Generally speaking, the first levels of MMOs are tutorial levels for people who had never any exposure to MMOs. In single player games the veterans most of the time have the option to either skip them or up the overall difficulty of the game. In MMOs those tutorials are embedded and the difficulty fixed. So, until you pass the simplify gameplay meant to teach uneducated people, you can't properly judge what an MMO has to offer.
For Rift it means leaving the tutorial area. People who reached something like level 6 and quit is like they didn't touch the game at all.
I played a beta and game is polished mainstream mmorpg. It gave me feeling that im playing EQ2 or WOW, but that isnt necessarily bad thing when you look at sales.
Perhaps a new standard in the way that the game has polish even in beta. We haven't had much of those games before, only a few has actually felt this complete this early. This is a great thing, and while the game feels very much generic, it still works well in any case. We should be happy about this kind of polish, this is what game developers should be doing. The game should feel complete even in beta, perhaps with just a few minor bugs here and there.
Trion has certainly done well with their beta phases, they were very much stress testing their servers last phase (5) and they've changed important things from phase to phase due to player feedback. Very good, yes?
Too bad the game does not feel refreshing gameplay-wise. But it certainly looks good.
Guildwars, LOTRO... There have been games well polished when they hit the beta before, frankly does GW2 look more polished than even Rift already and it havn't hit the beta yet even.
It would be great if all MMOs used that standard even if Rift wasn't first with it but as long as companies like Cryptic exists that wont happen.
Generally speaking, the first levels of MMOs are tutorial levels for people who had never any exposure to MMOs. In single player games the veterans most of the time have the option to either skip them or up the overall difficulty of the game. In MMOs those tutorials are embedded and the difficulty fixed. So, until you pass the simplify gameplay meant to teach uneducated people, you can't properly judge what an MMO has to offer.
For Rift it means leaving the tutorial area. People who reached something like level 6 and quit is like they didn't touch the game at all.
If it's for people who have never played an MMO then that's even MORE reason to make it fun
Can you imagine if a single player game was boring for the first 10 hours but had a decent endgame?
Cause that's all i ever see with MMOs. Rift is no exeption
MMOs played: WoW, Star Wars Galaxies, Star Wars: The Old Republic, Guild Wars, Planetside, Global Agenda, Star Trek Online, RIFT, Everquest 2, Age of Conan, Warhammer Online, EvE online, APB Best MMO Companies: Trion Worlds, ArenaNet, CCP Worst MMO Companies: Electronic Arts
The only "standard" it seems to be hitting that I agree all new releases should aspire to is a solid, stable and "ready for release" launch. This is what RIFT seems to be hitting... which is a good thing.
Now, if it's rewarded with a very healthy playerbase, significantly larger than that of most other MMOs that come out "less than ready"... and more of those people stick around than do in other "less than ready" games... that should send a signal to developers and (especially) publishers that they should be doing the same. Keep the games in the oven 'til they're really ready, and that decision should not be made by the number-crunchers alone.
Now.. LoTRO enjoyed a very solid and stable launch and was highly regarded as being the first in a long while to release in as ready a state as it did. Unfortunately, that didn't really make a huge difference in the long run with its sub numbers. Turbine adopting their hybrid payment model seemed to have more of an impact than the condition of the game when it launched. This kinda makes me wonder if people really ultimately care that much about how stable a game is at launch and if it really has that much an influence on them... or if it's just yet another thing to complain about on forums. I'm inclined that at the end of the day, whether or not they like the game is ultimately what matters. That's topic for another thread, though, and I digress...
In any case... The only standard I think a developer should set is for the stability, polish and "release-ready" condition of its game at launch... That would include plenty of content, all basic game systems in place and working, ample customer support on-hand and well equipped to help people out and so forth.
Beyond that, there's no one specific design aspect for the game itself that I think should be "standard" genre-wide. I would personally not be interested in seeing a new bunch of games being released that all copy the "rift" idea (which is basically a significantly upgraded version of PQs from WAR, as has been mentioned). However, other forms of dynamic content would be very welcome. The concept of dynamic and more interesting content should be a standard... not the specific implementation of it.
Of course, we're now dealing with MMOs being "big business". And, in "big business", companies tend to be content to wait for someone else to take the risk on something new... and then go bat-shit copying and milking it with their own knock-off games.
Anyway... I think my answer's in there somewhere lol.
"If you just step away for a sec you will clearly see all the pot holes in the road, and the cash shop selling asphalt..." - Mimzel on F2P/Cash Shops
Why do you think EQ2 put in a stylized alternate look for characters?
To appeal to Asian markets. Originally, the stylized models were just in the Asian release of the game, but there was an EQ2 community demand for them because they looked better than the original models.
"You'll never win an argument with an idiot because he is too stupid to recognize his own defeat." ~Anonymous
The only "standard" it seems to be hitting that I agree all new releases should aspire to is a solid, stable and "ready for release" launch. This is what RIFT seems to be hitting... which is a good thing.
Now, if it's rewarded with a very healthy playerbase, significantly larger than that of most other MMOs that come out "less than ready"... and more of those people stick around than do in other "less than ready" games... that should send a signal to developers and (especially) publishers that they should be doing the same. Keep the games in the oven 'til they're really ready, and that decision should not be made by the number-crunchers alone.
Now.. LoTRO enjoyed a very solid and stable launch and was highly regarded as being the first in a long while to release in as ready a state as it did. Unfortunately, that didn't really make a huge difference in the long run with its sub numbers. Turbine adopting their hybrid payment model seemed to have more of an impact than the condition of the game when it launched. This kinda makes me wonder if people really ultimately care that much about how stable a game is at launch and if it really has that much an influence on them... or if it's just yet another thing to complain about on forums. That's topic for another thread, though, and I digress...
In any case... The only standard I think a developer should set is for the stability, polish and "release-ready" condition of its game at launch... That would include plenty of content, all basic game systems in place and working, ample customer support on-hand and well equipped to help people out and so forth.
Beyond that, there's no one specific design aspect for the game itself that I think should be "standard". I would personally not be interested in seeing a new bunch of games being released that all copy the "rift" idea (which is basically a significantly upgraded version of PQs from WAR, as has been mentioned). However, other forms of dynamic content would be very welcome. The concept of dynamic and more interesting content should be a standard... not the specific implementation of it.
Of course, we're now dealing with MMOs being "big business". And, in "big business", companies tend to be content to wait for someone else to take the risk on something new... and then go bat-shit copying and milking it with their own knock-off games.
Anyway... I think my answer's in there somewhere lol.
If that's the case then MMOs are a sad genre indeed
I'de love to see the shit storm if bethesda came out and said
"Today, we reached a new standard with single player games. And that standard is that they WORK like their intended to at release"
MMOs played: WoW, Star Wars Galaxies, Star Wars: The Old Republic, Guild Wars, Planetside, Global Agenda, Star Trek Online, RIFT, Everquest 2, Age of Conan, Warhammer Online, EvE online, APB Best MMO Companies: Trion Worlds, ArenaNet, CCP Worst MMO Companies: Electronic Arts
Why do you think EQ2 put in a stylized alternate look for characters?
To appeal to Asian markets. Originally, the stylized models were just in the Asian release of the game, but there was an EQ2 community demand for them because they looked better than the original models.
The entire reason for that move was the eq2 extended (Free to play version) so they would get a chance at that asian market again, and it sure made a ton of folks mad. I was glad we could still use the original models although you got to jump through hoops to change that out, unless your kerran or rotunga.
There was no cry for those models in fact we had a thread that went hundreds of pages complaining about the removal of noob island, and the change to the asain models. Nobody wanted it, and in fact they are still complaining about it, except for the eq2-extended free to play forums.
If that's the case then MMOs are a sad genre indeed
I'de love to see the shit storm if bethesda came out and said
"Today, we reached a new standard with single player games. And that standard is that they WORK like their intended to at release"
I think you missed my point. I'm not saying "all developers should aspire to is releasing a stable game, and that's enough". Not at all.
I further elaborate on what I'm saying in this paragraph (quoted for your convenience):
"Beyond that, there's no one specific design aspect for the game itself that I think should be "standard". I would personally not be interested in seeing a new bunch of games being released that all copy the "rift" idea (which is basically a significantly upgraded version of PQs from WAR, as has been mentioned). However, other forms of dynamic content would be very welcome. The concept of dynamic and more interesting content should be a standard... not the specific implementation of it."
In other words... Beyond the state of a game at launch, developers/designers should aspire to meeting other standards in concept... but not in specific implementation.
In other words, Dynamic Content is a great thing to be considered a "standard" in MMO development. However, the specific implementation that Rift uses (its rifts) should not be the "standard" of how every MMO implements it.
"If you just step away for a sec you will clearly see all the pot holes in the road, and the cash shop selling asphalt..." - Mimzel on F2P/Cash Shops
Generally speaking, the first levels of MMOs are tutorial levels for people who had never any exposure to MMOs. In single player games the veterans most of the time have the option to either skip them or up the overall difficulty of the game. In MMOs those tutorials are embedded and the difficulty fixed. So, until you pass the simplify gameplay meant to teach uneducated people, you can't properly judge what an MMO has to offer.
For Rift it means leaving the tutorial area. People who reached something like level 6 and quit is like they didn't touch the game at all.
If it's for people who have never played an MMO then that's even MORE reason to make it fun
Can you imagine if a single player game was boring for the first 10 hours but had a decent endgame?
Cause that's all i ever see with MMOs. Rift is no exeption
Make it fun sure. Make it complicated from the start ... not so much.
Lets look at abilities. MMOs generally give a couple abilities at level 1, then a couple more at next level and so on. While a veteran would find passable having 10 abilities at level 1, a freshman would get overwhelmed. So for you, anything less than a dozen abilities is not fun. For the fresh starter though, anything more than a couple is a major headache.
To put it in another context, how many people have played EVE as their first MMO? And I'm not talking nowadays that the game actually has a tutorial. If you have friends to tutor you, things are bearable. If not though, the game is not as fun as you think it is for a veteran.
Why do you think EQ2 put in a stylized alternate look for characters?
To appeal to Asian markets. Originally, the stylized models were just in the Asian release of the game, but there was an EQ2 community demand for them because they looked better than the original models.
The entire reason for that move was the eq2 extended (Free to play version) so they would get a chance at that asian market again, and it sure made a ton of folks mad. I was glad we could still use the original models although you got to jump through hoops to change that out, unless your kerran or rotunga.
There was no cry for those models in fact we had a thread that went hundreds of pages complaining about the removal of noob island, and the change to the asain models. Nobody wanted it, and in fact they are still complaining about it, except for the eq2-extended free to play forums.
Yeah... SOE and EQ2 have been a wonderful example of how a developer can muck with a game too much. Every time I would give the game another go, they'd gone and drastically changed some aspect(s) of it.
"If you just step away for a sec you will clearly see all the pot holes in the road, and the cash shop selling asphalt..." - Mimzel on F2P/Cash Shops
If Rift were standard for gaming then we are F##k. Rift Beta 5, feels like a B2P or F2P game.
If every game had a company like TRION to back it up, we'd be in a lot better place than we are now. Unless you prefer Vanguard, WARhammer or Cryptic in general style disasters.
Once SWTOR and GW2 gets released people won't settle for an MMO that doesn't at least have full voice overs
Wait for those 2 then talk to me about standards
Voice overs didn't help EQ2 dominate WoW. Quite the contrary.
You're missing the part where 90% of people couldn't play it cause of the system requirments
You're arguing that SW:TOR will have outdated graphics WoW style, so as to be played by any toaster out there, but will be universally hailed as the best thing due to the voice overs?
I sure hope the esc button works on those "voice overs", if ME or DAO was any indication. The first time was interesting, the second time though ... esc was a saviour.
Sure you can skip
You're missing the point though
SWTOR graphics are stylized so they won't go out of date
With Rift however. Most people will either A: Not be able to play it
Or B: Be able to play it, but it will look like trash cause the graphics are so out dated
Why do you think EQ2 put in a stylized alternate look for characters?
stylized graphics and terrible animations and you think voice overs will hide these glaring issues?
EQ2 put stylised characters to appeal to their eastern audience.
Besides, it's a myth that stylised graphics don't age. They do age, just not as fast as the more realistic ones. It also depends on how well they are made in both cases. For example and in my opinion, Lineage II more realistic looking graphics (compared to wow) have aged gracefully and sustained the passage of time.
Rifts graphics are stylized as well and will last just as long. The game is basically a darker grittier Warhammer minus the playable Orcs. I don't see how anyone could place in the realistic pile.
Once SWTOR and GW2 gets released people won't settle for an MMO that doesn't at least have full voice overs
Wait for those 2 then talk to me about standards
Voice overs didn't help EQ2 dominate WoW. Quite the contrary.
You're missing the part where 90% of people couldn't play it cause of the system requirments
You're arguing that SW:TOR will have outdated graphics WoW style, so as to be played by any toaster out there, but will be universally hailed as the best thing due to the voice overs?
I sure hope the esc button works on those "voice overs", if ME or DAO was any indication. The first time was interesting, the second time though ... esc was a saviour.
Sure you can skip
You're missing the point though
SWTOR graphics are stylized so they won't go out of date
With Rift however. Most people will either A: Not be able to play it
Or B: Be able to play it, but it will look like trash cause the graphics are so out dated
Why do you think EQ2 put in a stylized alternate look for characters?
stylized graphics and terrible animations and you think voice overs will hide these glaring issues?
They polished the animations recently
And yes
Stylized graphics are ageless
Look at WoW if you want proof
Oh but let me guess you're one of those guys who are like "MAN F WOW, I'm a REBEL, man"
MMOs played: WoW, Star Wars Galaxies, Star Wars: The Old Republic, Guild Wars, Planetside, Global Agenda, Star Trek Online, RIFT, Everquest 2, Age of Conan, Warhammer Online, EvE online, APB Best MMO Companies: Trion Worlds, ArenaNet, CCP Worst MMO Companies: Electronic Arts
Rifts graphics are stylized as well and will last just as long. The game is basically a darker grittier Warhammer minus the playable Orcs. I don't see how anyone could place in the realistic pile.
Oh boy darker and grittier
I'm sure the call of duty fans will jump right on board
Rift graphics are not stylized
MMOs played: WoW, Star Wars Galaxies, Star Wars: The Old Republic, Guild Wars, Planetside, Global Agenda, Star Trek Online, RIFT, Everquest 2, Age of Conan, Warhammer Online, EvE online, APB Best MMO Companies: Trion Worlds, ArenaNet, CCP Worst MMO Companies: Electronic Arts
If Rift were standard for gaming then we are F##k. Rift Beta 5, feels like a B2P or F2P game.
My thoughts exactly
I went through the entire thing thinking "It's like really playing perfect world!"
MMOs played: WoW, Star Wars Galaxies, Star Wars: The Old Republic, Guild Wars, Planetside, Global Agenda, Star Trek Online, RIFT, Everquest 2, Age of Conan, Warhammer Online, EvE online, APB Best MMO Companies: Trion Worlds, ArenaNet, CCP Worst MMO Companies: Electronic Arts
Comments
Generally speaking, the first levels of MMOs are tutorial levels for people who had never any exposure to MMOs. In single player games the veterans most of the time have the option to either skip them or up the overall difficulty of the game. In MMOs those tutorials are embedded and the difficulty fixed. So, until you pass the simplify gameplay meant to teach uneducated people, you can't properly judge what an MMO has to offer.
For Rift it means leaving the tutorial area. People who reached something like level 6 and quit is like they didn't touch the game at all.
Obvious troll tread.
Boring and generic is not the new standard for gaming.
If WoW = The Beatles
and WAR = Led Zeppelin
Then LotrO = Pink Floyd
Farthest thing from standard, well I hope so at least. If boring and sub par is standard we re all screwed.
I played a beta and game is polished mainstream mmorpg. It gave me feeling that im playing EQ2 or WOW, but that isnt necessarily bad thing when you look at sales.
Same old in good polished package.
Guildwars, LOTRO... There have been games well polished when they hit the beta before, frankly does GW2 look more polished than even Rift already and it havn't hit the beta yet even.
It would be great if all MMOs used that standard even if Rift wasn't first with it but as long as companies like Cryptic exists that wont happen.
OP: It's a decent game. Why does this offend you so?
"You'll never win an argument with an idiot because he is too stupid to recognize his own defeat." ~Anonymous
If it's for people who have never played an MMO then that's even MORE reason to make it fun
Can you imagine if a single player game was boring for the first 10 hours but had a decent endgame?
Cause that's all i ever see with MMOs. Rift is no exeption
MMOs played: WoW, Star Wars Galaxies, Star Wars: The Old Republic, Guild Wars, Planetside, Global Agenda, Star Trek Online, RIFT, Everquest 2, Age of Conan, Warhammer Online, EvE online, APB
Best MMO Companies: Trion Worlds, ArenaNet, CCP
Worst MMO Companies: Electronic Arts
The only "standard" it seems to be hitting that I agree all new releases should aspire to is a solid, stable and "ready for release" launch. This is what RIFT seems to be hitting... which is a good thing.
Now, if it's rewarded with a very healthy playerbase, significantly larger than that of most other MMOs that come out "less than ready"... and more of those people stick around than do in other "less than ready" games... that should send a signal to developers and (especially) publishers that they should be doing the same. Keep the games in the oven 'til they're really ready, and that decision should not be made by the number-crunchers alone.
Now.. LoTRO enjoyed a very solid and stable launch and was highly regarded as being the first in a long while to release in as ready a state as it did. Unfortunately, that didn't really make a huge difference in the long run with its sub numbers. Turbine adopting their hybrid payment model seemed to have more of an impact than the condition of the game when it launched. This kinda makes me wonder if people really ultimately care that much about how stable a game is at launch and if it really has that much an influence on them... or if it's just yet another thing to complain about on forums. I'm inclined that at the end of the day, whether or not they like the game is ultimately what matters. That's topic for another thread, though, and I digress...
In any case... The only standard I think a developer should set is for the stability, polish and "release-ready" condition of its game at launch... That would include plenty of content, all basic game systems in place and working, ample customer support on-hand and well equipped to help people out and so forth.
Beyond that, there's no one specific design aspect for the game itself that I think should be "standard" genre-wide. I would personally not be interested in seeing a new bunch of games being released that all copy the "rift" idea (which is basically a significantly upgraded version of PQs from WAR, as has been mentioned). However, other forms of dynamic content would be very welcome. The concept of dynamic and more interesting content should be a standard... not the specific implementation of it.
Of course, we're now dealing with MMOs being "big business". And, in "big business", companies tend to be content to wait for someone else to take the risk on something new... and then go bat-shit copying and milking it with their own knock-off games.
Anyway... I think my answer's in there somewhere lol.
and the cash shop selling asphalt..." - Mimzel on F2P/Cash Shops
To appeal to Asian markets. Originally, the stylized models were just in the Asian release of the game, but there was an EQ2 community demand for them because they looked better than the original models.
"You'll never win an argument with an idiot because he is too stupid to recognize his own defeat." ~Anonymous
If that's the case then MMOs are a sad genre indeed
I'de love to see the shit storm if bethesda came out and said
"Today, we reached a new standard with single player games. And that standard is that they WORK like their intended to at release"
MMOs played: WoW, Star Wars Galaxies, Star Wars: The Old Republic, Guild Wars, Planetside, Global Agenda, Star Trek Online, RIFT, Everquest 2, Age of Conan, Warhammer Online, EvE online, APB
Best MMO Companies: Trion Worlds, ArenaNet, CCP
Worst MMO Companies: Electronic Arts
The entire reason for that move was the eq2 extended (Free to play version) so they would get a chance at that asian market again, and it sure made a ton of folks mad. I was glad we could still use the original models although you got to jump through hoops to change that out, unless your kerran or rotunga.
There was no cry for those models in fact we had a thread that went hundreds of pages complaining about the removal of noob island, and the change to the asain models. Nobody wanted it, and in fact they are still complaining about it, except for the eq2-extended free to play forums.
I think you missed my point. I'm not saying "all developers should aspire to is releasing a stable game, and that's enough". Not at all.
I further elaborate on what I'm saying in this paragraph (quoted for your convenience):
"Beyond that, there's no one specific design aspect for the game itself that I think should be "standard". I would personally not be interested in seeing a new bunch of games being released that all copy the "rift" idea (which is basically a significantly upgraded version of PQs from WAR, as has been mentioned). However, other forms of dynamic content would be very welcome. The concept of dynamic and more interesting content should be a standard... not the specific implementation of it."
In other words... Beyond the state of a game at launch, developers/designers should aspire to meeting other standards in concept... but not in specific implementation.
In other words, Dynamic Content is a great thing to be considered a "standard" in MMO development. However, the specific implementation that Rift uses (its rifts) should not be the "standard" of how every MMO implements it.
and the cash shop selling asphalt..." - Mimzel on F2P/Cash Shops
Make it fun sure. Make it complicated from the start ... not so much.
Lets look at abilities. MMOs generally give a couple abilities at level 1, then a couple more at next level and so on. While a veteran would find passable having 10 abilities at level 1, a freshman would get overwhelmed. So for you, anything less than a dozen abilities is not fun. For the fresh starter though, anything more than a couple is a major headache.
To put it in another context, how many people have played EVE as their first MMO? And I'm not talking nowadays that the game actually has a tutorial. If you have friends to tutor you, things are bearable. If not though, the game is not as fun as you think it is for a veteran.
Yeah... SOE and EQ2 have been a wonderful example of how a developer can muck with a game too much. Every time I would give the game another go, they'd gone and drastically changed some aspect(s) of it.
and the cash shop selling asphalt..." - Mimzel on F2P/Cash Shops
I actually liked the EQ2 extended models better. It's a matter of preference.
If Rift were standard for gaming then we are F##k. Rift Beta 5, feels like a B2P or F2P game.
Pardon my English as it is not my 1st language
If every game had a company like TRION to back it up, we'd be in a lot better place than we are now. Unless you prefer Vanguard, WARhammer or Cryptic in general style disasters.
stylized graphics and terrible animations and you think voice overs will hide these glaring issues?
Source?
EQ2 put stylised characters to appeal to their eastern audience.
Besides, it's a myth that stylised graphics don't age. They do age, just not as fast as the more realistic ones. It also depends on how well they are made in both cases. For example and in my opinion, Lineage II more realistic looking graphics (compared to wow) have aged gracefully and sustained the passage of time.
Playing: Rift, LotRO
Waiting on: GW2, BP
Are you sure of that?
They polished the animations recently
And yes
Stylized graphics are ageless
Look at WoW if you want proof
Oh but let me guess you're one of those guys who are like "MAN F WOW, I'm a REBEL, man"
MMOs played: WoW, Star Wars Galaxies, Star Wars: The Old Republic, Guild Wars, Planetside, Global Agenda, Star Trek Online, RIFT, Everquest 2, Age of Conan, Warhammer Online, EvE online, APB
Best MMO Companies: Trion Worlds, ArenaNet, CCP
Worst MMO Companies: Electronic Arts
Oh boy darker and grittier
I'm sure the call of duty fans will jump right on board
Rift graphics are not stylized
MMOs played: WoW, Star Wars Galaxies, Star Wars: The Old Republic, Guild Wars, Planetside, Global Agenda, Star Trek Online, RIFT, Everquest 2, Age of Conan, Warhammer Online, EvE online, APB
Best MMO Companies: Trion Worlds, ArenaNet, CCP
Worst MMO Companies: Electronic Arts
My thoughts exactly
I went through the entire thing thinking "It's like really playing perfect world!"
MMOs played: WoW, Star Wars Galaxies, Star Wars: The Old Republic, Guild Wars, Planetside, Global Agenda, Star Trek Online, RIFT, Everquest 2, Age of Conan, Warhammer Online, EvE online, APB
Best MMO Companies: Trion Worlds, ArenaNet, CCP
Worst MMO Companies: Electronic Arts