It needs to be a hybrid, IMO. 50% sandbox/ 50% themepark. It should be possible to play it like a sandbox game. But also possible to play like a themepark game. Or you could do some of the themepark content and play it like a sanbox after that.
Quests should be for items only. No quest based leveling. Not linear in any way. No instances... An open world that you need to explore.
Wouldn't a few optional very long/ deep story quests in a sandbox be pretty much the same thing? Maybe have a new one added every 3 months.
Yeah, I think the 50-50 split is wrong, but the idea is solid. I think what you want is a thoroughly Sandbox game with some Themepark type elements to spice it up, in the form of special, detailed, event/story/quest sorts of things. I've always felt that "Events" in other games, like UO and AC, could have been spiced up considerably by adding this sort of element. I've also always felt that games should make tools for their GMs/Event people to easily lay things out, for faster and wider scope of "it all".
Of course there is, but I do agree a hybrid is best -- but I'd stack it more towards theme then some of the rest here perhaps. Something similar to DAOC's epic armor and class quests and maybe some much smaller, but very hard quests thrown in that can break up the day. 75%/25%. I also think BGs are a good addition where they influence the themepark -- as long as they don't control it.
Wandering NPCs of the old days. But yes ones that acutally roam around from place to place instead of being always in a predictable spot or somewhere in between would be great.
One of the reasons I've always wanted a deep AI system for NPCs to wander, but more than that, to build and develop "homes", is so that a game with a huge, huge world can allow that to happen and not have to place every individual encounter.
Sort of a "Genesis" AI.
Not an easy thing to make, but I think doable enough to work, if the effort (expense) were put into it. And if I were a big game developer, I'd make it generic enough that it can work in any MMORPG system. And use it again for that next game.
Of course there is, but I do agree a hybrid is best -- but I'd stack it more towards theme then some of the rest here perhaps. Something similar to DAOC's epic armor and class quests and maybe some much smaller, but very hard quests thrown in that can break up the day. 75%/25%. I also think BGs are a good addition where they influence the themepark -- as long as they don't control it.
But here's the thing. If you build a game with that sort of game play, then you have to give that game play more importance and meaning. By doing so, you are lessening other aspects of game play, and leaning back to the "Clone" style of game.
In effect, you are building "Item Grind" back into the game (with more importance). You lose the Sandbox that way. You add to the power gaps, you lessen player social in-game interaction, and pretty soon you have to start dividing the world up into zones for power spaces again.
One of the reasons I've always wanted a deep AI system for NPCs to wander, but more than that, to build and develop "homes", is so that a game with a huge, huge world can allow that to happen and not have to place every individual encounter.
Sort of a "Genesis" AI.
Not an easy thing to make, but I think doable enough to work, if the effort (expense) were put into it. And if I were a big game developer, I'd make it generic enough that it can work in any MMORPG system. And use it again for that next game.
I'm picturing somebody running the AI program to seed the world, get it set up naturally, have the NPCs spaced out and in interesting, organic ways...
... and come back overnight to find out they all killed eacho ther and there's just one really angry level 2billion megaNPC waiting for PCs to kill, living in a post apocalyptic wasteland of destroyed housing and deforested, once fertile territory.
One of the reasons I've always wanted a deep AI system for NPCs to wander, but more than that, to build and develop "homes", is so that a game with a huge, huge world can allow that to happen and not have to place every individual encounter.
Sort of a "Genesis" AI.
Not an easy thing to make, but I think doable enough to work, if the effort (expense) were put into it. And if I were a big game developer, I'd make it generic enough that it can work in any MMORPG system. And use it again for that next game.
I'm picturing somebody running the AI program to seed the world, get it set up naturally, have the NPCs spaced out and in interesting, organic ways...
... and come back overnight to find out they all killed eacho ther and there's just one really angry level 2billion megaNPC waiting for PCs to kill, living in a post apocalyptic wasteland of destroyed housing and deforested, once fertile territory.
Heh, that would be something that would have to be accounted for. Would this be hard to do? I don't think so, you just have to think about it and come up with solutions.
Lets take Dragons as an example, assuming they are top level MOBs in your game.
Lets give Dragons a territorial aspect, they claim areas and zones of control from other Dragons. This spreads them out.
Lets give them an AI that seeks mountain top caves for homes, will other MOBs in their territory but not too close, and are "happy" as long as they can hunt their food.
When two come into conflict, lets give it a tactical battle that's streamlined, and allows for some randomness to the victor. The defeated might escape or die.
Lets make Dragons powerful in short term combat, but quite beatable against overwhelming MOB numbers (Large Orc tribe, for example.) Again, some randomness and some AI aspects. Dragon hungry because of the Orcs hunting it's food? Hungry enough to attack them when it senses they are "strong" to it? Does it decide to leave in search of a better "home" or attack? Does it win or lose?
Does the Orc tribe suddenly become weak after winning a battle with another Orc tribe?
Does the Dragon attack, lose, injured, but doesn't leave, and then have a confrontation with a weaker dragon that sees it as injured and thus beatable?
You know, someone would actually have to design a complete system to work it all through and make it work. Is that not possible? Youd get a great world building tool in the process, as well as an ongoing world evolution tool, which all would save loads of developer time once this is made. And make a world that's much more fluid and interesting for the players for years to come.
And when players meet AI, you have some great PvE. As well as "story".
As title says...is there no market for sci-fi/fantasy PvE sandbox/open world games?
Not really no... not if the developer wants to make a decent buck. Other than EVE the rest scrape by with their 'niche' player base.
The vast majority don't want it and don't need it. I know a handful of you on this site go on about it all the time, but your handful of subs won't keep an MMO running...
I think its clear that you'd have to have dynamic content the main focus of a PvE sandbox, right? I'm not seeing this going back to endlessly killing of wandering NPCs spread around the world. To make the whole game like that would be a a huge feat.
The only difference between a PVP sandbox and a PVE sandbox is PVP. If you take the PvP out of Xyson, it doesn't stop being a sandbox, especally since there's supposed talk of PVE servers for it.
Second Life is the epitome of a sandbox, and not only does it not have PVP, it also doesn't have PVE. And it's wildly popular, probably because you don't just build with offered tools, you literally BUILD. You can import things from 3d software you crafted by hand and it becomes part of the game world. It's insane the amount of things you can make in that game. I personally don't care for it, but I know enough about it to see exactly why a PVE sandbox would work.
Take the elements of Second Life and add in actual RPG features and you have a PVE sandbox, with no PVP. And one I'd play in a heartbeat.
"Forums aren't for intelligent discussion; they're for blow-hards with unwavering opinions."
Comments
Yeah, I think the 50-50 split is wrong, but the idea is solid. I think what you want is a thoroughly Sandbox game with some Themepark type elements to spice it up, in the form of special, detailed, event/story/quest sorts of things. I've always felt that "Events" in other games, like UO and AC, could have been spiced up considerably by adding this sort of element. I've also always felt that games should make tools for their GMs/Event people to easily lay things out, for faster and wider scope of "it all".
Once upon a time....
Of course there is, but I do agree a hybrid is best -- but I'd stack it more towards theme then some of the rest here perhaps. Something similar to DAOC's epic armor and class quests and maybe some much smaller, but very hard quests thrown in that can break up the day. 75%/25%. I also think BGs are a good addition where they influence the themepark -- as long as they don't control it.
One of the reasons I've always wanted a deep AI system for NPCs to wander, but more than that, to build and develop "homes", is so that a game with a huge, huge world can allow that to happen and not have to place every individual encounter.
Sort of a "Genesis" AI.
Not an easy thing to make, but I think doable enough to work, if the effort (expense) were put into it. And if I were a big game developer, I'd make it generic enough that it can work in any MMORPG system. And use it again for that next game.
Once upon a time....
But here's the thing. If you build a game with that sort of game play, then you have to give that game play more importance and meaning. By doing so, you are lessening other aspects of game play, and leaning back to the "Clone" style of game.
In effect, you are building "Item Grind" back into the game (with more importance). You lose the Sandbox that way. You add to the power gaps, you lessen player social in-game interaction, and pretty soon you have to start dividing the world up into zones for power spaces again.
Once upon a time....
I'm picturing somebody running the AI program to seed the world, get it set up naturally, have the NPCs spaced out and in interesting, organic ways...
... and come back overnight to find out they all killed eacho ther and there's just one really angry level 2billion megaNPC waiting for PCs to kill, living in a post apocalyptic wasteland of destroyed housing and deforested, once fertile territory.
Heh, that would be something that would have to be accounted for. Would this be hard to do? I don't think so, you just have to think about it and come up with solutions.
Lets take Dragons as an example, assuming they are top level MOBs in your game.
Lets give Dragons a territorial aspect, they claim areas and zones of control from other Dragons. This spreads them out.
Lets give them an AI that seeks mountain top caves for homes, will other MOBs in their territory but not too close, and are "happy" as long as they can hunt their food.
When two come into conflict, lets give it a tactical battle that's streamlined, and allows for some randomness to the victor. The defeated might escape or die.
Lets make Dragons powerful in short term combat, but quite beatable against overwhelming MOB numbers (Large Orc tribe, for example.) Again, some randomness and some AI aspects. Dragon hungry because of the Orcs hunting it's food? Hungry enough to attack them when it senses they are "strong" to it? Does it decide to leave in search of a better "home" or attack? Does it win or lose?
Does the Orc tribe suddenly become weak after winning a battle with another Orc tribe?
Does the Dragon attack, lose, injured, but doesn't leave, and then have a confrontation with a weaker dragon that sees it as injured and thus beatable?
You know, someone would actually have to design a complete system to work it all through and make it work. Is that not possible? Youd get a great world building tool in the process, as well as an ongoing world evolution tool, which all would save loads of developer time once this is made. And make a world that's much more fluid and interesting for the players for years to come.
And when players meet AI, you have some great PvE. As well as "story".
Once upon a time....
Not really no... not if the developer wants to make a decent buck. Other than EVE the rest scrape by with their 'niche' player base.
The vast majority don't want it and don't need it. I know a handful of you on this site go on about it all the time, but your handful of subs won't keep an MMO running...
The only difference between a PVP sandbox and a PVE sandbox is PVP. If you take the PvP out of Xyson, it doesn't stop being a sandbox, especally since there's supposed talk of PVE servers for it.
Second Life is the epitome of a sandbox, and not only does it not have PVP, it also doesn't have PVE. And it's wildly popular, probably because you don't just build with offered tools, you literally BUILD. You can import things from 3d software you crafted by hand and it becomes part of the game world. It's insane the amount of things you can make in that game. I personally don't care for it, but I know enough about it to see exactly why a PVE sandbox would work.
Take the elements of Second Life and add in actual RPG features and you have a PVE sandbox, with no PVP. And one I'd play in a heartbeat.
"Forums aren't for intelligent discussion; they're for blow-hards with unwavering opinions."