On a sidenote, it looks like the next 2 years will see an expansion in diversity in the AAA segment as well, with titles as ArcheAge, TERA, GW2, TSW and WoD upcoming. I guess then we'll really learn how much of the dissatisfaction was a result of too few AAA titles around that weren't 'WoW clones', and how much of it was actually MMO fatigue and burnout and 'first love' nostalgia.
I think this brings up a very important point. You have to consider a) How long it takes to put together an AAA title, and b) how much money it costs. These two things by their very nature are going to slow down innovation, it's as simple as that.
With so much money involved, any risks taken need to be minimized. Revolution doesn't happen overnight, it takes time. You have to take what is working and build upon it, move it to the next step. The steps are going to be small, and they're going to be a long time apart, but they are there. We're now just starting to see the results of what has been going on for the last 12 years.
Let's take a look at the list of titles mentioned here:
ArchAge: Amazing graphics (Not revolutionary, but not all games manage it), and the promise of a lot of Sandbox elements intertwined with the themepark gameplay the majority of players are accustomed too.
Tera: Evolving in a different direction than most, this game with give us MORE action oriented gameplay. Good for some, bad for others, but it is at least a change.
GW2: Dynamic Events. Hopefully this will be a step beyond the usual 'public quests' and will go further than Rift. B2P? Meh. Most games are ending up F2P anyway now, making them B2P for early adopters.
TSW: Personal feelings about the developer aside, there is a lot going for this game. We're moving away from classes and levels, quite a step for some people. We have the 3 factions many have been whining for. I love the talk of quests that will have to be figured out by the community outside of game.
WoD: double-meh We know next to nothing about this game, other than the ip and the developer who happens to run a niche game and may or may not be able to step it up from there.
The point is, things are moving, and they have been for a long time. If you're not happy with the progress, I'd blame your own unrealistic expectations.
I agree with what some people say that there's less variety in the AAA slice of MMO games than there used to be 10 years back.
I disagree however that WoW should be the only AAA MMORPG that fills the themepark spot, as if other themepark MMO's aren't enjoyable. The argument that "if I want to play WoW kind of gameplay, then I play WoW" is flawed: it's like saying 'if I like to eat pie, then I eat apple pie' or 'if I like to drink beer, then I drink Heineken' or 'if I want a hamburger, then I go to McDonald's'.
Sure, you might want to eat something else than pie or hamburger or drink something else than beer, but if you want some of those then there's no reason why people should only be limited to apple pie, Heineken beer or McDonald's hamburgers and not eat other pies or drink other beers if they like pie and beer. The same with themepark MMO's, there are more themepark MMO's that can be hugely entertaining besides WoW.
Also, while I can understand that people want to have more variety in the AAA segment, why should you only limit yourself to AAA MMO's if you want to play something different? How about smaller titles that offer different gameplay? Or how about older titles? All the ones that fans of older MMO's rave about are still there. Sure, the graphics are outdated but all the mechanics that people loved, those are still in those games like DAoC, UO, EQ, etc. And from what I understand those people complaining about current MMO's and adoring older MMO's care less about graphics anyway compared to the gameplay that they loved of those older MMO's.
So, again: why not play those smaller but different titles or the older MMO's that you loved?
On a sidenote, it looks like the next 2 years will see an expansion in diversity in the AAA segment as well, with titles as ArcheAge, TERA, GW2, TSW and WoD upcoming. I guess then we'll really learn how much of the dissatisfaction was a result of too few AAA titles around that weren't 'WoW clones', and how much of it was actually MMO fatigue and burnout and 'first love' nostalgia.
Yeah I agree that Rift, Allods, WAR, AoC, etc. etc. etc. are different from WoW for sure. My argument is that they are not different enough from WoW to make me want to play them over WoW.
WoW offers just about all the features they do and more. And let's be honest, they are pretty similar. In all those games you spend the vast majority of your time doing the same things you would be doing in WoW. Get quests, kill monsters, level up, find group for dungeon, PvP in battlegrounds, blah blah blah. They just have minor differences like in AoC the combat system in combo based, in Rift there are ...rifts, in WAR they have a crappy verison of RvR. But in the end, they are very much like WoW.
Now look at how different the old game were from one another:
UO: Sandbox game, time can be spent in player generated areas, getting money for houses and such, decorating your property, PvP with full loot, etc. etc.
EQ: Early themepark game, I consider it the precursor to WoW. Time is usually spent grinding exp in a group, dungeon crawling or raiding.
DAoC: Really unique RvR game. You can spend your time fighting monsters EQ style, or participating in full on huge, meaningful RvR battles.
They were all so different, and yet all good in their own ways. Now, the quest based paradigm dominates MMORPGs, that's all there is.
Finally, I do agree that there are a lot of titles that look promising, so hopefully these arguments will all be a thing of the past soon!
Also, while I can understand that people want to have more variety in the AAA segment, why should you only limit yourself to AAA MMO's if you want to play something different? How about smaller titles that offer different gameplay? Or how about older titles? All the ones that fans of older MMO's rave about are still there. Sure, the graphics are outdated but all the mechanics that people loved, those are still in those games like DAoC, UO, EQ, etc. And from what I understand those people complaining about current MMO's and adoring older MMO's care less about graphics anyway compared to the gameplay that they loved of those older MMO's.
So, again: why not play those smaller but different titles or the older MMO's that you loved?
Great question, here's the answer.
First and foremost, most of those titles are long since dead, and MMORPG's just aren't fun in a small scale setting as for me its the people who make the game.
But besides that, the next major issue is that most older games are just a shadow of their former glory. They been given too many unwanted expansions and attempted to incorporate too many modern features that have changed them into something they never were during their glory days.
I'll take DAOC for example, it was pretty much ruined by the TOA expansion, and finished off in most people's books by the New Frontiers. Toss in Catacombs, horses, fast teleoports, reduced downtime between fights, and huge uptick in soloability (and faster leveling) and trust me on this, its just not the same game at all.
There was talk about creating a new Origins server without all the above mentioned expansions and I think it would have been very popular for a year or two, but EA basically terminated that effort and put the Devs on the Warhammer team which probably was the deathnell for whatever hope we had for a return to the old ways.
You'll notice that EQ recently launched a new progression server and from all accounts its been pretty popular, wish EA would smarten up as well.
Just trying to live long enough to play a new, released MMORPG, playing New Worlds atm
Fools find no pleasure in understanding but delight in airing their own opinions. Pvbs 18:2, NIV
Don't just play games, inhabit virtual worlds™
"This is the most intelligent, well qualified and articulate response to a post I have ever seen on these forums. It's a shame most people here won't have the attention span to read past the second line." - Anon
You'll notice that EQ recently launched a new progression server and from all accounts its been pretty popular, wish EA would smarten up as well.
EQ's new progression server is also a bastardization of what original EQ was much like your example of how DAoC is no longer the same game. The emulated EQ servers are closer to what original EQ was but still they have problems of their own as well as lower populations than live servers.
it's like saying 'if I like to eat pie, then I eat apple pie' or 'if I like to drink beer, then I drink Heineken' or 'if I want a hamburger, then I go to McDonald's'.
your picture is a bit wrong:
its more like: "When i went in a restaurant in 2001, i could order steak, fish, sphaegtti, pizza, heck even vegetarian. now in 2011 all restaurants are serving hamburgers, double hamburgers, double cheeseburgers and actually announced for 2012 triple chickenburgers without tomatoes."
wouldnt you call these missing tomatoes a revolution?
Do we have to follow the quests? No. But what else is there to do? EVERYTHING!
I've been looking for a MMO for 12 years that have everything, seems you been playing one, can you give me the link to that MMO that has everything please.
You need to have an imagination. I'm sorry that you don't have one and will continually be waiting for someone else to provide you with one that suits your needs.
Ok, so i just have to imagine building a house and grow crops, I only have to imagine to shop down a wood, I only have to imagine to raise an undead army and attack a NPC village, I only have to imagine killing the local king and take the crown for myself and rule a kingdom full of NPCs and players.
If that what it takes then why even play a MMO, why just not take out a beer sit on the porch and Imagine a fantasy world and getting lost in it.?
If you can't find an MMO to get lost in, get out of MMOs. Maybe it is probably better that you just sit on the porch with a beer and let your mind take you to the wonderful places you need to go.
You still haven't given an MMO that you can do everything in as you say, please tell me an example about what you call everything.
You'll notice that EQ recently launched a new progression server and from all accounts its been pretty popular, wish EA would smarten up as well.
True, and also a point I'd want to bring into attention. There is an oldschool MMO, that has and the mechanics from the start that people loved and the population that's needed for a healthy community: the EQ progression servers. I'm willing to bet though that a lot of the MMO drifters on this site that keep complaining about how good the old MMO's were and how bad the current ones, aren't all playing on that server, far from even. Instead my guess - I can be wrong but I doubt it - is that most of those are still drifting and MMO homeless.
Even if there's an MMORPG out there that has everything that they were looking for in those older MMO's.
Originally posted by UsulDaNeriak
Originally posted by MMO.Maverick
it's like saying 'if I like to eat pie, then I eat apple pie' or 'if I like to drink beer, then I drink Heineken' or 'if I want a hamburger, then I go to McDonald's'.
your picture is a bit wrong:
its more like: "When i went in a restaurant in 2001, i could order steak, fish, sphaegtti, pizza, heck even vegetarian. now in 2011 all restaurants are serving hamburgers, double hamburgers, double cheeseburgers and actually announced for 2012 triple chickenburgers without tomatoes."
wouldnt you call these missing tomatoes a revolution?
I doubt that, and a simple listing of main features of MMO's of the last 6-7 years laid next to a listing of main features of older MMO's would show this easily enough, that there's quite a wide range of features that can be seen and found in those later MMO's as well.
That you might not like most of those features and that the MMO's that have them may feel the same to you, doesn't change the fact that the feature list is still there. But that's what I think it's really about, a matter of taste: the features that you don't like don't even register in your awareness of them, for the simple reason that you don't care about them. Translation: you want to see a return or innovation in the features that you care about, features and innovations that fall outside of that range may be there but they don't count (at least to you).
Or in your analogy: of course you'll say that there's no choice in those new menu cards if you're only looking at the hamburger page, because you don't like those new menus and dish variations that can be found on the other pages.
The ease with which predictions are made on these forums: Fratman: "I'm saying Spring 2012 at the earliest [for TOR release]. Anyone still clinging to 2011 is deluding themself at this point."
i miss the conflicts, the trains, the weird pathing, the spawn competition, the corpseruns, the killsteelers, the twinks, the buff beggers, the xp-loss, the failed tricky pulls, and dying hard 1oo times trying to solo this damn red dragon because it has to be possible, ... the big drama is gone baby.
You'll notice that EQ recently launched a new progression server and from all accounts its been pretty popular, wish EA would smarten up as well.
how do you get onto this progression server?
Just reactive your EQ account and make a character on one of the progression servers. I'm on Fippy Darkpaw personally, but there is a second one they made due to overcrowding, but I can't recall it's name. It's Vulak-something.
You'll notice that EQ recently launched a new progression server and from all accounts its been pretty popular, wish EA would smarten up as well.
True, and also a point I'd want to bring into attention. There is an oldschool MMO, that has and the mechanics from the start that people loved and the population that's needed for a healthy community: the EQ progression servers. I'm willing to bet though that a lot of the MMO drifters on this site that keep complaining about how good the old MMO's were and how bad the current ones, aren't all playing on that server, far from even. Instead my guess - I can be wrong but I doubt it - is that most of those are still drifting and MMO homeless.
Even if there's an MMORPG out there that has everything that they were looking for in those older MMO's.
True enough, there are some opportunities to go "back to the old school games" --- so that's the answer then, Maverick?
We don't deserve NEW technology and NEW graphic capabilities and NEW communication integrated, but the Themepark-riders do?
You realize that is borderline prejudice, right? "you like X, Y, and Z features from MMO's? go back to games made 10+ years ago. No new flavor for you. Only people who like A, B, and C features get to have new games. Tough Sh!t."
"you like different kinds of food? then go back to the 80s! today, we only serve pizza. if you complain about it, you're an annoying negative punk who doesn't deserve to eat well."
and you wonder why we are bitter and why the two gamestyles have become, in a sense, polarized enemies?
This is not a troll, flame, or anything else worth banning me over. It is simply my pure opinion, and I have a right to share it.
True, and also a point I'd want to bring into attention. There is an oldschool MMO, that has and the mechanics from the start that people loved and the population that's needed for a healthy community: the EQ progression servers. I'm willing to bet though that a lot of the MMO drifters on this site that keep complaining about how good the old MMO's were and how bad the current ones, aren't all playing on that server, far from even. Instead my guess - I can be wrong but I doubt it - is that most of those are still drifting and MMO homeless.
nice advise, but unfortunately your assumption is wrong. they ruined EQ1 gameplay about 5 expansions ago, via adjusting it to the unholy paradigms of the modern MMO as much as they could. if i remember right, EQ1 was finally destroyed anytime around 2006. the progression server is far away from pre-PoK gameplay, heck its even worse than the next 3 expansions after PoK.
sad but true. and thats why i have no hope for EQ3 either. Smedley will not bring us back a better EQ1, no chance.
nice advise, but unfortunately your assumption is wrong. they ruined EQ1 gameplay about 5 expansions ago, via adjusting it to the unholy paradigms of the modern MMO as much as they could. if i remember right, EQ1 was finally destroyed anytime around 2006.
I've played on the EQ progression server, as far as I could determine it resembles and feels like more than 90% how old pre-Luclin EQ played.
Originally posted by mm0wiggins
True enough, there are some opportunities to go "back to the old school games" --- so that's the answer then, Maverick?
We don't deserve NEW technology and NEW graphic capabilities and NEW communication integrated, but the Themepark-riders do?
You realize that is borderline prejudice, right? "you like X, Y, and Z features from MMO's? go back to games made 10+ years ago. No new flavor for you. Only people who like A, B, and C features get to have new games. Tough Sh!t."
"you like different kinds of food? then go back to the 80s! today, we only serve pizza. if you complain about it, you're an annoying negative punk who doesn't deserve to eat well."
and you wonder why we are bitter and why the two gamestyles have become, in a sense, polarized enemies?
Ok, let me sum this up.
You don't like how the new AAA MMO's are because they're too much of one design philosophy.
You don't like how the non-AAA MMO's are because even if they're different, they're not AAA.
You don't like to play the old MMORPG's because even if they've all kept changing and progressing with new features and mechanics, either they went into a wrong direction or because they're not like how they were in the beginning.
You also don't like to play the old MMORPG's like how they were at their first years because they don't have those new features and technology and graphics of modern MMO's.
So, to summarise: you want an MMORPG that can't be anything lower than AAA, that offers exactly the same kind of features and gameplay that the older MMO's offered, but also with new technology and features, but not in such a way that you can't enjoy that older MMO-style of gameplay.
I can see now how the people that have this kind of requirements and limitations keep drifting and MMO homeless. From those requirements I can only see EVE Online, ArcheAge or WoD satisfy them, and even of those 3 I have my doubts that it'll really satisfy them.
The ease with which predictions are made on these forums: Fratman: "I'm saying Spring 2012 at the earliest [for TOR release]. Anyone still clinging to 2011 is deluding themself at this point."
Actually I want something more akin to an asheron's call sandbox game that uses the current technologies etc. and isn't full loot pvp. Whoever came up with the idea that sandboxes have to be full out pvp with no pve option needs to plug the hole in his head.
Recent sandboxes havent been niche failure games because a sandbox has to be a niche game that isnt popular. They have been niche failure games because when you take the intersection of sandbox and hardcore pvp you get a fail number of people willing to play it.
Have a sandbox game that is as approachable as wow with the flexibility of asheron's call and a similarly complex loot system with recent graphics and you have a real winner.
-----
I despise the whole race to max level so you can play the "real game" which is a very limited content gear grind via a small number of dungeons and raids in linear succession model.
you got me wrong Maverick. we are not talking about features. features dont matter, and they alone make no MMO. i am talking about paradigms or design-principles of the modern MMO:
- extreme high linearity focused on quests and story
- extreme refining and predictability of encounters
- extreme accessability, focus on casual friendlyness and easy soloability
- less need for tactical planning in combats and strategic planning in character development at all
- fast-paced action-oriented combat (introducing shorter lasting trash-fights, shorter and castrated skills and much less HP of trash-mobs with less room for tacticl versatility)
- conflict free PVE (e.g. by avoiding competition in open dungeons via massive instancing, and faster respawn rates in general)
these are the 6 nails in the coffin of the MMORPG (also EQ1 current client changed alot into this direction). they define the theme-park aka wow-clone, imho. its dead, until some provider got the balls to change the paradigms.
@UsualDaNeriak: ??I think you read my comments wrong. You were talking about how EQ had changed, I was talking specifically about the recently opened EQ progression servers, where they went back to how EQ played in its first years, before any expansion. The EQ progression servers are almost exactly how EQ was when it first launched, and they'll slowly progress those 2 new servers further every few months with first the Ruins of Kunark expansion, then Scars of Velious and so on, by player majority vote.
I've played on those new EQ progression "retro" servers, it felt almost exactly how EQ felt in 2000, especially since you had a huge population of players who also just started playing on those new servers.
So if oldschool MMO gameplay is your stiel, then it can be found.
The ease with which predictions are made on these forums: Fratman: "I'm saying Spring 2012 at the earliest [for TOR release]. Anyone still clinging to 2011 is deluding themself at this point."
i did not play the progressions server, because SoE stated clearly, its not the old gameplay, its the current client with current mechanics. just limited to the old zones. and i know these mechanics up to expansion 8 or so. perhaps you and me got a different understanding about gamemechanics.
and even then. old EQ was great, but we also had a lot of complaints. the problem is: when WoW and EQ2 tried to solve the issues and develop something better, they made things even worse. and since then everybody cloned the mistakes. so going back to old games is not a solution. but we could learn lessons out of the old games. what was good and what was made wrong when trying to fix the issues.
So, to summarise: you want an MMORPG that can't be anything lower than AAA, that offers exactly the same kind of features and gameplay that the older MMO's offered, but also with new technology and features, but not in such a way that you can't enjoy that older MMO-style of gameplay.
I can see now how the people that have this kind of requirements and limitations keep drifting and MMO homeless. From those requirements I can only see EVE Online, ArcheAge or WoD satisfy them, and even of those 3 I have my doubts that it'll really satisfy them.
*thumbs up*
I think you were trying to insult me in some sort of sarcastic way (as we both know by now, you and I love our bickering ) but actually, I think you were pretty close to the mark here.
EVE online, Archeage and WOD indeed will be (and in EVE's case, already is) the games for me. .. hmm.. 3 games to choose from, whilst all the themeparks out there have more games than I can count on fingers and toes... yup. That's fair!
:-) but seriously... I don't think it's too much to ask for some AAA quality sandbox-based MMORPGs to get in the works, not as long as it's ok for a bunch of AAA souless themeparks to be produced too.
Wonderous variety is better than no variety.
This is not a troll, flame, or anything else worth banning me over. It is simply my pure opinion, and I have a right to share it.
@UsualDaNeriak: ??I think you read my comments wrong. You were talking about how EQ had changed, I was talking specifically about the recently opened EQ progression servers, where they went back to how EQ played in its first years, before any expansion. The EQ progression servers are almost exactly how EQ was when it first launched, and they'll slowly progress those 2 new servers further every few months with first the Ruins of Kunark expansion, then Scars of Velious and so on, by player majority vote.
I've played on those new EQ progression "retro" servers, it felt almost exactly how EQ felt in 2000, especially since you had a huge population of players who also just started playing on those new servers.
So if oldschool MMO gameplay is your stiel, then it can be found.
Repeated since it seems to have been missed by everyone! ->
The new EQ progression server is EXTREMELY different than original EQ was at its launch. I'm going to give an example because people seem to keep ignoring this point ><. Monk's fist dmg in original EQ maxed out at something like 14/30 depending on race. http://www.monkly-business.net/index.php?pageid=abilities (Link is for confirmation that this is the correct dmg/delay ratio for original Monk fist dmg at 50). Now on the new progression server Monk's fists are doing 20dmg at a 26 delay and it gets much much better at 60. This makes them define Over Powered on this progression server. Also since Fippy launched with 500+ monks in and around Freeport you can safely assume people know about the change and will be playing through the original content with a huge handicap.
This is just one of MANY mechanics that have been changed on the new progression server. Due to this it no longer resembles the Classic EQ many of us love and remember so fondly. The challenge of the raid content is almost nullified by the changes made. Shadow Knight's doing 2k harm touches at 50 = bring 4 - 5 SK's with you on a Naggy raid and watch him get hit for 30% of his health in about 3 seconds! Oh yea that's classic for sure ><!
If you need/want more examples of what has been changed I can try to provide them with links to old data describing how the game worked in its prime. Otherwise, I will be content in that this amount of info is sufficient to anyone thinking about jumping on the new progression server.
I think you were trying to insult me in some sort of sarcastic way (as we both know by now, you and I love our bickering ) but actually, I think you were pretty close to the mark here.
Hey! I disagree. I wasn't trying to insult, only to lead the arguments you gave to their logical conclusion
EVE online, Archeage and WOD indeed will be (and in EVE's case, already is) the games for me. .. hmm.. 3 games to choose from, whilst all the themeparks out there have more games than I can count on fingers and toes... yup. That's fair!
:-) but seriously... I don't think it's too much to ask for some AAA quality sandbox-based MMORPGs to get in the works, not as long as it's ok for a bunch of AAA souless themeparks to be produced too.
Wonderous variety is better than no variety.
I agree on the variety, I disagree on the requirements that variety has to be sandbox and AAA per se. I mean, I get that fans of the sandbox genre would like to see more AAA sandbox titles, the more the better - heck, I've said myself often that imo the best MMO's will be those that succeed in synergising themepark and sandbox elements into 1 MMO.
But I wouldn't just dismiss the MMO titles that are different and innovative but maybe not sandbox or AAA, like GW2, TSW, Firefall or Blade & Soul.
Variety doesn't need only to be found in the pure sandbox or pure WoW-styled themepark genre.
Originally posted by Vahrane
The new EQ progression server is EXTREMELY different than original EQ was at its launch. I'm going to give an example because people seem to keep ignoring this point ><. Monk's fist dmg in original EQ maxed out at something like 14/30 depending on race. http://www.monkly-business.net/index.php?pageid=abilities (Link is for confirmation that this is the correct dmg/delay ratio for original Monk fist dmg at 50). Now on the new progression server Monk's fists are doing 20dmg at a 26 delay and it gets much much better at 60. This makes them define Over Powered on this progression server. Also since Fippy launched with 500+ monks in and around Freeport you can safely assume people know about the change and will be playing through the original content with a huge handicap.
This is just one of MANY mechanics that have been changed on the new progression server. Due to this it no longer resembles the Classic EQ many of us love and remember so fondly. The challenge of the raid content is almost nullified by the changes made.
I disagree. While I get what you're saying and I'm sure there will be plenty of differences in the details (for 1 example: leveling to level cap doesn't take the 1500+ hours that it could take 10-11 years ago), when I walked through the zones, and played the game and grouped with others, the game felt and played like how it was from my memory.
There are quite some differences, everyone visiting the revamped Freeport will see it instantly, but as a whole to me the EQ progression server felt close enough to my initial EQ experience to trigger a pleasantly surprising deja vue feeling. Of course, having thousands of players level alongside you makes a major difference as well, after all MMO's come to live around their communities.
The ease with which predictions are made on these forums: Fratman: "I'm saying Spring 2012 at the earliest [for TOR release]. Anyone still clinging to 2011 is deluding themself at this point."
I agree on the variety, I disagree on the requirements that variety has to be sandbox and AAA per se. I mean, I get that fans of the sandbox genre would like to see more AAA sandbox titles, the more the better - heck, I've said myself often that imo the best MMO's will be those that succeed in synergising themepark and sandbox elements into 1 MMO.
But I wouldn't just dismiss the MMO titles that are different and innovative but maybe not sandbox or AAA, like GW2, TSW, Firefall or Blade & Soul.
Variety doesn't need only to be found in the pure sandbox or pure WoW-styled themepark genre.
I can agree with this. I didn't mean, though, that variety means sandbox only, but rather, just not ALL themepark AAA's.
On the contrary, I am looking forward to Blade & Soul, TSW, and GW2 just as much as I'm looking forward to WoD and.... well, I wanted to say Archage, but tbh, on paper it looks great. Sandbox candy delight... but by the many videos released of gameplay and class/combat mechanics, it just looks and feels so... familiar.... not that familiar is necessarily always bad, but, I think preferencially there's something about archage that just looks boring too me.
Let's just say, if WoW decided to impliment crops and farms, it wouldn't be enough to make me go back...
This is not a troll, flame, or anything else worth banning me over. It is simply my pure opinion, and I have a right to share it.
well, I wanted to say Archage, but tbh, on paper it looks great. Sandbox candy delight... but by the many videos released of gameplay and class/combat mechanics, it just looks and feels so... familiar.... not that familiar is necessarily always bad, but, I think preferencially there's something about archage that just looks boring too me.
i am sceptical, too. i read the feature list and i see, this is going to become a sandbox. but if i watch the videos, it often looks like a theme-parks gameplay. well, its going to become a "sandpark", so who wonders. as with every MMO, i am fully convinced, that i cant judge a game without playing it myself, because my criteria are not features. i am looking for specific paradigms or design principles as listed above, like: linearity, refinement, tactical & strategic challenge, versatility in skills & combat, conflicts, freedom, ...
You don't like how the new AAA MMO's are because they're too much of one design philosophy.
You don't like how the non-AAA MMO's are because even if they're different, they're not AAA.
You don't like to play the old MMORPG's because even if they've all kept changing and progressing with new features and mechanics, either they went into a wrong direction or because they're not like how they were in the beginning.
You also don't like to play the old MMORPG's like how they were at their first years because they don't have those new features and technology and graphics of modern MMO's.
So, to summarise: you want an MMORPG that can't be anything lower than AAA, that offers exactly the same kind of features and gameplay that the older MMO's offered, but also with new technology and features, but not in such a way that you can't enjoy that older MMO-style of gameplay.
"joyless enterprises"...???...for the player or the companies?...this whole web site is about that which you find not good...I have found many MMOGs to be quite delightfull, while others...so so...these online worlds are basically how you make them...Probably why they have lasting appeal...
I work at a mindless, soul-crushing factory job, but I can come home and log on...and I'm transported to a world where I can attain power/fame/goals/achievements...is it really that "joyless"...it's either that or drink a case of Heineken and go "Postal"...
Comments
I think this brings up a very important point. You have to consider a) How long it takes to put together an AAA title, and b) how much money it costs. These two things by their very nature are going to slow down innovation, it's as simple as that.
With so much money involved, any risks taken need to be minimized. Revolution doesn't happen overnight, it takes time. You have to take what is working and build upon it, move it to the next step. The steps are going to be small, and they're going to be a long time apart, but they are there. We're now just starting to see the results of what has been going on for the last 12 years.
Let's take a look at the list of titles mentioned here:
ArchAge: Amazing graphics (Not revolutionary, but not all games manage it), and the promise of a lot of Sandbox elements intertwined with the themepark gameplay the majority of players are accustomed too.
Tera: Evolving in a different direction than most, this game with give us MORE action oriented gameplay. Good for some, bad for others, but it is at least a change.
GW2: Dynamic Events. Hopefully this will be a step beyond the usual 'public quests' and will go further than Rift. B2P? Meh. Most games are ending up F2P anyway now, making them B2P for early adopters.
TSW: Personal feelings about the developer aside, there is a lot going for this game. We're moving away from classes and levels, quite a step for some people. We have the 3 factions many have been whining for. I love the talk of quests that will have to be figured out by the community outside of game.
WoD: double-meh We know next to nothing about this game, other than the ip and the developer who happens to run a niche game and may or may not be able to step it up from there.
The point is, things are moving, and they have been for a long time. If you're not happy with the progress, I'd blame your own unrealistic expectations.
Yeah I agree that Rift, Allods, WAR, AoC, etc. etc. etc. are different from WoW for sure. My argument is that they are not different enough from WoW to make me want to play them over WoW.
WoW offers just about all the features they do and more. And let's be honest, they are pretty similar. In all those games you spend the vast majority of your time doing the same things you would be doing in WoW. Get quests, kill monsters, level up, find group for dungeon, PvP in battlegrounds, blah blah blah. They just have minor differences like in AoC the combat system in combo based, in Rift there are ...rifts, in WAR they have a crappy verison of RvR. But in the end, they are very much like WoW.
Now look at how different the old game were from one another:
UO: Sandbox game, time can be spent in player generated areas, getting money for houses and such, decorating your property, PvP with full loot, etc. etc.
EQ: Early themepark game, I consider it the precursor to WoW. Time is usually spent grinding exp in a group, dungeon crawling or raiding.
DAoC: Really unique RvR game. You can spend your time fighting monsters EQ style, or participating in full on huge, meaningful RvR battles.
They were all so different, and yet all good in their own ways. Now, the quest based paradigm dominates MMORPGs, that's all there is.
Finally, I do agree that there are a lot of titles that look promising, so hopefully these arguments will all be a thing of the past soon!
Are you team Azeroth, team Tyria, or team Jacob?
Great question, here's the answer.
First and foremost, most of those titles are long since dead, and MMORPG's just aren't fun in a small scale setting as for me its the people who make the game.
But besides that, the next major issue is that most older games are just a shadow of their former glory. They been given too many unwanted expansions and attempted to incorporate too many modern features that have changed them into something they never were during their glory days.
I'll take DAOC for example, it was pretty much ruined by the TOA expansion, and finished off in most people's books by the New Frontiers. Toss in Catacombs, horses, fast teleoports, reduced downtime between fights, and huge uptick in soloability (and faster leveling) and trust me on this, its just not the same game at all.
There was talk about creating a new Origins server without all the above mentioned expansions and I think it would have been very popular for a year or two, but EA basically terminated that effort and put the Devs on the Warhammer team which probably was the deathnell for whatever hope we had for a return to the old ways.
You'll notice that EQ recently launched a new progression server and from all accounts its been pretty popular, wish EA would smarten up as well.
"True friends stab you in the front." | Oscar Wilde
"I need to finish" - Christian Wolff: The Accountant
Just trying to live long enough to play a new, released MMORPG, playing New Worlds atm
Fools find no pleasure in understanding but delight in airing their own opinions. Pvbs 18:2, NIV
Don't just play games, inhabit virtual worlds™
"This is the most intelligent, well qualified and articulate response to a post I have ever seen on these forums. It's a shame most people here won't have the attention span to read past the second line." - Anon
EQ's new progression server is also a bastardization of what original EQ was much like your example of how DAoC is no longer the same game. The emulated EQ servers are closer to what original EQ was but still they have problems of their own as well as lower populations than live servers.
your picture is a bit wrong:
its more like: "When i went in a restaurant in 2001, i could order steak, fish, sphaegtti, pizza, heck even vegetarian. now in 2011 all restaurants are serving hamburgers, double hamburgers, double cheeseburgers and actually announced for 2012 triple chickenburgers without tomatoes."
wouldnt you call these missing tomatoes a revolution?
played: Everquest I (6 years), EVE (3 years)
months: EQII, Vanguard, Siedler Online, SWTOR, Guild Wars 2
weeks: WoW, Shaiya, Darkfall, Florensia, Entropia, Aion, Lotro, Fallen Earth, Uncharted Waters
days: DDO, RoM, FFXIV, STO, Atlantica, PotBS, Maestia, WAR, AoC, Gods&Heroes, Cultures, RIFT, Forsaken World, Allodds
You still haven't given an MMO that you can do everything in as you say, please tell me an example about what you call everything.
If it's not broken, you are not innovating.
True, and also a point I'd want to bring into attention. There is an oldschool MMO, that has and the mechanics from the start that people loved and the population that's needed for a healthy community: the EQ progression servers. I'm willing to bet though that a lot of the MMO drifters on this site that keep complaining about how good the old MMO's were and how bad the current ones, aren't all playing on that server, far from even. Instead my guess - I can be wrong but I doubt it - is that most of those are still drifting and MMO homeless.
Even if there's an MMORPG out there that has everything that they were looking for in those older MMO's.
I doubt that, and a simple listing of main features of MMO's of the last 6-7 years laid next to a listing of main features of older MMO's would show this easily enough, that there's quite a wide range of features that can be seen and found in those later MMO's as well.
That you might not like most of those features and that the MMO's that have them may feel the same to you, doesn't change the fact that the feature list is still there. But that's what I think it's really about, a matter of taste: the features that you don't like don't even register in your awareness of them, for the simple reason that you don't care about them. Translation: you want to see a return or innovation in the features that you care about, features and innovations that fall outside of that range may be there but they don't count (at least to you).
Or in your analogy: of course you'll say that there's no choice in those new menu cards if you're only looking at the hamburger page, because you don't like those new menus and dish variations that can be found on the other pages.
The ACTUAL size of MMORPG worlds: a comparison list between MMO's
The ease with which predictions are made on these forums:
Fratman: "I'm saying Spring 2012 at the earliest [for TOR release]. Anyone still clinging to 2011 is deluding themself at this point."
how do you get onto this progression server?
*singing* Can't buy me loooove.
Vault-Tec analysts have concluded that the odds of worldwide nuclear armaggeddon this decade are 17,143,762... to 1.
Just reactive your EQ account and make a character on one of the progression servers. I'm on Fippy Darkpaw personally, but there is a second one they made due to overcrowding, but I can't recall it's name. It's Vulak-something.
True enough, there are some opportunities to go "back to the old school games" --- so that's the answer then, Maverick?
We don't deserve NEW technology and NEW graphic capabilities and NEW communication integrated, but the Themepark-riders do?
You realize that is borderline prejudice, right? "you like X, Y, and Z features from MMO's? go back to games made 10+ years ago. No new flavor for you. Only people who like A, B, and C features get to have new games. Tough Sh!t."
"you like different kinds of food? then go back to the 80s! today, we only serve pizza. if you complain about it, you're an annoying negative punk who doesn't deserve to eat well."
and you wonder why we are bitter and why the two gamestyles have become, in a sense, polarized enemies?
This is not a troll, flame, or anything else worth banning me over. It is simply my pure opinion, and I have a right to share it.
nice advise, but unfortunately your assumption is wrong. they ruined EQ1 gameplay about 5 expansions ago, via adjusting it to the unholy paradigms of the modern MMO as much as they could. if i remember right, EQ1 was finally destroyed anytime around 2006. the progression server is far away from pre-PoK gameplay, heck its even worse than the next 3 expansions after PoK.
sad but true. and thats why i have no hope for EQ3 either. Smedley will not bring us back a better EQ1, no chance.
played: Everquest I (6 years), EVE (3 years)
months: EQII, Vanguard, Siedler Online, SWTOR, Guild Wars 2
weeks: WoW, Shaiya, Darkfall, Florensia, Entropia, Aion, Lotro, Fallen Earth, Uncharted Waters
days: DDO, RoM, FFXIV, STO, Atlantica, PotBS, Maestia, WAR, AoC, Gods&Heroes, Cultures, RIFT, Forsaken World, Allodds
I've played on the EQ progression server, as far as I could determine it resembles and feels like more than 90% how old pre-Luclin EQ played.
Ok, let me sum this up.
You don't like how the new AAA MMO's are because they're too much of one design philosophy.
You don't like how the non-AAA MMO's are because even if they're different, they're not AAA.
You don't like to play the old MMORPG's because even if they've all kept changing and progressing with new features and mechanics, either they went into a wrong direction or because they're not like how they were in the beginning.
You also don't like to play the old MMORPG's like how they were at their first years because they don't have those new features and technology and graphics of modern MMO's.
So, to summarise: you want an MMORPG that can't be anything lower than AAA, that offers exactly the same kind of features and gameplay that the older MMO's offered, but also with new technology and features, but not in such a way that you can't enjoy that older MMO-style of gameplay.
I can see now how the people that have this kind of requirements and limitations keep drifting and MMO homeless. From those requirements I can only see EVE Online, ArcheAge or WoD satisfy them, and even of those 3 I have my doubts that it'll really satisfy them.
The ACTUAL size of MMORPG worlds: a comparison list between MMO's
The ease with which predictions are made on these forums:
Fratman: "I'm saying Spring 2012 at the earliest [for TOR release]. Anyone still clinging to 2011 is deluding themself at this point."
Actually I want something more akin to an asheron's call sandbox game that uses the current technologies etc. and isn't full loot pvp. Whoever came up with the idea that sandboxes have to be full out pvp with no pve option needs to plug the hole in his head.
Recent sandboxes havent been niche failure games because a sandbox has to be a niche game that isnt popular. They have been niche failure games because when you take the intersection of sandbox and hardcore pvp you get a fail number of people willing to play it.
Have a sandbox game that is as approachable as wow with the flexibility of asheron's call and a similarly complex loot system with recent graphics and you have a real winner.
-----
I despise the whole race to max level so you can play the "real game" which is a very limited content gear grind via a small number of dungeons and raids in linear succession model.
you got me wrong Maverick. we are not talking about features. features dont matter, and they alone make no MMO. i am talking about paradigms or design-principles of the modern MMO:
- extreme high linearity focused on quests and story
- extreme refining and predictability of encounters
- extreme accessability, focus on casual friendlyness and easy soloability
- less need for tactical planning in combats and strategic planning in character development at all
- fast-paced action-oriented combat (introducing shorter lasting trash-fights, shorter and castrated skills and much less HP of trash-mobs with less room for tacticl versatility)
- conflict free PVE (e.g. by avoiding competition in open dungeons via massive instancing, and faster respawn rates in general)
these are the 6 nails in the coffin of the MMORPG (also EQ1 current client changed alot into this direction). they define the theme-park aka wow-clone, imho. its dead, until some provider got the balls to change the paradigms.
played: Everquest I (6 years), EVE (3 years)
months: EQII, Vanguard, Siedler Online, SWTOR, Guild Wars 2
weeks: WoW, Shaiya, Darkfall, Florensia, Entropia, Aion, Lotro, Fallen Earth, Uncharted Waters
days: DDO, RoM, FFXIV, STO, Atlantica, PotBS, Maestia, WAR, AoC, Gods&Heroes, Cultures, RIFT, Forsaken World, Allodds
@UsualDaNeriak: ??I think you read my comments wrong. You were talking about how EQ had changed, I was talking specifically about the recently opened EQ progression servers, where they went back to how EQ played in its first years, before any expansion. The EQ progression servers are almost exactly how EQ was when it first launched, and they'll slowly progress those 2 new servers further every few months with first the Ruins of Kunark expansion, then Scars of Velious and so on, by player majority vote.
I've played on those new EQ progression "retro" servers, it felt almost exactly how EQ felt in 2000, especially since you had a huge population of players who also just started playing on those new servers.
So if oldschool MMO gameplay is your stiel, then it can be found.
The ACTUAL size of MMORPG worlds: a comparison list between MMO's
The ease with which predictions are made on these forums:
Fratman: "I'm saying Spring 2012 at the earliest [for TOR release]. Anyone still clinging to 2011 is deluding themself at this point."
i did not play the progressions server, because SoE stated clearly, its not the old gameplay, its the current client with current mechanics. just limited to the old zones. and i know these mechanics up to expansion 8 or so. perhaps you and me got a different understanding about gamemechanics.
and even then. old EQ was great, but we also had a lot of complaints. the problem is: when WoW and EQ2 tried to solve the issues and develop something better, they made things even worse. and since then everybody cloned the mistakes. so going back to old games is not a solution. but we could learn lessons out of the old games. what was good and what was made wrong when trying to fix the issues.
played: Everquest I (6 years), EVE (3 years)
months: EQII, Vanguard, Siedler Online, SWTOR, Guild Wars 2
weeks: WoW, Shaiya, Darkfall, Florensia, Entropia, Aion, Lotro, Fallen Earth, Uncharted Waters
days: DDO, RoM, FFXIV, STO, Atlantica, PotBS, Maestia, WAR, AoC, Gods&Heroes, Cultures, RIFT, Forsaken World, Allodds
*thumbs up*
I think you were trying to insult me in some sort of sarcastic way (as we both know by now, you and I love our bickering
) but actually, I think you were pretty close to the mark here.
EVE online, Archeage and WOD indeed will be (and in EVE's case, already is) the games for me. .. hmm.. 3 games to choose from, whilst all the themeparks out there have more games than I can count on fingers and toes... yup. That's fair!
:-) but seriously... I don't think it's too much to ask for some AAA quality sandbox-based MMORPGs to get in the works, not as long as it's ok for a bunch of AAA souless themeparks to be produced too.
Wonderous variety is better than no variety.
This is not a troll, flame, or anything else worth banning me over. It is simply my pure opinion, and I have a right to share it.
Repeated since it seems to have been missed by everyone! ->
The new EQ progression server is EXTREMELY different than original EQ was at its launch. I'm going to give an example because people seem to keep ignoring this point ><. Monk's fist dmg in original EQ maxed out at something like 14/30 depending on race. http://www.monkly-business.net/index.php?pageid=abilities (Link is for confirmation that this is the correct dmg/delay ratio for original Monk fist dmg at 50). Now on the new progression server Monk's fists are doing 20dmg at a 26 delay and it gets much much better at 60. This makes them define Over Powered on this progression server. Also since Fippy launched with 500+ monks in and around Freeport you can safely assume people know about the change and will be playing through the original content with a huge handicap.
This is just one of MANY mechanics that have been changed on the new progression server. Due to this it no longer resembles the Classic EQ many of us love and remember so fondly. The challenge of the raid content is almost nullified by the changes made. Shadow Knight's doing 2k harm touches at 50 = bring 4 - 5 SK's with you on a Naggy raid and watch him get hit for 30% of his health in about 3 seconds! Oh yea that's classic for sure ><!
If you need/want more examples of what has been changed I can try to provide them with links to old data describing how the game worked in its prime. Otherwise, I will be content in that this amount of info is sufficient to anyone thinking about jumping on the new progression server.
List of changes made -> http://forums.station.sony.com/eq/posts/list.m?topic_id=173099
I agree on the variety, I disagree on the requirements that variety has to be sandbox and AAA per se. I mean, I get that fans of the sandbox genre would like to see more AAA sandbox titles, the more the better - heck, I've said myself often that imo the best MMO's will be those that succeed in synergising themepark and sandbox elements into 1 MMO.
But I wouldn't just dismiss the MMO titles that are different and innovative but maybe not sandbox or AAA, like GW2, TSW, Firefall or Blade & Soul.
Variety doesn't need only to be found in the pure sandbox or pure WoW-styled themepark genre.
I disagree. While I get what you're saying and I'm sure there will be plenty of differences in the details (for 1 example: leveling to level cap doesn't take the 1500+ hours that it could take 10-11 years ago), when I walked through the zones, and played the game and grouped with others, the game felt and played like how it was from my memory.
There are quite some differences, everyone visiting the revamped Freeport will see it instantly, but as a whole to me the EQ progression server felt close enough to my initial EQ experience to trigger a pleasantly surprising deja vue feeling. Of course, having thousands of players level alongside you makes a major difference as well, after all MMO's come to live around their communities.
The ACTUAL size of MMORPG worlds: a comparison list between MMO's
The ease with which predictions are made on these forums:
Fratman: "I'm saying Spring 2012 at the earliest [for TOR release]. Anyone still clinging to 2011 is deluding themself at this point."
I can agree with this. I didn't mean, though, that variety means sandbox only, but rather, just not ALL themepark AAA's.
On the contrary, I am looking forward to Blade & Soul, TSW, and GW2 just as much as I'm looking forward to WoD and.... well, I wanted to say Archage, but tbh, on paper it looks great. Sandbox candy delight... but by the many videos released of gameplay and class/combat mechanics, it just looks and feels so... familiar.... not that familiar is necessarily always bad, but, I think preferencially there's something about archage that just looks boring too me.
Let's just say, if WoW decided to impliment crops and farms, it wouldn't be enough to make me go back...
This is not a troll, flame, or anything else worth banning me over. It is simply my pure opinion, and I have a right to share it.
i am sceptical, too. i read the feature list and i see, this is going to become a sandbox. but if i watch the videos, it often looks like a theme-parks gameplay. well, its going to become a "sandpark", so who wonders. as with every MMO, i am fully convinced, that i cant judge a game without playing it myself, because my criteria are not features. i am looking for specific paradigms or design principles as listed above, like: linearity, refinement, tactical & strategic challenge, versatility in skills & combat, conflicts, freedom, ...
played: Everquest I (6 years), EVE (3 years)
months: EQII, Vanguard, Siedler Online, SWTOR, Guild Wars 2
weeks: WoW, Shaiya, Darkfall, Florensia, Entropia, Aion, Lotro, Fallen Earth, Uncharted Waters
days: DDO, RoM, FFXIV, STO, Atlantica, PotBS, Maestia, WAR, AoC, Gods&Heroes, Cultures, RIFT, Forsaken World, Allodds
*clap*
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*thunderous applause*
*standing ovation*
"joyless enterprises"...???...for the player or the companies?...this whole web site is about that which you find not good...I have found many MMOGs to be quite delightfull, while others...so so...these online worlds are basically how you make them...Probably why they have lasting appeal...
I work at a mindless, soul-crushing factory job, but I can come home and log on...and I'm transported to a world where I can attain power/fame/goals/achievements...is it really that "joyless"...it's either that or drink a case of Heineken and go "Postal"...