LOTRO and AoC can be considered niche, but not as niche as Eve IMO. That is to say there are levels of "niche-ness". I think a niche game is created by the IP or the gameplay(style) or both. Where gameplay(style) has a greater tendency to create a niche game than an IP.
I say this because if you play WoW or Everquest then you are more likely to get along with, and play, AoC and LOTRO, even if you may be indifferent to the IP. There will be a few who dislike a game simply because of the IP or like it simply because of the IP and this creates the niche game in these cases.
The opposite to niche is "main stream" which of course WoW is and Everquest was before it(still is). Eve is certainly not mainstream and not due to its IP(which is its own) but due to its setting(Sci-Fi which is not as popular as Fantasy ) and of course its gameplay style and sandbox nature.
It is worht saying that Mortal Online could be become a niche fantasy based game, as is Darkfall more so than Lotro and Aoc due to their gameplay styles.
These are my own thoughts on this are of course not fact.
You are talking about the genres, fantasy and sci-fi. I did not ask about that as we already know fantasy is prevalent and mainstream in MMOs. I asked about the individual games. Do you feel AoC and LOTRO are niche games?
" LOTRO and AoC can be considered niche" is the first line i wrote. So yes they are niche games.
Why do you ask?
Oh, and not all fantasy is mainstream as i pointed out, MO and Drakfall are certainly not mainstream.
Maybe I'm misunderstanding your use of the word niche. The impression that I got from the statement "Eve is niche, always has been always will be," was that you were using niche to mean having limited appeal. This seemed reinforced by the statement "LOTRO and AoC can be considered niche, but not as niche as Eve IMO," but it seems now you are just using it in the general sense of a distinct segment.
But to answer your question, the reason I asked is because the three games all have relatively similar subscriber numbers, so I was curious as to your definition of niche for a particular game as opposed to genre.
Niche games are caused by limited appeal(which caters to a very specific taste), whether that be due to the IP or gameplay or both. Or even perhaps due to the fast number of titles that are available, as we see in the fantasy genre, then it comes down to the most appealing ones and all others become niche.
Another thing to consider is was a particular game designed to be niche or mainstream, AoC was I believe designed to be main stream, but due to various failing it ended up as a niche game or a failed game with limited appeal lol. Eve was designed to be niche from the get go.
I also think niche games transcend genres(settings- scifi/fantasy), so genres have no bearing on whether a game becomes niche or not, to a point. Of course sci-fi games are not as popular as fantasy games, but then there are so few to choose from. If however you combine a popular IP with familiar gameplay you could end up with a mainstream sci fi title, this almost happened with SWG and could happen with SWTO, let's wait and see!
It's certainly not washed up, but I've moved on. I enjoy flying my ship in games, not just orbit, approach, etc. manual flying via right-clicking the area you want to go to is there too, but its not the same as actually flying your ship like you can in BP and BSG(both of which I've tried as well). I played EVE for years and had a good time, but, I like direct control, and eve can't offer that. I had more fun in a BSG fleet battle yesterday than in any EVE fleet battle I've ever been in (and I've been in plenty).
There isn't a "right" or "wrong" way to play, if you want to use a screwdriver to put nails into wood, have at it, simply don't complain when the guy next to you with the hammer is doing it much better and easier. - Allein "Graphics are often supplied by Engines that (some) MMORPG's are built in" - Spuffyre
I like how people are calling EvE a "niche" game. over 330,000 active players is nothing to shake a stick at, if we rewind pre-wow it would be the first or second biggest game on the market, and now its easily in the top 5, niche? I think not.
I like how people are calling EvE a "niche" game. over 330,000 active players is nothing to shake a stick at, if we rewind pre-wow it would be the first or second biggest game on the market, and now its easily in the top 5, niche? I think not.
In this day and age, any game that requires more than 6 brain cells to play is a niche game.
There are certain queer times and occasions in this strange mixed affair we call life when a man takes this whole universe for a vast practical joke, though the wit thereof he but dimly discerns, and more than suspects that the joke is at nobody's expense but his own. -- Herman Melville
I like how people are calling EvE a "niche" game. over 330,000 active players is nothing to shake a stick at, if we rewind pre-wow it would be the first or second biggest game on the market, and now its easily in the top 5, niche? I think not.
In this day and age, any game that requires more than 6 brain cells to play is a niche game.
I love EVE but lets not get carried away! 330k active subs does not equal 330k unique players! I know several people with three or more accounts and almost everyone has two...
If GM had kept up with technology like the computer industry has, we would all be driving $25 cars that got 1000 MPG - Bill Gates
Yeah EVE Online is well past it's prime and is declining fast. I would give it another month at best before CCP goes bankrupt and closes the servers...
If you couldn't tell, the above sentence is total and complete sarcasm. I didn't think this thread deserved anything less.
------------------------- "Searchers after horror haunt strange, far places..." ~ H.P.Lovecraft, "From Beyond"
I love EVE but lets not get carried away! 330k active subs does not equal 330k unique players! I know several people with three or more accounts and almost everyone has two...
Complete exaggeration. Yes, I know of multiple people with several accounts. However, saying 'almost everyone has two' is a bold faced lie. I dont, and MANY people don't feel the need to have more than one account. I would wager that MOST people in this game, do NOT have more than one account.
Actually I don't like Eve because it takes so long to really be competitive...
One guy was talking about "Well only after 2 yrs I'm already killing people" yippie.... open world ffa pvp is dandy if you're at the top... if you're at the bottom you feel like you got dead space (no pun I swear) in between starting and having fun.
I've given Eve a try a few times and every time I love the graphics, but hate the combat (omg is it boring) and how the skill system is time based.
and OMG i hate how the missions become impossible to solo (if I'm in a huge spaceship I want to solo... not because of WoW I want to solo because of Star Trek.. geez blame the right IP)
I love EVE but lets not get carried away! 330k active subs does not equal 330k unique players! I know several people with three or more accounts and almost everyone has two...
What difference does it make? All games have people with multiple accounts. Remember this guy...
It seems only with Eve do people bring up this fact.
There are certain queer times and occasions in this strange mixed affair we call life when a man takes this whole universe for a vast practical joke, though the wit thereof he but dimly discerns, and more than suspects that the joke is at nobody's expense but his own. -- Herman Melville
Actually I don't like Eve because it takes so long to really be competitive...
One guy was talking about "Well only after 2 yrs I'm already killing people" yippie.... open world ffa pvp is dandy if you're at the top... if you're at the bottom you feel like you got dead space (no pun I swear) in between starting and having fun.
I've given Eve a try a few times and every time I love the graphics, but hate the combat (omg is it boring) and how the skill system is time based.
and OMG i hate how the missions become impossible to solo (if I'm in a huge spaceship I want to solo... not because of WoW I want to solo because of Star Trek.. geez blame the right IP)
I won't touch your first assertion about how long it takes to become competitive because that has been beaten into the ground here many times.
Unless you were running level 5 missions you shouldn't of had any trouble solo. Perhaps you were using the wrong ship for the job or not fitting it correctly. The difficult part of Eve is not the PvE anyway.
There are certain queer times and occasions in this strange mixed affair we call life when a man takes this whole universe for a vast practical joke, though the wit thereof he but dimly discerns, and more than suspects that the joke is at nobody's expense but his own. -- Herman Melville
I love EVE but lets not get carried away! 330k active subs does not equal 330k unique players! I know several people with three or more accounts and almost everyone has two...
I am curious how the leap was made from:
"I know several people..."
to
"...almost everyone has two".
Unless a person actually knows "almost everyone" playing EvE... that seems like an exageration. Just saying.
Among the circles I run in the general agreement is that it is. I'm not going to argue the worth of investing so much EVE money on a console FPS that no one will play half a year later because of the new shiny (CoD 5 or what have you). The general feeling I'm getting from the people I play with, the CSM, and the forums, is that if you plan on being a carebear that you shouldn't bother with EVE.
The CSM Agenda is focusing on fixes that benefit mostly nullsec and wormhole players (like sovereignty improvements and fleet battle lag/time dialation). If you listen to their recent fireside chat it becomes clear that both the CCP mentality and theirs is focused on PVP (every single CSM Member is in an Alliance) and so the PVPers future seems bright. For them, EVE is most definitely not washed up.
But when you start talking about the High Sec-PVE Gameplay a different story emerges. HighSec Players, which make up 79% of the playerbase (according to QEN q4 2010) have to settle for a few quality of life upgrades and a few quiet nerfs (such as quietly dropping the worth and frequency of implant drops in missions). Now, I could go on about how HighSec modes of play are frustrating and about how certain things CCP has done are a slap in the face to HighSec Players but I will just sum it up.
I can't think of a single thing CCP has ever done for HighSec Players, where the ulterior motive wasn't to enrage them into going into nullsec. Combine this with the fact that we won't see an expansion dedicated specifically to us for at least two years (alluded to by the CSM and CCP) and it is not surprising to see the general feeling of frustration among a large number of highsec veterans. Many of which are letting all of their secondary accounts lapse. How can they claim their game is a sandbox when they are herding the high sec players by force? If these people have been playing solidly in HighSec for upwards of 8 years, they will quit before you force them into nullsec.
Which seems to be what is happening. Subscriber numbers have been flat for the last 3 quarters (QEN q4 2010 again) and there are predictions that the summer unsubbing season will lead to the first subscriber decline since the game came out 8 years ago.
So is the game washed up? if you ask PVE'ers, High Sec Veterans, or Industrialists the answer is Yes.
Among the circles I run in the general agreement is that it is. I'm not going to argue the worth of investing so much EVE money on a console FPS that no one will play half a year later because of the new shiny (CoD 5 or what have you). The general feeling I'm getting from the people I play with, the CSM, and the forums, is that if you plan on being a carebear that you shouldn't bother with EVE.
The CSM Agenda is focusing on fixes that benefit mostly nullsec and wormhole players (like sovereignty improvements and fleet battle lag/time dialation). If you listen to their recent fireside chat it becomes clear that both the CCP mentality and theirs is focused on PVP (every single CSM Member is in an Alliance) and so the PVPers future seems bright. For them, EVE is most definitely not washed up.
But when you start talking about the High Sec-PVE Gameplay a different story emerges. HighSec Players, which make up 79% of the playerbase (according to QEN q4 2010) have to settle for a few quality of life upgrades and a few quiet nerfs (such as quietly dropping the worth and frequency of implant drops in missions). Now, I could go on about how HighSec modes of play are frustrating and about how certain things CCP has done are a slap in the face to HighSec Players but I will just sum it up.
I can't think of a single thing CCP has ever done for HighSec Players, where the ulterior motive wasn't to enrage them into going into nullsec. Combine this with the fact that we won't see an expansion dedicated specifically to us for at least two years (alluded to by the CSM and CCP) and it is not surprising to see the general feeling of frustration among a large number of highsec veterans. Many of which are letting all of their secondary accounts lapse. How can they claim their game is a sandbox when they are herding the high sec players by force? If these people have been playing solidly in HighSec for upwards of 8 years, they will quit before you force them into nullsec.
Which seems to be what is happening. Subscriber numbers have been flat for the last 3 quarters (QEN q4 2010 again) and there are predictions that the summer unsubbing season will lead to the first subscriber decline since the game came out 8 years ago.
So is the game washed up? if you ask PVE'ers, High Sec Veterans, or Industrialists the answer is Yes.
Um, but this has pretty much always been true (you said it yourself). So your thesis is "EVE has stayed true to it's original theme therefore it's washed up"?
And who's being "herded by force"? Are the GMs teleporting people out of hi-sec? Are pilots in CNRs being forced into Rancer at the point of a CONCORD fleet? Or are you making hysterical hyperbole?
Actually I don't like Eve because it takes so long to really be competitive...
One guy was talking about "Well only after 2 yrs I'm already killing people" yippie.... open world ffa pvp is dandy if you're at the top... if you're at the bottom you feel like you got dead space (no pun I swear) in between starting and having fun.
I've given Eve a try a few times and every time I love the graphics, but hate the combat (omg is it boring) and how the skill system is time based.
and OMG i hate how the missions become impossible to solo (if I'm in a huge spaceship I want to solo... not because of WoW I want to solo because of Star Trek.. geez blame the right IP)
What missions can't you solo? L1-L4 missions are ridiculously easy to solo. A 1-2 month player in a Drake can solo L4s, never mind someone in a battleship.
...So is the game washed up? if you ask PVE'ers, High Sec Veterans, or Industrialists the answer is Yes.
Um, but this has pretty much always been true (you said it yourself). So your thesis is "EVE has stayed true to it's original theme therefore it's washed up"?
And who's being "herded by force"? Are the GMs teleporting people out of hi-sec? Are pilots in CNRs being forced into Rancer at the point of a CONCORD fleet? Or are you making hysterical hyperbole?
No, the original theme of the game was "Be Anything". In the early years, the game got a lot of its people on the premise that there was a ridiculous amount of occupations you could be.
My point was that in reality, this theme has become "Be what we want you to be or we will frustrate you until you do".
Apart from mentioning Darkfall, the OP didn't mention what his position was on PVP or if he would explore all of his possibilities in EVE. My post was meant to point out that if he would be exploring all of his possibilities, then he would quickly become frustrated from a lot of those possibilities.
As for being herded by force. If a club owner wanted you out of his club, you could be forced out of the club by the security. Or they could turn the music into nails on a chalkboard and boost the price on all the booze a few thousand percent. Either way, you leave the club and they got you to do what they wanted.
I dont think the best is yet to come for EVE online....they are spending countless time and dollars so we can walk around in stations.......I love EVE but i think they are not really listening to players that love and play there game instead they are trying to attract the people who will not be loyal to them anyways and probably leave after a month b/c there are no purple items for them to grind.
Playing: PO, EVE Waiting for: WoD Favourite MMOs: VG, EVE, FE and DDO Any person who expresses rage and loathing for an MMO is preposterous. He or she is like a person who has put on full armor and attacked a hot fudge sundae.
Comments
Niche games are caused by limited appeal(which caters to a very specific taste), whether that be due to the IP or gameplay or both. Or even perhaps due to the fast number of titles that are available, as we see in the fantasy genre, then it comes down to the most appealing ones and all others become niche.
Another thing to consider is was a particular game designed to be niche or mainstream, AoC was I believe designed to be main stream, but due to various failing it ended up as a niche game or a failed game with limited appeal lol. Eve was designed to be niche from the get go.
I also think niche games transcend genres(settings- scifi/fantasy), so genres have no bearing on whether a game becomes niche or not, to a point. Of course sci-fi games are not as popular as fantasy games, but then there are so few to choose from. If however you combine a popular IP with familiar gameplay you could end up with a mainstream sci fi title, this almost happened with SWG and could happen with SWTO, let's wait and see!
It's certainly not washed up, but I've moved on. I enjoy flying my ship in games, not just orbit, approach, etc. manual flying via right-clicking the area you want to go to is there too, but its not the same as actually flying your ship like you can in BP and BSG(both of which I've tried as well). I played EVE for years and had a good time, but, I like direct control, and eve can't offer that. I had more fun in a BSG fleet battle yesterday than in any EVE fleet battle I've ever been in (and I've been in plenty).
Very good point about the Star Wars MMOs!
There isn't a "right" or "wrong" way to play, if you want to use a screwdriver to put nails into wood, have at it, simply don't complain when the guy next to you with the hammer is doing it much better and easier. - Allein
"Graphics are often supplied by Engines that (some) MMORPG's are built in" - Spuffyre
I think EvE is still going strong, and for very good reason - it's a very good, very deep game.
It's not a game everyone will enjoy, but that can be said of every game.
Hell hath no fury like an MMORPG player scorned.
I like how people are calling EvE a "niche" game. over 330,000 active players is nothing to shake a stick at, if we rewind pre-wow it would be the first or second biggest game on the market, and now its easily in the top 5, niche? I think not.
In this day and age, any game that requires more than 6 brain cells to play is a niche game.
There are certain queer times and occasions in this strange mixed affair we call life when a man takes this whole universe for a vast practical joke, though the wit thereof he but dimly discerns, and more than suspects that the joke is at nobody's expense but his own.
-- Herman Melville
Sadly
Give me liberty or give me lasers
I love EVE but lets not get carried away! 330k active subs does not equal 330k unique players! I know several people with three or more accounts and almost everyone has two...
If GM had kept up with technology like the computer industry has, we would all be driving $25 cars that got 1000 MPG - Bill Gates
Yeah EVE Online is well past it's prime and is declining fast. I would give it another month at best before CCP goes bankrupt and closes the servers...
If you couldn't tell, the above sentence is total and complete sarcasm. I didn't think this thread deserved anything less.
-------------------------
"Searchers after horror haunt strange, far places..." ~ H.P.Lovecraft, "From Beyond"
Member Since March 2004
Complete exaggeration. Yes, I know of multiple people with several accounts. However, saying 'almost everyone has two' is a bold faced lie. I dont, and MANY people don't feel the need to have more than one account. I would wager that MOST people in this game, do NOT have more than one account.
Actually I don't like Eve because it takes so long to really be competitive...
One guy was talking about "Well only after 2 yrs I'm already killing people" yippie.... open world ffa pvp is dandy if you're at the top... if you're at the bottom you feel like you got dead space (no pun I swear) in between starting and having fun.
I've given Eve a try a few times and every time I love the graphics, but hate the combat (omg is it boring) and how the skill system is time based.
and OMG i hate how the missions become impossible to solo (if I'm in a huge spaceship I want to solo... not because of WoW I want to solo because of Star Trek.. geez blame the right IP)
What difference does it make? All games have people with multiple accounts. Remember this guy...
http://www.ripten.com/2008/10/10/wow-whore-has-36-accounts-raids-by-himself/
It seems only with Eve do people bring up this fact.
There are certain queer times and occasions in this strange mixed affair we call life when a man takes this whole universe for a vast practical joke, though the wit thereof he but dimly discerns, and more than suspects that the joke is at nobody's expense but his own.
-- Herman Melville
I won't touch your first assertion about how long it takes to become competitive because that has been beaten into the ground here many times.
Unless you were running level 5 missions you shouldn't of had any trouble solo. Perhaps you were using the wrong ship for the job or not fitting it correctly. The difficult part of Eve is not the PvE anyway.
There are certain queer times and occasions in this strange mixed affair we call life when a man takes this whole universe for a vast practical joke, though the wit thereof he but dimly discerns, and more than suspects that the joke is at nobody's expense but his own.
-- Herman Melville
I am curious how the leap was made from:
"I know several people..."
to
"...almost everyone has two".
Unless a person actually knows "almost everyone" playing EvE... that seems like an exageration. Just saying.
Is EVE washed up? That depends.
Among the circles I run in the general agreement is that it is. I'm not going to argue the worth of investing so much EVE money on a console FPS that no one will play half a year later because of the new shiny (CoD 5 or what have you). The general feeling I'm getting from the people I play with, the CSM, and the forums, is that if you plan on being a carebear that you shouldn't bother with EVE.
The CSM Agenda is focusing on fixes that benefit mostly nullsec and wormhole players (like sovereignty improvements and fleet battle lag/time dialation). If you listen to their recent fireside chat it becomes clear that both the CCP mentality and theirs is focused on PVP (every single CSM Member is in an Alliance) and so the PVPers future seems bright. For them, EVE is most definitely not washed up.
But when you start talking about the High Sec-PVE Gameplay a different story emerges. HighSec Players, which make up 79% of the playerbase (according to QEN q4 2010) have to settle for a few quality of life upgrades and a few quiet nerfs (such as quietly dropping the worth and frequency of implant drops in missions). Now, I could go on about how HighSec modes of play are frustrating and about how certain things CCP has done are a slap in the face to HighSec Players but I will just sum it up.
I can't think of a single thing CCP has ever done for HighSec Players, where the ulterior motive wasn't to enrage them into going into nullsec. Combine this with the fact that we won't see an expansion dedicated specifically to us for at least two years (alluded to by the CSM and CCP) and it is not surprising to see the general feeling of frustration among a large number of highsec veterans. Many of which are letting all of their secondary accounts lapse. How can they claim their game is a sandbox when they are herding the high sec players by force? If these people have been playing solidly in HighSec for upwards of 8 years, they will quit before you force them into nullsec.
Which seems to be what is happening. Subscriber numbers have been flat for the last 3 quarters (QEN q4 2010 again) and there are predictions that the summer unsubbing season will lead to the first subscriber decline since the game came out 8 years ago.
So is the game washed up? if you ask PVE'ers, High Sec Veterans, or Industrialists the answer is Yes.
Um, but this has pretty much always been true (you said it yourself). So your thesis is "EVE has stayed true to it's original theme therefore it's washed up"?
And who's being "herded by force"? Are the GMs teleporting people out of hi-sec? Are pilots in CNRs being forced into Rancer at the point of a CONCORD fleet? Or are you making hysterical hyperbole?
Give me liberty or give me lasers
What missions can't you solo? L1-L4 missions are ridiculously easy to solo. A 1-2 month player in a Drake can solo L4s, never mind someone in a battleship.
Post your fit, I'll help you out.
Give me liberty or give me lasers
No, the original theme of the game was "Be Anything". In the early years, the game got a lot of its people on the premise that there was a ridiculous amount of occupations you could be.
My point was that in reality, this theme has become "Be what we want you to be or we will frustrate you until you do".
Apart from mentioning Darkfall, the OP didn't mention what his position was on PVP or if he would explore all of his possibilities in EVE. My post was meant to point out that if he would be exploring all of his possibilities, then he would quickly become frustrated from a lot of those possibilities.
As for being herded by force. If a club owner wanted you out of his club, you could be forced out of the club by the security. Or they could turn the music into nails on a chalkboard and boost the price on all the booze a few thousand percent. Either way, you leave the club and they got you to do what they wanted.
I dont think the best is yet to come for EVE online....they are spending countless time and dollars so we can walk around in stations.......I love EVE but i think they are not really listening to players that love and play there game instead they are trying to attract the people who will not be loyal to them anyways and probably leave after a month b/c there are no purple items for them to grind.
Playing: PO, EVE
Waiting for: WoD
Favourite MMOs: VG, EVE, FE and DDO
Any person who expresses rage and loathing for an MMO is preposterous. He or she is like a person who has put on full armor and attacked a hot fudge sundae.