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How to create a roleplay MMORPG
Ihmotepp
Member Posts: 14,495
This is about HOW to create a roleplay MMORPG, not whether such a game would be economically feasible, whether it would compete with WoW, etc.
Tehre are two definitions of "roleplay" games.
1. Paper and pencil games, where you play a role. It is similar to acting in a Play, with no script. The story is loosely sketched out by the Dungeon Master, but since all parts are played by human beings, the story can veer off the original path as the actors interact with one another.
2. Computer role playing games. These started with single role player games "rpgs", and have become MMORPGs. Computer RPG means the game has stats and gear, and you go up in power with levels or skills. Your character starts weak, and gets stronger by completing quests and killing stuff.
Stories are about conflict. good vs evil. Humans vs Orcs. Humans vs nature. Humans vs Monsters. Etc.
When you form a group in an MMORPG, you are playing ONE SIDE of the conflict. The other side of the conflict is played by computer scripts.
The computer scripts cannot REACT to your group. It can only do what it's programmed to do. That's it.
So you cannot CREATE a story, like you do in a paper and pencil Role Playing Game. You can only READ the story.
Teh group members can act among themselves, but since there is no REACTION from the other side, no new story is created.
To capture the story telling aspects, and the acting aspects of a Paper and Pencil roleplaying game, ALL parts MUST be played by real human beings.
All NPC's, all MOBs, every creature the players react with must be controlled by another human being. NO SCRIPTED quests, NO A.I.
You could do this two ways.
1. Every creature, like every wolf pup you kill, is played by another player.
2. Some players can control Mobs, like wolf pups, but they don't have to play each one separately, but rather can control groups of them, and set them tasks that are carried out with scripts.
Roleplay, like in paper 'n pencil games where you play a role similar to an actor on a stage, requires action, and REACTION. That means is REQUIRES other players.
You would not be able to simply grind away by yourself, like solo MMO's such as WoW before the end game.
However, since a roleplay game is about the story, and NOT about necessarily grinding up a character in level or skill, you wouldn't need to do this at all.
Although increasing in power can be part of the story, it doens't have to be.
IN paper and pencil games, players often grabbed a character of a certain level, so they could play through a particular story.
There was no need to always restrict your level.
If it was a level 15 story, you could just get a generic level 15 character, and play the story.
You could do this in an MMO as well. You want to play through a level 50 story? Just roll a generic level 50 character and play it.
OR, you can spend time increasing your level as part of the story of your character. The choice is yours.
Comments
That seems more like a post on having players play the monsters, While there may be rolepaly value to that, it doesn't make for a roleplay MMORPG, just a PVP MMO with animal races, as you haven't really added anything to support the roleplay unless your goal is to have meaningful dialog between the monsters and the players prior to each battle.
If you're looking to emulate pen and paper, have you considered a DM and voice chat? If you're looking for stoires beyond single campaign, have you considered adding tools such as the ability to place objects inthe environment or the ability to document history (books, paper, journals, etc).
I'm not seeing much about roleplay in your How To guide there. It seems like LOTRO's MonsterPlay.
There isn't a "right" or "wrong" way to play, if you want to use a screwdriver to put nails into wood, have at it, simply don't complain when the guy next to you with the hammer is doing it much better and easier. - Allein
"Graphics are often supplied by Engines that (some) MMORPG's are built in" - Spuffyre
If you really want to make a roleplaying game, the first thing you need to create is a world for the roleplay to happen in. A world that allows roleplay to prosper and thrive.
If you look at what "roleplay" actually is, you have to throw out the abilities of your characters. That's not roleplay. Roleplay is acting. And acting is enhanced with props. So your world needs to allow for props, and the use of said props. That means allowing players to pick things up, set them down, animate using them, etc.
Sipping from a mug of ale
Quaffing a mug
smoking a pipe
throwing an item
setting out items (floor, table tops)
picking things up
moving things around
lots of animations
You also want to give the roleplay meaning. For example, if a player wants to roleplay a tavernkeeper, taverns need to have meaning in the game so that players use them.
And can I throw in here, that being forced to level out of one zone and into another is a big hinderance to roleplay because it breaks up any consistency of having a favorite tavern, etc.
Once upon a time....
If you wanted to create a roleplay MMORPG, you could take Second Life, go to the RP places, take out all the weird stuff and add better gameplay.
Done.
Actually, gameplay and roleplay sort of fight against each other. The part in a P&P roleplaying game where you're rolling the dice and fighting is mostly gaming, less roleplaying. The less rules and dice are involved, the closer it tends to be towards roleplay.
All the combat systems and various gameplay systems tend to take over the need for creativity in MMOs.
For a good RP environment, it helps to have a LOT of flexibility in character creation, to avoid premade stories, and to have a lot of tools to promote RP... emotes, non-game-essential items and backdrops, and locations where there really is nothing to do BUT RP. How much RPing really gets done in the middle of an end game dungeon?
Amaranthar, an MMO with those features would probably have some incredible parties and epic saloon fights in it.
There isn't a "right" or "wrong" way to play, if you want to use a screwdriver to put nails into wood, have at it, simply don't complain when the guy next to you with the hammer is doing it much better and easier. - Allein
"Graphics are often supplied by Engines that (some) MMORPG's are built in" - Spuffyre
Saying that a story cannot truly be created in a game with AI is like saying that a story cannot truly be created in pencil and paper game with dice. No, in fact it's a bit more ridiculous because AI absolutely do react to player actions.
If creating a new story depends so crucially on "the other side's" capacity to respond, then how do authors write books in the first place? Without a second person to react to what the author writes, how have authors throughout history created stories on their own? I think you're taking a extraordinarily narrow definition of story-telling (not to mention role-playing).
You are correct. I didn't want to write a novel in that first post, so perhaps the title is not accurate.
I was setting up the idea, that roleplay requires humans to play both sides of a conflict, to create a story. You can't effectively roleplay, if one side is a computer script.
Yes, the only thing I described so far is monster play in LOTRO.
There would need to be a lot more, to take this to the next level, and make it a roleplaying game.
The idea is not to merely emulate pen and paper.
That is because Pen and Paper is not "massive". So you can't merely copy Dungeons and Dragons in a MASSIVE game, and expect it to work.
IMO, the AI does not "react". It merely acts.
Reaction implies the ability to decide on a choice of actions according to the situation.
Attack,Talk, Run away, become friends, enemies, temporary allies, Depending on what is said in a conversation, not a multiple choice script.
Perhaps this will make sense to you.
The exciting thing about paper and pencil roleplaying, is that there is a basic plan, and a basic set of rules, but no one, not the players, and not the Dungeon Master knows exactly what will happen.
I'm not talking about writing a story, like writing a book, or writing lore, or writing a quest script, and handing it to someone and saying, here. Read this story.
I'm talking about creating a story, right now, together, where the participants do not know where it's going exactly, because each is reacting to the other. Will it be funny, happy, sad, frustrating, silly?
No one knows until they do it.
I agree with most, but not all of that.
IN D&D leveling didn't stop the roleplaying.
I don't see how it has to online either.
Levels merely change the setting.
If you're level one, the setting is a swamp with a couple of goblins.
If you're level 20, the setting might be a city where you are well known and respected, and you are fighting a dragon.
And that's also where the human GM comes in.
He or she doesn't throw a dragon at you when you are level 1, or goblins at you when you are level 20.
Similarly, when you're level 1 goblins could pick a fight with you in the tavern.
When you're level 20, a dragon could attack the tavern.
Same tavern.
Birthday suits enabled + seperate item slots for underwear and having a wide choice in that should go a long way as well.
My brand new bloggity blog.
I don't think its necessary to have all roleplay aspects be done by a human.
AI has improved a lot lately.. you can hold conversations with AI and its hard to tell its actually a computer.
Ihmo definitely hits on one key reason traditional role-playing isn't a significant part of videogame RPGs.
The ability for DMs to create dynamic experiences on the fly, at an acceptable level of quality, is still many years away (decades even.) And inevitably if we made a RP-centric game it would never achieve the imaginative expansiveness of traditional RPGs nor would it achieve the visual/audio fidelity of a videogame RPG, but instead walk some as-of-yet-untread middle ground.
I can describe a world with floating castles where sky bandits and dragons harass the trade lines, and your mind will immediately fill in the blanks with some of the things which might populate that world -- and that's the advantage of traditional RPGs.
Conversely I can create an entire videogame which portrays a single specific storyline and fully visualizes that world for you -- but this videogame cannot adapt on the fly to the party which wants to diverge from the predefined story (usually it's plural -- stories - but it's still a finite space which cannot adapt to players on the fly, and that was Ihmo's main point I think.)
Perhaps an important note is that the more massively multiplayer a videogame RPG is, the less realistic it is to want a traditional RPG experience. Just feels like the larger the group is, the less likely you'll convince 100% of the poulace to agree and role-play nicely with one another, and the more likely real-world behaviors will infringe upon the experience. Call it "creative disagreements" if you will.
It's like bringing a younger sibling into a traditional RPG group for the first time -- "...um, so you just walked into town and the first thing you want to do is attack the city guard?" Or bringing someone into the group who has a substantially different idea for how things should be run. In a large enough group, it's going to happen.
"What is truly revealing is his implication that believing something to be true is the same as it being true. [continue]" -John Oliver
Maybe a game should allow players to become the elite bosses inside a dungeon!
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Kyleran: "Now there's the real trick, learning to accept and enjoy a game for what it offers rather than pass on what might be a great playing experience because it lacks a few features you prefer."
John Henry Newman: "A man would do nothing if he waited until he could do it so well that no one could find fault."
FreddyNoNose: "A good game needs no defense; a bad game has no defense." "Easily digested content is just as easily forgotten."
LacedOpium: "So the question that begs to be asked is, if you are not interested in the game mechanics that define the MMORPG genre, then why are you playing an MMORPG?"
That was one of the rewards in LOTRO, no?
There isn't a "right" or "wrong" way to play, if you want to use a screwdriver to put nails into wood, have at it, simply don't complain when the guy next to you with the hammer is doing it much better and easier. - Allein
"Graphics are often supplied by Engines that (some) MMORPG's are built in" - Spuffyre
Same tavern? Different clientel as players level up. The tavern is static but the players move on. Eventually, so will the tavernkeeper as he follows his friends.
Once upon a time....
Yes it would. And all manner of social interactions.
But on the negative side, so as the entire world doesn't turn into a brawl, you'd need some "justice" in order to hold it down. Laws and reparations, based on ownership of more than just what's in a player's backpack.
Once upon a time....
What's missing from teh entire equation, is a referee.
We have games where both sides are played by humans. It's called RvR in DAoC and similar games.
But the players don't engage in any story.
Because there is no referee.
Both sides are playing to win. And that's the same with your LOTRO example, where players are allowed to play MObs. They want to win.
But in a paper and pencil game, the Dungeon Master isn't trying to win.
He's trying to provide a challenge, and the opportunity to create a story.
In fact, a good Dungeon Master WANTS the players to beat his monsters and bad guys.
That's their purpose.
But at the same time, the DM doesn't want to make it to easy, and he will want to punish stupidity, lack of thought and creativity.
Take the simplest of stories, where the players rescue a small town from an evil group of bandits that is beseiging it.
IN PvP, nobody wants to be those bandits, that are there to be beaten, so the townsfolk can be grateful.
Or, they don't wnat to be those brave adventurers that the townsfolk put their trust in, only to get beaten by the bandits, adn ahve the townsfolk think they are worthless.
that doesn't ever happen in an MMORPG. You always win in the story, or, there is no story.
Yes, there are games like EVE where the players determine who controls space.
That's more of a "history" of battles than a story with clues and so forth, orchestrated by a referee, the Game Master or Dungeon MAster.
That is probably the single biggest hurdle to such a set up. On the one hand, you would want a good variety and number of players to play with, but what do you do with the undesirables? They certainly have a right to play as they wish. It's not out of the question that the onilne community could get rid of the undesirable players by making it impossible for them to play effectively, thus 'policing' the community themselves. Not like it hasn't been done before. But that is a rather prevential attitude and not everyone has the same degree of tolerance or even the same definition of an undesirable player.
I think a good solution would be to make a game where everyone is catered to in this regard. The types of encounters and set up talked about in this thread would just be one optional part of a bigger game. Players would know what is required and expected of them to participate in this aspect beforehand, so they would be informed. In my opinion, making a game that is just about roleplay is as silly as making a game that is all about combat, though the latter has proven to be fairly popular. A great game would be able to incorporate both, and may even go a long way in bringing different types of players together instead of always trying to segregate them.
Vault-Tec analysts have concluded that the odds of worldwide nuclear armaggeddon this decade are 17,143,762... to 1.
I've never played the game, but I've heard Neverwinter Nights (1 or 2?) was like that.
I agree. I like to think of myself as one of the more tolerant folks in online communities. Most days
Vault-Tec analysts have concluded that the odds of worldwide nuclear armaggeddon this decade are 17,143,762... to 1.
Look no further than NWN1 and 2, the ones from Bioware and Obsidian. Although both games have come into the years there's still a sizeable RP community out there. Tons of playermade content for both games available: http://nwvault.ign.com/
I maintain this List of Sandbox MMORPGs. Please post or send PM for corrections and suggestions.
Besides the obvious emotes and non-combat activities that RP requires I think the following feature would really add a lot.
Give players a couple of persistent minions that they can send out to perform certain tasks. These minions could be human peasants working for the player, they could be minor demons bound to the player, maybe goblin that were enslaved by the player. Lots of options.
Basically the player can send them to a location in the game world ( any location really ) and they'll start wandering nearby that selected point. The player also gives them a small objective.
If the objective is chop wood then the minions will go to the selected point and start randomly wandering until they come near a tree. If they come near a tree they chop it down and collect the wood. They'll keep on wandering until their pack is full of wood and then return to the nearest bank to deposit it into the player's account.. Dying means they drop their collected wood and respawn to try again.
If the objective is protection then the minions will randomly wander near the selected point and attack any hostile entities ( players, minion or other NPCs ) they come across. They'll take all the loot and deposit it in the bank when their pack is full. If they die then they'll drop all their collected loot and respawn to try again.
If the objective is robbery then the minions will randomly wander near the selected point and attack any non-allied entities ( players, minions or other NPCs ) they come across. Loot them, take loot to bank and return. On death drop all their loot and respawn to try again.
There could also be non-location bound objectives like following an allied player and assisting him in combat and gathering.
By having these minions their main actions be decided by the player you create a much more dynamic and interesting world.
Especially in a faction versus faction environment you could have the majority of the enemy faction's PvE be fighting your own minions.
All in all the game is much more alive and especially RPers could coordinate with each other to play out their stories using each other's minions to serve as the enemies. And since everything the minions drop is lost by the controlling player it can't really be abused. Why create an alt and kill his minions when you could just have the alt mail you the stuff those minions carried?
We are the bunny.
Resistance is futile.
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(")("),,(")("),(")(")
Opinions are fine, but we're talking about a word that has an actual definition. To react means to act in response to something. I don't mean to belabor the point and drone on about dictionaries, but your misuse of the word was what led me to disagree with you. AI-controlled entities are reacting if they take an action based on a "multiple choice script" that accepts input from players, such as a mob that turns to fight an opponent who taunts it, or an NPC who entrusts you with a task if you /kneel before them.
If you mean that AI cannot respond appropriately to a player action that they weren't programmed to watch for, you're probably right. If you mean that an NPC cannot surprise you, or that you know the story's outcome (funny, happy, sad) because you are interacting with an NPC, I think there's no question that you're wrong. As I said, you are taking a very narrow definition of story-telling, once in which the intrusion of any automated response ruins the story, even if it was neither predictable nor predetermined.
I refer you again to my comparison to pencil and paper games with dice. You try to bluff the gate guard into letting you pass. The DM rolls dice to see whether he believes you. By your standard, that would be unacceptable. Even though the result of the roll is something that nobody knows until it is rolled, the story is ruined because something happened that wasn't a choice made by any human participant.
Exactly, The community has been around for years and it's got a rather massive following. NWVault has a section specifically for Dungeon Master Friendly Modules, Emergence. Check them out!
There isn't a "right" or "wrong" way to play, if you want to use a screwdriver to put nails into wood, have at it, simply don't complain when the guy next to you with the hammer is doing it much better and easier. - Allein
"Graphics are often supplied by Engines that (some) MMORPG's are built in" - Spuffyre
I also agree. There have been some great roleplay games created with NWNs.
I played on one world that did not allow combat, for example. EVERYTHING was roleplay only, and it revolved around politics.
that's not going to happen in current MMORPGs.
What if instead the player bribes the guard, tells the guard a joke, tries to seduce the gaurd? Tries to recruit the guard to his religion, political view point, etc?
What sort of funny situations and stories could result, if the gaurd was a HUMAN BEING reacting to these various strategies?
Even with a dice role, the Dungeon Master would play the Guard, and there would be DIALOG back and forth between the player and the gaurd.
Just that one little scenario could provide endless opportunities to play a character, and tell a story, and be very entertaining.
That's different, IMO, than you rolled a 7 the gaurd lets you pass. Maybe you played Paper n Pencil with some really bad Game Masters?
That's a dice roll you're talking about, not a story.
The story would be, the time they tried to enter the city, and Jorry the Thief told a joke so funny, the guard wet his pants laughing. They still got arrested, but boy was the gaurd embarrased!
Or maybe they did get in the gate while the gaurd was changing his pants!
You don't get that with JUST a dice roll.
And that requies that a HUMAN BEING plays the Gaurd.
And what player wants to be the Gaurd?
Not the Gaurd that's going to gank you, but the Gaurd that's going to listen to the Joke, and roleplay laughing so hard he peed his pants?
Well, the same people that liked to GM games would be happy to play those parts if you gave them the right tools.
And no, that's not the same as, "If you have a 17 charisma, and choose "tell joke" in the dialog tree, the gaurd will wet his pants and you can get in the gate".