would elaborate but I and many others already have dozens of times on this thread and many others like it, so I am tired of doing so. Some people get it, some dont, There's nothing I can do to change that.
if they are not going to follow the LORE and make it a free for all then it is a pile of crap. plus everyone it is working on the game should be executed for this blasphemy of destory the warhammer 40k IP
If you'd be willing to completely abandon this game and throw a temper tantrum simply because games workshop has decided to make inter-faction relationships more complex than "kill everyone who isn't me", then I'm glad you won't be sticking around to soil this game with your short-sightedness and immaturity.
Killing every alien is the sacred duty of all servants of the Emperor, "Suffer not the unclean to live" is how the Black Templars describe it "Let a wave of repugnance for the enemy wash over you. Let hatred fill you. Hate is good, for our goal is a Human galaxy. We are called by the Emperor with a sacred duty to conquer it in His name" is how an Astarte Chaplain sees it.
The Imperial guard sees it the same way and the guardsmen primer has many prayers and chants urging the men to destroy anything that's not a pure human, and that includes people who are unfortunate to suffer mutations on polluted worlds and they are treated as a vile inconvenience and have no civil rights and have to live in ghettos.
So yeah its very feasible in the lore for the forces of the Imperium to kill everything on sight.
Yeah, its also feasible for the LORE to be exactly like the LORE and the game has ALWAYS been open and allowed for allainces between SPECIFIC races. Its so painfully obvious how little 40k fans know about the lore and the 25+year history of the game when they say dumb sh*t like "OMG THEY CANT EVAR ALLIGN EVAR EVAR WAHHHHHHHHHHH." its pretty impressive to hear the complete lack of contectual understanding that the average 40K whiner has about the lore. go back and do your 40k franchise history homework and you will learn you are barking up the wrong tree... I would elaborate but I and many others already have dozens of times on this thread and many others like it, so I am tired of doing so. Some people get it, some dont, There's nothing I can do to change that.
Don't try to lecture me about 40k lore because I happened to be playing TT and reading the books before you where probably born, I still own my Rogue trader and Space crusade box sets along with the newer releases, and I have two large book cases filled with novels so trust me I know my 40k lore.
Humans only work with aliens in the most dire circumstances and usually when the situation is resolved the alliance ends in bloodshed, in an Imperium of a million worlds populated by endless trillions of people fighting hundreds of thousands of wars for ten thousand years the Imperium has allied with aliens a few dozen times and only under great duress.
So its more likely that humans would fight aliens than work with them, I don't believe an extended alliance for years the way this game portrays it as being feasible, yeah maybe if several hive fleets showed up at the same time or the eye of terror grew to fill half the galaxy all the races might have to unite but an extended alliance for a fairly mundane situation would never happen.
So no I'm not saying they would never ever align I am saying that its very unlikely and any story line DM uses to bring a situation like that alive would rape the lore worse than CS Goto did*
If DM makes every quest so epic that you save the galaxy several times a day with alien help and get a new gun the way WoW quests work the game will be an abomination and perversion of the lore that I will never buy. I honestly would have preferred a 40k MMO to be based on Necromunda or something like that instead of the way DM looks to be.
*Sorry for Goto trolling but I think its relevant to this discussion.
Currently playing:
EVE online (Ruining low sec one hotdrop at a time)
Gravity Rush, Dishonoured: The Knife of Dunwall.
(Waiting for) Metro: Last Light, Company of Heroes II.
if they are not going to follow the LORE and make it a free for all then it is a pile of crap. plus everyone it is working on the game should be executed for this blasphemy of destory the warhammer 40k IP
If you'd be willing to completely abandon this game and throw a temper tantrum simply because games workshop has decided to make inter-faction relationships more complex than "kill everyone who isn't me", then I'm glad you won't be sticking around to soil this game with your short-sightedness and immaturity.
Killing every alien is the sacred duty of all servants of the Emperor, "Suffer not the unclean to live" is how the Black Templars describe it "Let a wave of repugnance for the enemy wash over you. Let hatred fill you. Hate is good, for our goal is a Human galaxy. We are called by the Emperor with a sacred duty to conquer it in His name" is how an Astarte Chaplain sees it.
The Imperial guard sees it the same way and the guardsmen primer has many prayers and chants urging the men to destroy anything that's not a pure human, and that includes people who are unfortunate to suffer mutations on polluted worlds and they are treated as a vile inconvenience and have no civil rights and have to live in ghettos.
So yeah its very feasible in the lore for the forces of the Imperium to kill everything on sight.
Yeah, its also feasible for the LORE to be exactly like the LORE and the game has ALWAYS been open and allowed for allainces between SPECIFIC races. Its so painfully obvious how little 40k fans know about the lore and the 25+year history of the game when they say dumb sh*t like "OMG THEY CANT EVAR ALLIGN EVAR EVAR WAHHHHHHHHHHH." its pretty impressive to hear the complete lack of contectual understanding that the average 40K whiner has about the lore. go back and do your 40k franchise history homework and you will learn you are barking up the wrong tree... I would elaborate but I and many others already have dozens of times on this thread and many others like it, so I am tired of doing so. Some people get it, some dont, There's nothing I can do to change that.
Don't try to lecture me about 40k lore because I happened to be playing TT and reading the books before you where probably born, I still own my Rogue trader and Space crusade box sets along with the newer releases, and I have two large book cases filled with novels so trust me I know my 40k lore.
Humans only work with aliens in the most dire circumstances and usually when the situation is resolved the alliance ends in bloodshed, in an Imperium of a million worlds populated by endless trillions of people fighting hundreds of thousands of wars for ten thousand years the Imperium has allied with aliens a few dozen times and only under great duress.
So its more likely that humans would fight aliens than work with them, I don't believe an extended alliance for years the way this game portrays it as being feasible, yeah maybe if several hive fleets showed up at the same time or the eye of terror grew to fill half the galaxy all the races might have to unite but an extended alliance for a fairly mundane situation would never happen.
So no I'm not saying they would never ever align I am saying that its very unlikely and any story line DM uses to bring a situation like that alive would rape the lore worse than CS Goto did*
If DM makes every quest so epic that you save the galaxy several times a day with alien help and get a new gun the way WoW quests work the game will be an abomination and perversion of the lore that I will never buy. I honestly would have preferred a 40k MMO to be based on Necromunda or something like that instead of the way DM looks to be.
*Sorry for Goto trolling but I think its relevant to this discussion.
Umm fellow, read this thread before you post, if you did you would know that I was 12 when I started playing 40k.... in 1987. I made imperial tanks (sanctioned in the rogue trader book) out of a fucking 'right guard' deoderant and toilet paper roll. (it didnt hold primer all that well.)
You are saying that its not impossible that there would be an allaince in dire circumstances, I am saying that the lore contains several allainces in dire cricumstances and I believe the game is set in dire circumstances (at least they present it as thus.) If you dont want to buy a game based upon your own reading of the same lore that I read, go to town brother, but I am 36 years old and have been into the lore since I was in junior high and this game doesnt break that lore in any way shape or form as far as I am concerned. Yes the races are xenophobic... but some of them will also work together in dire need... you know... such as the entirety of reality ripping apart to make way for chaos... you know thats the backdrop of this particular game right? This game is not based in a mundane situation: its set in the pivotal time of the universe; or have you watched the interviews or read the previews at all? Google "sargos sector" and you will see what I mean.
While your at it.... pull out your second edition rules and look for the guidlines of adding alligned units to your armies. Then, after that... check out the rules for the apocalypse codex.... when you are done with that... look up the eye of terror campaign... then after that look up the Xeno Hybris. Then after that look up fire warriror... man, do I really nead to go on?
Here is a list (as I remember it too) as taken from 2nd edition rules for possible alliances between factions
Official 2nd ed allies, taken directly from the support section of each codex's army lists:
Ultramarines/generic Codex Chapter: any Space Marine lists, Imperial Guard, Imperial Agents, Squats, Eldar (may not choose an Avatar)
Blood Angels: any Space Marine lists, Imperial Guard, Imperial Agents, Squats, Eldar
Dark Angels: any Space Marine lists, Imperial Guard, Imperial Agents
Space Wolves: any Space Marine lists, Imperial Guard, Imperial Agents, Squats, Eldar
Imperial Guard: any Space Marine lists, Imperial Agents, Squats, Eldar
Eldar: any Space Marine lists, Imperial Guard, Squats
Harlequins: no allies
Chaos Marines: Orks; also, if agreed by opponent, Chaos Cult and/or Imperial Guard (ignore IG command structure)
Sisters of Battle: Imperial Guard, Space Marines, Imperial Agents
I can't find my copy of Codex: Orks, but the "Codex Army Lists" from the 2nd ed box set lists their allies as Chaos, and, if they include at least one Blood Axe Mob, Imperial Guard.
"Codex Army Lists" also allows Genestealer Cults to ally with Tyranids, and has the allies list for…
I doubt they would work together and I believe based on the lore that the Imperium would rather manipulate events so the war destroys as many aliens as possible than work with them.
Maybe that could be used later as a plot line in an expansion or something but I still doubt I will buy DM because I don't like the story and I am disgusted with GW again for selling out the spirit of the Warhammer and the 40k world in another cash grab attempt because they are hungry and jealous of Blizzards success and they want a slice of that pie.
I don't dislike Vigil for it because they are just trying to make a game that they feel is good and is profitable for them and my disgust is reserved for GW because they tightly control the IP and would have signed off and approved every part of the fluff Vigil are creating.
EDIT
TT rules are not really relevant IMO because TT games are generally player created content like a pen and paper RPG, many players create great scenarios for the battles and all the rules allow for player creativity but TT rules are not hard fluff so it doesn't really have anything to do with any discussion about lore.
Currently playing:
EVE online (Ruining low sec one hotdrop at a time)
Gravity Rush, Dishonoured: The Knife of Dunwall.
(Waiting for) Metro: Last Light, Company of Heroes II.
honestly the legend and lore in warhammer books are so vast i do hope they dont wowify it !yes it if it means reading the whole dame serie, to get a feel of how things are im all for it!i dont know these game maker so we ll see.but i highly doubt that corp hired a personne knowledgeble in lore ,look and feel of the book serie.so my instinct tell me that the shortest path between point in game making these days is to copy wow.(sad very sad)but if per say a mirical ,they did read the book etc .it might actually make a very good game.we ll have to wait and see.i sincerely hope someone in there like to read and understand what they read and feel.cause there is lot of potential in the legendary book. but if they just baught a licence because they madly wanted to be called warhammer and wowify it ,then it is a very bad move.might as well just call the game :the leroy jenkins adventure
I disagree..... these are rules are out of the canon, these allainces are straight out of the codexes, right off the printed page. not some fan made garbage, these are the logical alliances that GW itself created years and years ago.... the books mean very little... its about the game... and THIS is the game. If you dont count the TT as part of the lore, thats your problem and your specific condition not the game's. So, this game doesnt fall into what YOU want, but it fits the lore perfectly. The game doesnt care what YOU consider lore, its all part of the system its all part of warhammer 40K . so, while I respect you have your specific point of view, it certainly doesnt dictate what GW's point of view is, and they have made that clear through alliances both in the lore and on the table top.
People talk about selling out the lore for a cash grab and it means truely nothing... that can easily translate to, "i dont like what they are doing cuase I have my interpretation of the lore and it doesnt agree WAHHHHHHHH." the bottom line reality is the game has allowed for allainces from the beginning regardless of what you or the loosely sanctioned novels think. IMO those novels people always reference are secondary tripe to the game. the game I have played for 25 years of my life.
I doubt they would work together and I believe based on the lore that the Imperium would rather manipulate events so the war destroys as many aliens as possible than work with them.
Man I already laid it out for you... its in the rules of the game... along with fluff for why. These groups have, are, and will work together in the lore. Bottom line. End. Amen. its been done in the lore, its been done in the game.. its been done in campaigns that combine lore and game (Eye of Terror.) This was a campaign back in 2003 that had heeps of official lore that described the allaince between the eldar and humans. Moving on, Allainces have been done in a Codex that contains rules and lore examples for why the groups should or would allign. Its been done... it's ok... it doesnt fit YOUR vision, deal with that, get past that, becuase its NOT anti-lore in one, single, tiny stretch of the imagination.
Again, I certainly respect you having your own personal vision of the warhammer world, but the bottom line it that Order v. Disorder is a 7 year old construct (officially, 25 years unnoficially) of GW itself. Them adhering to this construct is in no way some sort of cash grab or a lore fuck... its just not.
Maybe that could be used later as a plot line in an expansion or something but I still doubt I will buy DM because I don't like the story and I am disgusted with GW again for selling out the spirit of the Warhammer and the 40k world
man am I glad you didnt play the black crusade in the eye of terror campaign... you know... 7 years ago... before WoW came out... on the table top... you would have been bummed.
Man am I glad you didnt play second edition rules... you would have been bummed.
How can you connect an opinion on a forum to someones ability to play a TT game? That's a barely credible leap tbqfh but I will admit I was more into the modelling aspect and collected armies and made the best terrain I could for set piece battles it usually took me months making terrain and painting units for a specific scenario based on Codex's and novels, I hated unpainted armies and would avoid playing people who could not be bothered to paint them. The part about what someone believes is thought provoking though because what you are missing is the fact that your opinion on what the fluff means is purely a belief.
I see a world where the races are purely fulfilling self interest and ideological dogma and only cooperate with the aliens that are least offensive to their beliefs when it was absolutely necessary or unavoidable, loyal Imperial forces would never work with Chaos but Elder could be tolerated under extreme circumstances and so on.
You see a world where they work together constantly.
Your opinion is based on TT rules and one off special promotional events held by GW and a few stories that have been published where aliens cooperated.
My opinion is based on the wider fluff and the depiction of the various factions over the millenia and that aliens only cooperated for mutual benefit on very few occasions and are more likely to try and stitch each other up and manipulate events so that they take greater benefit from the encounter, I can only recall a few novels where factions cooperated for mutual benefit, most times both sides where preparing for the inevitable double cross and trying to hide their secret agenda.
Here's the killer though neither opinion is really wrong or right and ultimately come down to perception, but that's the beautiful thing about the 40k universe because its so huge and so open to interpretation that people can take away what they want from it.
I see your points about the various codex's but there is a difference between rules and fluff, codex's contain both but rules are very different as they where designed to make a good game via the mechanics and the dice roll for a heavy bolter jam chance isn't anything to do with fluff, all it means in fluff is that a heavy bolter could suddenly turn unreliable. GW also knew that many people would meet for a battle and might not have an army of a certain type so they allowed for allies, a guy might have a nice IG army but his friend only has Elder and they are meeting some people who have Chaos or Orks and so on.
Game mechanics are not fluff.
Currently playing:
EVE online (Ruining low sec one hotdrop at a time)
Gravity Rush, Dishonoured: The Knife of Dunwall.
(Waiting for) Metro: Last Light, Company of Heroes II.
Comments
Any PvP game without a third faction is doomed to be heavily flawed.
Why? Other than DAoC what game used a three way faction pvp mechanic and succeeded? Also what game failed due to only having two? Before you say WAR that game was a failure out of the gate due to stability issues and then even more doomed once we realized the endgame was borked.Playing: Nothing
Looking forward to: Nothing
The major plus side to having 3 factions is when one side completely dominates, the other 2 sides can gang up on the third and beat them down. They will fight each other as well, but when the third comes out in force you can equalize the playing field. I know this doesn't answer any of those questions, except for the first, but it seemed the best post to respond to with this.
I expect it is going to be yet another grab for money by using a well known game world. It might be that WoW set some standards, but you won't win anything on this market by playing to WoW's rules.
I can't get it why they can't do something innovative, yet few days ago an Activision guy claimed that's us grumpy players who destroy innovation and creativity in games. Load of bollocks.
He's right. People are way to picky. When a game comes around that does do something innovative we always find something else and bitch. These games fail because of that and then the next dev team sees that and makes another wow clone.Playing: Nothing
Looking forward to: Nothing
That reminds me of Matrix Online which lasted a while but numbers dropped dramatically after the first year but i blame SOE for that,,, the assholes, but yeah 3 or more factions would be nice but 2 faction games can work and is probably a little less risky for them, i mean there could be an expansion or something that changes who is sided with who, we just have to sit back and relax lol. im sure that they said that there willn be new info released in jan, im just waiting on that
Really ? Care to support that with any examples ? From my point of view most games which failed lately are blunt clones of the standard grown from times even pre-WoW: levels, grind, pointless boring quests which don't leave a mark on the game world, lack of game mechanics which are actually FUN to play.
Fast example I find reapeting 10 maps in a multiplayer shooter more exciting and fun then any content in MMO games. Why ? Because it is an action packed skill based sandbox where things always go differently and you play with and against players. Furthermore in most MMOs you actions and deeds matter as much as in a multiplayer shooter where they are gone as fast as a new map loads after the scoreboard.
Ok, so yeah I don't trust THQ any further than I could throw a Mac truck... But I don't care if some jerk off says they want to pull 1 million WoW subs to their game. WoW isn't the be all, and end all. Still it did allot of things right for a long time. So its only natural for some "management type" to use WoW as target to emulate. They don't understand the reality of how players feel. And if you want to change that they you have to attempt to communicate.
Just coming on a forum like this and QQing about how they are messing things up does no good at all. Well I guess it might make you feel better... However, if you really love the Warhammer 40k IP then you owe it to yourself to try and communicate with the Devs and let them know what you think is important. Plus it seems to me that this one is far enough out that lots of things are going to be open to change.
I like the WH40K ip alot , we just haven't hard much about ther game yet. So yes, I care.
omg im soooo tired of this board, everything is just trying to copy wow, or a wow clone, or this or that wow related....its getting to a point I dont want to even visit these forums anymore, mods can there be a moratorium on "wow clone" talk please???
Any ideas on how to talk to them since there are no official forums for the game?
Playing: Nothing
Looking forward to: Nothing
From a gameplay point of view, there's absolutely no guarantee that a 3rd faction will be an equalizer. In fact, if the game should reward players for successful conquest, what's there to stop a 3rd faction from riding the bandwagon with the strongest faction to get easy loot? And if the game is designed such that there is incentive to preventing your enemies from progressing, it will be a never-ending stalemate and players will complain about how slow the game moves.
Just take a look at WAR when it first released. Zone locks from victory points might have happened once a week, if that. Players cried in outrage over it and they got the domination system. Players want action and progress with their campaigns. They don't want content to come along once a month only to get missed because it happened during an alarm clock raid by some elitist guild.
So if a 3rd faction works as intended, the game is a stalemate and players get bored. If it DOESN'T work as intended, the two stronger sides gang up on a weaker one for free loot.
And then from a lore standpoint, the game just wouldn't make any sense. Let's pretend for the sake of argument that the 3 factions are Imperium, Chaos and Orks. This vaunted "balance of power" would imply that it could be possible for the imperium to team up with either Orks or Chaos to fight the other two. Lore rape if I ever saw it. With 2 factions, the sides are locked into a credible truce/agreement. Chaos can stand manipulating Orks, and Orks love fighting the Imperium. Eldar view Chaos as the great enemy and the Imperium as a clumsy annoyance that they can at least tollerate if it means killing chaos, and the Imperium hates the Eldar but they're smart enough to focus their hate on Chaos and Orks if the Eldar aren't backstabbing them.
So wait, 3rd person, non targetable combat with minimal UI and a focus on guns and vehicles is just run of the mill for an MMO?
There was an interview published by PC Gamer with one of the DMO crew. In it, they said that somewhere in the first 3 years of this games development (it's been in the works since 2007) they made essentially a 40k skinned WoW and that it was terrible. So they scrapped it and went about finding ways to do the IP justice.
There may not be much available to us in the way of details about this game, but if we can judge the company by their actions, then that alone shows they are willing to do whatever it takes to make DMO a game for the ages.
This is complete theory and myth and playing years upon years of DAoC on 2 different servers I never saw it happen once. the reality is one of the 2 weaker factions was always Hibernia. Albion and Midgard used Hibernia as thier playground and just fought eachother over hybernian keeps.
This is a myth that is constantly propogated on pure theory alone, it just never happened on my servers or any servers I had even heard of.
WAR, WoW, LotRO, all fail in PvP because they only have two sides.
You either need guild/FFA based PvP, or you need three sides to balance power, or it just flat out doesn't work and you shouldn't bother.
There's a reason DAoC is considered the best PvP MMO to date.
From 9 years of playing DAoC I've seen realms team up with eachother to beat back the dominant realm MANY times. Not only that, but it makes each encounter more dynamic and exciting having to deal with more than one enemy.
If you never heard the term Xrealming, or cross realming, than I doubt you ever actually played DAoC.
Cant answer to LoTRO becuase i never bothered with it but again to reiterate, the failure of those systems has very little to do with the fact that its 2 sides and much more to do that they were poorly designed and or under developed. WoWs pvp is a poorly designed afterthought that doesnt belong in a pvp conversation. all of the regulatory measures WARs pvp was supposed to have to even the sides were cut in development (dogs of war and power balancing)
I have never seen 3 faction pvp in DAoC work the way you are suggesting. it just never happened on tristain server once in 3 years. As far as I am concerned it's a myth as I have never seen or heard of this happening in DAoC in many years of play. But since they introduced the battlegrounds in DAoC, the game started on a downhill spiral IMO.
Man I rmember the VN message boards were filled with spite and poison about how poorly DAoCs pvp system was designed. Its the exact same BS thats going on here for a game that 1. hasnt even been released and 2. we know damn near next to nothing about.
In fact, if the game should reward players for successful conquest, what's there to stop a 3rd faction from riding the bandwagon with the strongest faction to get easy loot?
This is pretty much exactly what happened on each DAoC server I had played on or even heard of. It was always a contest between Midgard and Albion with Hibernia being the pertpetual bitch of every server, unable to do anything except have thier frontier be the stomping ground of the other 2 realms. so what happned? you guessed it, the hibernian lands took a population dive cuase they could never win. Sound familiar? thats becuase it is.
Please understand here that I am talking about my favorite MMO to date: DAoC. It was great and fun PvP and I prefer a 3 faction system, but I think a 2 faction sytem will work better for DMO provided they really put the time in.
regardless, the arguement that 2 factions can never work is extremely short sighted regardless of wether the autobalancing of three factions is a myth or not.
Not a single game has put in any regulatory systems into thier pvp design from the get go. They were usually added to try and bandaid a bad situation (such as exp bonuses for players on a weaker pop side) And I really beleive it will be different with DMO for one reason. They have a built-in balance problem: Space Marines and if they are smart they know it. The fan draw of the Space Marines will most likely knock any or most servers out of balance. Therefore if they have the forthought to add some thematic and fun regulatory systems, thier game will be fine. I look forward to seeing how they deal with this issue.
There are several suggested solutions in this thread and others as to how you could better implement a 2 faction system with good checks and balances.
if they are not going to follow the LORE and make it a free for all then it is a pile of crap. plus everyone it is working on the game should be executed for this blasphemy of destory the warhammer 40k IP
IN THE FACE!
Killing every alien is the sacred duty of all servants of the Emperor, "Suffer not the unclean to live" is how the Black Templars describe it "Let a wave of repugnance for the enemy wash over you. Let hatred fill you. Hate is good, for our goal is a Human galaxy. We are called by the Emperor with a sacred duty to conquer it in His name" is how an Astarte Chaplain sees it.
The Imperial guard sees it the same way and the guardsmen primer has many prayers and chants urging the men to destroy anything that's not a pure human, and that includes people who are unfortunate to suffer mutations on polluted worlds and they are treated as a vile inconvenience and have no civil rights and have to live in ghettos.
So yeah its very feasible in the lore for the forces of the Imperium to kill everything on sight.
Currently playing:
EVE online (Ruining low sec one hotdrop at a time)
Gravity Rush,
Dishonoured: The Knife of Dunwall.
(Waiting for) Metro: Last Light,
Company of Heroes II.
Yeah, its also feasible for the LORE to be exactly like the LORE and the game has ALWAYS been open and allowed for allainces between SPECIFIC races. Its so painfully obvious how little 40k fans know about the lore and the 25+year history of the game when they say dumb sh*t like "OMG THEY CANT EVAR ALLIGN EVAR EVAR WAHHHHHHHHHHH." its pretty impressive to hear the complete lack of contectual understanding that the average 40K whiner has about the lore. go back and do your 40k franchise history homework and you will learn you are barking up the wrong tree... I would elaborate but I and many others already have dozens of times on this thread and many others like it, so I am tired of doing so. Some people get it, some dont, There's nothing I can do to change that.
Don't try to lecture me about 40k lore because I happened to be playing TT and reading the books before you where probably born, I still own my Rogue trader and Space crusade box sets along with the newer releases, and I have two large book cases filled with novels so trust me I know my 40k lore.
Humans only work with aliens in the most dire circumstances and usually when the situation is resolved the alliance ends in bloodshed, in an Imperium of a million worlds populated by endless trillions of people fighting hundreds of thousands of wars for ten thousand years the Imperium has allied with aliens a few dozen times and only under great duress.
So its more likely that humans would fight aliens than work with them, I don't believe an extended alliance for years the way this game portrays it as being feasible, yeah maybe if several hive fleets showed up at the same time or the eye of terror grew to fill half the galaxy all the races might have to unite but an extended alliance for a fairly mundane situation would never happen.
So no I'm not saying they would never ever align I am saying that its very unlikely and any story line DM uses to bring a situation like that alive would rape the lore worse than CS Goto did*
If DM makes every quest so epic that you save the galaxy several times a day with alien help and get a new gun the way WoW quests work the game will be an abomination and perversion of the lore that I will never buy. I honestly would have preferred a 40k MMO to be based on Necromunda or something like that instead of the way DM looks to be.
*Sorry for Goto trolling but I think its relevant to this discussion.
Currently playing:
EVE online (Ruining low sec one hotdrop at a time)
Gravity Rush,
Dishonoured: The Knife of Dunwall.
(Waiting for) Metro: Last Light,
Company of Heroes II.
Umm fellow, read this thread before you post, if you did you would know that I was 12 when I started playing 40k.... in 1987. I made imperial tanks (sanctioned in the rogue trader book) out of a fucking 'right guard' deoderant and toilet paper roll. (it didnt hold primer all that well.)
You are saying that its not impossible that there would be an allaince in dire circumstances, I am saying that the lore contains several allainces in dire cricumstances and I believe the game is set in dire circumstances (at least they present it as thus.) If you dont want to buy a game based upon your own reading of the same lore that I read, go to town brother, but I am 36 years old and have been into the lore since I was in junior high and this game doesnt break that lore in any way shape or form as far as I am concerned. Yes the races are xenophobic... but some of them will also work together in dire need... you know... such as the entirety of reality ripping apart to make way for chaos... you know thats the backdrop of this particular game right? This game is not based in a mundane situation: its set in the pivotal time of the universe; or have you watched the interviews or read the previews at all? Google "sargos sector" and you will see what I mean.
While your at it.... pull out your second edition rules and look for the guidlines of adding alligned units to your armies. Then, after that... check out the rules for the apocalypse codex.... when you are done with that... look up the eye of terror campaign... then after that look up the Xeno Hybris. Then after that look up fire warriror... man, do I really nead to go on?
Here is a list (as I remember it too) as taken from 2nd edition rules for possible alliances between factions
Official 2nd ed allies, taken directly from the support section of each codex's army lists:
Ultramarines/generic Codex Chapter: any Space Marine lists, Imperial Guard, Imperial Agents, Squats, Eldar (may not choose an Avatar)
Blood Angels: any Space Marine lists, Imperial Guard, Imperial Agents, Squats, Eldar
Dark Angels: any Space Marine lists, Imperial Guard, Imperial Agents
Space Wolves: any Space Marine lists, Imperial Guard, Imperial Agents, Squats, Eldar
Imperial Guard: any Space Marine lists, Imperial Agents, Squats, Eldar
Eldar: any Space Marine lists, Imperial Guard, Squats
Harlequins: no allies
Chaos Marines: Orks; also, if agreed by opponent, Chaos Cult and/or Imperial Guard (ignore IG command structure)
Chaos Cult: Imperial Guard (ignore IG command structure), Orks, Genestealer Cults and Chaos Marines
Tyranids: no allies
Genestealer Chaos
Sisters of Battle: Imperial Guard, Space Marines, Imperial Agents
I can't find my copy of Codex: Orks, but the "Codex Army Lists" from the 2nd ed box set lists their allies as Chaos, and, if they include at least one Blood Axe Mob, Imperial Guard.
"Codex Army Lists" also allows Genestealer Cults to ally with Tyranids, and has the allies list for…
Squats: Space Marines, Imperial Guard, Eldar
I doubt they would work together and I believe based on the lore that the Imperium would rather manipulate events so the war destroys as many aliens as possible than work with them.
Maybe that could be used later as a plot line in an expansion or something but I still doubt I will buy DM because I don't like the story and I am disgusted with GW again for selling out the spirit of the Warhammer and the 40k world in another cash grab attempt because they are hungry and jealous of Blizzards success and they want a slice of that pie.
I don't dislike Vigil for it because they are just trying to make a game that they feel is good and is profitable for them and my disgust is reserved for GW because they tightly control the IP and would have signed off and approved every part of the fluff Vigil are creating.
EDIT
TT rules are not really relevant IMO because TT games are generally player created content like a pen and paper RPG, many players create great scenarios for the battles and all the rules allow for player creativity but TT rules are not hard fluff so it doesn't really have anything to do with any discussion about lore.
Currently playing:
EVE online (Ruining low sec one hotdrop at a time)
Gravity Rush,
Dishonoured: The Knife of Dunwall.
(Waiting for) Metro: Last Light,
Company of Heroes II.
honestly the legend and lore in warhammer books are so vast i do hope they dont wowify it !yes it if it means reading the whole dame serie, to get a feel of how things are im all for it!i dont know these game maker so we ll see.but i highly doubt that corp hired a personne knowledgeble in lore ,look and feel of the book serie.so my instinct tell me that the shortest path between point in game making these days is to copy wow.(sad very sad)but if per say a mirical ,they did read the book etc .it might actually make a very good game.we ll have to wait and see.i sincerely hope someone in there like to read and understand what they read and feel.cause there is lot of potential in the legendary book. but if they just baught a licence because they madly wanted to be called warhammer and wowify it ,then it is a very bad move.might as well just call the game :the leroy jenkins adventure
I disagree..... these are rules are out of the canon, these allainces are straight out of the codexes, right off the printed page. not some fan made garbage, these are the logical alliances that GW itself created years and years ago.... the books mean very little... its about the game... and THIS is the game. If you dont count the TT as part of the lore, thats your problem and your specific condition not the game's. So, this game doesnt fall into what YOU want, but it fits the lore perfectly. The game doesnt care what YOU consider lore, its all part of the system its all part of warhammer 40K . so, while I respect you have your specific point of view, it certainly doesnt dictate what GW's point of view is, and they have made that clear through alliances both in the lore and on the table top.
People talk about selling out the lore for a cash grab and it means truely nothing... that can easily translate to, "i dont like what they are doing cuase I have my interpretation of the lore and it doesnt agree WAHHHHHHHH." the bottom line reality is the game has allowed for allainces from the beginning regardless of what you or the loosely sanctioned novels think. IMO those novels people always reference are secondary tripe to the game. the game I have played for 25 years of my life.
I doubt they would work together and I believe based on the lore that the Imperium would rather manipulate events so the war destroys as many aliens as possible than work with them.
Man I already laid it out for you... its in the rules of the game... along with fluff for why. These groups have, are, and will work together in the lore. Bottom line. End. Amen. its been done in the lore, its been done in the game.. its been done in campaigns that combine lore and game (Eye of Terror.) This was a campaign back in 2003 that had heeps of official lore that described the allaince between the eldar and humans. Moving on, Allainces have been done in a Codex that contains rules and lore examples for why the groups should or would allign. Its been done... it's ok... it doesnt fit YOUR vision, deal with that, get past that, becuase its NOT anti-lore in one, single, tiny stretch of the imagination.
Again, I certainly respect you having your own personal vision of the warhammer world, but the bottom line it that Order v. Disorder is a 7 year old construct (officially, 25 years unnoficially) of GW itself. Them adhering to this construct is in no way some sort of cash grab or a lore fuck... its just not.
Maybe that could be used later as a plot line in an expansion or something but I still doubt I will buy DM because I don't like the story and I am disgusted with GW again for selling out the spirit of the Warhammer and the 40k world
man am I glad you didnt play the black crusade in the eye of terror campaign... you know... 7 years ago... before WoW came out... on the table top... you would have been bummed.
Man am I glad you didnt play second edition rules... you would have been bummed.
How can you connect an opinion on a forum to someones ability to play a TT game? That's a barely credible leap tbqfh but I will admit I was more into the modelling aspect and collected armies and made the best terrain I could for set piece battles it usually took me months making terrain and painting units for a specific scenario based on Codex's and novels, I hated unpainted armies and would avoid playing people who could not be bothered to paint them. The part about what someone believes is thought provoking though because what you are missing is the fact that your opinion on what the fluff means is purely a belief.
I see a world where the races are purely fulfilling self interest and ideological dogma and only cooperate with the aliens that are least offensive to their beliefs when it was absolutely necessary or unavoidable, loyal Imperial forces would never work with Chaos but Elder could be tolerated under extreme circumstances and so on.
You see a world where they work together constantly.
Your opinion is based on TT rules and one off special promotional events held by GW and a few stories that have been published where aliens cooperated.
My opinion is based on the wider fluff and the depiction of the various factions over the millenia and that aliens only cooperated for mutual benefit on very few occasions and are more likely to try and stitch each other up and manipulate events so that they take greater benefit from the encounter, I can only recall a few novels where factions cooperated for mutual benefit, most times both sides where preparing for the inevitable double cross and trying to hide their secret agenda.
Here's the killer though neither opinion is really wrong or right and ultimately come down to perception, but that's the beautiful thing about the 40k universe because its so huge and so open to interpretation that people can take away what they want from it.
I see your points about the various codex's but there is a difference between rules and fluff, codex's contain both but rules are very different as they where designed to make a good game via the mechanics and the dice roll for a heavy bolter jam chance isn't anything to do with fluff, all it means in fluff is that a heavy bolter could suddenly turn unreliable. GW also knew that many people would meet for a battle and might not have an army of a certain type so they allowed for allies, a guy might have a nice IG army but his friend only has Elder and they are meeting some people who have Chaos or Orks and so on.
Game mechanics are not fluff.
Currently playing:
EVE online (Ruining low sec one hotdrop at a time)
Gravity Rush,
Dishonoured: The Knife of Dunwall.
(Waiting for) Metro: Last Light,
Company of Heroes II.