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Construction or Destruction Sandbox?
gobla
Member UncommonPosts: 1,412
Hey all,
I've been reading up on this game and I'm getting pretty excited about it. Seriously considiring to buy it. Just one more question.
Is this a sandbox whose focus is on construction or destruction?
Basically a focus on destruction means that the system is ruled by scarcity. Players fight over limited resources and then use these resources to acquire even more resources by taking them away from others. In a real sandbox you could say that every player can build a sandcastle, but there's a limit on sand so after the initial phase the game's about destroying other people their sandcastles so that you can increase the size of your own and thereby destroy even more sandcastles. A great example of this would be EVE, especially 0.0. 0.0 is locked in eternal warfare because there's scarcity. There's only so many systems and so many resources so players are eternally fighting over them. Construction of ships, stations etc. is most often a means to control zones, destroy other players etc. It's rarely the goal.
A focus on construction would mean that the system is ruled by abundance. Players can fight if they want but because resources are abundant there's also the option of simply moving elsewhere. There's no real sense of ownership of resources. If you want to build your sandcastle by stealing sand from another player then that's an option, but if you want to get the sand without conflict from nature then that's also an option. War is temporary, conflict may arise but it's not a given. Players and groups always have the option to simply move away and rebuild what they had without having to steal it from yet another group. I'm not sure if there's any examples of this in the MMO world but I'm hoping that Xsyon will be one. In the end in such a game the goal would be the construction of whatever you want. Destruction could be a means to achieve this, but there are also other means.
Any answers would be greatly appreciated. Thanks in advance.
We are the bunny.
Resistance is futile.
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Comments
This reads like a thesis to a term paper.
I'm curious to know the answer as well.
This game has causded a bit of a stir and I too know nothing about this, well-worded OP that would be interesting high-level description to know about. *time to check this out*
http://www.gdcvault.com/play/1014633/Classic-Game-Postmortem
Seeing as term papers are, or atleast are supposed to be, well-written, logical, intelligent and substantiated texts I thank you for the compliment.
We are the bunny.
Resistance is futile.
''/\/\'''''/\/\''''''/\/\
( o.o) ( o.o) ( o.o)
(")("),,(")("),(")(")
Destruction...but we are not sure to what level.
The main resource is junkpiles. These will run out. The game starts in the prelude. Later stages of the game will have things like mines etc but we do not know exactly to what extent and to what level these resources will entail.
If Xsyon is played by any race other than humans, then the highlighted part contains possible scenarios.
No amount of abundance is abundant enough in a virtual world.
No amount of freedom to move elsewhere will prevent the adamant contention of ownership of a particular area.
No amount of avenues outside war will prevent war from being the most pursued avenue if it is present. War will only be temporary in a game where the code specifically prevents ongoing war.
Your faith in people is admirable, though.
Edit: It was a logical, intelligent and well-written post. I may not agree with what is being contended in it, but I really enjoyed reading it.
There isn't a "right" or "wrong" way to play, if you want to use a screwdriver to put nails into wood, have at it, simply don't complain when the guy next to you with the hammer is doing it much better and easier. - Allein
"Graphics are often supplied by Engines that (some) MMORPG's are built in" - Spuffyre
Definintely destruction,
Right now the best places to build your villiage is near the junk piles. Expect someone to want your site if they can't find a good one of their own.
I do think you'd find A Tale in the Desert to be a MMO based on Construction, players cooperate and build there w/o any conflict. Guess there's a market for everything.
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Just trying to live long enough to play a new, released MMORPG, playing New Worlds atm
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"This is the most intelligent, well qualified and articulate response to a post I have ever seen on these forums. It's a shame most people here won't have the attention span to read past the second line." - Anon
It's more destruction. Resources are limited, later when scrap piles are depleted and more resources(mining as well) are introduced we'll be able to claim aditonal lands with rare resources and fight over them.
Xsyon wll start with two servers. Population is big and animals don't have place to breed. Their AI is set to stay away from human settlments and they run away into the mist(hidden part of the world not yet ready for release).
There will be War and Peace server, they will start the same the only difference is that War will have safezones removed as soon as defensive structures are in game. Peace will have them removed after Prelude as initially planned.
Both servers will evolve with population, names are like that to give initial direction, any changes in ruleset will be minor.
I will just add that safe zones in Xsyon are your tribes claimed land. There are no large areas or zones that are safe for everyone to run around in. You are also apparently safe when you create a character until you take an action.
Wa min God! Se æx on min heafod is!
Most MMOs, hell, most games, strike a balance between the two. Scarcity, limited resources, makes things fun. Time limits, life limits, item limits, turn limits. Without these limits you can just do anything and then it's more of a simulator. Garry's Mod or MS Paint. You can create anything, only real "resources" are time and skill. In any case I don't agree with this classifications. Scarcity and competition take many forms.
Example: In Runescape, there is an abundance of regular wood logs for which no one will compete. By contrast, magic logs are harder to find, have longer respawn times, and require a higher woodcutting and a higher level hatchet to acquire. Thus there is competition (in the form of prices offered) for magic logs. Competition for resources does not have to take the form of violence. Auction houses reflect competition for scarce resources. An economy is a good place to find non-violent competition for scarcity.
Example 2: In any PvE setting, each player must manage their health and their secondary bar (mana, energy, whatever) as a resource. Interesting interactions between various classes abuse the different strengths of characters. For example, tanks are good at improving the value of a single point of health through mitigation, so giving them more of the groups available distributable health (healing) is a good idea. Same with mana-increasing abilities on those able to spend such a resource best, like a wizard. PvE is a good way to test your ability to deal with scarcity (mostly in the short term) without having to compete against other players.
Eample 3: In Guild Wars, everyone is currently crazy to get titles and achievements. One requires that you get wins in the random arena, randomized 4v4 PvP. In the short term, these teams must deal with the scarcity of collective resources they as a team have and use those resources in order to best the other team and exploit their scarcity. There is no common resource they are fighting for, but there is competition. In the long term, however, they are both fighting for the shared resource of Gladiator Points towards their title. Only one team can get the points. Thus, with PvP, we have competition using and because of scarcity.
If you really want to play what you described in your "Constructive" paragraph, I suggest you play Garry's Mod. I'm not saying that with any negative assertions; Garry's Mod is a great sandbox "game," and though you can destroy other peoples' projects, the ability to create anything at will renders scarcity a non-issue. You can feel free to create what you want. However, if you're like me, you find scarcity and competition makes things much more interesting. Scarcity forces you to make choices, abundance does not. MS Paint is not making me do anything, there aren't any goals because there is no scarcity.
I suggest you watch the Zero Punctuation review of Minecraft, you might find it interesting.
It's been announced that the game will be split into two servers: One called War, and the other called Peace.
The Peace server will still have PVP, but with protected areas (good for construction), while war will be unprotected (destruction).
Does this answer your questions?
I'd say your faith in people could use some help :P.
Abundant abundance is as easy as changing the respawn rate of resources.
Enough freedom to move is as easy as creating a game world that's slightly bigger then the server cap.
Ownership was only invented in the very latest stages of human history when taking all of it into account. Most of the hunter-gatherer and agricultural people had very little concept of ownership. They 'owned' their little house/hut and some basic tools but beyond that they didn't 'own' much more. And even that sense of ownership was much more liberal and open for sharing then what we currently have. Granted the culture we live in is way past that, but we're talking about a game here. A role-playing game.
I'm fairly certain that if you create a game that has the vastness and abundance the earth had back in those times you'll see players focussing on construction, not destruction. It wouldn't be a game for everyone, if you're very competitive you probably won't enjoy it as much as say EVE. But I think it would be a great game nonetheless, albeit probably a niche game.
I'm not saying there won't be war. I'm saying war will be there because players want it to, not because they need to. Instead of war about territory you'll have war about territory with great views. Early humanity didn't know war at all, at most there were minor fights ( I imagine one tribe stealing a wife from another tribe wouldn't go over too well. ) but nothing with the scale of war.
Our current world is one based on scarcity, competition and capitalism. And in real life that serves it's use ( although even that can be debated, but that's another story. ) In games however we can create whatever we want. I believe that if you create a game world where the player is the limit instead of the game world that you'd get an entirely new but still enjoyable sandbox experience.
Instead of being limit being space and resources why not make the limit the player himself. Say a construction job takes 2 hours ( could continue when not playing. ) and built constructions need maintenance so that players can't build endlessly but instead need to maintain their constructions. Make the player require food, water etc. so that survival itself becomes a challenge. Create a truly hostile environment where monsters aren't meant to be grinded but are meant to grind you.
A reversal of roles so to speak. Instead of hostile players living in a game world of 'friendly' enemies that drop as soon as you glance at them and give you their stuff I'd like a game where you have a community of friendly players in a very hostile environment that slowly tries to destroy anything you create.
In a sense a more realistic game based on early human history. A game where baboons, lions, rhinos etc can literally rip a human to shreds if they're not carefull instead of a game where they're either meant to be grinded down as quests dictate or killed at your leisure for the crafting materials they posses so that you can then get to the real business of killing other players and taking their stuff.
We are the bunny.
Resistance is futile.
''/\/\'''''/\/\''''''/\/\
( o.o) ( o.o) ( o.o)
(")("),,(")("),(")(")
There will be only one game server for now; another is for trial users so they won't interfere with the real players.
When you first get into the game RUN!
Don't run towards a campfire; Don't spend any time looking in your bags or anything else.
Hmm.. basically you're talking about a PvE centered sandbox game. ("community of friendly players in a very hostile environment") And I must say I pretty much agree with you. I, for one, would like to see a PvE-centered sandbox game which nevertheless features PvP as well - but not as the centerpoint.
Imo, we've had quite enough of PvP-centered sandbox games... Darkfall for example is a PvP-centered game which features some PvE and crafting but it is all in function of PvP. A game that is PvE-centered sandbox but which features crafting and PvP would be a breath of fresh air..
The concept would be as follows - there is a PvE threat or PvE goals for players and player groups. Various players and groups are attempting to achieve PvE goals for which they need resources which are limited... and that's where PvP and crafting come in.
As you can see this is the opposite from, say, Darkfall concept where you have PvP domination as the goal with PvE and crafting supporting this.
If you look at Xsyon's frontpage and look at the description of the game ("mission statement" I'd call it) you'll notice this paragraph: "The new world hangs in a moment of uncertainty. Though the rift in reality has called forth many benevolent gods and creatures, this truly is the time of the Apocalypse. The seven seals are about to be broken. The Four Horsemen loom over the land awaiting their chance to spread destruction and chaos. Devils and angels vie for control of their earthly battlefield."
Imo this puts Xsyon squarely in the "PvE-centered sandbox" category and I like that a lot. I imagine that during and after the prelude we'll see new creatures invading the world and threatening the players.. maybe we'll even see some long-term PvE and crafting goals appear? I would certainly prefer this to what the vocal minority of PvP-buffs are crying for without any regard to consequences and that is putting Xsyon into the PvP-centered category. Imo that would severely reduce the depth of the game and ultimately hurt PvP itself by making it a shallow activity devoid of any higher purpose or context (a la Darkfall - such a shame about that game
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Why run? Is it that bad already that people are camping spawn points and killing noobs?
I review lots of indie games and MMORPGs
Exactly what I mean, thank you. If this is true then I'll definitely be purchasing Xsyon. Though I do hope resources will not be that limited in order to prevent situations where a select group of tribes own all the resources and the only way to actually get to participate in the PvE goals is to first go through the PvP domination for the resources part of the game.
I'd prefer PvP more in a raider functionality. If you need a tent you can either go out and craft one or you can go out and kill somebody and steal theirs. That player then has the option to either craft a new one ( from the resources he doesn't have to fight over. ) or go out himself and steal as well.
In EVE/DF before you can build something more often then not you'll have to kick somebody else out first. So the progression is: 1. Find spot. 2. Fight over spot. 3. Build at spot. 4. Defend spot. You have no choice but to fight for it. Because after the initial settlement there's no spots that don't already have somebody there ( all of EVE 0.0 is occupied and all DF player cities are taken. )
I'd prefer a game where you have 2 progressions:
- 1. Find empty spot. 2. Build at the spot and rebuild any losses. 3. Move to a new spot and rebuild if under attack.
- 1. Find occupied spot and conquer it. 2. Steal products and place them. 3. Defend the spot if under attack.
And ofcourse you can mix and match them as you will. You could take an occupied spot but then build the structures yourself and then move on if under attack. Or find an empty spot and start raiding from there to build it up but disappear again when somebody finds you.
We are the bunny.
Resistance is futile.
''/\/\'''''/\/\''''''/\/\
( o.o) ( o.o) ( o.o)
(")("),,(")("),(")(")
The real answer to the OP is that no one knows yet. We don't know that what will happen by the time when junk piles will deplete, will mining be implemented by then, or new area opened with huge amount of resources. One thing is sure as it has been announced, tribal wars will be optional. If a player wish to stay safe no one will be able to touch his original territory and destroy anything there. Every tribe can claim additional resource areas and these areas will be up for contest.
No. Spawning areas will be safe zones after launch but its not working now. PvP will be turned off for 2 days (launch day and the next one) to help players to settle down in peace.
So basically if I were to login right now, I would get repeatedly ganked by an angry mob? should I just wait till 15th then..?
I review lots of indie games and MMORPGs
If you are going to get the game anyway, you might as well get it now.
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"Chemistry: 'We do stuff in lab that would be a felony in your garage.'"
The most awesomest after school special T-shirt:
Front: UNO Chemistry Club
Back: /\OH --> Bad Decisions
Not really.. Everybody in game knows that we're not playing "for keeps" so it's a pretty laid back atmosphere right now. A few dorks aside, if you get ganked by someone that's probably because he's trying out PvP knowing that things will get serious later on. My neighbours gank me ocassionally while I'm not watching, we have a laugh ("lol I caught you there with pants down!") and part amicably (usually after some friendly trading).
I imagine you'll have much "serious" albiet rarer PvP later on when the game goes truly live... and even then it is much better survival tactics to make friends with your neighbours than just rob and annoy them. While you might feel all cool you stole my chisel I'll probably never want to trade with you again - that toolcrafter that you just stole a few trinkets off might be just the guy who can make that tool you desperately need...
From what I've seeing of the game I imagine we'll have plenty of wars later on but relatively few murders (aka "ganks") except in case of raids or prowling bandits.
Having just joined the game in recent weeks, it seems to be going from construction to destruction, and at a rapid pace.
With a features list that barely describes any PvP at all, and no sieging to speak of, you wouldn't know it by reading the forums that seem be dominated by PvP threads. Added to that is, anytime someone speaks out against pvp, they are typically bombarded with carebear jpegs, and insults.
Look, don't get me wrong, this game needs pvp, and I enjoy pvp a lot. But as the anti-Rift folks are saying... If i wanted to play Darkfall, I would be playing Darkfall....
Darkfall is a terrible PvP-game. The player base has so little impact on the game world. I'd rather see this game have Eve's PvP-rule. At least in Eve there's meaningful construction and the destruction just fuels more construction.
--------
"Chemistry: 'We do stuff in lab that would be a felony in your garage.'"
The most awesomest after school special T-shirt:
Front: UNO Chemistry Club
Back: /\OH --> Bad Decisions
I certainly agree. I think perhaps from reading the features list, and the developers old alignment post, to now seeing what the message boards have turned in to, I sometimes wonder i purchased the same/right game....
Time will tell...
With the last Update post the devs clearly stated that there will be 1 server, and this server will have the 'Peace' ruleset, as in constant safe zones and optional tribewar-conquering system. The PvP crowd expected something else so they were trying to change the game thats why those PvP threads flooded the forum, but after the last update and the more srict from rules these threads are dieing.