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Did Blizzard stagnate innovation?
darker70
Member UncommonPosts: 804
Well everbody who has a long Relationship with MO's Know's WOW plagarised many games before it's conception,no doubt Blizzard rideing on their World of Warcraft franchise took DAOC/AC2/Horizons as their template and just embedded their franchise into the same basic gameplay and visual style.
So after a shaky start their game gets bigger and bigger mainly due to it's very basic gameplay mechanics just jump in do a quest or launch a raid maybe some crafting then the PvP element if that floats your boat,my experience is limited but what i gathered it was so cookie cutter in contrast look at Horizons if this launched today their would be cries of WOW clone!!, from the community but as we now know the game was/is very deep and still holds a good population after all these years and name and dev changes and by no means is cookie cutter.
But as we know game companies can not survive on if u like a niche fanbase they need to see a potential return and like SOE could see that this type of easy access get yer thrills game play was where the money was at, would SOE have killed SWG if WOW had not waved dollar signs in front of the SOE chairman screaming look at me clone me !!,lose most of your community and destroy what was in turn a flawed masterpiece and who know's could have become in time the MO that many are still yearning for to this day.
So it occurs to me after the success of WOW we hit a hiatus by many companies that this was the way to go to make a fast dollar and get a community or customers splashing out subs for the game.Now we also have the F2P Clones that popped up and some would say cloned The style of WOW or many games before it this basically killed innovation and only a few F2P truely delivered something different Uncharted Waters is a good example as it stuck with gameplay from the good old Amiga days.
So fast forward a bit and now everybody and his dog are turning their Mo's F2P and makeing a success,but some swim against the tide and a P2P game has to stand out from the crowd as we live in dark economic times so we gotta be more choosy with our subs. This also brings a sea change i'll cite RIFT at last i thought a MO that deserves AAA status but alas the only AAA thing about it was it's spit and polish after the 5th beta i was like where is the innovation even the premise of dynamic Rifts was miss leading as they follow a set path and spawned on a set timer,im not saying i dislike Rift just jaded that another company went the if u like updated safe WOW route.
So i hope 2011 is the year to change the face of MO's with such goodies as GW2 true dynamic content,story based and speech driven quests in SWTOR,Real world enviroments no levels and skill based progression in TSW and many more such as WOD,Copernicus,Stellar dawn etc and hopefully the progression of niche games like Xyson,Mortal Online,Dawntide and hopefully Blizzard can pull of something with Titan and show they can do original after all.
Comments
remember when somebody created a ww2 themed action game.
everyone created their own as well... in the end they all looked extremely simillar.
blizzard just made the genre popular. everything else happened on its own.
if other developers thought that they need to make the same thing as blizzard did... then its THEIR problem not blizzards tbh.
Not only did they stagnate innovation, but I have it from a trusted source that they famekd the moon landing, are paying for an apartment for Jimmy Hoffa and were behind the Lindburgh baby kidnapping...DASTARDLEY!
That Guild Wars 2 login screen knocked up my wife. Must be the second coming!
Just to let you know that some of us have never played WoW, i dont play Rift too. i might have but with so many people saying it was like Wow i just couldnt see me enjoying easy gameplay.
Companys will always try to make more money, if that means releasing crap games or as you stated converting games to cater for the Pawn All crowd then they will as long as they make money.
Mmo's have changed, Companys use the mmo tag to sell games now even when it is clear they are not mmo's, i wont buy into this crap selling of games anymore, i would rather play something as else, like Shogun2.
Still lets see what this year brings, fingers crossed it will be a good year for mmorpg.
It was the community that stagnated innovation. If the player base did not get as big as it did then you would not have seen so many companies try to copy the wow model.
Velika: City of Wheels: Among the mortal races, the humans were the only one that never built cities or great empires; a curse laid upon them by their creator, Gidd, forced them to wander as nomads for twenty centuries...
In my opinion, the greatest threat to innovation is corporate greed. Look at all of the highly promising titles that have been torn out of developers wombs and thrust into the harsh light of day before they were fully formed. Game developers WANT to make fun, innovative games. They are not making games cause they couldn't land a job writing database code or working on spreadsheets full time. They are making games because they are gamers and love the hobby. Pick virtually any game released in the last 2 years and I can pinpoint the stink of corporate medelling that hurt it moreso than just poor design or a lack of innovation.
Warhammer fanatic since '85.
Spec'ing properly is a gateway drug.
12 Million People have been meter spammed in heroics.
You can and should expect a compliations of game based on the same historical fact to be strikingly similar.
And then you have the genre we're playing in... Fantasy... almost anything the mind can imagine. Unfortunately the mind can imagine very littlle.
Spec'ing properly is a gateway drug.
12 Million People have been meter spammed in heroics.
I gotta say as well. they never did anything they just made Wow what it is. it's the other game companys that have let the market and genre stagnate trying to build a better Wow clone. All you have to do is look at all the fail games that never dared break from the mold out of fear of loosing subs from Wow. They all want some of the market share and lucky for blizz they all folowed blizzs design. Thats why TOR and GW2 will be awesome huge IP's. but at the end of the day they will still remain firmly planted in the blizzard framework of game design.
Titan will rape them both in 2 years so whats it matter i say. Enjoy your game and have fun.
IMO Vanguard: Saga of Heroes could've been a very successfull title i prefered it over WoW to be honest however due to an early launch (as stated formerly Corporate greed) it came out all buggy and boy did that puppy crash... a lot ... however it is one of the few MMOs in which i have ever enjoyed crafting as much as i did then
So...uh yeah...i guess that WAS the bomb trigger o.O hehe oops :$
money stagnates innovation
it promotes innovation as well
no money = no innovation comes realised, which is pretty much no innovation
How much WoW could a WoWhater hate, if a WoWhater could hate WoW?
As much WoW as a WoWhater would, if a WoWhater could hate WoW.
Some thoughts:
WOW substantially increased the number of companies making MMORPGs.
Companies who made bad games would've made bad games with or without WOW.
Blizzard's past philosophy has been to build upon existing knowledge. Take identify what works and implement a polished game using that knowledge. They don't create genres but they advance them.
On top of this, Blizzard is better than anyone else on the market at pursuing the simplest possible implementation of deep gameplay mechanics. And while they don't adhere to this design fundamental 100% of the time, they don't need to (it's like a race: you only have to be faster than the other guys...and other companies really struggle to keep their designs elegantly simple while still being deep and interesting.)
If creating the best game in the MMORPG genre is stagnation, bring me more stagnation! (Emphasis on 'game', since they created a product which was genuinely entertaining -- not a world simulation.)
Point #2 is perhaps most important (hence the highlighting.)
Points 3 and 4 are mainly an admiration of how Blizzard manages to stick it out for good game design, and really ship amazingly polished products.
"What is truly revealing is his implication that believing something to be true is the same as it being true. [continue]" -John Oliver
Money is the problem here, but not is a clear cut sort of way. The problem is that many developers, even seasoned one's like SOE look at WoW and think Blizzard planted a money tree - this ignores the fact that blizzard did a few things right and got very lucky with their timing.
WoW didn't cause the lack of innovation we've seen, WoW simply ushered in an era where developers sought some sort of mythical alchemy in hopes of recreating what WoW did, rather than creating something that people actually wanted to play.
Wow just made too many developers believe in some sort of MMO holy grail or El Dorado. Only a hand full of developers/[ublishers seem to realize that they shouldn't be shooting for millions of subs, but 250-500K subs. Sadly fewer still get hired or get to make the games they want, because of those very realistic ideas.
I would say that players are most probably the most prolific cause. With pretty much every MMO that we have seen over the past six years we see a plethora of people whining about grind and how long it takes to anything from crafting, levelling, killing mobs, travelling etc., so developers have done their best to 'increase' the fun-factor by making just about all aspects of MMO game play accessible to anyone and everyone; even the ultra-casual with only half an hour to play here and there.
It is hard to be innovative in the face of the ranting masses that will shout down any and every change to the 'established' order of things, especially if there is any perception that anything (like levelling etc.) is taking longer than it takes in other games. We have people yelling for 'innovation' that aren't prepared to accept change. Especially if any changes to game play has even the smallest amount of impact on them and their play habits. New MMOs have to bend to the whims of the unwashed masses or be broken by them by the loss of their subscription dollars.
Our unwillingness to change how we want to play MMOs over a developers desired design for a game is most probably the biggest thing holding things back. I am sure that most developers would love to create a game that has longevity; where people are playing for years and progressing through the game and enjoying it at a measured pace. The reality of what we have are games that are being torn through in a matter of days, people screaming if it takes long than that to reach the level cap, and then screaming more because they have nothing to do. And it isn't going to change any time soon.
It is not really Blizzards fault, or at least not just their fault.
Since Meridian 59 have all newer games more or less ripped older ones off. There are a few exceptions like UO and Eve but generally do most devs copy and paste. Blaming one game for the fact that almost all of them are the same isn't fair.
It is kinda sad because if more studios tried something different it would probably mean better games for us.
I agree with alot of the points that you made, but blizzard is not to blame. Player's, Dev's,Companies and lets throw in gold farmers are all to blame.
Player's
You see it all the time with new games that are launched the player community is like a kid on christmas waiting to open his gifts. Only problem is that the games are rarely if ever near being a finished product. Example of this i will use RIFT those who grinded to 50 fast as they could to get to the end game experience are complaining about, lack of balance in pvp, lack of content for raids/instances dont get me wrong there are many other problems with RIFT. You have to give the game more then 30 days to see what it turns into. That is the major problem with players they want it all and they want it now. Its also a two way street though how much time is to much time to give a game?
Dev's
Dev's are the backbone of a game pre launch and during the first 1-2 months. There idea's,blood, sweat and tears that make the game what it is. These guys and girls have to juggle the opinions of each other,players and even company thats backing the game. Sometimes they drop the ball and sometimes they are all over it. Response time and community involvement seem to be two things that dev's are judged on after a game launchs. My example of a good dev team is going to have to be WOW, they dont always get it right but these guys are for the most part on top of their shit. A bad dev team i would have to go with SWG around the end of CU era begining of the NGE (SWG has had alot of changes and turn over in the dev team), looking past the flaws of the game and controversy that the game has had the Dev team was horrible in this era.
Company
The money behind the game, Money is a the reason P2P games are made. Imagine Vanguard SoH with more money and more time at launch. The company did not have either and SOE was brought in and things went down hill. Also advertising finding the players that fit the game that they are putting out. I will go back to RIFT as good and bad examples. They have advertising all over the web in ads and word of mouth they got people talking point blank. The bad, maybe just maybe this going up against WOW in their advertisements is not a good idea. Right now the banner on this website reads "Rift is a finely crafted dagger in the chest of WOW" though they did not come up with that line maybe its being pushed to hard. I think of the NY Jets players and coaching staff saying last preseason that they were going to the super bowl and how awesome the team was. Some people took it as aggroance and laughed at them others took it swagger and jumped on the band wagon.
Gold Famers
because they screw up in game economys and hack our accounts!
How has this all in turn slowed down new idea's and advancement in mmo's. Not many new games launch with something omfg amazing differences from others. The idea's are barrowed from other games and slaped together to make a jigsaw of other games with a coat of paint on it. Its those games that do something new that break the ice and let another game build off it. Most of the time these games dont survive or go F2P. You need to think of New MMO's as a Prototype for the next until one comes along that is A) the next WOW or
A niche game. All and all the point is keeping a new game up and running well is where ideas get polished and new ones are formed.
a few examples from last few years
Public Quest Adv Crafting (SWG,Vanguard)
Raids Reforging/gear agumentation
RvR Attack Chains/Combo attacks
Sandbox MMO's Ground/Space/Ocean combat enviroments
FPS/MMO Hybrid Skill Tree's/Advancement Points
I wouldnt say bilzz is at fault here. It's the corporate execs who decides how development goes. It's the same in almost every other form of entertainment. It's because they follow where the money is. WoW makes money, why not emulate it? I blame them, greedy corp execs.
WOW no pun intended !!
Glad to see my post generating a great debate oooh 100th post !!
If a company makes a "WoW clone" today, they wouldn't have made an innovative game if WoW had never existed. They'd just try to mostly copy some other game if WoW didn't exist.
If you mean, made it so you didn't need to live in your mothers basement to see endgame content...
quality and non-buggy sh!ty release...(notice Rift is doing good too, and it has a non-sh!ty release for the most part. Unlike Vanguard LOL...or AoC. Two examples out of many. People want quality releases since WoW))
FUN (though this is debatable, as some people enjoy standing in one spot and killing 1000 monsters over and over for no apparent reason except for EXP or items, while never moving from that one spot. Quests in WoW are "grindy", but at least it masks the grind)...Guild Wars has the best quests though, at least for it's time (my opinion).,..and GW2 dynamic events will take it to a whole new level. But still, better then standing in one spot and doing nothing else or grinding on just one or two or three types of mobs. Plus, it gives a reason why I'm killing that mob, even if I do skip most of the quest text. The quest texts in WoW are kinda lame, but meh.
then great, I'm glad for WoW. Especially since I can see endgame content without needing to sacrifice my life to it. Since games aren't life, they are entertainment.
Having said that
Battlegrounds and Arenas...WORST FEATURE EVER...especially Arenas...and definitely lame ass battlegrounds. SWTOR is having this, therefore I'm avoiding that game with its lame ass, stupid "feature". Battlegrounds and Arenas are stupid...I'm playing an MMO, not counterstrike or call of duty.
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The problem is never the idea.
Is how to make the idea work.
It's only because WoW blew up the way it did that everyone started trying to copy it so closely. If it maintained modestly successful numbers, on par with EQ1 or even upwards of a million, I don't think we'd have seen everyone and their grandmother trying to make a "me too" clone of it.
Yes, MMOs before WoW also borrowed bits and pieces from each other - but they were very much their own game, and you would not play any of them and get the feeling that they were just like the others.
DAoC does not feel anything like EQ which does not feel anything like Anarchy Online which does not feel anything like Asheron's Call which does not feel anything like Ultima Online which does not feel anything like Lineage 2 which does not feel anything like FFXI which did not feel anything like SWG which felt nothing like Eve... and so on and so forth. You could swap around those games in any order you like and the outcome is the same. Each game brought something of its own to the table, even while implementing similar systems.
Comparing older MMOs to each other would be like comparing Sonic the Hedghog to Super Mario Brothers. They're both platformers, they both involve running around, jumping on platforms, defeating enemies and picking up items/powerups. However, that's where their similarities end... beyond that, their look/style, gameplay, pacing and other factors are very much different. You wouldn't play Sonic thinking "man this is just like Mario", and vice versa.
That's the same feeling as playing the older, pre-WoW MMOs gave. Yes, they shared certain gameplay elements common to MMOs, but they did not feel like near-copies of each other.
Back then, however, the MMO genre had not yet "proven itself" to big name developers. Even with EQ1's wild success... the genre was still not really given that much attention. Thus, developers were given more space to create truly unique experiences.
Enter World of Warcraft, which blew the doors open on the MMO genre and suddenly made it available to "everyone". It became a household name. I've met plenty of people - gamers even - who had no idea what even Everquest 1 was. I don't think I know a single person these days, even non-gamers, who dont' know what World of Warcraft is. It's that pervasive.
The result is, just like anything else that becomes hugely popular, suddenly companies became interested. They saw Blizzard making a ton of money and they wanted a piece of it. So, how do they get a piece of it? By trying to cop the same formula Blizzard used to make WoW.
Thus, more and more MMOs started hitting the scene that felt strangely similar to WoW. Not only in terms of basic gameplay, but in terms of their look/feel, graphic style, questing style, pacing, UI style, etc.
THese days I can log into Rift and feel like I'm playing another spin on the WoW formula. I play LoTRO and feel like it's another spin on the WoW formula. Allods, Runes of Magic, Alganon, Warhammer... and on and on... Each has its own unique element, but by and large, I get the feeling that "I've played this game before" when I play any of them.
I never got that feeling when playing any of the 1st and 2nd gen MMOs to come out before WoW did. Every one of them brought a unique experience with it. Each was designed to be its own unique game with its own unique style and presentation.
If any one of those MMOs that I listed above saw even nearly the success WoW did, believe it, we'd be calling them "DAoC clones" or "FFXI clones" or "AO clones"...
Let's look outside the MMO genre...
How about the RTS-type Facebook games, of which there's seemingly a never ending list of. Why clone *that* specific type of game over and over? Because who ever made it first was extremely successful, so people are trying to ride their coat-tails. Even Richard Garriot decided to hop on the bandwagon to make yet another version of one with the Ultima name on it.
How about Farmville? Farmville was so successful that everyone and their grandmother tried making a clone of that game.
It's just the way big business works. There are very few true innovators out there. Most of them just sit around letting someone else take the risks and tread the new ground... and then they hop on the bandwagon and milk it for all its worth.
That's what stagnates any type of entertainment. That's what's stagnating the industry. That's why we aren't seeing more unique and different games coming from big-name developers. Because they aren't proven to make $$$ and so, are "too risky".
Personally... I wish WoW would have met with success enough to keep going and growing, but not so much that it would have brought the change to the genre that it did. I kinda liked having a genre where each MMO had its own identity and flavor and wasn't just trying to ride the coat-tails of the 800lb gorilla. Even if I didn't like most of them personally, I always felt the sheer variety available was always good for the genre.
and the cash shop selling asphalt..." - Mimzel on F2P/Cash Shops
This is a great post. I think its time for MMO developers to get a clue and realize that they can't keep taking the lazy route to game making. Its time to see innovative games such as GW2 and TOR crush these lazy bastards.
Blizzard was never innovative. They were just great at copying whatever was great out there. So, things look good in 2011. Blizzard will have plenty of material to copy from SW:TOR, GW2, Rift and possibly others coming out. In fact, I could bet that they have already started doing just that and we'll see the resutls soon enough.
Some of this is right some of it is wrong.
Blizzard took most of it's ideas from EQ1 not DAOC or any other mmo of that time,it took ideas from the leading MMO of that time which was EQ1. They even hire two chaps from one of the leading EQ1 guilds of the day to bring ideas from EQ1 and improve them.