When I played Wurm, someone stole my ore out of my fire. I was thrilled by the complexity of the crafting & harvesting. I spent my first week looking around and making food and water. I spent my second week trying to make nails, while everyone else spent their time preventing me. This game is like EvE where the vet community eagerly awaits the new player, and squeal like pigs when they ruin the new gamers experience with the game.
I know Pathfinder is promising to be a "themepark/sandbox hybrid" like you are saying. As far as how they actually implement it though, I have no clue.
I've always found that a lot of influence could be taken from single player sandbox games like GTA, Jak 2 + 3, and The Godfather. Where you have a story driven series of missions that you can hit in whatever order you want, and can take time off to just mess with the world and have fun. The Godfather, which I really liked had it where there were hundreds of enemy buisinesses and wharehouses owned by other families (factions) and you had to grudgingly take control of them. I think this sort of influence progression on the NPC world would be a sweet idea in an MMO.
As much as I enjoy both types of MMO, I have to say that my preference is for the Sandbox.
I guess for me it comes down to how much freedom and impact I can have or feel I have on a world versus how much fun and effort it is to do these things.
Sometimes I just feel like killing things.. So a theme park like... Oh I don't know, lets say Vindictus, is great fun. I'll just run around cutting a bloody swath through whatever dungeons I play that day.
Sometimes I want more. Whether it's building up or destroying empires. So I'll play EVE and deal with the consequences of my actions or the actions of others.
Wildstar is actually pretty interesting to me because it seeks to combine both the Theme park and the Sandbox. I'm curious to see how they will do this and how well it will play out. Cheap as I am, I might have to pick up Wildstar and pay for the subscription until I can start buying CREED with ease, if I enjoy the game. I'm especially interested in player built cities and that one PvP mode where clans build fortresses and weapons to fight against each other. The story also looks fairly interesting and on the dark comedy side of things which is always a plus.
I'm surprised there's not much discussion of Wurm Online here.
After all it was co-created by the Minecraft guy.
When I played Wurm, someone stole my ore out of my fire. I was thrilled by the complexity of the crafting & harvesting. I spent my first week looking around and making food and water. I spent my second week trying to make nails, while everyone else spent their time preventing me. This game is like EvE where the vet community eagerly awaits the new player, and squeal like pigs when they ruin the new gamers experience with the game.
Did it ever dawn on you that is was your fault someone stole your ore?
Try building a one room shack and put a crappy lock on the door. To much hand holding in mmos has created problems for you and many other players.
Take responsibility for the security of your ore and nails or go back to a themepark.
edit- I guarantee no vet of wurm gave a rats ass about your nails or ore. Sounds like to me you were squatting on someone property. If that was the case and you were squatting on my property or on the edge without asking nicely and discussing terms I wouldn't care about your nails and ore but I would kill you if you didn't understand and move along to another area.
Not necessarily. It depends on what the content is and how it is used. To me, a large part of sandbox is the ability to make choices. Themeparks tend to lead people from one zone to another according to levels and there isn't a whole lot of choices. There may be a few different zones of the same level but once a player is beyond that level those zones are worthless for xp and if a person is below those levels those zones are frequently off limits or insta-death (although I must say GW2 was different on that since if one was above level the player's level was automatically adjusted). Themeparks are also often story driven. There is a beginning and an ending to the story.
A sandbox could potentially have as many quests/missions as a themepark or more, the question is are the quest required and do I have to do them in a certain order? If I can choose how, where, and when I develop my character; create my own storyline for my character; and determine how I'm going to react then have those choices effect me and the world around me then I'd consider that to be more sandbox than themepark.
Then there is also the hybrid. SWG, in it's pre-cu format, is an example of this (NGE became more themepark than sandbox). Although pre-CU was mainly sandbox in which players could determine the build of their character, group with any player no matter the amount of character development, and access content in any order they wanted (as long as they didn't mind dying quickly in some locations); there were areas in SWG known as "themeparks" : Jabba's, rebel, imperial. A player could take breaks from the "themeparks" to do other stuff but the quest in those "themeparks" had to be done in a certain order and completed in order to access certain buildings or parts of buildings.
It is possible to have a sandbox with lots of content just as, unfortunately, it is possible to have a theme park with very little content.
Sandbox should actually have more content than themepark. Take this as an example of a feature: quests (i dont like seeing just terrain, i would like to go on missions and uncover the history of the world) that give fame to particular factions. Since in sandbox you skill up instead of going up in levels so you can freely choose what to be.
It's too bad only small budget developers are making sandbox games.
Sandbox with lots of contents is a Theme Park.
+1 fail at grasping essence of sandbox MMO's.
Advice: play some different types of MMO's besides WoW/themepark MMO's. GL
Originally posted by Kyleran
Edit: In fact, I'd say that if anything really sets most sandboxes apart from themeparks is the ability to control territory, though DAOC was a themepark that managed to emulate this somewhat by encouraging players to take Castles in order to gain control of Darkness falls which was the premier resource source at the time.
DAoC would be more of a sandbox MMO or a hybrid sandbox MMO if players could build castles and keeps all over the world or at least large parts of it, and if those castles could be conquered by other factions.
Territory control is one sandbox aspect, I'd say a heavier emphasis and focus on player crafting and crafted items and an economy that's built on those above looted or raid gear is another. Or player houses/towns/bases/stations that can be built everywhere.
+1 Fail to grasp sandbox.
For me sandbox games should be like www.wurmonline.com only player created in game content. Truly hard core survival experience and freedom with as few boundaries as non game brakingly possible You create you tools and with the tools you create and combine even more. Control teritory, crafting, trading, housing, terraforming or what the heck, destroy everything! Its all optional.
As soon as you start setting restrictions and leading towards developers goals, it becomes something else, themepark.
Sandbox to themepark is a spectrum. No game is a pure sandbox or a pure themepark. There's subjectivity involved when labeling a game. Some features are more sandbox than others, but I can't think of any 1 single feature that MUST be present in a game to be called a sandbox. Some big sandbox features are in-depth crafting, the ability to change the world, the ability to play how you want (significantly different professions, not just "what type of fighter are you?", ow pvp, etc. You don't need any ONE of those features to be called a sandbox, but having them (and others that I haven't listed) make it that much more accurate to call a game a sandbox.
Sandbox to themepark is a spectrum. No game is a pure sandbox or a pure themepark. There's subjectivity involved when labeling a game. Some features are more sandbox than others, but I can't think of any 1 single feature that MUST be present in a game to be called a sandbox. Some big sandbox features are in-depth crafting, the ability to change the world, the ability to play how you want (significantly different professions, not just "what type of fighter are you?", ow pvp, etc. You don't need any ONE of those features to be called a sandbox, but having them (and others that I haven't listed) make it that much more accurate to call a game a sandbox.
Basically, sandbox means less restriction.
Agreed.
Sandbox does not need to mean total freedom.
I would say in a deeper sence its the lack of developer made quests or storyline. Whereas you have to personaly invest time to find your motivation for staying, and a good sandbox game is developed around how freely you can go about any given goal. And what tools are at your disposal for doing so.
I find sandbox games quite fun. I mean, it all depends on what game it is and what you expect to get from it, but it's nice to have a lot of freedom to do what you want and be creative.
I actually don't know what the big difference is between these two? I did play some sandbox games, which I'm assuming are games that offer a lot of freedom to do whatevers.
Originally posted by avaliceheart I actually don't know what the big difference is between these two? I did play some sandbox games, which I'm assuming are games that offer a lot of freedom to do whatevers.
A sandbox game is something similar to GTA5 where you can choose to do as you please in a huge, expansive world; where a player can do eceedingly more creative things than in a linear game.
In a themepark like Call of duty; you are on a strict path, that you follow and can't explore the game world or interact with it other than the strict linear experience allows.
If anything: people enjoy sandbox games more than their lInear counterparts; as evidence shown with GTA5"s $800,000 ,000 in 1 day.
Originally posted by avaliceheart I actually don't know what the big difference is between these two? I did play some sandbox games, which I'm assuming are games that offer a lot of freedom to do whatevers.
A sandbox game is something similar to GTA5 where you can choose to do as you please in a huge, expansive world; where a player can do eceedingly more creative things than in a linear game.
In a themepark like Call of duty; you are on a strict path, that you follow and can't explore the game world or interact with it other than the strict linear experience allows.
If anything: people enjoy sandbox games more than their lInear counterparts; as evidence shown with GTA5"s 800,000 copies sold in 1 day.
800,000? Nonono, More like 13 million copys dude. They made an estimate of 500 million dollars the first day of sales.
I suppose that I enjoy the concept of a hybrid? I absolutely adore having as many options as possible within a fantasy environment restricted only by what makes sense to the lore of that game and doesn't actually break the game by permitting players to do it. For example, I adore world PVP where you can be attacked by anyone at any time...but I also like the idea of some towns frowning upon hostile behavior and these deeds granting negative reputation, guards attacking, potential incarceration and the need to pay off your debt, escape, or simply serve your time.
The ability to do things...but potential repercussions, that's what I like. Sure, you can attack and kill someone in the town...but by doing so, you may be killed by the guards or even potentially teleported by a sort of "Mage" guard to a jail where you're forced to perform hard labor for a period of time that reflects your crime. I can easily see something like this working...but it would be rather complex.
I've a heart of pure black jade, beating forth the ebon ink of shattered dreams. So spread those thighs my darlings, and let me hear those lustful screams... For twisting coils and silken strands, my venom coursing through your veins. It's my bliss you seek, to ease those troubled pains...
The only game I can think of that truely defines sandbox, is minecraft. But is a game like that truly a role playing game. No it isn't. A role playing game has a story, whether it be WoW, TSW, UO,AO,Vanguard, EvE, EQ, FFXI, ect, they all have a story, on one type you have a more guided tour through the story, like the EQ types. Or to a much lesser degree UO type, but nevertheless, both styles are what define the rpg genre set in mmo environment.
Some people enjoy the guided tour some people don't.
The only game I can think of that truely defines sandbox, is minecraft. But is a game like that truly a role playing game. No it isn't. A role playing game has a story, whether it be WoW, TSW, UO,AO,Vanguard, EvE, EQ, FFXI, ect, they all have a story, on one type you have a more guided tour through the story, like the EQ types. Or to a much lesser degree UO type, but nevertheless, both styles are what define the rpg genre set in mmo environment.
Some people enjoy the guided tour some people don't.
I'd say in a themepark, the game is telling you the story and you have little choice but to follow along, even if the narrative of the game gives you some choice at certain point how to proceed (which really can only happen is SP games although GW2 experiments with it a bit). Themepark MMOs are pretty much totally on rails.
In a sandbox, the world and its lore exist but you create your own story within that world. There is no goal which all players share. You have to decide yourself what your own "endgame" will be.
Originally posted by avaliceheart I actually don't know what the big difference is between these two? I did play some sandbox games, which I'm assuming are games that offer a lot of freedom to do whatevers.
To me a sandbox game means what you do in the game can permanently change the game world. There have not been all that many sandbox games by my definition. What EQ Next suggest it is going to do is a sandbox. If I go and kill 100 orcs in an area the orcs will move somewhere else, I have permanently changed how the world exists.
If a sandbox game has 10 servers, logging on to each server should result in a different experience than the others. If you basically have 10 copies of the same thing you have a theme park.
Originally posted by avaliceheart I actually don't know what the big difference is between these two? I did play some sandbox games, which I'm assuming are games that offer a lot of freedom to do whatevers.
To me a sandbox game means what you do in the game can permanently change the game world. There have not been all that many sandbox games by my definition. What EQ Next suggest it is going to do is a sandbox. If I go and kill 100 orcs in an area the orcs will move somewhere else, I have permanently changed how the world exists.
If a sandbox game has 10 servers, logging on to each server should result in a different experience than the others. If you basically have 10 copies of the same thing you have a theme park.
Thank you. This is the best expression of what I've been thinking for a while.
There's a really cool thread running here that explores the possibilities of permanent change, server variability, and the potential of different servers to develop into truly different worlds:
WoW has been the standard bearer for too long now, that it seems like Game Developers have forgotten that there were two types of successful games before WoW....
Ultima Online - the original sandbox if you will (My cup of Tea!)
and
Everquest - The game whose CD I actually flung out the window after a day of playing as I found it to be total and utter crap!
These two were both great games, and both appealed to different people and play styles neither being correct....
Everquest got followed by WoW.... A game that very smartly mixed some flash's of Ultima Online into it but yet kept its theam park roots.... This made it a juggernaut because some of us Sand Boxers could play it because it never limited our movement we could enter a zone we shouldn't have and quickly get eaten by mobs we had no business looking at but the freedom to travel was there.... And its popularity fueled the development fire to be mimicked and copied over and over again while
Ultima Online and the Sandbox Genre got forgot about .....
Even SWG Got turned into a theampark with the release of NGE and the cry for everyone to be Jedi's....
Prior to NGE was the last Great Sandbox adventure I have been allowed to play....
As Game Developers are not convinced that the Sandbox will make money! I for one know that it would I have been waiting for years now.... and while I wait I play games like Wurm Online hoping and praying that someday someone with Money will realease a REAL sandbox game with PVP Crafting the whole kabosh.... And no Eve and Darkfall do not live up to my expectations!!!
UO,Shadowbane,SWG,Darkfall,MO,Wurm Online,Secretworld,GW,GW2,PotBS,LotR,Atlantica Online,WWII Online,WoT,Battlestar Galactica,Planetside2,Perpetuum,Fallen Earth,Runescape,WoW,Eve,Xsylon,Dragon Prophet, Salem
Comments
That was really sad to read.
I know Pathfinder is promising to be a "themepark/sandbox hybrid" like you are saying. As far as how they actually implement it though, I have no clue.
I've always found that a lot of influence could be taken from single player sandbox games like GTA, Jak 2 + 3, and The Godfather. Where you have a story driven series of missions that you can hit in whatever order you want, and can take time off to just mess with the world and have fun. The Godfather, which I really liked had it where there were hundreds of enemy buisinesses and wharehouses owned by other families (factions) and you had to grudgingly take control of them. I think this sort of influence progression on the NPC world would be a sweet idea in an MMO.
As much as I enjoy both types of MMO, I have to say that my preference is for the Sandbox.
I guess for me it comes down to how much freedom and impact I can have or feel I have on a world versus how much fun and effort it is to do these things.
Sometimes I just feel like killing things.. So a theme park like... Oh I don't know, lets say Vindictus, is great fun. I'll just run around cutting a bloody swath through whatever dungeons I play that day.
Sometimes I want more. Whether it's building up or destroying empires. So I'll play EVE and deal with the consequences of my actions or the actions of others.
Wildstar is actually pretty interesting to me because it seeks to combine both the Theme park and the Sandbox. I'm curious to see how they will do this and how well it will play out. Cheap as I am, I might have to pick up Wildstar and pay for the subscription until I can start buying CREED with ease, if I enjoy the game. I'm especially interested in player built cities and that one PvP mode where clans build fortresses and weapons to fight against each other. The story also looks fairly interesting and on the dark comedy side of things which is always a plus.
Kingdom of Knights - Community Manager
Did it ever dawn on you that is was your fault someone stole your ore?
Try building a one room shack and put a crappy lock on the door. To much hand holding in mmos has created problems for you and many other players.
Take responsibility for the security of your ore and nails or go back to a themepark.
edit- I guarantee no vet of wurm gave a rats ass about your nails or ore. Sounds like to me you were squatting on someone property. If that was the case and you were squatting on my property or on the edge without asking nicely and discussing terms I wouldn't care about your nails and ore but I would kill you if you didn't understand and move along to another area.
Life IS Feudal
Not necessarily. It depends on what the content is and how it is used. To me, a large part of sandbox is the ability to make choices. Themeparks tend to lead people from one zone to another according to levels and there isn't a whole lot of choices. There may be a few different zones of the same level but once a player is beyond that level those zones are worthless for xp and if a person is below those levels those zones are frequently off limits or insta-death (although I must say GW2 was different on that since if one was above level the player's level was automatically adjusted). Themeparks are also often story driven. There is a beginning and an ending to the story.
A sandbox could potentially have as many quests/missions as a themepark or more, the question is are the quest required and do I have to do them in a certain order? If I can choose how, where, and when I develop my character; create my own storyline for my character; and determine how I'm going to react then have those choices effect me and the world around me then I'd consider that to be more sandbox than themepark.
Then there is also the hybrid. SWG, in it's pre-cu format, is an example of this (NGE became more themepark than sandbox). Although pre-CU was mainly sandbox in which players could determine the build of their character, group with any player no matter the amount of character development, and access content in any order they wanted (as long as they didn't mind dying quickly in some locations); there were areas in SWG known as "themeparks" : Jabba's, rebel, imperial. A player could take breaks from the "themeparks" to do other stuff but the quest in those "themeparks" had to be done in a certain order and completed in order to access certain buildings or parts of buildings.
It is possible to have a sandbox with lots of content just as, unfortunately, it is possible to have a theme park with very little content.
+1 Fail to grasp sandbox.
For me sandbox games should be like www.wurmonline.com only player created in game content. Truly hard core survival experience and freedom with as few boundaries as non game brakingly possible
You create you tools and with the tools you create and combine even more. Control teritory, crafting, trading, housing, terraforming or what the heck, destroy everything! Its all optional.
As soon as you start setting restrictions and leading towards developers goals, it becomes something else, themepark.
Free to live, Free to play!
Sandbox to themepark is a spectrum. No game is a pure sandbox or a pure themepark. There's subjectivity involved when labeling a game. Some features are more sandbox than others, but I can't think of any 1 single feature that MUST be present in a game to be called a sandbox. Some big sandbox features are in-depth crafting, the ability to change the world, the ability to play how you want (significantly different professions, not just "what type of fighter are you?", ow pvp, etc. You don't need any ONE of those features to be called a sandbox, but having them (and others that I haven't listed) make it that much more accurate to call a game a sandbox.
Basically, sandbox means less restriction.
Agreed.
Sandbox does not need to mean total freedom.
I would say in a deeper sence its the lack of developer made quests or storyline. Whereas you have to personaly invest time to find your motivation for staying, and a good sandbox game is developed around how freely you can go about any given goal. And what tools are at your disposal for doing so.
Free to live, Free to play!
A sandbox game is something similar to GTA5 where you can choose to do as you please in a huge, expansive world; where a player can do eceedingly more creative things than in a linear game.
In a themepark like Call of duty; you are on a strict path, that you follow and can't explore the game world or interact with it other than the strict linear experience allows.
If anything: people enjoy sandbox games more than their lInear counterparts; as evidence shown with GTA5"s $800,000 ,000 in 1 day.
MurderHerd
800,000? Nonono, More like 13 million copys dude. They made an estimate of 500 million dollars the first day of sales.
Mind boggling...
Free to live, Free to play!
I suppose that I enjoy the concept of a hybrid? I absolutely adore having as many options as possible within a fantasy environment restricted only by what makes sense to the lore of that game and doesn't actually break the game by permitting players to do it. For example, I adore world PVP where you can be attacked by anyone at any time...but I also like the idea of some towns frowning upon hostile behavior and these deeds granting negative reputation, guards attacking, potential incarceration and the need to pay off your debt, escape, or simply serve your time.
The ability to do things...but potential repercussions, that's what I like. Sure, you can attack and kill someone in the town...but by doing so, you may be killed by the guards or even potentially teleported by a sort of "Mage" guard to a jail where you're forced to perform hard labor for a period of time that reflects your crime. I can easily see something like this working...but it would be rather complex.
I've a heart of pure black jade, beating forth the ebon ink of shattered dreams. So spread those thighs my darlings, and let me hear those lustful screams... For twisting coils and silken strands, my venom coursing through your veins. It's my bliss you seek, to ease those troubled pains...
The only game I can think of that truely defines sandbox, is minecraft. But is a game like that truly a role playing game. No it isn't. A role playing game has a story, whether it be WoW, TSW, UO,AO,Vanguard, EvE, EQ, FFXI, ect, they all have a story, on one type you have a more guided tour through the story, like the EQ types. Or to a much lesser degree UO type, but nevertheless, both styles are what define the rpg genre set in mmo environment.
Some people enjoy the guided tour some people don't.
I'd say in a themepark, the game is telling you the story and you have little choice but to follow along, even if the narrative of the game gives you some choice at certain point how to proceed (which really can only happen is SP games although GW2 experiments with it a bit). Themepark MMOs are pretty much totally on rails.
In a sandbox, the world and its lore exist but you create your own story within that world. There is no goal which all players share. You have to decide yourself what your own "endgame" will be.
To me a sandbox game means what you do in the game can permanently change the game world. There have not been all that many sandbox games by my definition. What EQ Next suggest it is going to do is a sandbox. If I go and kill 100 orcs in an area the orcs will move somewhere else, I have permanently changed how the world exists.
If a sandbox game has 10 servers, logging on to each server should result in a different experience than the others. If you basically have 10 copies of the same thing you have a theme park.
Thank you. This is the best expression of what I've been thinking for a while.
There's a really cool thread running here that explores the possibilities of permanent change, server variability, and the potential of different servers to develop into truly different worlds:
http://www.eqnforum.com/threads/the-potential-for-unique-servers.877/
I found it a really cool read.
In EQN, would an Immersion server (high risk) interest you?
Vote here:
http://www.wepolls.com/p/20521024/Would-you-create-a-character-on-an-Immersion-Server-in-Everquest-Next-,-EQ-Next-(See-Blurb-below-for-proposed-server-rules.
WoW has been the standard bearer for too long now, that it seems like Game Developers have forgotten that there were two types of successful games before WoW....
Ultima Online - the original sandbox if you will (My cup of Tea!)
and
Everquest - The game whose CD I actually flung out the window after a day of playing as I found it to be total and utter crap!
These two were both great games, and both appealed to different people and play styles neither being correct....
Everquest got followed by WoW.... A game that very smartly mixed some flash's of Ultima Online into it but yet kept its theam park roots.... This made it a juggernaut because some of us Sand Boxers could play it because it never limited our movement we could enter a zone we shouldn't have and quickly get eaten by mobs we had no business looking at but the freedom to travel was there.... And its popularity fueled the development fire to be mimicked and copied over and over again while
Ultima Online and the Sandbox Genre got forgot about .....
Even SWG Got turned into a theampark with the release of NGE and the cry for everyone to be Jedi's....
Prior to NGE was the last Great Sandbox adventure I have been allowed to play....
As Game Developers are not convinced that the Sandbox will make money! I for one know that it would I have been waiting for years now.... and while I wait I play games like Wurm Online hoping and praying that someday someone with Money will realease a REAL sandbox game with PVP Crafting the whole kabosh.... And no Eve and Darkfall do not live up to my expectations!!!
UO,Shadowbane,SWG,Darkfall,MO,Wurm Online,Secretworld,GW,GW2,PotBS,LotR,Atlantica Online,WWII Online,WoT,Battlestar Galactica,Planetside2,Perpetuum,Fallen Earth,Runescape,WoW,Eve,Xsylon,Dragon Prophet, Salem