To the op how would you define a success? 200K in box sales 500K in box sales, 300K playing after 30 day. It is all subjective. Really we have to ask what do the folks at trion define as a success. Wow type success is 7-14 Million, and rift is going to come nowhere near that number, what would be considered a RIFT success. AOC has like 200K maybe 100k playing at the moment and folks consider that fail, War-hammer 150k and that's considered a fail.
So I am wondering what you op would consider a success number wise, does anybody have a projected line that Trion is working for?
OH and op, the reason why these forums are so nasty, is the that most folks who post here can not post this kind of stuff in their respective games forums baring getting a ban. That is why things are so nasty nowadays, or at least that is my thoughts.
In my opinion most peoepl who don't want to see companies succeed do so for their own selfish and usually invalid reasons such as:
They are championing a certain game that launcheds aroudn the same time or they feel is a direct comeptitor and feel threatened so run down the other game with the msitaken belief that all other games need to fail for thiers to be successful and that they can be instrumental in this.An exmaple of this cna be seen in the DCUO and Rift forums where a large percentage of haters in each is a fan of the other game.
They only have interest in a narrow niche of MMO which is currently not in favor and want all other types of MMO to fial so devs will concentrate on their beloved niche
There are of course other reasons because people are complex but most of thme boil down to selfishness and bias.
ALL this Eastern MMO talk but all of them suck ass! ... I know I like sound quality in my games and Aion for example sounds like cheesy 11 year olds grunting and spell effect noises that of an arcade game.
I thank you for using some logic and not hating rift or trion because you don't like it. These qualities are hard to find on this site nowadays. I like rift, which is weird, cause I usually don't like theme parks usually. I think it's the rifts. They're fun. But anyway, this game succeeding certainly can't hurt the industry.
As anything other than a failure, at this point. Anything that allows them to keep their current subscription model and to continue to produce games.
If they have greater than a 300k subscriber base in 6 months, they should be doing cartwheels, considering the state of the industry.
While I'm admittedly loving DCUO, I usually prefer games based on original ips, rather than a book or movie folded into a shape it was never intended be. I think Rift is the only AAA game based on an original, non-existant ip that even has a shot at succeeding in the western market for the next year or two. If it fails...
We will always have eastern games,the only ones who always try to innovate.
Personally,i could care less if the western mmorpg market dies,they haven't made a good game since.....well,a lot of years.
Name a recent "innovative" eastern MMORPG.
Don't worry, i'll wait.
I have to agree with the OP about Trion though, they seem to have their heads on straight and I sincerely hope for the success of Rift. It has a ton of potential as well.
Aion,flight pvp.
FFXIV,player driven economy,gatherers and crafters are classes,just like warriors and mages.
Tera,no auto-aiming.
Recent western mmos,AoC,War,Lotro,all the same crap.
lol what you listed is hardly innovateing.. And the fact that you have FFXIV and innovating in a single sentence is beyond me.. You wanna see a player driven market, go check out EvE.. You wanna see a barley functioning market (having player stalls dosnt make a market "player driven") then go check out FFXIV.. And tera is on the list because of no auto aiming? That's been done before..
With a list like that i can say almost all western games are innovateing -
WoW - drops loads of ez l00t
AoC - has boobs at character creation
WAR - has tons of teh pvp and is player driven pvp
LoTRo - is MMORPG made off Lord Of The Rings zomg
c'mon...
Currently Playing: Rift + Starcraft II + Gears Of War 3 Beta
If Rift is a succes,get ready for even more wow clones.
I hope Rift fails,because western mmos will try to innovate instead of making the same old crap again.
AION, Lineage1, Lineage2, and Tera
All asian grinders.. all the "same" thing..
Rift is hardly "innovative" but either is any other asian MMORPG on the market in the last 10 years..
Honestly if you wanna look for games that are "innovateing" check out F2P.. I'll admit a lot of eastern F2P MMORPG's take risks and do something new (Uncharted Waters Online, Heroes Of Three Kingdoms, ect) but they all fail because they are, well, free to play games ran by greedy eastern companies.
Currently Playing: Rift + Starcraft II + Gears Of War 3 Beta
As anything other than a failure, at this point. Anything that allows them to keep their current subscription model and to continue to produce games.
If they have greater than a 300k subscriber base in 6 months, they should be doing cartwheels, considering the state of the industry.
While I'm admittedly loving DCUO, I usually prefer games based on original ips, rather than a book or movie folded into a shape it was never intended be. I think Rift is the only AAA game based on an original, non-existant ip that even has a shot at succeeding in the western market for the next year or two. If it fails...
I would guess the failure line is around 200K subs for a AAA MMO that been around 5 years in development, Mythic counted 250K+ to go even for WAR.
And yes, I hope Rift do better than so as well. Not sure if I will start or not but it is pretty well done and the genre needs a few successes soon. It looks good so far but AoC and WAR looked fine as well a month before launch if you check the forum at the time so anything can happen.
My guess is 250-500K and a moderate success based on what I seen of it in the betas. But it of course depends on long term playability as well. It wont be the next Wow but not the next APB either.
An exmaple of this cna be seen in the DCUO and Rift forums where a large percentage of haters in each is a fan of the other game.
Yeah, hanging out on the DCUO forums, I've seen lots of this. I even caught some dude asking for a buddy key that had just trashed the game two days prior, claiming to have played it in beta.
We will always have eastern games,the only ones who always try to innovate.
Personally,i could care less if the western mmorpg market dies,they haven't made a good game since.....well,a lot of years.
Name a recent "innovative" eastern MMORPG.
Don't worry, i'll wait.
I have to agree with the OP about Trion though, they seem to have their heads on straight and I sincerely hope for the success of Rift. It has a ton of potential as well.
Aion,flight pvp.
FFXIV,player driven economy,gatherers and crafters are classes,just like warriors and mages.
Tera,no auto-aiming.
Recent western mmos,AoC,War,Lotro,all the same crap.
lol what you listed is hardly innovateing.. And the fact that you have FFXIV and innovating in a single sentence is beyond me.. You wanna see a player driven market, go check out EvE.. You wanna see a barley functioning market (having player stalls dosnt make a market "player driven") then go check out FFXIV.. And tera is on the list because of no auto aiming? That's been done before..
With a list like that i can say almost all western games are innovateing -
WoW - drops loads of ez l00t
AoC - has boobs at character creation
WAR - has tons of teh pvp and is player driven pvp
LoTRo - is MMORPG made off Lord Of The Rings zomg
c'mon...
Yeah,it's been done before,REALLY? omg!
You know,there is a difference beetween 2 or 3 games with the same mechanic,than 30 mmorpgs with the same old feature from wow.
And it doesn't matter,if you haven't played Eve,FFXIV has a lot of new things.
If you played 1 western game,you have played them all,yeah maybe they have 1 or 2 new features,but not core mechanics.
We will always have eastern games,the only ones who always try to innovate.
Personally,i could care less if the western mmorpg market dies,they haven't made a good game since.....well,a lot of years.
Name a recent "innovative" eastern MMORPG.
Don't worry, i'll wait.
I have to agree with the OP about Trion though, they seem to have their heads on straight and I sincerely hope for the success of Rift. It has a ton of potential as well.
Aion,flight pvp.
FFXIV,player driven economy,gatherers and crafters are classes,just like warriors and mages.
Tera,no auto-aiming.
Recent western mmos,AoC,War,Lotro,all the same crap.
lol what you listed is hardly innovateing.. And the fact that you have FFXIV and innovating in a single sentence is beyond me.. You wanna see a player driven market, go check out EvE.. You wanna see a barley functioning market (having player stalls dosnt make a market "player driven") then go check out FFXIV.. And tera is on the list because of no auto aiming? That's been done before..
With a list like that i can say almost all western games are innovateing -
WoW - drops loads of ez l00t
AoC - has boobs at character creation
WAR - has tons of teh pvp and is player driven pvp
LoTRo - is MMORPG made off Lord Of The Rings zomg
c'mon...
Yeah,it's been done before,REALLY? omg!
You know,there is a difference beetween 2 or 3 games with the same mechanic,than 30 mmorpgs with the same old feature from wow.
And it doesn't matter,if you haven't played Eve,FFXIV has a lot of new things.
If you played 1 western game,you have played them all,yeah maybe they have 1 or 2 new features,but not core mechanics.
I'am not defending western MMORPG's.. I'am just saying that EVERYTHING you said can be said the same for eastern market.. Almost everyone knows, eastern MMORPG = GRINDERS.. And you've proven it you're self by posting that list of "innovateing" eastern MMORPGs.. FFXIV = grind, theres not even quests, you just group up and grind on mobs.. AION = grind, trust me, i hit lvl 50 before this new AION 2.0 stuff, i was first cleric on my server to do so, and i did so by grinding the same elite mobs over and over again in idratu.. TERA = still in beta but since its being westernized by a lot of the same people who westernized AION its safe to say that it, too, will be a grind.
Currently Playing: Rift + Starcraft II + Gears Of War 3 Beta
It's easier to define success as "not a failure". "Not a failure" is that the shareholders/investors get a return on their investment. I think there is a reasonable chance that will happen through box sales (and initial subs) alone. Seems like there are far to few real risk takers in this bussines which is a shame for us consumers.
We will always have eastern games,the only ones who always try to innovate.
Personally,i could care less if the western mmorpg market dies,they haven't made a good game since.....well,a lot of years.
Name a recent "innovative" eastern MMORPG.
Don't worry, i'll wait.
I have to agree with the OP about Trion though, they seem to have their heads on straight and I sincerely hope for the success of Rift. It has a ton of potential as well.
Aion,flight pvp.
FFXIV,player driven economy,gatherers and crafters are classes,just like warriors and mages.
Tera,no auto-aiming.
Recent western mmos,AoC,War,Lotro,all the same crap.
lol what you listed is hardly innovateing.. And the fact that you have FFXIV and innovating in a single sentence is beyond me.. You wanna see a player driven market, go check out EvE.. You wanna see a barley functioning market (having player stalls dosnt make a market "player driven") then go check out FFXIV.. And tera is on the list because of no auto aiming? That's been done before..
With a list like that i can say almost all western games are innovateing -
WoW - drops loads of ez l00t
AoC - has boobs at character creation
WAR - has tons of teh pvp and is player driven pvp
LoTRo - is MMORPG made off Lord Of The Rings zomg
c'mon...
Yeah,it's been done before,REALLY? omg!
You know,there is a difference beetween 2 or 3 games with the same mechanic,than 30 mmorpgs with the same old feature from wow.
And it doesn't matter,if you haven't played Eve,FFXIV has a lot of new things.
If you played 1 western game,you have played them all,yeah maybe they have 1 or 2 new features,but not core mechanics.
I'am not defending western MMORPG's.. I'am just saying that EVERYTHING you said can be said the same for eastern market.. Almost everyone knows, eastern MMORPG = GRINDERS.. And you've proven it you're self by posting that list of "innovateing" eastern MMORPGs.. FFXIV = grind, theres not even quests, you just group up and grind on mobs.. AION = grind, trust me, i hit lvl 50 before this new AION 2.0 stuff, i was first cleric on my server to do so, and i did so by grinding the same elite mobs over and over again in idratu.. TERA = still in beta but since its being westernized by a lot of the same people who westernized AION its safe to say that it, too, will be a grind.
Thanks for proving my point.
"If it's asian,there is only grind",you probably never played ony of those games.
FFXIV has levequests,local leves,faction leves,story quests and class quests,you are just lying.
I have a Ranger lvl 50 in aion without doing any grind,just quests,i never ran out of quests.
Tera it's too easy,there are people at lvl 40+ after 3 days.
While I don't think Rift will level the playing field by garnering millions of players, I do think that it will be popular enough to sustain istelf, make imrpovements, and slowly attract more and more players.
I'll take it one step further and say that Rift will make a mint off of bored, disgruntled WoW players and those gamers just coming of age for their first mmo. Blizzard has plenty of fickle subs that are ready to defect.
2. Trion seems like they've got their heads on straight.
I almost wonder if Rift wasn't planned as the company's opening salvo, simply because they knew they could find funding for it. If Rift does well, I think we can look forward to games down the road from them that'll be different and innovative. If Rift fails, not so much.
The opening salvo thing is actually a very good point. Now, I don't know very much about the other games that Trion are making, but I do remember reading something about one of them - the one they were developing with SyFi channel, to be specific.
While there are no specifics about the project yet, the idea is that the MMO will launch simultaneously with a new SyFi show, and that the two will influence each other, both ways. The game would receive a weekly update following each episode, to reflect any changes in the show, and the show would, in turn, be influenced by events in the game, albeit at a slower pace - maybe once a month, maybe between season breaks (ie. one mid-season update and one end-season update).
That sounds pretty damn innovative to me, and it will be interesting to see how this plays out, or if it even plays out at all.
It's all about managing your expectations. In some ways, Rift is really good, but I'm getting this nagging feeling that the devs have taken far too many shortcuts, thinking that players won't mind once they become customers. The game suffers from the Aion syndrome in that, whatever character you create, you're going to be doing one of two identical leveling paths. WoW kept us busy creating alts by given a choice of paths while leveling, at least until Cataclysm "streamlined" everything. The souls system isn't really all that fantastic once you get into it. Some trees are pretty worthless right now. The trouble is, when you're choosing a specialization, you're only given the hype for that tree. It's not until you get into it that you realize that some of the trees are situational at best and not all that interesting.
Crisscrossing Telara and having to clear a path every time is tedious. But Trion is banking that people will be so burnt out by Rift predecessors that they'll commit to the game blindly and overlook most of Rift's glaring shortcomings. From what I've seen, they may be right. The real proof will come in the first four weeks after release. I'm betting that the people who are singing its praises now will be quickly disillusioned once they become paying customers. Trion's got four weeks to clean things up, but from what I'm seeing, they may not have a clue just how to do it.
"Soloists and those who prefer small groups should never have to feel like they''re the ones getting the proverbial table scraps, as it were." - Scott Hartsman, Senior Producer, Everquest II "People love groups. Its a fallacy that people want to play solo all the time." - Scott Hartsman, Executive Producer, Rift
Tera it's too easy,there are people at lvl 40+ after 3 days.
From my understanding, Korean players retained their beta test characters, thus the huge leap in levels.
Beta characters have not been wiped. That said, though, those levels have been attained by people playing in five events, a few days each. People will be at level cap within the first week or two after release.
"Soloists and those who prefer small groups should never have to feel like they''re the ones getting the proverbial table scraps, as it were." - Scott Hartsman, Senior Producer, Everquest II "People love groups. Its a fallacy that people want to play solo all the time." - Scott Hartsman, Executive Producer, Rift
I hope Rift succeeds as well. it is very disappointing to come to this site and see all the bashing before the game even officially launches. Its almost like people want it to fail. Too bad, while Rift doesn't really seem to bring alot of new stuff to the table, it does a very good job of polishing up and improving on existing maechanics and deserves better treatment than its getting, in my opinion, of course... Oh well. Haters gonna hate , I guess...
People want companies to stop trying to out-WOW WoW.
Comments
To the op how would you define a success? 200K in box sales 500K in box sales, 300K playing after 30 day. It is all subjective. Really we have to ask what do the folks at trion define as a success. Wow type success is 7-14 Million, and rift is going to come nowhere near that number, what would be considered a RIFT success. AOC has like 200K maybe 100k playing at the moment and folks consider that fail, War-hammer 150k and that's considered a fail.
So I am wondering what you op would consider a success number wise, does anybody have a projected line that Trion is working for?
OH and op, the reason why these forums are so nasty, is the that most folks who post here can not post this kind of stuff in their respective games forums baring getting a ban. That is why things are so nasty nowadays, or at least that is my thoughts.
Oh well back to my cave.
Totry to get back on topic...
In my opinion most peoepl who don't want to see companies succeed do so for their own selfish and usually invalid reasons such as:
They are championing a certain game that launcheds aroudn the same time or they feel is a direct comeptitor and feel threatened so run down the other game with the msitaken belief that all other games need to fail for thiers to be successful and that they can be instrumental in this.An exmaple of this cna be seen in the DCUO and Rift forums where a large percentage of haters in each is a fan of the other game.
They only have interest in a narrow niche of MMO which is currently not in favor and want all other types of MMO to fial so devs will concentrate on their beloved niche
There are of course other reasons because people are complex but most of thme boil down to selfishness and bias.
ALL this Eastern MMO talk but all of them suck ass! ... I know I like sound quality in my games and Aion for example sounds like cheesy 11 year olds grunting and spell effect noises that of an arcade game.
I have little doubt it will. Probablly not to the level the investors are expecting/hoping however.
I thank you for using some logic and not hating rift or trion because you don't like it. These qualities are hard to find on this site nowadays. I like rift, which is weird, cause I usually don't like theme parks usually. I think it's the rifts. They're fun. But anyway, this game succeeding certainly can't hurt the industry.
As anything other than a failure, at this point. Anything that allows them to keep their current subscription model and to continue to produce games.
If they have greater than a 300k subscriber base in 6 months, they should be doing cartwheels, considering the state of the industry.
While I'm admittedly loving DCUO, I usually prefer games based on original ips, rather than a book or movie folded into a shape it was never intended be. I think Rift is the only AAA game based on an original, non-existant ip that even has a shot at succeeding in the western market for the next year or two. If it fails...
Playing: FFXIV, EVE
lol what you listed is hardly innovateing.. And the fact that you have FFXIV and innovating in a single sentence is beyond me.. You wanna see a player driven market, go check out EvE.. You wanna see a barley functioning market (having player stalls dosnt make a market "player driven") then go check out FFXIV.. And tera is on the list because of no auto aiming? That's been done before..
With a list like that i can say almost all western games are innovateing -
WoW - drops loads of ez l00t
AoC - has boobs at character creation
WAR - has tons of teh pvp and is player driven pvp
LoTRo - is MMORPG made off Lord Of The Rings zomg
c'mon...
Currently Playing:
Rift + Starcraft II + Gears Of War 3 Beta
Thumbs up to the OP from me.
Play as your fav retro characters: cnd-online.net. My site: www.lysle.net. Blog: creatingaworld.blogspot.com.
Lotro,War,AoC.
They all tried to copy wow and failed miserably.
If Rift is a succes,get ready for even more wow clones.
I hope Rift fails,because western mmos will try to innovate instead of making the same old crap again.
AION, Lineage1, Lineage2, and Tera
All asian grinders.. all the "same" thing..
Rift is hardly "innovative" but either is any other asian MMORPG on the market in the last 10 years..
Honestly if you wanna look for games that are "innovateing" check out F2P.. I'll admit a lot of eastern F2P MMORPG's take risks and do something new (Uncharted Waters Online, Heroes Of Three Kingdoms, ect) but they all fail because they are, well, free to play games ran by greedy eastern companies.
Currently Playing:
Rift + Starcraft II + Gears Of War 3 Beta
I would guess the failure line is around 200K subs for a AAA MMO that been around 5 years in development, Mythic counted 250K+ to go even for WAR.
And yes, I hope Rift do better than so as well. Not sure if I will start or not but it is pretty well done and the genre needs a few successes soon. It looks good so far but AoC and WAR looked fine as well a month before launch if you check the forum at the time so anything can happen.
My guess is 250-500K and a moderate success based on what I seen of it in the betas. But it of course depends on long term playability as well. It wont be the next Wow but not the next APB either.
All I know is that I'm having beta withdrawal as we speak ... give me my server back, come on!
Yeah, hanging out on the DCUO forums, I've seen lots of this. I even caught some dude asking for a buddy key that had just trashed the game two days prior, claiming to have played it in beta.
Playing: FFXIV, EVE
Yeah,it's been done before,REALLY? omg!
You know,there is a difference beetween 2 or 3 games with the same mechanic,than 30 mmorpgs with the same old feature from wow.
And it doesn't matter,if you haven't played Eve,FFXIV has a lot of new things.
If you played 1 western game,you have played them all,yeah maybe they have 1 or 2 new features,but not core mechanics.
I'am not defending western MMORPG's.. I'am just saying that EVERYTHING you said can be said the same for eastern market.. Almost everyone knows, eastern MMORPG = GRINDERS.. And you've proven it you're self by posting that list of "innovateing" eastern MMORPGs.. FFXIV = grind, theres not even quests, you just group up and grind on mobs.. AION = grind, trust me, i hit lvl 50 before this new AION 2.0 stuff, i was first cleric on my server to do so, and i did so by grinding the same elite mobs over and over again in idratu.. TERA = still in beta but since its being westernized by a lot of the same people who westernized AION its safe to say that it, too, will be a grind.
Currently Playing:
Rift + Starcraft II + Gears Of War 3 Beta
It's easier to define success as "not a failure". "Not a failure" is that the shareholders/investors get a return on their investment. I think there is a reasonable chance that will happen through box sales (and initial subs) alone. Seems like there are far to few real risk takers in this bussines which is a shame for us consumers.
That ain't how the modern business world works, though. Rather than saying, "Let's make new types of mmos!", they'll be saying, "Let's not make mmos."
And LOTRO can hardly be called a failure.
Playing: FFXIV, EVE
Thanks for proving my point.
"If it's asian,there is only grind",you probably never played ony of those games.
FFXIV has levequests,local leves,faction leves,story quests and class quests,you are just lying.
I have a Ranger lvl 50 in aion without doing any grind,just quests,i never ran out of quests.
Tera it's too easy,there are people at lvl 40+ after 3 days.
I'll take it one step further and say that Rift will make a mint off of bored, disgruntled WoW players and those gamers just coming of age for their first mmo. Blizzard has plenty of fickle subs that are ready to defect.
The opening salvo thing is actually a very good point. Now, I don't know very much about the other games that Trion are making, but I do remember reading something about one of them - the one they were developing with SyFi channel, to be specific.
While there are no specifics about the project yet, the idea is that the MMO will launch simultaneously with a new SyFi show, and that the two will influence each other, both ways. The game would receive a weekly update following each episode, to reflect any changes in the show, and the show would, in turn, be influenced by events in the game, albeit at a slower pace - maybe once a month, maybe between season breaks (ie. one mid-season update and one end-season update).
That sounds pretty damn innovative to me, and it will be interesting to see how this plays out, or if it even plays out at all.
http://machineborn.guildportal.com - Now recruiting players!
It's all about managing your expectations. In some ways, Rift is really good, but I'm getting this nagging feeling that the devs have taken far too many shortcuts, thinking that players won't mind once they become customers. The game suffers from the Aion syndrome in that, whatever character you create, you're going to be doing one of two identical leveling paths. WoW kept us busy creating alts by given a choice of paths while leveling, at least until Cataclysm "streamlined" everything. The souls system isn't really all that fantastic once you get into it. Some trees are pretty worthless right now. The trouble is, when you're choosing a specialization, you're only given the hype for that tree. It's not until you get into it that you realize that some of the trees are situational at best and not all that interesting.
Crisscrossing Telara and having to clear a path every time is tedious. But Trion is banking that people will be so burnt out by Rift predecessors that they'll commit to the game blindly and overlook most of Rift's glaring shortcomings. From what I've seen, they may be right. The real proof will come in the first four weeks after release. I'm betting that the people who are singing its praises now will be quickly disillusioned once they become paying customers. Trion's got four weeks to clean things up, but from what I'm seeing, they may not have a clue just how to do it.
"Soloists and those who prefer small groups should never have to feel like they''re the ones getting the proverbial table scraps, as it were." - Scott Hartsman, Senior Producer, Everquest II
"People love groups. Its a fallacy that people want to play solo all the time." - Scott Hartsman, Executive Producer, Rift
From my understanding, Korean players retained their beta test characters, thus the huge leap in levels.
Beta characters have not been wiped. That said, though, those levels have been attained by people playing in five events, a few days each. People will be at level cap within the first week or two after release.
"Soloists and those who prefer small groups should never have to feel like they''re the ones getting the proverbial table scraps, as it were." - Scott Hartsman, Senior Producer, Everquest II
"People love groups. Its a fallacy that people want to play solo all the time." - Scott Hartsman, Executive Producer, Rift
People want companies to stop trying to out-WOW WoW.