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Food for thought
SonikFlash
Member UncommonPosts: 561
I see a lot of complaints about bioware focusing on the single player aspect of a story and how they focus to much on the voiceovers. Here's food for thought.
Age of Conan levels 1-24 Touted as one of the single best experiences in mmo leveling to date.
The majority of the complaints that I sall about AoC we're the rest of the game isn't more like Tortage.
Tortage featured:
Full voiceovers
Class Quests by yourself.
Streamlined areas to explore
SWTOR takes this a step further
The Whole Game is voiced over
Class quests you can do by yourself OR with other players
Streamlined areas to explore.
So it seems to me they took at least from AoC the parts people loved and expanded on them. I don't see how this can be a bad thing.
Comments
Funcom's biggest mistake with AoC was trying to push the envelope to much with graphics. Probably close to half of the people who bought it didn't have computers that could run in properly.
Second was a broken/unfinished endgame. T1 raiding was somewhat playable but T2 was completely broken/unfinshed at launch.
Third was broken PvP promises. They came up with a siege system that sounded awesome but still is broken till this day.
Outside of that the game was one of the best mmo's made in the last few years. Unfortunately those three things ruined what could have been a great mmo.
If SWTOR can avoid those three pitfalls they should be fine.
People shouldn't have to pay a monthly fee for a good single-player experience, in my opinion.
Vault-Tec analysts have concluded that the odds of worldwide nuclear armaggeddon this decade are 17,143,762... to 1.
Hate to state the obvious, but you don't.
You disagree then?
Vault-Tec analysts have concluded that the odds of worldwide nuclear armaggeddon this decade are 17,143,762... to 1.
I'd be totally with you there, neither would I, however with the idea of groups, and people in the world, doing raids, crafting, auctions houses PvP and things like that. I doesn't really feel like a single player game experience to me. Granted it has some strong influences but i think these are the good ones. Strong influence on story and the gamers involved.
I've always felt that the player was sorta disconnected from the world in most MMOs, this looks like it's trying to get you involved in the world, if all be it a little.
Help me Bioware, you're my only hope.
Is ToR going to be good? Dude it's Bioware making a freaking star wars game, all signs point to awesome. -G4tv MMo report.
No I was pointing out the obvious.
You don't like, don't pay.
It's really that simple.
If they are doing them for their own gain, not needing the help of/interaction with anyone else to accomplish any of it, it's still a single player game- in a multiplayer setting. Only raids make an exception.
Army of One is the name of the game.
Wouldn't that be true in almost every MMO then? people usually only do stuff for their own gain. Not following this line of thinking.
You will have to rely on others for crafting as you only get like 3 skills, that won't be enough to make your armor, your weapons, your trinkets, stims and all that kinds of things.
Edit: read that a bit more closely, i missed one line, apologies
You do have world quests, group quests, raids, and you can just grind. You can even bring people into your own story quests to if you want. Granted you CAN solo all the way to max level, but most MMOs let you do that to.
Help me Bioware, you're my only hope.
Is ToR going to be good? Dude it's Bioware making a freaking star wars game, all signs point to awesome. -G4tv MMo report.
Yes, it is true for most MMO's. It doesn't make it any more acceptable though.
Most MMO's are single player experiences.
Quests and instances will probably supply you with anything you need. Can't make us dependent on each other, that would be a horrible multiplayer experience.
But yeah, it's not something exclusive to TOR.
I will point this out for you, just for consideration. Granted you can go solo if you want, but if you want to see everything, you will need other people.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9inifj6N1UU
If you want to do crafting it will require other people.
I haven't looked for the quote, but they said something along the lines of if you want to solo you can, you won't see everything the game has to offer but you can. If you want to group up with friends, friends being 2, friends being 20, you can. If you want to do crafting you can.
It's more about giving choices to you rather then forcing you. However if you want to see all the content then you'll need to group up.
Help me Bioware, you're my only hope.
Is ToR going to be good? Dude it's Bioware making a freaking star wars game, all signs point to awesome. -G4tv MMo report.
I'm actually more concerned about the mechanics than the content itself. The mechanics need to support this kind of playstyle, or it won't work.
To explain more in-depth, our Western community is very individualistic. We need an agenda to interact and cooperate with others. Otherwise we tend to keep to ourselves, especially around strangers. If the game lacks an agenda, it just won't be enough to turn a single player experience into a multiplayer one.
Now that makes sense, I agree.
Yeah i think this is the core problem with MMOs themselves, i've noticed this in the eastern ones as well though, people solo grind mobs to get the best experience, going so far as making bot programs (these are ingame not 3rd party) to do the grinding for you.
I don't think this is just BW but more of an over arching problem with the genre itself. My personal opinion, unless you make it like EQ where you have to group with others to grind experience, people won't. I made a thread on this a while ago, I'll put the link in later when i find it, it's a while back, think the name was waiting for the boat or something like that.
What i think BW is trying to do is make grouping more interesting, so people will want to group rather then be forced. Grouping with others at least in the world quests and flash points allows for every player to get involved in the story.
Help me Bioware, you're my only hope.
Is ToR going to be good? Dude it's Bioware making a freaking star wars game, all signs point to awesome. -G4tv MMo report.
I agree.
ALL mmorpgs, from sandbox to themepark have a lot of content meant, or balanced for, solo play: next to group only content everyone spends hours and hours on their own in all morpgs, perhaps while chatting with friends in group/clan/guild/world chats, but doing very much solo content.
What BW is doing is trying to make that part of the game much more immersive, fun and memorable which is a very good thing as far as I can tell. The only questions are:
1. Does it have plenty of incentives for group-only content to offset this?
2. Will the amount of endgame content (to be enjoyed when your storyline is over) and regardless whether it is solo or group content, be sufficient enough to not drop in a black hole of nothingness or will it leave you with only one option; starting an alt for more storyline-cake?
We can only hopeth both group-incentives + endgame content are very much up to par but I think they might very well be:
BW has been focussing on marketing the storyline aspect to SWTOR because it is such a unique selling point. In contrary to what this makes some veteran mmorpg players think, this doesn't mean they forgot about everything else.
My brand new bloggity blog.
Yes, what the game needs are incentives, and enough "fun" to make it worth the lack of convenience that comes with it (being dependent on others).
I think this is what MMO developers are afraid of these days. Inconvenience is simply a no-no in the MMO's of today, but without inconvenience there is no true multiplayer experience.
Enough rambling, though; BW will do what they think is best.
I'm sorry, but I am seeing people here saying it is not an MMO if they balance it for solo play as well as group play. Now when I read something like that it tells me you feel any MMO that doesn't FORCE you to group with other people is not a "True MMO". I have to disagree. Reason being, if it is designed for both play styles that makes it a more versatile MMO. I myself would never play a game that forced me to group all the time. Some times you just want to hop on a game and goof around a little bit. If you HAVE to group to have any fun though, what is the sense in playing that game? For me it just wouldn't make sense and I wouldn't buy it, or if I did not knowing about that feature then I would not re-subbing to it.
Let's be honest here. A lot of people have different definitions for what they feel makes up a "Real MMO", but in the end, if a game allows massive amounts of people to play in the same digital world AND allows them to actually group up to do missions, then it's an MMO. Granted, the better MMO's will have a lot more features, but that is the one basic feature it has to have to be an MMO. Any others are the "nice little extras we like to play with" sort of things.
"If half of what you tell me is a lie, how can I believe any of it?"
Lol, nobody has implied anything of the sort. All the game needs is an agenda to scoialize. That doesn't translate to "forced to group all the time".
And the big question here is- if its not grouping that makes the game fun, then what? MMO gameplay is universally a big joke. Graphics are always behind single player games. There is more or less unnecessary grind. There is nothing except socializing in which these 'games' can excel at. TOR has it's story to save the day, but I doubt it'll surpass the stories of the single player games even in the best case.
LOL, agenda to socialize. Isn't that what "raids" are about? Or an auction house? What about Guilds? Teaming for missions of any kind? Now I will grant you, BioWare has been very stingy with the information and has not detailed most of these things, but it has been stated many times that they will all be in there. So I don't understand your problem there.
Soloing or teaming is an individual choice and should be left up to individuals to choose what THEY want to do, not people like you to decide for them.
As for stories. How many single player games do you know of that have 8 different stories you can play? I always thought Dragon Age was pretty good in the story department, but even there the story was basically the same for all the classes, with just minor twists. If those 8 different stories can't grab you when added on top of everything we already know WILL be in this game, then I am afraid no game will never be able to please you.
In the end though, there are two HUGE reasons people are drawn to this game. One is that BioWare is making it and the second is that it is Star Wars. People will buy it for those reasons alone. It will be up to BioWare to keep them in the game after that though and since I can not forsee the future, I like you will have to wait and see.
"If half of what you tell me is a lie, how can I believe any of it?"
Uh, raids are endgame. And the funny thing is, it's quite likely that in low-midgame there will be no agenda to socialize and in endgame there won't be any "individual choice" as to whether you want to progress in a group or solo. You raid. That's a horrible agenda, because it leaves no room for soloers, and low-midgame leaves no agenda for groupers. It's all around pretty dumb system, but again not exclusive to TOR.
Western society chooses soloing if left for individual choice. Yet we still like socializing as long as we have an agenda.
Storywise? Quality =/= quantity. If a single polished story can grab my attention, doesn't mean 8 subpar ones will.
In the end, nobody is claiming that people aren't drawn to this game. It's just a single player experience, that's all.
Just thought I would throw this quote from Daniel Erickson again for those that missed it last year. It talks about the quests types in general and the way grouping is encouraged by the content. Also better gear, but that is another story for another post.
Quote is from here: http://www.swtor.com/community/showthread.php?p=4414944
This one can get confusing as there is a great deal of content in the game, all geared for slightly different experiences. So let's get to it, yes?
--There is no repeated content across factions. Easy enough.
--Every Class has a completely unique storyline with their own companion characters and quests that takes them from the very first level through the very last and leads them naturally into the end game content. We call these Class Quests.
Now the questions and ideas that can be harder to get your head around if you haven't yet been one of the few lucky ones to actually play the game.
--"Is all your faction specific content Class Quests?"
Absolutely not. It's a multiplayer game, built for multiplayer storytelling. Which means all classes in a faction will have access to all of the same content except the Class Quests.
--"What is the breakdown between Class Quests and multiplayer quests?"
On the Origin worlds it's about 60% Class Quests, dropping to about 40% on the Capital worlds and then even lower for the rest of the game. The whole idea is to get you into the game, teach you about your class and your story, then get you out there playing with other people. We need to meet Obi-Wan, get our lightsaber and learn about the rest of the galaxy, but then it's time to get the gang together and go to war. We're still going to take breaks and run off to Dagobah but that's now the minority of our story. So the game very purposefully starts with more single player content and then moves strongly towards content that can be played multiplayer.
--"What are all the different types of multiplayer quests?"
Whew, that one's a big list but I can hit the major stuff. 1) World Quests: One-offs or short chains built for easy pick up and play. Grab a PUG or your friends and have a short adventure together. 2) World Arcs: Epic quest arcs that go from four to ten quests or more and follow a storyline across an entire planet. Big decisions and branching questlines you may have to play multiple times (in different playthroughs, they're not repeatable) to see all the content. Built for long play sessions or a series of short sessions where you and your group want a huge adventure that may stretch over tens of hours. Also very PUGable as long as you're grabbing like minded folks. 3) Flashpoints: Instanced, heavily scripted major story and action pieces built for groups to go in and get the very best of BioWare's multiplayer storytelling. Built to be played in a single sitting.
Now here's the fun part. Our multiplayer content has lines, choices and content that is specific to each class and content that is only there if you're in a group. Did the Jedi Consular really just convince the Sith boss to stand down and not fight us? Did the Bounty Hunter really just shake down the Moff for more money? Did the Smuggler just leave the group with that attractive quest giver? Um...are they coming back? It's fun to replay the game and see all the different content but it's also a blast to play with friends and be completely surprised by what they say. Often you'll find yourself saying "Okay, that clearly was not one of my dialogue options!"
Hope that helps!
I personally look at it as the class story being all about you (your character). What made you the character you are and why you have what you have. Then as you learn more about your character. You get a chance to take what you have learned and apply it to the overall story happening around you.
As DE talks about above. Luke had his own life, his own talents and abilities. He then met Obi-Wan and was drawn into a larger story. He still had to go off to Dagobah and learn from Yoda as his classs quest. But he began to do more and more grouping for the story. That is my interpretation anyway.
How many people long for that "past, simpler, and better world," I wonder, without ever recognizing the truth that perhaps it was they who were simpler and better, and not the world about them?
R.A.Salvatore
Sorry Hyanmen, but your "single player experience" holds about as much water as a bucket without a bottom. They have already given us so much information on how they have made this game not just grouping friendly, but grouping advantageous, that to make that claim seems more than a little silly to me and judging by some of the other posts I have read in these forums, I think you are in the minority in still believing this game is a "single player experience".
"If half of what you tell me is a lie, how can I believe any of it?"
I remember never to trust someone with the FF logo as their display picture. Plus I recall them saying FF was > swtor several times, and look how that turned out. So yeah, bucket, without bottom.. no water.
In all serious though. It's obviously an MMORPG. Anyone who's seen footage from the games con's would clearly see that. You can see other troopers and smugglers running about on Ord Mantell. Also, where do you think all that money went? Of course it covers the standard MMO stuff.
It will not be a single player game, but it will allow you to play it so, if you should wish to.
It's down to choice, and choice alone. Do I group up to fend off a Sith attack? If I do I'll have to play with a team. The rewards will be slightly greater than if I'd done it on my own. That is the way most mmo's have done it, and that is your incentive to group. If your going into an MMORPG and expecting the game to 'force' you to group up, then your in the wrong game. MMO's have always been about choice afterall. Freeroam and freedom. Although that does vary from game to game.
Longing for Skyrim, The Old Republic and Mass Effect 3
loool
The Developers have said this? Nothing to worry about then
Every game can be "grouping advantageous" when it comes down to it. That doesn't mean the proper agenda exists.
/Buys into hype
The game can only give you the tools to want to socialize, in this case.
If you want to see all the content then you want to make friends or at least contact other people to do these quests. Plus as you add people into these quests they can give unique twists to the quest
For example If you do a quest by yourself, then you control almost the entire action (unless your companion gets involved).
However if you have a group of people. Those 4 people can all attempt to change the story to go the way they want.
In the save the captain flash point for example
Once you fight your way through to the captain you go into a interactive cinematic with that captain. Now if you are by yourself and your choice will be the only deciding factor of how the quest or dungeon plays out. In this instance the dungeon is quite predictable and you are always in complete control
However, if you group up with others in that flash point and you choose to kill the captain, that action may take place or it may not. If say 3 people kill the captain (what you choose) and the fourth says save the captain. That fourth party member could still win out and send the quest (flash point) in a different direction. Thus making the game play more chaotic and thus more interesting.
Add in the fact that some quests are generally designed to be group oriented (as in the loot you receive will only really be useful if you tackle it at the right level and thus need others to complete it as well)
and finally the fact that more people just make the combat look more interesting. Such as 1 person calling in an air strike while 2 others are slashing away at enemies with a lightsaber while the other is throwing a grenade.
Things just get more chaotic and look more interesting the more people you get involved. Thus would make people want to group. As for the socializing part. I"m not sure anything can really force this. People have been known to group and never say anything beyond Hi, want group for X?
It does however encourage it by getting the entire group involved with the story and providing group quests.
Help me Bioware, you're my only hope.
Is ToR going to be good? Dude it's Bioware making a freaking star wars game, all signs point to awesome. -G4tv MMo report.
This really sounds like a downside to grouping honestly. I'm not in complete control = good? That's quite an upside-down way to think about it... I'd rather be in control than let people I don't know decide what's gonna happen. That would piss me off, and trivialize the whole "dialogue choices" concept.
Whether the additional loot obtained from quests is enough of an agenda will be seen.. usually these games are so easy and fast that you never really need that extra loot to progress and sometimes you're even better off without it. Again, "encouraging grouping" but if it doesn't mean much, it's hardly an agenda.