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Why MMOs are joyless enterprises
UknownAspect
Member Posts: 277
MMOs like every game before them, including tic-tac-toe and street fighter 2 provide joy to the people playing the game because they choose to find joy in them.
If you don't enjoy playing your MMO, there is nothing they could change to make you enjoy your time playing the game. Any game that you consider a "grinder" or "just another clone" will always live up to your expectations because you will never allow it to move outside of your preconceived notions.
MMOs these days have advanced to a point where there is so much to do, we can't even decide for ourselves, so we follow whatever is the shiniest. Instead of logging in, talking to our guildmates, and just having fun playing around in the virtual world, we force ourselves to follow some pre-conceived path dictated by developers and quest writers.
Do we have to follow the quests? No. But what else is there to do? EVERYTHING!
Take WoW for example. Hugely quest focused, completely dependent on heroics and raids. Or is it? What is really telling us to play the game like that? Did the older games most people get nostalgic for force them to play a certain way?
The people who have the most fun playing WoW are those people who play the way they want to. Trying to level without killing anything, or following a certain story line, or repeatedly running dungeons or battlegrounds. But the biggest thing people seem to forget is that there is no pre-determined path on how to play these games. What are your goals when playing these games? Are you even thinking of having fun or is everything just another stepping stone to be the best rogue on the server?
Life is what you make of it and MMOs aren't anything more.
If you aren't having fun playing MMOs, it's your fault. Not the developers for poor design, and not the community for whining. You decide how to get enjoyment out of the game, not everyone else.
MMOs played: Horizons, Auto Assault, Ryzom, EVE, WAR, WoW, EQ2, LotRO, GW, DAoC, Aion, Requiem, Atlantica, DDO, Allods, Earth Eternal, Fallen Earth, Rift
Willing to try anything new
Comments
MMO's have barely evolved in the past 12 years. Each one is almost a repeat of the last. No innovation. That's why they are boring nowdays. Naturally, I blame the developers for not taking enough risks.
To me it starts with the newbie experience...everything is on rails and too freaking easy. They treat everyone like brain dead monkeys with fetch this fetch that bullshit quests. Don't get me started.....
Agree with that. Most developers like the easy work for the easy money.
Personally I'd go as far to say they devolved over the past 12 years. Complexity has gone out the door for most developers, replaced with regurgitation of mind numblingly simplistic gameplay.
My first MMO experience was Ultima Online. A game where every item was more than just a fancy icon in your inventory. Each item was an object that could be dropped on the ground, moved around and picked up by other players. They had weight, so you couldn't haul around too many heavy objects. Some items were considered large enough to even block movement if they were dropped onto the ground, of both players and NPCs.
These little nuances are lost in newer MMOs, yet all of them added up made a large difference in how the game felt. Things in the game world actually felt like they had substance, that they were more than just fancy graphics with number modifiers. Which is part of why I'm bored with MMOs lately, because every new MMO is the same artifical feeling junk that's been churned out for the last several years.
I don't think building any MMO is easy, and if you look at the list of successfull games vs. failed games over the last 10 years it's pretty clear that the MMO business is not easy money for most companies.
Developers that want to take the easy road are not building MMOs, they're building console games or mobile apps where there is much less risk and a much lower bar of entry.
I agree with your observations about UO in a certain respect. UO set a high water mark on features that in some ways has never been eclipsed, although maybe it has been matched in some areas by some games.
The item system in UO was great from a player's point of view. As you pointed out it provided a very "real" feel to the game. Unfortunately the devs of UO were a viticm of inexperience in the genere. While the item system was a great feature, it was way too inneficient for the technology of the time to handle. There is a reason that almost every game after UO went to a more streamlined, more limited item system, because the hardware and network simply could not handle the vast amounts of data that needed to be handled by so many items. UO was a great game, but I also remember the endless downtime, exploits and bugs.
Perhaps the features of MMOs have not evolved as much as we would like over the years but they have certainly become much more stable and as a result, less frustrating and more fun to play. There are some games though that have pushed the envalope on the features front with varying success.
DAOC - A great implementation of RvR
SWG - Player cities and a great resource system
Eve - Extremely complex player driven economy
WOW - Instanced dungeons, cross-server battlegrounds, server switching, web access to auctions
A Tale in the Desert - totally different type of game with complex crafting and min-games
I'm sure there are plenty of other examples. I think it's just frustrating for gamers that the large publishers have not been able to pull these various features together into a single great game.
That's probably the problem: An environment of lower risk leads to more creativity. eg apps and games in the 80's when dev costs were much lower. MMOs are so high risk and if you make them you intend not to just scrape a respectable profit but to make mega-bucks... that's probably a lot to do with why so many churn out the same experience for the widest crowd possible instead of creative and different worlds which: "It will grow for the audience it finds" ~ Cinco Barnes.
It'll be interesting to see what mobile mmos bring to the game in the next 12 months. There's a real chance to innovate (as well as only imitate the PC platform eg O&C). I don't know how much longer it will take for PC MMO developers to stop trying so hard to "eat" the whole pie of MMO Players available!
http://www.gdcvault.com/play/1014633/Classic-Game-Postmortem
I'm hoping the success of Mindcraft and Terraria spark mmo developers interest in building an in depth sand box experience with the right mix of themepark elements to avoid alienating too many players! The amount of near instantaneous success that these two titles have garnered is staggering and should allow all of us sand box supporters a well deserved, "Yea, we told you so!", in regards to the constant mewling of those who have only ever played/supported themepark experiences.
I've been looking for a MMO for 12 years that have everything, seems you been playing one, can you give me the link to that MMO that has everything please.
If it's not broken, you are not innovating.
All games are becoming simplistic, not just MMO's.
You need to have an imagination. I'm sorry that you don't have one and will continually be waiting for someone else to provide you with one that suits your needs.
I have fun with every game I play. Maybe I'm unique. But any problem someone has is going to be a personal preference. If you can't get past your own preference, you will never find happiness. Until of course someone makes the perfect MMO, which of course will never happen, because each and every one of us wants something different.
If no MMO is good, maybe the MMOs aren't the problem, maybe it's you.
MMOs played: Horizons, Auto Assault, Ryzom, EVE, WAR, WoW, EQ2, LotRO, GW, DAoC, Aion, Requiem, Atlantica, DDO, Allods, Earth Eternal, Fallen Earth, Rift
Willing to try anything new
Ok, so i just have to imagine building a house and grow crops, I only have to imagine to shop down a wood, I only have to imagine to raise an undead army and attack a NPC village, I only have to imagine killing the local king and take the crown for myself and rule a kingdom full of NPCs and players.
If that what it takes then why even play a MMO, why just not take out a beer sit on the porch and Imagine a fantasy world and getting lost in it.?
If it's not broken, you are not innovating.
The joyless quest grind is like a ringing telephone. You don't have to answer it. You could just ignore it. The technology is there to serve us, not the other way around, right? Our lives would be better if we were free of the tether that binds us. But how many people do you know are able to do this? I am sure there are a few people that can manage to shut out the noise, but not many. The only way to free yourself is to turn it off. Then once you miss enough calls you fall behind, lose touch with everyone you know.
Maybe if it weren't so integral to our lives (or in the case of quests, our games) we would want to live without it, but that isn't the case is it?
OP you forgot that MMOs are NOT single player games. Therefore peer pressure is a part of it. If the way you play is being pushed by the devs a certain way then that means a lot of the players will follow in that specific way. That doesnt mean that you have to follow it but you will be most likely removing quite a bit of the social aspect of it. That means it will prolly end up removing the MMO tag for that person. That will also most likely end up with the player completely bored of the game because there just isnt much of what the specific player wants to do.
Have you ever tried to skip quests entirely in world of warcraft? If you did then youd see just how boring it is and I did skip quests for it for one char just to test it out. Levelling was slow, I was completely lost, I rarely saw other people, people werent talking much, etc.
Now why did this happen? Because the environment the devs set up conditioned people to do what they are doing. Instead of relaxing and having fun doing whatever, youre subconsciouly forced to go back to the hamster wheel and if you dont then youre just bored.
That is of course the aspect of most MMOs. It gives you fake freedom to do what you want but when you actually do try to do what you want, youll find yourself playing outside the games rules which then leads you to not playing the game in the way it was supposed to be played which then leads to it not being fun for very long.
Have you ever tried playing tic tac toe outside of the games rules? Its really near impossible. Have you ever tried playing street fighted as a counter type char? Pretty fun! why? Becaue you can and its within the games enforced rules.
Have you ever tried to play WoW as a pure crafter? Impossible because they didnt make the game to cate to people who want to be pure crafters. Thats the main problem with joyless MMOs. Its because what the person is looking for is not really being catered by the specific MMO.
There IS a predetermined path to playing an MMO and its based on their features and mechanics. You wanna make a lil base for your guild in Champions Online? You cant. How about a faux base in a part of the map? Sure! Will it be very fun and will you be able to actually use that without having too much trouble getting around? Depends on the location! o.o
Wanna grinnd enemies without doing quests or open quests in CO? Sure! But itll be slow because the developers didnt design the world to be played that way. So why should you play an MMO like WoW for open world pvp when some other game can do it a TON better? Why should you play Champions Online to be a pure crafter when you can find that enjoyment somewhere else where its actually a big focus?
''/\/\'' Posted using Iphone bunni
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**This bunny was cloned from bunnies belonging to Gobla and is part of the Quizzical Fanclub and the The Marvelously Meowhead Fan Club**
Maybe you just are OK with any rubbish gameplay they throw at you and you have no standards, or maybe you have been playing such crappy games that you just don't know there's better stuff out there.
Maybe some of us have higher expectations and, as paying customers (most of the times) we feel entitled to demand more, becouse we know the companies can deliver it, even though they won't becouse they just want to cash the box sales quickly.
To show you how weak your argument is, I ll just rephrase it using music instead.
Maybe if you don't like death metal the problem is you. You need to have ears. I am sorry you don't have yours and will continualy be waiting for someone else to provide you with some that suit your needs.
I have fun listening to every death metal song. Maybe I'm unique. But any problem someone has is going to be a personal preference. If you can't get past your own musical tastes, you will never find happiness. Until of course someone makes the perfect death metal song, which of course will never happen, becouse each and every one of us likes a different band.
If no death metal song is good, maybe death metal songs are not the problem, maybe it's you.
i miss the conflicts, the trains, the weird pathing, the spawn competition, the corpseruns, the killsteelers, the twinks, the buff beggers, the xp-loss, the failed tricky pulls, and dying hard 1oo times trying to solo this damn red dragon because it has to be possible, ... the big drama is gone baby.
played: Everquest I (6 years), EVE (3 years)
months: EQII, Vanguard, Siedler Online, SWTOR, Guild Wars 2
weeks: WoW, Shaiya, Darkfall, Florensia, Entropia, Aion, Lotro, Fallen Earth, Uncharted Waters
days: DDO, RoM, FFXIV, STO, Atlantica, PotBS, Maestia, WAR, AoC, Gods&Heroes, Cultures, RIFT, Forsaken World, Allodds
If you can't find an MMO to get lost in, get out of MMOs. Maybe it is probably better that you just sit on the porch with a beer and let your mind take you to the wonderful places you need to go.
MMOs played: Horizons, Auto Assault, Ryzom, EVE, WAR, WoW, EQ2, LotRO, GW, DAoC, Aion, Requiem, Atlantica, DDO, Allods, Earth Eternal, Fallen Earth, Rift
Willing to try anything new
I think you're arguing that people unhappy with current MMO offerings are that way because they "want" to be unhappy. I don't agree with this...here's why.
I'm am not a WoW hater by any regard, but before WoW came out, there were several MMORPGs that I felt were very good. UO, EQ, DAoC, AC. All of these MMO's were capable of holding my interest for more than a month. Sometimes I would quit for a time, but I would usually come back to one of them. Best of all, they were all so different from one another that it provided a great deal of variety.
Then comes WoW, WoW is an awesome game and it definitely fits into the category of a game that holds my attention for more than a month. The problem is that after WoW, every game that comes out is just like WoW! I'll play them for a bit, have some fun, but then I'm done and I never want to go back. If I ever want to get the "WoW experience" again, I'll just go back to WoW, no need to go back to WoW clone X.
I want some variety in my MMORPGs. I'm only dissatisfied because every AAA game that comes out tries to be WoW with maybe one or two things different.
Are you team Azeroth, team Tyria, or team Jacob?
Hahaha, this is exactly what's wrong with gamer culture. Not to mention anything associated with buyers remorse.
You seem to forget that as a paying customer you don't get to decide anything except where to put your money. Just like there are different bands that play different music. And different plumbers that do the same jobs but in different ways. There will always be different MMOs with different plusses and minuses.
And with every service you purchase, you get what they give. You don't get to choose what they give, you get to choose whether to have, or not to have, their service.
You've lost touch with reality. You aren't special. You are a consumer, if you want to play a MMOs in a certain way you can either choose one that fits best, or you can keep waiting on one that you think will fit. Or take the path least taken and build a virtual world yourself. Your only limitations are yourself, quit relying on developers to give you what you want. They aren't making the game for you, they are making it for Generic MMO Gamer Type A and sometimes Type B.
MMOs played: Horizons, Auto Assault, Ryzom, EVE, WAR, WoW, EQ2, LotRO, GW, DAoC, Aion, Requiem, Atlantica, DDO, Allods, Earth Eternal, Fallen Earth, Rift
Willing to try anything new
Thank you Creslin! You saved some of us the time spent writing pretty much the same thing! /salute
I'm not arguing that people want to be unhappy, merely that they are limitting themselves. Try playing a game the way you want it to play and you will have a good time. You are the one who gets to make the choice. If you don't like the game, quit and move on. But will you really enjoy a game if you never try to enjoy it?
Happiness is all about perspective. And if you approach every MMO in the same way, expecting it to be revolutionary or different, when will your expectations be met?
In the meantime, you could actually try and enjoy the game you are playing and live a happy life free of disdain and unmet expectations.
MMOs played: Horizons, Auto Assault, Ryzom, EVE, WAR, WoW, EQ2, LotRO, GW, DAoC, Aion, Requiem, Atlantica, DDO, Allods, Earth Eternal, Fallen Earth, Rift
Willing to try anything new
Perhaps once an mmo is newly released that reaches or exceeds the expectations of the long time gamers that frequent this site? I can't just close myself off completely from past gaming experiences and swill down whatever half arsed attempt has been most recently launched! In short, I've developed standards over time like anyone exposed to something over a long period tends to do.
Well, I never said that I don't enjoy the new games that come out, I just said they fail to keep my interest because they are so similar to WoW. And given how quickly subscriptions drop off from newer games nowadays...I don't think I'm the only one that feels this way.
Basically it comes down to...
In the past there was A, B, C, D, and, E and they were all good.
Now there is X, it is good, but there is only X. Why can't we have A, B, C, D, and E again as well as X?
It would be kind of like if they completely stopped making "tacital FPS" games like Call of Duty and only made the more traditional FPS games like Halo. A lot of people would say "hey why can't they make a CoD type game again? We miss that!" It's the same with MMORPGs.
Are you team Azeroth, team Tyria, or team Jacob?
Some of us have been trying to enjoy MMOs for the past six years, only to be left with a bitter reminder that what we've been playing still feels lacking over what was available a decade ago. At least, that's how I feel.
I've tried several different more recent MMOs. I want to enjoy them, I really do. Why would I continually spend money on something that I don't want to enjoy? The answer is that no sane person would.
The fact of the matter is simply that modern MMOs are not made with the same perspective or goals as oldschool MMOs, and as such they play quite differently. It's not a problem with my perception or my taste in gameplay. It's an issue of developers not bothering to try to create MMOs that feel like a virtual worlds anymore.
I agree with what some people say that there's less variety in the AAA slice of MMO games than there used to be 10 years back.
I disagree however that WoW should be the only AAA MMORPG that fills the themepark spot, as if other themepark MMO's aren't enjoyable. The argument that "if I want to play WoW kind of gameplay, then I play WoW" is flawed: it's like saying 'if I like to eat pie, then I eat apple pie' or 'if I like to drink beer, then I drink Heineken' or 'if I want a hamburger, then I go to McDonald's'.
Sure, you might want to eat something else than pie or hamburger or drink something else than beer, but if you want some of those then there's no reason why people should only be limited to apple pie, Heineken beer or McDonald's hamburgers and not eat other pies or drink other beers if they like pie and beer. The same with themepark MMO's, there are more themepark MMO's that can be hugely entertaining besides WoW.
Also, while I can understand that people want to have more variety in the AAA segment, why should you only limit yourself to AAA MMO's if you want to play something different? How about smaller titles that offer different gameplay? Or how about older titles? All the ones that fans of older MMO's rave about are still there. Sure, the graphics are outdated but all the mechanics that people loved, those are still in those games like DAoC, UO, EQ, etc. And from what I understand those people complaining about current MMO's and adoring older MMO's care less about graphics anyway compared to the gameplay that they loved of those older MMO's.
So, again: why not play those smaller but different titles or the older MMO's that you loved?
On a sidenote, it looks like the next 2 years will see an expansion in diversity in the AAA segment as well, with titles as ArcheAge, TERA, GW2, TSW and WoD upcoming. I guess then we'll really learn how much of the dissatisfaction was a result of too few AAA titles around that weren't 'WoW clones', and how much of it was actually MMO fatigue and burnout and 'first love' nostalgia.
The ACTUAL size of MMORPG worlds: a comparison list between MMO's
The ease with which predictions are made on these forums:
Fratman: "I'm saying Spring 2012 at the earliest [for TOR release]. Anyone still clinging to 2011 is deluding themself at this point."
Thank you... personally, I think the OP is being incredibly unrealistic. I understand the importance of imagination, of course, but this "it's your fault for not imagining enough" mentality is way over the top.
I don't know about you, OP, but if a certain game isn't what someone wants to play, and then a crapload of games release later that are just the same game with different colors as the game they didn't want to play, it is not the person's fault for not being 'imaginitive' enough.
Here is an example of the ridiculous notion provided... in CRAYON : person goes to restaurant, orders a steak. 1hr later they bring to the table an elaborate display of covered dishes, steaming hot, looking like the entire hour it took to prepare them was worth it.... person lifts the lid to find a pile of dog poo instead of the steak they ordered. Person complains to management, and management retorts with "You aren't using your imagination. it's your fault it taste like crap."
This is not a troll, flame, or anything else worth banning me over. It is simply my pure opinion, and I have a right to share it.